I see two types of AOE abilities: "one time" and "persistent". One time AOE abilities are cast, they deal some damage and that is it. Persistent ones create a zone where damage is dealt each tick. I think that the one time aoe skills are completely fine for PVP as they serve the important role of discouraging enemies from clumping up and turtling up with aoe healing.
Persistent AOE on the other hand can be very dangerous in PVP as it doesn't just deal damage, it also serves as area denial. I played a few games (4Story was the worst offender) where persistent AOE was accessible to way too many meta classes so players could create an absolutely insane killing ground where nobody could go. Due to this fights devolved into WW1 style tug of war which is just boring when it happens every single time.
In Crowfall AOE abilities were limited in their maximum number of targets so they wouldn't be too powerful against large groups of players. The problem was that the optimal strategy against there skills was to clump up even more to spread the damage out through the entire raid instead of the abilities consistently hitting their intended amount of targets
And of course there is the problem with visual clarity as in large scale battles there are going to be tons of people casting tons of spells at the same time and coordinated groups are gonna choose a single place to nuke and obliterate everybody standing there. And you really don't want that to cause a flashbang.
I understand that some games just can't make challenging content whose AoE attacks are actually sensibly connected to their character models (again, discounting Mage type enemies, who can be done like the Poison Elder Dragon from A1 or the Twins, shown below for reminders)
As the person in our group that deals with adds, off tanking, and large area of effect damage this would normally be where I have a lot to say. Rewatching these fights after seeing Firebrand, however, reminds me just how much I was really prepared to play 'classic' AoC as it's being affectionately referred to. What an excellent example of how well done AoE effects and large scale combat can be done. I miss that poison dragon. I miss those eldritch nightmares. So much so, that I'm going to let my group leader handle the rest on this topic out of respect for the past development.
I would expect a longer animation wind up and shorter release state and visual effects as indications. Also green/red circles around the AoE area of impact, possibly togglable in the UI options. Sadly visual noise in the large fights is likely to prevent players ability to react to any threat based on animations and visual effects alone. Also it would be hard to distinguish between friendly and enemy AoEs otherwise.
I recommend giving players as much control as possible over what AOE visuals are displayed on their client. Different settings for 1) all AOE, 2) AOE that is actionable information on my character, 3) actionable on my party/raid, 4) PvP vs PvE combat, 5) other environments, such as ocean vs dungeon vs sieges vs caravans.
Just decide what information Intrepid would maximally allow players to access and then let the players cull visuals according to their preferences and desired performance. Those preference options should be as detailed as possible, as well.
I think in a modern large scale MMO, AoE attacks should be telegraphed in PvP, and in PvE. Imagine being in a large scale 100v100 fight. It will go one of two ways.
1. Players are incredibly frustrated because they are randomly being damaged and can't really comprehend what is happening due to the large amount of effects and players. Sure, they can make out some longer, more defined AoE attacks sometimes to avoid, but otherwise it is difficult for them.
2. Players are frustrated because enemy AoE attacks are telegraphed, and the entire battlefield floor is a some shade of flashing red because there are so many AoE attacks being used.
How do you balance this? I don't think it will be possible to please everyone, and I don't think it will be super possible to make it a very accessible user experience on either end of the spectrum.
An example of what I personally like is GW2, there are red shaded floor spots of Aoe attacks, and even an indicator of WHEN the damage will be done for certain attacks. This is really nice in PvE encounters, and also appreciated in PvP.
However, it can be more interesting than just red circles everywhere. AoE abilities can be telegraphed intuitively based on their effects. Like what if you are casting a meteor shower over 2s, the floor could start cracking, or the meteors could appear in the sky before actually falling to the ground and doing damage. This would be more interesting, and leave it to players to learn over time what AoE abilities look like before they actively affect you. Instant AoE's are harder to telegraph warnings about, but as they happen it can be tastefully done effects to make it obvious where it is hitting, or a well defined red polygon that shows the accurate area of effect.
Either way, I'm sure there is a sweet spot somewhere about this.
YES! Guild Wars 2 has done it perfectly-Even at mass fights.
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
Shouldn't be telegraphed a lot, when AoE is cast and it's like a trap, there should be just an ember or a wisp on the ground for a second and then it should disapear. Then AoE should only show up again when the trigger is activated, then just do one pulse or a flash and make it invisible again.
In AoC the effects got way better since last year, but they are still too slow for me, too large with thick lines and thick shapes and their flat animation speeds look like Powerpoint slideshows to me. Spell effects should be as fast as lightining and this will fix the clutter by a lot.
AoC effects are obese and move like a snail that can only move in the same speed from start to finish.
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
Clutter is a major issue, especially when both sides have the same spell effects and colors. In a large fight, it’s unclear whether you’re stepping into a blob of death or if nothing will happen at all.
I would introduce 9 different color schemes for spells and abilities and allow guilds with at least 40 members to create their own fully customizable color schemes. Alliances should also have their own schemes. For example, if a guild is role-playing as evil, they could change the color of lightning bolts to red or any color they choose, and similarly customize other spells and abilities. If in-game customization is too complex, a webpage could be provided where players submit profiles with the ID of each spell and the chosen RGB values. The next time players log in, they would download the new schemes. Customization shouldn’t be an everyday task, so managing it through a webpage and periodic downloads would be efficient.
With these color schemes in place, players could select their preferred scheme. When in a party, the party leader should be able to override everyone’s schemes and choose any scheme they want, including their own guild’s or alliance's scheme. Even if there are members from different guilds, they would use the leader’s chosen scheme for that party.
This approach would enhance visibility and communication during large battles, helping everyone understand which group is casting what and where. This is particularly important, as in past PvP streams, it was often unclear who was casting certain spells like magic walls.
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
No.
Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
No, since one dev just copies the other.
