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Throne and Liberty further proves Ashes needs Factions

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Comments

  • NikbisNikbis Member, Alpha Two
    I didn't take time to read all the answers, but to respond to OP:
    With AoC, the point is to create our own factions I assume?
    If one major faction (read guild) arise, and will, it is up to the players to oppose resistance.
    Small groups gathering and scheming to grab territory from that major faction. Schems outside of the game, on Discord probably. Litterally politics.

    Now my question is: does AoC has enough systems, choices to be made by a major faction, that would upset enough players so they want to turn against and overthrow it?
    Players not liking each others may suffice, but it's light.

    In a game where we don't have to worry about food and shelter, I really wonder how it will play out.
    If I had to keep only one song, it would be this one.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCF2pson54s
  • KilionKilion Member, Alpha Two
    I think it would be worthwhile considering that this is still an Alpha Stage project and that if after the end of the Alpha it is possible for "Super Guilds" to dominate an entire server, it means that Intrepid allowed for that type of scenario to happen.

    That being said, I think its relevant to remember that it is unlikely that ALL servers are being dominated like that and switching servers is a perfectly legitimate action to take for a player who is not satisfied with the community culture of that particular server. And I am 100% sure that there will be VERY different server cultures.
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
  • Kilion wrote: »
    That being said, I think its relevant to remember that it is unlikely that ALL servers are being dominated like that and switching servers is a perfectly legitimate action to take for a player who is not satisfied with the community culture of that particular server. And I am 100% sure that there will be VERY different server cultures.

    This guy gets it. I bet the culture is not different across the map. EVE has one server and the culture, meta and tactics vary from zone to zone as players play differently.
  • GithalGithal Member
    Kilion wrote: »
    That being said, I think its relevant to remember that it is unlikely that ALL servers are being dominated like that and switching servers is a perfectly legitimate action to take for a player who is not satisfied with the community culture of that particular server. And I am 100% sure that there will be VERY different server cultures.

    This guy gets it. I bet the culture is not different across the map. EVE has one server and the culture, meta and tactics vary from zone to zone as players play differently.

    idk about culture and ect, But the Mentality of the players that join zerg groups is the same always. So except for cases where there is some irregular group in a server that change things, most servers should follow similar separation of the map between zergs
  • Githal wrote: »
    Kilion wrote: »
    That being said, I think its relevant to remember that it is unlikely that ALL servers are being dominated like that and switching servers is a perfectly legitimate action to take for a player who is not satisfied with the community culture of that particular server. And I am 100% sure that there will be VERY different server cultures.

    This guy gets it. I bet the culture is not different across the map. EVE has one server and the culture, meta and tactics vary from zone to zone as players play differently.

    idk about culture and ect, But the Mentality of the players that join zerg groups is the same always. So except for cases where there is some irregular group in a server that change things, most servers should follow similar separation of the map between zergs

    It comes down to how guilds fight. My group, we like pipebombing tactics, if we can make an optimal pipebomb tactic, we will use it.

    Pipebombing is what some on this thread would call "noob tactics" while some others might call it a war crime, but when you have 40 ppl and have to engage 400, pipebombing is the way to go. All it needs is a bait and zergs to " go go go".

    I'm pretty sure more upstanding members of the community will want their honorable 1v1 builds, but isn't a zerg composed by 40 people with 1v1 builds?
  • GithalGithal Member
    Githal wrote: »
    Kilion wrote: »
    That being said, I think its relevant to remember that it is unlikely that ALL servers are being dominated like that and switching servers is a perfectly legitimate action to take for a player who is not satisfied with the community culture of that particular server. And I am 100% sure that there will be VERY different server cultures.

    This guy gets it. I bet the culture is not different across the map. EVE has one server and the culture, meta and tactics vary from zone to zone as players play differently.

    idk about culture and ect, But the Mentality of the players that join zerg groups is the same always. So except for cases where there is some irregular group in a server that change things, most servers should follow similar separation of the map between zergs

    It comes down to how guilds fight. My group, we like pipebombing tactics, if we can make an optimal pipebomb tactic, we will use it.

    Pipebombing is what some on this thread would call "noob tactics" while some others might call it a war crime, but when you have 40 ppl and have to engage 400, pipebombing is the way to go. All it needs is a bait and zergs to " go go go".

    I'm pretty sure more upstanding members of the community will want their honorable 1v1 builds, but isn't a zerg composed by 40 people with 1v1 builds?

    40 ppl wont win against 400 no matter what tactics you use, if there are no scaling aoe's or friendly fire.

    Not sure why we talking about 1v1 builds. AOC will be group oriented game, and the Groups are composed of 8 players each. This means the general builds should be for 8v8.
  • iccericcer Member
    edited July 25
    Githal wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Githal wrote: »
    Dimitraeos wrote: »
    Githal wrote: »
    Dimitraeos wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »

    16 isn't a zerg. Its less than half of a raid.

    If that is the size you are thinking this.kind of thing is for, then I change my opinion from "it won't work" to "it won't work and it isn't needed".

    A zerg is 50 at a minimum. The 30 in the example above was enough to point out that it wouldn't work, but 30 is still less than a fill raid.

    If you have 8 and are going uo against 16, the appropriate solution is to get more people, not to expect the game to provide you with leverage

    And then we are back to square one and zergs remain the default instead of "hey we might be fewer, but if we are smart with our timing, positioning and abilities, we might have a fighting chance."

    And my example using numbers could be literally any number. I think in a scenario where its 2:1 numerical disadvantate, the only solutions should be "just get more". It should be A solution, sure, but not the only one. Thats boring. Something where you could leverage a handful of powerful AoEs + surprise + terrain/geography would be more interesting.

    Literally saying "just get more" is the logic of the zerg/deathball.

    I have had situations in WOW back in the days when i was playing it (Wotlk expansion) where in arena my partner disconnects at start of fight, and i win 1v2 (well they were 2 dps, no healers, but still both had better gear than me), and these fights are 1 of the most interesting things that can happen when you have chance even in 1v2

    I played arena competitively in wotlk as well, I remember. But this is about zergs. I dont think there are *enough* counters to zerging/deathballing (yet) other than "just bring more".

    Yep they need to introduce either friendly fire. For example any group of 8 has friendly fire toward any other group no matter if they are from same guild.

    Or some mass spells that oneshot zergs

    Like the friendly fire wont apply in Node/guild wars, in sieges, between non combatant flagged players
    So if you want to do world boss you can be non combatants, and face the boss as 5 groups, but if you want to kill some other group there, then you will be combatant and friendly fire will apply

    just drag the "Deathball" into a choke point and throw all your groups AoE ontop of them at once if games do aoe properly it kinda demolishes the entire deathball, all that need to be done there is no aoe caps and no mass raid healing

    Obviously you never fought a zerg group before, or if you did - you were in another zerg group (maybe even bigger)

    Obviously you haven't played a game similar to this. I'd suggest you try Archeage if you haven't, but, well, it's dead.

    Yes, many things like node sieges, world bosses, etc. will be zerg vs zerg. It's meant to be like that. It's not a bad thing, and it will be fun.
    It doesn't need to be one guild vs another necessarily either.

    Now in faction based games, you'd maybe have 1-2 big guilds on one side, and then same on the other, or if it isn't balanced, you'd have a pug raid from one faction, vs other faction. Another fun part is, you can have spies, or basically whole guilds that are working with the other faction.


    Yes, you need numbers to beat zergs, but you can be outnumbered 2 to 1, and still win. Tactics and strategy play a huge part. A well organized group that is able to follow commands will easily dismantle a pug raid 2 or 3 times the size.


    If you are afraid that zergs will just run around the map and kill anyone on their way, OUTSIDE of large events like sieges, world bosses, etc. then yes, it's a valid concern to bring up.
    They should be punished for it. Now whether the punishment will be the fact that they will mostly be wasting their time, the fact that other organized groups will be able to do other stuff and become more rich/powerful, while avoiding the zerg completely, something else, OR some system, that remains to be seen.

    If your only concern is that you need a zerg to beat a zerg, well, yes, and no. Like I said, if you have 50 man zerg on one side, you can beat it with 20-30 good and organized players.
    No, you probably cannot beat it with a 6 man party (unless you are fighting lower level players as max level group).
  • Githal wrote: »
    Githal wrote: »
    Kilion wrote: »
    That being said, I think its relevant to remember that it is unlikely that ALL servers are being dominated like that and switching servers is a perfectly legitimate action to take for a player who is not satisfied with the community culture of that particular server. And I am 100% sure that there will be VERY different server cultures.

    This guy gets it. I bet the culture is not different across the map. EVE has one server and the culture, meta and tactics vary from zone to zone as players play differently.

    idk about culture and ect, But the Mentality of the players that join zerg groups is the same always. So except for cases where there is some irregular group in a server that change things, most servers should follow similar separation of the map between zergs

    It comes down to how guilds fight. My group, we like pipebombing tactics, if we can make an optimal pipebomb tactic, we will use it.

    Pipebombing is what some on this thread would call "noob tactics" while some others might call it a war crime, but when you have 40 ppl and have to engage 400, pipebombing is the way to go. All it needs is a bait and zergs to " go go go".

    I'm pretty sure more upstanding members of the community will want their honorable 1v1 builds, but isn't a zerg composed by 40 people with 1v1 builds?

    40 ppl wont win against 400 no matter what tactics you use, if there are no scaling aoe's or friendly fire.

    Not sure why we talking about 1v1 builds. AOC will be group oriented game, and the Groups are composed of 8 players each. This means the general builds should be for 8v8.

    You never heard of Rooks and Kings in EVE?

    Does not matter if aoe is scaling. If a single player can output 100 dps even reduced in an aoe ability, and 40 people do that, that is 4000 DPS. Now if players have 8K hp, that is death within 2 seconds. All you need thrn is proper gear.