My take, you should be asking about other stuff too:
To be honest, I would stop creating so much effects for buffs, defensive spells and abilities and stuff like that, and I would just give everybody glowing eyes, the eyes would glow according to what is going on with them and I would have less spell and abilities effects. Aren't the eyes the window to the soul?
The AoC spell effect that resembles a massive cone of gold or orange light, which was used multiple times in the last stream, should have been removed from the game a long time ago. Plusits constant progression speed is a deal breaker for me. Instead, the glowing eyes/object system would update the eye effect to incorporate the same color (that gold/orange). If the eyes already have a different color effect, blend the new color with the existing one creating a third color. If there are no existing effects, the glow will be gold or orange for sure since there's nothing to add upon.
Glowing eyes, glowing earrings, glowing amulets and pendants, glowing ring, maybe even a jewel on your legendary weapon. If a weapon has a permanent effect and a jewel, than that jewel should always have the right glow for that kind of effect. Or maybe the jewel grants the effect and then you add to your gear. Incorporate these types of effects and let them carry most of the passive effects and buffs. Remove nearly all passive effects and buffs from other sources.
Adopting a more minimalist approach to effects will enhance their value. When effects are just a clutter of flying wisps, it greatly reduce their overall impact and significance
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are a common staple in MMORPG combat. We’re curious to know what your thoughts are on AoE abilities and the way they’re displayed.
- aoes should be low dmg to multiple people. aoe nukes that do 80% of health bars are bad.
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
-stronger spells that do more dmg with casting time or charge up time. if the caster has the extra benefit of increasing damage, i should have extra time to dodge. high risk high reward for the caster.
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
clear.. but taking into consideration zvz and gvg, they shouldnt be long lasting animations or the screen gets all full of crap. a short explosion or short lightning aoe effect is enough just so u know what u got hit with.
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
not really. seeing a aoe area or telegraph for a powerful aoe spell would help the tank pull in the mobs to the right place.
I think the primary issue point to focus on here with Ashes is the fidelity of AoEs. There are two sides to this issue. Either you use clear and concise circular and rectangular AoEs to ensure that the player can apply the maximum amount of skill during gameplay. Or, you allow beauty and creativity to take paramount.
In my opinion, Ashes should always go for the latter. It is clear that Ashes is building the MMORPG that we've always wanted. As Intrepid and us enjoyers often state, we're trying to follow the rules that the acronym set forth. Roleplaying game is the concept that I'm far more concerned with here.
"Realistically" Magic doesn't work in perfect circles, physical attacks don't work in perfect circles. Things are shaped to the caster's creativity, the shape of the weapon, the intention behind the maneuver. This means that the impact of AoEs should be fluid, have unique shapes, and challenge the player to use their skill in unconventional matters rather than simply reacting really fast to big bad red circle.
Does this sacrifice ease of development and visual clarity for the sake of cosmetic satisfaction and immersion? Absolutely, and I have no regrets. If people have conflicts with the concept of uniquely shaped AoEs in association with skill, clarity and creativity... Look no further than league of legends. Champs like Aatrox and Diana have incredibly unique interacts with the shape of their attacks. Although there is always reason to complain with Riot's capability to handle a game... I think they have created some absolutely gorgeous game interactions with some of the uniquity in AoEs.
Ashes of Creation should always be beauty, immersion, and fantasy first and foremost. There's no reason to think that gameplay must suffer to accommodate those things. Big bad red circle is horribly boring and overdone, we're here to push boundaries and make something unique, let's do that.
AoE Abilities and Display:
Mages imo rock AoEs, but every class should get in on the action. Its key to have super clear, ground indicators that aren’t blocked by terrain so everyone, even those on low settings, can see what’s happening and stay in the game.
Telegraphing AoEs in PvP:
Every AoE within a certain range should show up clearly for enemies, with the right shape on the ground (circle, cone, etc.). If an AoE sticks to the caster, the indicator should move with them. Fast-changing abilities might skip telegraphs but should be super rare.
AoE Visibility for Players:
Make the player’s own AoEs the most visible, followed by enemy AoEs, and then friendly ones. Ground indicators should be color-coded so you can easily spot what’s yours and what’s coming at you.
AoEs in PvE:
The priority stays the same: your own moves first, enemy AoEs second, and ally AoEs last. In PvE, especially in raids, enemy AoEs need to be super clear so players aren’t overloaded with info.
Examples from Other Games:
Guild Wars 2 nails AoE displays, especially for Staff Necromancers. Their AoEs are easy to spot and understand, making them a solid example to follow.
I'll just skip to 5
5. Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
I put about 3k hours in Albion Online to prepare for the type of PvX gameplay that will be present in AOC. The game has a very different style, more basic. But It makes AoEs VERY defined. It's simple style lends itself to this. But AoC could also benefit form this even though the graphics are much more complex. See this image.
Although this looks chaotic, after practice, I can see the two abilities the boss is using 1. Beam 2. Orb, the damage reduction AoE (Purple ring) and the cooldown reduction AoE (Faint tan Ring). I think the clear boundaries are very important or PvX games in particular because it raises the skill celling, which at the end of the day is the thing that keeps players coming back!
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ZekethephoenixMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Wildstar telegraphs or BDO animations are my top choices. Revise what worked or revolutionize.
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
Generally only persistant hard CC and massive damage nukes, and the Nukes should indicated by an epicenter marker NOT a ring telling you exactly where the safe zone is. Knowing the radius of common AoE attacks is relevent player skill and epicenter markers produce less visual clutter, all AoE damage effects should do diminished damage from the radius so any amount of dodging is worthwhile and players reactions are rewarded with proportional mitigation.
The casters character animation windup, and a visible moderate speed projectile lobbed at the target location should be all the indicator mid size damage spells like a fireball need. A player who wants to dodge that should keep their head up and look at the enemy NOT at their own feet for an indicator to be spoonfed to them.