    Like a mage, on heavy armor, focusing Inteligence, Constitution and Mentality, putting on a Shield and Magical damage mainhand weapon and you got yourself a Pipebomber. They even showed the Magma Field spell which has an augment that makes you a mobile magma field. It's like papa Steven knows exactly a bait and 40 mages with Molotov cocktails is the cure for zergs.

    We done these things as far back as Lineage 2 , Star Wars Galaxies and Dark Age of Camelot. Even WoW has Goblin Sapper Charges. You missed that part too?


    Your lack of such tactical knowledge indicates you are either really young or prey.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Also, don't forget that zergs will not have good gear, due to how loot will work in Ashes. So you don't need insanely strong aoes to wipe them, because a smaller group would be stronger on average. And good tactics and skill will only multiply that.

    And as long as there's at least a few sources of similarly-powerful gear - those smaller groups will be able to get that good gear for all of their members way before zerg even comes close to the same stage of gearing.
  • GithalGithal Member
    edited July 25
    Githal wrote: »
    Githal wrote: »
    Kilion wrote: »
    That being said, I think its relevant to remember that it is unlikely that ALL servers are being dominated like that and switching servers is a perfectly legitimate action to take for a player who is not satisfied with the community culture of that particular server. And I am 100% sure that there will be VERY different server cultures.

    This guy gets it. I bet the culture is not different across the map. EVE has one server and the culture, meta and tactics vary from zone to zone as players play differently.

    idk about culture and ect, But the Mentality of the players that join zerg groups is the same always. So except for cases where there is some irregular group in a server that change things, most servers should follow similar separation of the map between zergs

    It comes down to how guilds fight. My group, we like pipebombing tactics, if we can make an optimal pipebomb tactic, we will use it.

    Pipebombing is what some on this thread would call "noob tactics" while some others might call it a war crime, but when you have 40 ppl and have to engage 400, pipebombing is the way to go. All it needs is a bait and zergs to " go go go".

    I'm pretty sure more upstanding members of the community will want their honorable 1v1 builds, but isn't a zerg composed by 40 people with 1v1 builds?

    40 ppl wont win against 400 no matter what tactics you use, if there are no scaling aoe's or friendly fire.

    Not sure why we talking about 1v1 builds. AOC will be group oriented game, and the Groups are composed of 8 players each. This means the general builds should be for 8v8.

    You never heard of Rooks and Kings in EVE?

    Does not matter if aoe is scaling. If a single player can output 100 dps even reduced in an aoe ability, and 40 people do that, that is 4000 DPS. Now if players have 8K hp, that is death within 2 seconds. All you need thrn is proper gear.

    Like a mage, on heavy armor, focusing Inteligence, Constitution and Mentality, putting on a Shield and Magical damage mainhand weapon and you got yourself a Pipebomber. They even showed the Magma Field spell which has an augment that makes you a mobile magma field. It's like papa Steven knows exactly a bait and 40 mages with Molotov cocktails is the cure for zergs.

    We done these things as far back as Lineage 2 , Star Wars Galaxies and Dark Age of Camelot. Even WoW has Goblin Sapper Charges. You missed that part too?


    Your lack of such tactical knowledge indicates you are either really young or prey.

    The part where you have no experience with dealing with zergs is obvious from what you write. But even your theorycrafting needs a lot more work to make it believable. You talking about dps output as if you fighting practice dummies. Even if you kill 50 players out of the 400 with those mass spells you talk about you still have 350 players left to deal with. Or maybe you suggesting the AOE range of the spells to be bigger than the whole screen? since 400 man zergs wont fit on your screen.

    And so far from what i saw in AOC the mass spells wont hit even 5% of the zerg. maybe the mage spell that is cast around him may hit half the zerg, but you need to be in the middle of the zerg to do this since the spells is casted around you. (now you will say: 40 mages blink in the middle of the zerg and use hte mass spell and gg :D). Coz ranger also lacks mass spells that will do the job, and the rest are melee dps which have not a chance.

    Also 2 seconds is more than enough for a player to react and use some defensive cds, And when you include that the zerg will have a lot healers, you should make it at least 4 seconds needed to kill particular area of the zerg with mass spells. And for 4 seconds is enough for the zerg to kill you all.

    Not to mention that the zerg group will have rogues scouting the area around them. So your little surprise attack would fail before it even begin.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Githal wrote: »
    The part where you have no experience with dealing with zergs is obvious from what you write. But even your theorycrafting needs a lot more work to make it believable. You talking about dps output as if you fighting practice dummies. Even if you kill 50 players out of the 400 with those mass spells you talk about you still have 350 players left to deal with. Or maybe you suggesting the AOE range of the spells to be bigger than the whole screen? since 400 man zergs wont fit on your screen.
    Here's a single group baiting and dragging a zerg over a tight location, picking off people here and there.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SYNbR-mvfU

    Even just a single another group on the other side would chip away at that zerg overtime. A few more groups on either side (still nowhere near the 170 members of the enemy side) would increase the chances of winning even higher.

    And this was in a game with TPs to this location (as shown right at the start of the video). Ashes won't have TPs, so a proper baiting group can dismantle a zerg with time.