Ground indicators circles have their place in single player games where bosses are dropping insta kill shots and predictive dodging is part of the intended gameplay. But if another player has a skill that is so deadly and wide that it needs that kind of indicator to let everyone dodge it then the ability probably needs a rework.
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
Their should be NO SUCH THING as a friendly AoE, it will always lead to a toxic lobbing of AoE's into melee and lead to mindless nuke fests in large group pvp. Friendly fire on all AoE effects even if it's not an equal amount of damage taken, due to the aformentioned radial dropoff will nessesitate real comunication and teamwork by AoE producing classes. If their is no difference in an AoE's effect becaue of who cast it, their would be no need to visually distinquish them and the whole nonsense of trying to do so is avoided. Likewise all persistent groud DoT type effects like burning etc are simple and universal and recognize no allegence to any player, so simply don't walk on the lava.
No, a PvX game should always seek to make the mechanics of vP and vE identical to the greatest extent possible. Raid bosses where massive damage and insta kill abilities are being dropped are the only places big ground indicators are appropriate. It is the nature of the ability being dropped not the setting that should dictate telegraphing.
Long answer: The primary concern regarding AoE visuals in a PvX game is readability. It should be obvious what abilities will deal damage to you and which won’t using ground overlays.
I’ll disagree with the few people saying their own AoEs should be the most distinct; you always know what your AoEs are doing, what’s important is what everyone else’s are doing.
High priority:
- NPC damage
- Non-ally player damage
Moderate priority:
- Enemy healing or buffs
- Ally buffs and synergistic AoEs
Low priority:
- your own AoEs
- your allies’ non-buff, non-synergistic AoEs
Things to deal with immediately, things to keep in mind but not pressing, and things you can generally ignore.
Those overlays should be in addition to the VFX, not in place of them, and should of course by customizable for color, vibrancy, and transparency depending on player preference and apply the same in both sorts of combat.
In general though for my feedback, please tone down these VFX on spells. They’re the worst visual clutter right now and make it hard to parse what’s actually going on. Not every basic cast needs a dramatic dance routine and fireworks to announce itself.
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Now as for the power concerns, AoE should never be competing with single-target damage potential. AoE’s primary purpose should be zone control and status effects.
Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are a common staple in MMORPG combat. We’re curious to know what your thoughts are on AoE abilities and the way they’re displayed.
I believe AoEs need to be properly balanced so they don't become the only useful way (and sometime an OP way) of dealing damage in most situations. For that to happen I believe they need to meet a few requirements:
. Have significantly less dps than single-target abilities. That way AoEs will trump single target only in large scale as they should
. Player collision in combat must be implemented properly to limit the amount of player an AoE can affect and not make it super OP in large scale
. Archetypes that specialize in AoEs can't have great survivability and mobility, they need to rely on the healer and tanks to keep them alive while they dish out huge amounts of damage in a large scale battle.
I also believe AoE zone of effect should be displayed trough skill vfx, and not generic circles on the ground that make the game ugly.
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
I would say either big abilities that dish a lot of damage, or hard ccs. I would hope though that this telegraphing happens trough skill VFX and character animation, rather than a red circle or similar like most modern mmos do it. Maybe the skill starts from the players position and travels forward, or the player goes trough a casting animation to make it clear the ability is coming.
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
I think the distinction should be there but subtle. Maybe the skill has a small color difference.
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
No, its pretty much the same.
Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
I think Valve does a great job with VFX in general. I would recommend dota 2 and most recently deadlock as good VFX examples
Love AoE mob train farming with a proper group composition. Downside is some classes are left out due to incompatability. Solution? Give those classes tools for better mob grinding in small group. 1 by 1 killing.
AoE in PvP is a terrible design. Reduce impact of AoE skills on players. Dont listen to any advice that says AoE is the enemy of the zergs. The zergs are always stronger with aoe tools. High mp, high CD, low dmg, cone only preferably.
Bring back skill to pvp.
AoE indicators. I like natural looking abilities. I hate red circles green circles and all that visual polution.
Flames on the floor? Dont walk there.
Blessed area on the floor? That's your friendly aoe.
A reminder to tone down colour explosions of every ability in the game for better understanding of what's going on the battlefield.
Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are a common staple in MMORPG combat. We’re curious to know what your thoughts are on AoE abilities and the way they’re displayed.
AoE generally has a cast TARGET, wait until cast(spell time), casted (aoe starts here to show who was hit), and then timed dot (unless its DD). I find this works well if its a 'cast on target'.
GTAOE or 'mouse targetted' aoe. Generally the same above or a 'pool' when spell time is shown on the ground. Usually I don't like this as it gives where the AoE will hit and takes away from the actual effectiveness of the AoE as people move away from the area.
What about point blank aoe's (PBAoE)? or cone aoe's (CAoE)? I am surprised they arent even mentioned here given the companies background in pvp/rvr.
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
If I see someone and other people nearby being aoe dd'ed, usually thats enough for someone to say to themselves, 'maybe its not a good area to stand or be at'. I find that a long term spell like a 'mes' in dark age of camelot works. You don't see the target have zzz's above the mesed persons head for more than 10 seconds and usually a person standing still tells me they are 'cced' already.
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
IMO, use a slash command such as /effects all, effects player, effects none, effects group, effects battleground or effects mob should be a thing. This would effect those who want options and don't want to ruin the eyes of everyone if it becomes too flashy. Make it customised!
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
Same thing as above. Sometimes I just do NOT need to see a target cc'ed or aoe'ed for the 500th time in a row. I know its expected at that point.
Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
Warhammer Online/Dark Age of Camelot.
DAoC 'hid' where the caster was going to aoe or dd until they were hit whereas it was pretty clear where a bright wizard or sorc was going to use the mouse over AoE (not targetted). I personally loved the DAoC style as you had no reason to see where the aoe was going to go until it hit until it did.
If AoC had some sort of class that 'sucked groups into the character', I'd say Warhammer Online would be a better choice as a tight group of players could easily obliterate the many.
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lunarskyMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
Not always. If the AOE ability has a persistent effect on the ground such as burning or slow then yes it should be displayed for enemies to see and avoid. It should not be visible when it is being targeted on the ground or if there is no lingering effect.
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
I don't think you need to do anything crazy here. A clear edge should be established via a lighter color or a simple ending of the effect (example: Vines stop existing outside of AoE space).
For beneficial effects, I would like to see a clear color distinction between good and bad effects. We saw this during the latest livesteam. The bard fire attack and the fire attacks of the elementals, mages etc were all the same orange color so if one is focused on the battle they may mix up what is helpful (or harmless) and what is actually damaging them. Beneficial Cleric, Bard, and Summoner spells need their own universal appearance to make it clear to players that's the good fire, light, water or whatever form the spell may take. As a future player of one of those classes I do not want my teammates getting confused and running away from my buffs/heals and wasting my CDs.
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
No, I think AoEs should largely function the same.
Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
GW2 is pretty on point for me. I'm not crazy about the white line showing the edge of the AoE but it's effective enough I suppose.
Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are a common staple in MMORPG combat. We’re curious to know what your thoughts are on AoE abilities and the way they’re displayed. As a general rule for MMO's/mass combat, clarity is king. You need to be able to distinguish your/ally skills from enemy skills at a glance. You don't always know not to stand in the fire if you don't will hurt you.
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies? Generally, I would say that stronger the skill, the more clear the telegraphing should be. Esp as things get crowded and hectic, you need to be able to parse the information and clearly understand what is a threat, and what isn't. It's not very fun to get blown up out of nowhere and not know why. Of course you also have to take into account latency.
From what I have seen from Alpha 1, the powerful skills all look appropriately over the top. This is in part to be clear for whom the skill is being used on, but also to make the person using it feel powerful. In this regard your on the right track. Skills should feel good to be used and have them be used on.
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players? Immediately. Personally I am a fan of the red ring of death. (or cones, lines, etc) Where you outline the area of effect with a bright red that is only ever used to show harmful effects. Naturally you'd want color blind modes, as well the ability to turn off such features if someone so wishes. But by default, it should be clear what will hurt you. Nor does it matter if it is a PvE or PvP threat.
You don't really need to call out friendly AOE's, as effectively anything that doesn't hurt you is friendly.
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting? In regards to UI elements, they should be universal. Animation on the other hand can be even more stark and clear, as your going to run into bosses with the ability to one shot you. And when you do, it needs to be made super clear.
When you get hit by something, it has to feel like it was your fault for not getting out of the way or paying attention. I would look to games like Monster Hunter or the Souls series for cues on clear animation telegraphing.
Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them! I think for UI elements, Guild Wars 2 is the gold standard. However to be clear, I am ONLY talking about the visuals and UI. Do not use their AOE mechanics that limit target numbers, because all that does is empower zergs. And I know you don't want to do that.
The AoE animations in Ashes of Creation are immersive, impactful and distinctive, although the degree to which they may cover target actions and movements can be questionable. Their actual impact on combat are diverse, interesting and well dispersed among various primary archetypes.
Regarding inclusion of some forewarning in the animations, in PvP shouldn't any impactful action be telegraphed? But that aside, most especially the actions with highest damage or CC effects should provide opportunity to block or evade. That being said, I always found red circles on the ground before AoE's hit tacky and unnecessary.
If under attack via an AoE, then it's relevant to know where it is and it's extent. Moreover, each AoE should be distinctive, recognizable in its own way.
Also important is the ability to distinguish friendly AoE's from enemy AoE's, otherwise the situation becomes confusing, misleading.
Final thought, I think it's good to have some AoE's in PvP that strike fear into opponent groups. Much as the way NPC attacks should be dangerous. Skill in dealing with such things reflects knowledge, coordination and sheer ability. (IMAO)
I pass on referencing other games for AoE examples, because Intrepid is doing a great job and in no way do I want to direct or limit your creativity or judgement!
xoxo
Casually Serious.
LFG: Open World, tight knit coordination, multiple roles, will travel.
When it comes to AoE indicators, answer is really simple-Transparent slightly burning circles. XD
Too be honest though, I wouldnt indicate anything in both pvp and pve. Just a personal preference.
I am with telegraphed AOE abilities by heart , I don't mind all classes have access to AOE but very limited , does it make it easy ? no never , difficulty has nothing to do with good telehraphed ability , look at lost ark , all abilities are telegraphed and still has the hardest boss fights and one of the best in this area specifically.
so about difficulty , the ability can be easier or harder depending on how fast the cast , how fast the animation , how fast the travel time of the ability itself ( for example a meteor or something like that ) , the damage , can the location of AOE be adjusted while it is travelling or not , all these can be adjusted to control how you want the balance and the difficulty of the ability , but from user experience perspective , I always support telegraphed abilities
Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are a common staple in MMORPG combat. We’re curious to know what your thoughts are on AoE abilities and the way they’re displayed.
I think AoE abilities are super important in MMOs as large scale PvP will be a big part of the Open World, but done incorrectly they can bring a ton of frustration to players. Every class kit should have enough AoE abilities to feel useful in a gameplay where AoE is king. Every DPS class should have a similar AoE power so that every class is enjoyable in large scale, it can come from specialization from the secondary archetypes or weapon skill tree but we should be able to change them as well. Like a Fighter's melee basic attack should have multiple choices to either be faster and more precise in a single target basic attack or slower but dealing AoE damage in an AoE. Like in Archeage where the battlerage's basic skill Triple Slash that is originally single target can become AoE with the Quake augment. It increases it's damage and makes the attack AoE but drastically reduces its attack speed and removes a combo effect that the original version had. VFX wise; we also get a little effect indicating it's an AoE on top of seeing it being slower.