    And L2's aoes didn't even have proper long range, so this was mostly a single target picking off situation (with a few ground-placed big cd aoes). If Ashes has even just a few longer range or longer duration ground-placed aoes - it would make the situation even easier for the small group.
  • Solid_SneakSolid_Sneak Member
    edited July 25
    This is why you are prey. You are a zergling going " go go go". You lack patience, you lack doctrines to fall back to. You cannot even fathom the idea of hit and run. You think we have not have the scenario you describe? You think people react as fast as 2 seconds? Ever been to a raid in any MMO? People die to telegraphed mechanics.

    What will happen is 50 people get melted instantly, then 100 more "go go go " zerglings fall in and die cause half thrir hp melts and they panic, and that is when the rest fall in, and at that point you have CC in place to make thrm panic even more. By the time strugglers are left stsnding they just run away. It's called pipebombing cause it's a terror tactic irl.

    You lack the patience for tactics. You just want a brawl and like all prey you HATE being prey. But do not call pipebombing theorycrafting, it's a well known tactic. Look it up on youtube.

    Zergs will be farmed. And in order for we pipebombers to shine, large megs alliances need to exist.
  • GithalGithal Member
    Githal wrote: »
    The part where you have no experience with dealing with zergs is obvious from what you write. But even your theorycrafting needs a lot more work to make it believable. You talking about dps output as if you fighting practice dummies. Even if you kill 50 players out of the 400 with those mass spells you talk about you still have 350 players left to deal with. Or maybe you suggesting the AOE range of the spells to be bigger than the whole screen? since 400 man zergs wont fit on your screen.
    Here's a single group baiting and dragging a zerg over a tight location, picking off people here and there.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SYNbR-mvfU

    Even just a single another group on the other side would chip away at that zerg overtime. A few more groups on either side (still nowhere near the 170 members of the enemy side) would increase the chances of winning even higher.

    And this was in a game with TPs to this location (as shown right at the start of the video). Ashes won't have TPs, so a proper baiting group can dismantle a zerg with time.

    And L2's aoes didn't even have proper long range, so this was mostly a single target picking off situation (with a few ground-placed big cd aoes). If Ashes has even just a few longer range or longer duration ground-placed aoes - it would make the situation even easier for the small group.

    The small group killed like 20 players total. Which is nothing for the zerg group. ANd you talking about "winning"
  • Githal wrote: »
    The part where you have no experience with dealing with zergs is obvious from what you write. But even your theorycrafting needs a lot more work to make it believable. You talking about dps output as if you fighting practice dummies. Even if you kill 50 players out of the 400 with those mass spells you talk about you still have 350 players left to deal with. Or maybe you suggesting the AOE range of the spells to be bigger than the whole screen? since 400 man zergs wont fit on your screen.
    Here's a single group baiting and dragging a zerg over a tight location, picking off people here and there.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SYNbR-mvfU

    Even just a single another group on the other side would chip away at that zerg overtime. A few more groups on either side (still nowhere near the 170 members of the enemy side) would increase the chances of winning even higher.

    And this was in a game with TPs to this location (as shown right at the start of the video). Ashes won't have TPs, so a proper baiting group can dismantle a zerg with time.

    And L2's aoes didn't even have proper long range, so this was mostly a single target picking off situation (with a few ground-placed big cd aoes). If Ashes has even just a few longer range or longer duration ground-placed aoes - it would make the situation even easier for the small group.

    My man knows what's up with Spellhowlers.
  • GithalGithal Member
    edited July 25
    Githal wrote: »
    The part where you have no experience with dealing with zergs is obvious from what you write. But even your theorycrafting needs a lot more work to make it believable. You talking about dps output as if you fighting practice dummies. Even if you kill 50 players out of the 400 with those mass spells you talk about you still have 350 players left to deal with. Or maybe you suggesting the AOE range of the spells to be bigger than the whole screen? since 400 man zergs wont fit on your screen.
    Here's a single group baiting and dragging a zerg over a tight location, picking off people here and there.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SYNbR-mvfU

    Even just a single another group on the other side would chip away at that zerg overtime. A few more groups on either side (still nowhere near the 170 members of the enemy side) would increase the chances of winning even higher.

    And this was in a game with TPs to this location (as shown right at the start of the video). Ashes won't have TPs, so a proper baiting group can dismantle a zerg with time.

    And L2's aoes didn't even have proper long range, so this was mostly a single target picking off situation (with a few ground-placed big cd aoes). If Ashes has even just a few longer range or longer duration ground-placed aoes - it would make the situation even easier for the small group.

    My man knows what's up with Spellhowlers.

    You are watching unorganized zerg that few players chasing while the rest "listens to commands to wait probably", and those that dont listen get themselves killed. In the end the zerg didnt lose almost anything. few deaths is nothing for the zerg. Also imagine now if there were 40 rogues in the zerg group which move behind you and the moment you try to escape they just slow/stun and even kill half your group just from the rogues. And give the chance for the zerg to catch up to you

    From the look of it - the zerg group wasnt even interested in killing your small group. In the end they decided to kill you, but before this the group as a whole was not chasing you.