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
We should be able to differentiate an AoE that is "friendly" to us, against one that is not and finally one that is neutral if that exists. A visual clue like a red shade should do the job. An example of what not to do would be from Archeage, where AoEs are all looking the same wherever they're friendly or not. AoE traps which will CC you if you step on them being all displayed the same no matter if they are friendly or not, so you need to pray they aren't hostile so you can walk through them or even use them as protection against melees that would like to jump you. Not knowing what the AoE trap will do just because we're missing the key information to know if its hostile or not gets annoying after some time.
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
My thoughts are the same for pure PvE, whoever I think we should be able to turn off the visual clue to know if an AoE is hostile or friendly, as it won't be needed and the game will always look better without.
I am a former Crowfall (RIP) player and that game had one of the best PvP experience i´ve ever had.
I also played CF and i would agree it was one of the better/best PvP combats atleast for smaller scale. It fell horribly short when it came to large scale (which is what the game was designing more around).
Issue crowfall had with largescale PvP was there were AoE caps of 5 players for every AoE and heals targets lower hp and dmg was RNG. So effectly you got invincable zerg balls which kinda sucks since single target dmg was blocked by other people and AoE kill were random hit so you never could finish anyone off cause they run behind the blob and full heal.
That being said if AoE target caps were removed in that game it would of been alot better since fight would spread out.
I agree they should be telegraphed. As for the effect, i believe the smaller the area, the more potent the damage. and all aoe abilities should have a channeled part to them to increase size but decrease damage. this in turn lets you chose what matters more in each scenario and if skilled enough, take advantage of high damage when needed.
And if telegraphed in pvp, they should not have long cast times due to this always being a disadvantage to pvp scenarios...
allowing for the ability to get them off and for people to make choices as to if its worth leaving the area or not..
The opacity shouldn't change. i agree it would lead into more strategy and mistakes lead by the enemy, but unless you have an assassin with an invisibility smoke screen in which its skill also effects other skills, I don't think it should be added... we conjure the skills from our magic and essence, we don't have the ability to make them less visible to only our enemy's. too unrealistic.
My thoughts don't differ too much from pvp to pve. they should work in all scenarios.
Cant really remember the games I've seen channeling aoe to get larger. maybe perfect world or eso? idk. but but i still think its a good concept that allows for more strategy. i love skill based gameplay.
Hands down the best experience I've ever had with telegraphed abilities was in wildstar, that system was one of their greatest assets.
Very simply all abilities were technically aoe but had a limit as to how many targets they could damage so if more than the designated target was in the telegraphed area the targets closest to the dealer would take damage first. Some spells were single target in this system and it just worked well. You could have sniping abilities as well as melee things going on and it was all so clear on your screen. In pve it also worked wonders and it enabled for high intensity gameplay so triggers were fast and crisp because you knew if you got hit or not and could react accordingly. You knew it was your own fault when you got hit, it never felt like invisible bs out of nowhere. So yea I think it's optimal to clearly telegraph everything as in wildstar.
There are plenty of good examples and ideas for telegraphs already posted.
I'd like to focus on effects overloads during large-scale fights with lots of enemy telegraphs. Or perhaps a raid boss producing multiple overlapping AoE attacks.
I suggest that, in the case of overlapping AoE, the telegraphs should represent potential damage or risk to the players. Ten overlapping AoE fields of low potency traditionally have a tendency to appear much more shaded/threatening than, say, three overlapping AoE fields of high potency.
I'm suggesting that the point of AoE telegraphs is to provide the player with info about where they shouldn't be standing. Given a battle of sufficient size, avoiding all AoEs will become impossible. So the telegraphs with the biggest graphical highlight should be the locations receiving/about to receive the most lethality. Lower risk locations may still be affected by AoE, but should have extremely low highlighting to indicate that location is relatively safer than others.
If there are, for example, 2-4 highlight intensity levels that scale with the risk by location, the information is always useful and relevant. A low number of overlapping AoEs and a high number of overlapping AoEs may end up appearing quite similar in this situation. But the overall clutter is reduced and the information stays relevant, even if the overall damage or number of effects is variable.
From a player perspective: Always avoid the areas with most intense highlights. Move toward the areas with less intense highlights (or no highlights at all, if available). Outside of this, the only other relevant AoE information is boundaries and target areas of your own AoEs.
One of the best implementations of AoE effects and spells in general was in Everquest 2, where many effects had a different damage calculation or effects in PVP.
This made it very easy to balance things in PvP without making them weaker in PVE.
I also find it absolutely sexy when a tank can also taunt a player in PvP. Even if it's only 2 seconds.
Unschuld gibt es nicht, es gibt nur unterschiedliche Facetten der Schuld.
Honestly there is not a on size fits all solution for aoe and telegraphs.
For example.
With a player move, An effect that is a one time effect, like a fireball, or archer volley. It does its damage and its done without any lingering effects on the area, no telegraph at all. A cast bar, or cast animation can be visible, but nothing on the ground.
For the same thing, with a boss move, sometimes you need to telegraph that for the mechanic to be solvable.
And then theres lingering area damage over time effects, need to leave something behind so the player knows to not go in.
When considering Area of Effect (AoE) abilities in Ashes of Creation, I believe that implementing elemental interactions and combos, similar to what we see in Guild Wars 2, could add significant depth and complexity to the combat system. In Guild Wars 2, elemental combos allow abilities from different players to interact with each other, creating powerful and strategic effects.
For example, an Elementalist can create a Fire Field by using the skill "Fire Wall," which lays down a wall of fire on the ground. When a Warrior then uses "Arcing Arrow" as a Blast Finisher within that Fire Field, it triggers a powerful area effect known as Might that boosts the attack power of all allies in the blast area.