    And that as not even a big Zerg group, It says 170 players but there werent even 100 there. Imagine a 300 man guild + 2 alliances x 300 players for total of 900 players zerg.
  • Githal wrote: »
    Githal wrote: »
    The part where you have no experience with dealing with zergs is obvious from what you write. But even your theorycrafting needs a lot more work to make it believable. You talking about dps output as if you fighting practice dummies. Even if you kill 50 players out of the 400 with those mass spells you talk about you still have 350 players left to deal with. Or maybe you suggesting the AOE range of the spells to be bigger than the whole screen? since 400 man zergs wont fit on your screen.
    Here's a single group baiting and dragging a zerg over a tight location, picking off people here and there.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SYNbR-mvfU

    Even just a single another group on the other side would chip away at that zerg overtime. A few more groups on either side (still nowhere near the 170 members of the enemy side) would increase the chances of winning even higher.

    And this was in a game with TPs to this location (as shown right at the start of the video). Ashes won't have TPs, so a proper baiting group can dismantle a zerg with time.

    And L2's aoes didn't even have proper long range, so this was mostly a single target picking off situation (with a few ground-placed big cd aoes). If Ashes has even just a few longer range or longer duration ground-placed aoes - it would make the situation even easier for the small group.

    My man knows what's up with Spellhowlers.

    You are watching unorganized zerg that few players chasing while the rest "listens to commands to wait probably", and those that dont listen get themselves killed. In the end the zerg didnt lose almost anything. few deaths is nothing for the zerg. Also imagine now if there were 40 rogues in the zerg group which move behind you and the moment you try to escape they just slow/stun and even kill half your group just from the rogues. And give the chance for the zerg to catch up to you

    Btw, that tactic on the video, you did not even realise the leader was calling names for prime target and when they had none, they primed left to right, furthest to closest. Germans are very serious about their war tactics - ask France.

    It is a good doctrine. It takes experience and good players to use it - not zerglings.
  • GalaturcGalaturc Member, Alpha Two
    While it's true that some games without static faction systems have failed, it's not accurate to attribute their failure solely to the presence or absence of factions. Many games with factions have also failed. (WoW's success is unique and, arguably, not just because it had two factions).

    I like that guilds have risen and fallen like empires in those games with no factions, creating unique and dynamic histories per server. Yes, some servers experienced being dominated by one mega-guild, but it's very rare that these guilds survive for too long before collapsing into several smaller ones. Even so, some game mechanics could limit the effects of such dominance without needing an artificial system of factions. Why not let every server in AoC have its fluid history that represents this kind of organic change?

    If implemented correctly, a system without fixed factions can work just fine. The challenge goes beyond simply having factions or not; it lies in deeper game design elements that encourage balanced and engaging gameplay.
  • GithalGithal Member
    Githal wrote: »
    Githal wrote: »
    The part where you have no experience with dealing with zergs is obvious from what you write. But even your theorycrafting needs a lot more work to make it believable. You talking about dps output as if you fighting practice dummies. Even if you kill 50 players out of the 400 with those mass spells you talk about you still have 350 players left to deal with. Or maybe you suggesting the AOE range of the spells to be bigger than the whole screen? since 400 man zergs wont fit on your screen.
    Here's a single group baiting and dragging a zerg over a tight location, picking off people here and there.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SYNbR-mvfU

    Even just a single another group on the other side would chip away at that zerg overtime. A few more groups on either side (still nowhere near the 170 members of the enemy side) would increase the chances of winning even higher.

    And this was in a game with TPs to this location (as shown right at the start of the video). Ashes won't have TPs, so a proper baiting group can dismantle a zerg with time.

    And L2's aoes didn't even have proper long range, so this was mostly a single target picking off situation (with a few ground-placed big cd aoes). If Ashes has even just a few longer range or longer duration ground-placed aoes - it would make the situation even easier for the small group.

    My man knows what's up with Spellhowlers.

    You are watching unorganized zerg that few players chasing while the rest "listens to commands to wait probably", and those that dont listen get themselves killed. In the end the zerg didnt lose almost anything. few deaths is nothing for the zerg. Also imagine now if there were 40 rogues in the zerg group which move behind you and the moment you try to escape they just slow/stun and even kill half your group just from the rogues. And give the chance for the zerg to catch up to you

    Btw, that tactic on the video, you did not even realise the leader was calling names for prime target and when they had none, they primed left to right, furthest to closest. Germans are very serious about their war tactics - ask France.

    It is a good doctrine. It takes experience and good players to use it - not zerglings.

    Well didnt heard the callinf from the music probably :D:D:D. Anyway it made no difference. You cant be talking about "winning" against the zerg, when you didnt kill more than 5% of it.
  • GithalGithal Member
    edited July 25
    As i Said above - instead all this BS of aoe spells.