This type of mechanic encourages cooperation and coordination within a group, rewarding teams with good synergy with a significant advantage in combat. Implementing something similar in Ashes of Creation could greatly differentiate PvE and PvP battles, allowing tactical skill to prevail over sheer force or numbers.
Additionally, the clarity with which these interactions and telegraphs are displayed is crucial. In PvP, for instance, the ability to identify and react to an enemy’s combo could be the difference between victory and defeat. Therefore, AoEs should be clearly telegraphed, but in a way that still allows for the execution of smart and unpredictable plays.
These mechanics would not only enrich the gameplay but also enhance the satisfaction of mastering the complexities of the combat system, rewarding teamwork and player synergy.
Comments
Persistent AOE on the other hand can be very dangerous in PVP as it doesn't just deal damage, it also serves as area denial. I played a few games (4Story was the worst offender) where persistent AOE was accessible to way too many meta classes so players could create an absolutely insane killing ground where nobody could go. Due to this fights devolved into WW1 style tug of war which is just boring when it happens every single time.
In Crowfall AOE abilities were limited in their maximum number of targets so they wouldn't be too powerful against large groups of players. The problem was that the optimal strategy against there skills was to clump up even more to spread the damage out through the entire raid instead of the abilities consistently hitting their intended amount of targets
And of course there is the problem with visual clarity as in large scale battles there are going to be tons of people casting tons of spells at the same time and coordinated groups are gonna choose a single place to nuke and obliterate everybody standing there. And you really don't want that to cause a flashbang.
As the person in our group that deals with adds, off tanking, and large area of effect damage this would normally be where I have a lot to say. Rewatching these fights after seeing Firebrand, however, reminds me just how much I was really prepared to play 'classic' AoC as it's being affectionately referred to. What an excellent example of how well done AoE effects and large scale combat can be done. I miss that poison dragon. I miss those eldritch nightmares. So much so, that I'm going to let my group leader handle the rest on this topic out of respect for the past development.
GW2 got it mostly right.
Just decide what information Intrepid would maximally allow players to access and then let the players cull visuals according to their preferences and desired performance. Those preference options should be as detailed as possible, as well.
YES! Guild Wars 2 has done it perfectly-Even at mass fights.
Shouldn't be telegraphed a lot, when AoE is cast and it's like a trap, there should be just an ember or a wisp on the ground for a second and then it should disapear. Then AoE should only show up again when the trigger is activated, then just do one pulse or a flash and make it invisible again.
In AoC the effects got way better since last year, but they are still too slow for me, too large with thick lines and thick shapes and their flat animation speeds look like Powerpoint slideshows to me. Spell effects should be as fast as lightining and this will fix the clutter by a lot.
AoC effects are obese and move like a snail that can only move in the same speed from start to finish.
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
Clutter is a major issue, especially when both sides have the same spell effects and colors. In a large fight, it’s unclear whether you’re stepping into a blob of death or if nothing will happen at all.
I would introduce 9 different color schemes for spells and abilities and allow guilds with at least 40 members to create their own fully customizable color schemes. Alliances should also have their own schemes. For example, if a guild is role-playing as evil, they could change the color of lightning bolts to red or any color they choose, and similarly customize other spells and abilities. If in-game customization is too complex, a webpage could be provided where players submit profiles with the ID of each spell and the chosen RGB values. The next time players log in, they would download the new schemes. Customization shouldn’t be an everyday task, so managing it through a webpage and periodic downloads would be efficient.
With these color schemes in place, players could select their preferred scheme. When in a party, the party leader should be able to override everyone’s schemes and choose any scheme they want, including their own guild’s or alliance's scheme. Even if there are members from different guilds, they would use the leader’s chosen scheme for that party.
This approach would enhance visibility and communication during large battles, helping everyone understand which group is casting what and where. This is particularly important, as in past PvP streams, it was often unclear who was casting certain spells like magic walls.
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
No.
Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
No, since one dev just copies the other.
My take, you should be asking about other stuff too:
To be honest, I would stop creating so much effects for buffs, defensive spells and abilities and stuff like that, and I would just give everybody glowing eyes, the eyes would glow according to what is going on with them and I would have less spell and abilities effects. Aren't the eyes the window to the soul?
The AoC spell effect that resembles a massive cone of gold or orange light, which was used multiple times in the last stream, should have been removed from the game a long time ago. Plusits constant progression speed is a deal breaker for me. Instead, the glowing eyes/object system would update the eye effect to incorporate the same color (that gold/orange). If the eyes already have a different color effect, blend the new color with the existing one creating a third color. If there are no existing effects, the glow will be gold or orange for sure since there's nothing to add upon.
Glowing eyes, glowing earrings, glowing amulets and pendants, glowing ring, maybe even a jewel on your legendary weapon. If a weapon has a permanent effect and a jewel, than that jewel should always have the right glow for that kind of effect. Or maybe the jewel grants the effect and then you add to your gear. Incorporate these types of effects and let them carry most of the passive effects and buffs. Remove nearly all passive effects and buffs from other sources.
Adopting a more minimalist approach to effects will enhance their value. When effects are just a clutter of flying wisps, it greatly reduce their overall impact and significance
- aoes should be low dmg to multiple people. aoe nukes that do 80% of health bars are bad.
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
-stronger spells that do more dmg with casting time or charge up time. if the caster has the extra benefit of increasing damage, i should have extra time to dodge. high risk high reward for the caster.
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
clear.. but taking into consideration zvz and gvg, they shouldnt be long lasting animations or the screen gets all full of crap. a short explosion or short lightning aoe effect is enough just so u know what u got hit with.
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
not really. seeing a aoe area or telegraph for a powerful aoe spell would help the tank pull in the mobs to the right place.