    Just make each group of 8 players to have "friendly fire" to any other group even if they are in same guild. This wont apply if the players are Non combatants, but if they want to pvp they become combatants and can hit each other. And this wont apply for guild/node wars and sieges, Simple and effective solution.
  • Githal wrote: »
    Githal wrote: »
    Githal wrote: »
    The part where you have no experience with dealing with zergs is obvious from what you write. But even your theorycrafting needs a lot more work to make it believable. You talking about dps output as if you fighting practice dummies. Even if you kill 50 players out of the 400 with those mass spells you talk about you still have 350 players left to deal with. Or maybe you suggesting the AOE range of the spells to be bigger than the whole screen? since 400 man zergs wont fit on your screen.
    Here's a single group baiting and dragging a zerg over a tight location, picking off people here and there.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SYNbR-mvfU

    Even just a single another group on the other side would chip away at that zerg overtime. A few more groups on either side (still nowhere near the 170 members of the enemy side) would increase the chances of winning even higher.

    And this was in a game with TPs to this location (as shown right at the start of the video). Ashes won't have TPs, so a proper baiting group can dismantle a zerg with time.

    And L2's aoes didn't even have proper long range, so this was mostly a single target picking off situation (with a few ground-placed big cd aoes). If Ashes has even just a few longer range or longer duration ground-placed aoes - it would make the situation even easier for the small group.

    My man knows what's up with Spellhowlers.

    You are watching unorganized zerg that few players chasing while the rest "listens to commands to wait probably", and those that dont listen get themselves killed. In the end the zerg didnt lose almost anything. few deaths is nothing for the zerg. Also imagine now if there were 40 rogues in the zerg group which move behind you and the moment you try to escape they just slow/stun and even kill half your group just from the rogues. And give the chance for the zerg to catch up to you

    Btw, that tactic on the video, you did not even realise the leader was calling names for prime target and when they had none, they primed left to right, furthest to closest. Germans are very serious about their war tactics - ask France.

    It is a good doctrine. It takes experience and good players to use it - not zerglings.

    Well didnt heard the callinf from the music probably :D:D:D. Anyway it made no difference. You cant be talking about "winning" against the zerg, when you didnt kill more than 5% of it.

    They delayed them and had a good fight in a 1vX. I would not expect a zergling to know the thrill of 1vX.
  • GithalGithal Member
    Githal wrote: »
    Githal wrote: »
    Githal wrote: »
    The part where you have no experience with dealing with zergs is obvious from what you write. But even your theorycrafting needs a lot more work to make it believable. You talking about dps output as if you fighting practice dummies. Even if you kill 50 players out of the 400 with those mass spells you talk about you still have 350 players left to deal with. Or maybe you suggesting the AOE range of the spells to be bigger than the whole screen? since 400 man zergs wont fit on your screen.
    Here's a single group baiting and dragging a zerg over a tight location, picking off people here and there.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SYNbR-mvfU

    Even just a single another group on the other side would chip away at that zerg overtime. A few more groups on either side (still nowhere near the 170 members of the enemy side) would increase the chances of winning even higher.

    And this was in a game with TPs to this location (as shown right at the start of the video). Ashes won't have TPs, so a proper baiting group can dismantle a zerg with time.

    And L2's aoes didn't even have proper long range, so this was mostly a single target picking off situation (with a few ground-placed big cd aoes). If Ashes has even just a few longer range or longer duration ground-placed aoes - it would make the situation even easier for the small group.

    My man knows what's up with Spellhowlers.

    You are watching unorganized zerg that few players chasing while the rest "listens to commands to wait probably", and those that dont listen get themselves killed. In the end the zerg didnt lose almost anything. few deaths is nothing for the zerg. Also imagine now if there were 40 rogues in the zerg group which move behind you and the moment you try to escape they just slow/stun and even kill half your group just from the rogues. And give the chance for the zerg to catch up to you

    Btw, that tactic on the video, you did not even realise the leader was calling names for prime target and when they had none, they primed left to right, furthest to closest. Germans are very serious about their war tactics - ask France.

    It is a good doctrine. It takes experience and good players to use it - not zerglings.

    Well didnt heard the callinf from the music probably :D:D:D. Anyway it made no difference. You cant be talking about "winning" against the zerg, when you didnt kill more than 5% of it.

    They delayed them and had a good fight in a 1vX. I would not expect a zergling to know the thrill of 1vX.

    Well, with this i agree, Even tho the zerg was not even paying them any attention, There was part of the zerg that got delayed. And yes - they put good fight. But wasnt the conversation about beating a zerg? coz if it was about delaying a zerg then i would agree that its possible.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Githal wrote: »
    The small group killed like 20 players total. Which is nothing for the zerg group. ANd you talking about "winning"
    Did you read the rest of my comment? This was simply an example of a battle tactic and I literally said that there could've been a way to win this, rather than just have some fun for the MCs of that video.

    This was a 1:10 fight (if we go with your disbelief of the numbers presented in the video) and the "1" side managed to kill "2" of the "10".

    And all of this was happening to hold back the zerg from farming an important boss, which would be even more effective in Ashes, because regrouping of the zerg would've taken way longer than the simple TP of L2.

    Again, extrapolate the tactic to what Ashes will have, rather than just nitpick the example. The potential 400-500 zergs of Ashes would be fighting groups of ~100, and if those 100 will use these kinds of tactics - the zerg will fall quite quickly.