In my opinion, Ashes should always go for the latter. It is clear that Ashes is building the MMORPG that we've always wanted. As Intrepid and us enjoyers often state, we're trying to follow the rules that the acronym set forth. Roleplaying game is the concept that I'm far more concerned with here.
"Realistically" Magic doesn't work in perfect circles, physical attacks don't work in perfect circles. Things are shaped to the caster's creativity, the shape of the weapon, the intention behind the maneuver. This means that the impact of AoEs should be fluid, have unique shapes, and challenge the player to use their skill in unconventional matters rather than simply reacting really fast to big bad red circle.
Does this sacrifice ease of development and visual clarity for the sake of cosmetic satisfaction and immersion? Absolutely, and I have no regrets. If people have conflicts with the concept of uniquely shaped AoEs in association with skill, clarity and creativity... Look no further than league of legends. Champs like Aatrox and Diana have incredibly unique interacts with the shape of their attacks. Although there is always reason to complain with Riot's capability to handle a game... I think they have created some absolutely gorgeous game interactions with some of the uniquity in AoEs.
Ashes of Creation should always be beauty, immersion, and fantasy first and foremost. There's no reason to think that gameplay must suffer to accommodate those things. Big bad red circle is horribly boring and overdone, we're here to push boundaries and make something unique, let's do that.
Mages imo rock AoEs, but every class should get in on the action. Its key to have super clear, ground indicators that aren’t blocked by terrain so everyone, even those on low settings, can see what’s happening and stay in the game.
Telegraphing AoEs in PvP:
Every AoE within a certain range should show up clearly for enemies, with the right shape on the ground (circle, cone, etc.). If an AoE sticks to the caster, the indicator should move with them. Fast-changing abilities might skip telegraphs but should be super rare.
AoE Visibility for Players:
Make the player’s own AoEs the most visible, followed by enemy AoEs, and then friendly ones. Ground indicators should be color-coded so you can easily spot what’s yours and what’s coming at you.
AoEs in PvE:
The priority stays the same: your own moves first, enemy AoEs second, and ally AoEs last. In PvE, especially in raids, enemy AoEs need to be super clear so players aren’t overloaded with info.
Examples from Other Games:
Guild Wars 2 nails AoE displays, especially for Staff Necromancers. Their AoEs are easy to spot and understand, making them a solid example to follow.
5. Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
I put about 3k hours in Albion Online to prepare for the type of PvX gameplay that will be present in AOC. The game has a very different style, more basic. But It makes AoEs VERY defined. It's simple style lends itself to this. But AoC could also benefit form this even though the graphics are much more complex. See this image.
Although this looks chaotic, after practice, I can see the two abilities the boss is using 1. Beam 2. Orb, the damage reduction AoE (Purple ring) and the cooldown reduction AoE (Faint tan Ring). I think the clear boundaries are very important or PvX games in particular because it raises the skill celling, which at the end of the day is the thing that keeps players coming back!
Generally only persistant hard CC and massive damage nukes, and the Nukes should indicated by an epicenter marker NOT a ring telling you exactly where the safe zone is. Knowing the radius of common AoE attacks is relevent player skill and epicenter markers produce less visual clutter, all AoE damage effects should do diminished damage from the radius so any amount of dodging is worthwhile and players reactions are rewarded with proportional mitigation.
The casters character animation windup, and a visible moderate speed projectile lobbed at the target location should be all the indicator mid size damage spells like a fireball need. A player who wants to dodge that should keep their head up and look at the enemy NOT at their own feet for an indicator to be spoonfed to them.
Ground indicators circles have their place in single player games where bosses are dropping insta kill shots and predictive dodging is part of the intended gameplay. But if another player has a skill that is so deadly and wide that it needs that kind of indicator to let everyone dodge it then the ability probably needs a rework.
Their should be NO SUCH THING as a friendly AoE, it will always lead to a toxic lobbing of AoE's into melee and lead to mindless nuke fests in large group pvp. Friendly fire on all AoE effects even if it's not an equal amount of damage taken, due to the aformentioned radial dropoff will nessesitate real comunication and teamwork by AoE producing classes. If their is no difference in an AoE's effect becaue of who cast it, their would be no need to visually distinquish them and the whole nonsense of trying to do so is avoided. Likewise all persistent groud DoT type effects like burning etc are simple and universal and recognize no allegence to any player, so simply don't walk on the lava.
No, a PvX game should always seek to make the mechanics of vP and vE identical to the greatest extent possible. Raid bosses where massive damage and insta kill abilities are being dropped are the only places big ground indicators are appropriate. It is the nature of the ability being dropped not the setting that should dictate telegraphing.
Long answer: The primary concern regarding AoE visuals in a PvX game is readability. It should be obvious what abilities will deal damage to you and which won’t using ground overlays.
I’ll disagree with the few people saying their own AoEs should be the most distinct; you always know what your AoEs are doing, what’s important is what everyone else’s are doing.
High priority:
- NPC damage
- Non-ally player damage
Moderate priority:
- Enemy healing or buffs
- Ally buffs and synergistic AoEs
Low priority:
- your own AoEs
- your allies’ non-buff, non-synergistic AoEs
Things to deal with immediately, things to keep in mind but not pressing, and things you can generally ignore.
Those overlays should be in addition to the VFX, not in place of them, and should of course by customizable for color, vibrancy, and transparency depending on player preference and apply the same in both sorts of combat.
In general though for my feedback, please tone down these VFX on spells. They’re the worst visual clutter right now and make it hard to parse what’s actually going on. Not every basic cast needs a dramatic dance routine and fireworks to announce itself.
—
Now as for the power concerns, AoE should never be competing with single-target damage potential. AoE’s primary purpose should be zone control and status effects.