    This is also why I said that 40 people is nothing in Ashes, and that fights will be "huge vs ginormous" rather than "1 group is fighting 2-3". One of the slogans of Ashes was "bringing massive back to mmos". That's its draw to its target audience.

    p.s. I still hold the position that heals and buffs must only be party-based, rather than raid-wide (let alone guild/alliance), so simple zergs would be even weaker. And if a zerg can get proper parties, which can then play in good coordination - they simply deserve what they get, because they are no longer a "zerg", they are just a big group of skilled players.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Githal wrote: »
    And this wont apply for guild/node wars and sieges, Simple and effective solution.
    Having no friendly fire in guild wars defeats the purpose of adding it, because majority of pve contests will most likely be happening during guild wars (at the very least that's what I'd use wars for).

    Also, there already is friendly fire, as long as the zerg is trying to be more effective and splits its numbers into a ton of subguilds rather than have them all in one guild. And if they DO have them all in one guild - each individual character is weaker for it, which plays into the stuff I said before (smaller groups being better geared and stronger than the zerg, and all that).
  • Solid_SneakSolid_Sneak Member
    edited July 25
    Githal wrote: »
    As i Said above - instead all this BS of aoe spells.

    Just make each group of 8 players to have "friendly fire" to any other group even if they are in same guild. This wont apply if the players are Non combatants, but if they want to pvp they become combatants and can hit each other. And this wont apply for guild/node wars and sieges, Simple and effective solution.

    EVE has friendly fire. Let me break down my earlier fire mage aoe example.

    You get fire resistance enchantments and potions. I did mention an Int/Con/Mnt build. Mentality is the magic resistance stat. Most zergs just have people with STR/DEX builds, if I can judge by L2, the closest game in stats to Ashes.

    The enemy does not expect a pipebombing, so they lack fire resistance.

    Best part, mages have 3 different spells already that work for pipebombing. And people cannot prepare for every single pipebombing scenario.

    You really don't get it. We 1vX people LIVE for farming zergs. You see a zerg, you whine, we see a zerg and get a boner. There is no amount of friendly fire that will stop it.
  • GithalGithal Member
    Githal wrote: »
    The small group killed like 20 players total. Which is nothing for the zerg group. ANd you talking about "winning"
    Did you read the rest of my comment? This was simply an example of a battle tactic and I literally said that there could've been a way to win this, rather than just have some fun for the MCs of that video.

    This was a 1:10 fight (if we go with your disbelief of the numbers presented in the video) and the "1" side managed to kill "2" of the "10".

    And all of this was happening to hold back the zerg from farming an important boss, which would be even more effective in Ashes, because regrouping of the zerg would've taken way longer than the simple TP of L2.

    Again, extrapolate the tactic to what Ashes will have, rather than just nitpick the example. The potential 400-500 zergs of Ashes would be fighting groups of ~100, and if those 100 will use these kinds of tactics - the zerg will fall quite quickly.

    This is also why I said that 40 people is nothing in Ashes, and that fights will be "huge vs ginormous" rather than "1 group is fighting 2-3". One of the slogans of Ashes was "bringing massive back to mmos". That's its draw to its target audience.

    p.s. I still hold the position that heals and buffs must only be party-based, rather than raid-wide (let alone guild/alliance), so simple zergs would be even weaker. And if a zerg can get proper parties, which can then play in good coordination - they simply deserve what they get, because they are no longer a "zerg", they are just a big group of skilled players.

    The thing is that in the video the zerg was paying no attention to the 9 players. They were ignoring them while doing the boss. And only small part of the zerg splitted to chase the 9 players, and thats why they managed to make some kills. In the end the zerg killed the boss and just ran over the group.

    And you call it a "fight", but in reality the zerg got the boss, and the small group got nothing.

    100 vs 400 cant use these tactics coz
    first: the zerg group wont ignore the 100
    Second: you cant organize the 100 the same way you organize the 9, You will lose 50 players from the start coz they wont retreat on time or will go too deep and ect
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Githal wrote: »
    Well, with this i agree, Even tho the zerg was not even paying them any attention, There was part of the zerg that got delayed. And yes - they put good fight. But wasnt the conversation about beating a zerg? coz if it was about delaying a zerg then i would agree that its possible.
    Winning is also relative. Delaying an entire zerg until more of your peeps come can be considered a win for a singular party vs a zerg, because the main goal is to not let the zerg get to the content.

    But yes, I don't expect singular groups to "win" against full zergs. I think the lowest ration should be ~1:3, so if the zerg is ~450, then ~150 should be the number that can beat it with better skill and tactics.
  • GithalGithal Member
    edited July 25
    Githal wrote: »
    As i Said above - instead all this BS of aoe spells.

    Just make each group of 8 players to have "friendly fire" to any other group even if they are in same guild. This wont apply if the players are Non combatants, but if they want to pvp they become combatants and can hit each other. And this wont apply for guild/node wars and sieges, Simple and effective solution.

    EVE has friendly fire. Let me break down my earlier fire mage aoe example.

    You get fire resistance enchantments and potions. I did mention an Int/Con/Mnt build. Mentality is the magic resistance stat. Most zergs just have people with STR/DEX builds, if I can judge by L2, the closest game in stats to Ashes.

    The enemy does not expect a pipebombing, so they lack fire resistance.

    Best part, mages have 3 different spells already that work for pipebombing. And people cannot prepare for every single pipebombing scenario.

    You really don't get it. We 1vX people LIVE for farming zergs. You see a zerg, you whine, we see a zerg and get a boner. There is no amount of friendly fire that will stop it.

    Which 3 spells you talking about? Coz non will hit more than 3% of the zerg players with single cast

    You have:
    * orb that has slow travel time and easy to be racted to
    * the frost aoe that is cast in front of the mage, Which you need to go almost melee range to the zerg to use
    * the aoe that is cast in 360 degrees around you, which will require you to be in the middle of the zerg to use
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Githal wrote: »
    The thing is that in the video the zerg was paying no attention to the 9 players. They were ignoring them while doing the boss. And only small part of the zerg splitted to chase the 9 players, and thats why they managed to make some kills. In the end the zerg killed the boss and just ran over the group.

    And you call it a "fight", but in reality the zerg got the boss, and the small group got nothing.
    They didn't get the boss in the video, cause they were still running around instead of fighting the boss (it's deeper in and in a room), but that's beside the point.

    In the context of Ashes, the boss would have anti-zerg mechanics that prevents the zerg from simply one-shotting it (well, hopefully it does of course). And quite likely even just a single group from the enemy can disturb the farm.

    But that part is definitely most debatable, cause we haven't seen any proper pve yet.
    Githal wrote: »
    100 vs 400 cant use these tactics coz
    first: the zerg group wont ignore the 100
    Second: you cant organize the 100 the same way you organize the 9, You will lose 50 players from the start coz they wont retreat on time or will go too deep and ect
    If the side with 100 people can't control them - that's on them and they deserve to lose. If I, as a fairly shitty tactician and leader, could control 200 people during a siege and lead their movements in a coordinated manner - any better leader would (and I know for sure that some HAVE) control their group to a much greater extent.

    100 people is only 12 parties. Again, that's is barely even a big group. Anyone who hasn't played stuff like L2, where "zerg" began at 200++, wouldn't understand what it takes to control several groups that are playing in unison.

    And if you have experienced those scales, yet you are still saying that 100 people can't be coordinated - I can only feel sorry for your experience, because you haven't ever met a good leader.
  • Solid_SneakSolid_Sneak Member
    edited July 25
    Githal wrote: »
    Githal wrote: »
    As i Said above - instead all this BS of aoe spells.

    Just make each group of 8 players to have "friendly fire" to any other group even if they are in same guild. This wont apply if the players are Non combatants, but if they want to pvp they become combatants and can hit each other. And this wont apply for guild/node wars and sieges, Simple and effective solution.

    EVE has friendly fire. Let me break down my earlier fire mage aoe example.

    You get fire resistance enchantments and potions. I did mention an Int/Con/Mnt build. Mentality is the magic resistance stat. Most zergs just have people with STR/DEX builds, if I can judge by L2, the closest game in stats to Ashes.

    The enemy does not expect a pipebombing, so they lack fire resistance.

    Best part, mages have 3 different spells already that work for pipebombing. And people cannot prepare for every single pipebombing scenario.

    You really don't get it. We 1vX people LIVE for farming zergs. You see a zerg, you whine, we see a zerg and get a boner. There is no amount of friendly fire that will stop it.

    Which 3 spells you talking about? Coz non will hit more than 3% of the zerg players with single cast

    Earthquake, Blizzard, Meteor , Magma Field

    It takes 2 tanks to throw a pair of bolas and the it's game over.

    You guys want friendly fire, like that will deter zergs or pipebombers. 🤷‍♂️
  • AszkalonAszkalon Member, Alpha Two
    oOKingOo wrote: »
    The only difference is that your node is the faction, and your faction is not a boring, stagnant, predefined entity.

    Exaaaactly. :sunglasses:


    And who says that there won't be " Factions " in the Game ? I bet every single Deity might have it's own Religion, Followers, Cults, Sects, whatever you name them.


    There might be Race-Factions as well. And HOPEFULLY - > also Factions who act and exist as Villains. Admiring and praying to the dark Gods known as "The Others" - and to the Ancients.


    WoW had the Twilight Hammer Cult, right ?

    Eldenring(lol) had the "Let Chaos take the World"-Folks.


    Who says every single Individual on the World of Verra will be a good Atta-Person ? And not a naughty Boy ? (lol) searching to gain corrupt Powers beyond Measurement and trying to stir up some crazy Era of Darkness and Violence ?
    And then there are the Ancients themselves. I would be shocked if they don't count as a Faction of Sorts.


    Even if we Players will have our Hands completely full with our Nodes and Alliances with (other) Guilds already : who says there will not be Factions around who have nothing to do with them ?
    a50whcz343yn.png
    ✓ Occasional Roleplayer
    ✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
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