I believe AoEs need to be properly balanced so they don't become the only useful way (and sometime an OP way) of dealing damage in most situations. For that to happen I believe they need to meet a few requirements:
. Have significantly less dps than single-target abilities. That way AoEs will trump single target only in large scale as they should
. Player collision in combat must be implemented properly to limit the amount of player an AoE can affect and not make it super OP in large scale
. Archetypes that specialize in AoEs can't have great survivability and mobility, they need to rely on the healer and tanks to keep them alive while they dish out huge amounts of damage in a large scale battle.
I also believe AoE zone of effect should be displayed trough skill vfx, and not generic circles on the ground that make the game ugly.
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
I would say either big abilities that dish a lot of damage, or hard ccs. I would hope though that this telegraphing happens trough skill VFX and character animation, rather than a red circle or similar like most modern mmos do it. Maybe the skill starts from the players position and travels forward, or the player goes trough a casting animation to make it clear the ability is coming.
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
I think the distinction should be there but subtle. Maybe the skill has a small color difference.
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
No, its pretty much the same.
Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
I think Valve does a great job with VFX in general. I would recommend dota 2 and most recently deadlock as good VFX examples
AoE in PvP is a terrible design. Reduce impact of AoE skills on players. Dont listen to any advice that says AoE is the enemy of the zergs. The zergs are always stronger with aoe tools. High mp, high CD, low dmg, cone only preferably.
Bring back skill to pvp.
AoE indicators. I like natural looking abilities. I hate red circles green circles and all that visual polution.
Flames on the floor? Dont walk there.
Blessed area on the floor? That's your friendly aoe.
A reminder to tone down colour explosions of every ability in the game for better understanding of what's going on the battlefield.
AoE generally has a cast TARGET, wait until cast(spell time), casted (aoe starts here to show who was hit), and then timed dot (unless its DD). I find this works well if its a 'cast on target'.
GTAOE or 'mouse targetted' aoe. Generally the same above or a 'pool' when spell time is shown on the ground. Usually I don't like this as it gives where the AoE will hit and takes away from the actual effectiveness of the AoE as people move away from the area.
What about point blank aoe's (PBAoE)? or cone aoe's (CAoE)? I am surprised they arent even mentioned here given the companies background in pvp/rvr.
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
If I see someone and other people nearby being aoe dd'ed, usually thats enough for someone to say to themselves, 'maybe its not a good area to stand or be at'. I find that a long term spell like a 'mes' in dark age of camelot works. You don't see the target have zzz's above the mesed persons head for more than 10 seconds and usually a person standing still tells me they are 'cced' already.
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
IMO, use a slash command such as /effects all, effects player, effects none, effects group, effects battleground or effects mob should be a thing. This would effect those who want options and don't want to ruin the eyes of everyone if it becomes too flashy. Make it customised!
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
Same thing as above. Sometimes I just do NOT need to see a target cc'ed or aoe'ed for the 500th time in a row. I know its expected at that point.
Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
Warhammer Online/Dark Age of Camelot.
DAoC 'hid' where the caster was going to aoe or dd until they were hit whereas it was pretty clear where a bright wizard or sorc was going to use the mouse over AoE (not targetted). I personally loved the DAoC style as you had no reason to see where the aoe was going to go until it hit until it did.
If AoC had some sort of class that 'sucked groups into the character', I'd say Warhammer Online would be a better choice as a tight group of players could easily obliterate the many.
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
Not always. If the AOE ability has a persistent effect on the ground such as burning or slow then yes it should be displayed for enemies to see and avoid. It should not be visible when it is being targeted on the ground or if there is no lingering effect.
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
I don't think you need to do anything crazy here. A clear edge should be established via a lighter color or a simple ending of the effect (example: Vines stop existing outside of AoE space).
For beneficial effects, I would like to see a clear color distinction between good and bad effects. We saw this during the latest livesteam. The bard fire attack and the fire attacks of the elementals, mages etc were all the same orange color so if one is focused on the battle they may mix up what is helpful (or harmless) and what is actually damaging them. Beneficial Cleric, Bard, and Summoner spells need their own universal appearance to make it clear to players that's the good fire, light, water or whatever form the spell may take. As a future player of one of those classes I do not want my teammates getting confused and running away from my buffs/heals and wasting my CDs.
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
No, I think AoEs should largely function the same.
Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
GW2 is pretty on point for me. I'm not crazy about the white line showing the edge of the AoE but it's effective enough I suppose.
Future Crafting Plans: Herbalism > Alchemy & Scribe or Mining > Metalworking > Jewel cutting (Pending)
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies? Generally, I would say that stronger the skill, the more clear the telegraphing should be. Esp as things get crowded and hectic, you need to be able to parse the information and clearly understand what is a threat, and what isn't. It's not very fun to get blown up out of nowhere and not know why. Of course you also have to take into account latency.
From what I have seen from Alpha 1, the powerful skills all look appropriately over the top. This is in part to be clear for whom the skill is being used on, but also to make the person using it feel powerful. In this regard your on the right track. Skills should feel good to be used and have them be used on.
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players? Immediately. Personally I am a fan of the red ring of death. (or cones, lines, etc) Where you outline the area of effect with a bright red that is only ever used to show harmful effects. Naturally you'd want color blind modes, as well the ability to turn off such features if someone so wishes. But by default, it should be clear what will hurt you. Nor does it matter if it is a PvE or PvP threat.
You don't really need to call out friendly AOE's, as effectively anything that doesn't hurt you is friendly.
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting? In regards to UI elements, they should be universal. Animation on the other hand can be even more stark and clear, as your going to run into bosses with the ability to one shot you. And when you do, it needs to be made super clear.
When you get hit by something, it has to feel like it was your fault for not getting out of the way or paying attention. I would look to games like Monster Hunter or the Souls series for cues on clear animation telegraphing.
Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them! I think for UI elements, Guild Wars 2 is the gold standard. However to be clear, I am ONLY talking about the visuals and UI. Do not use their AOE mechanics that limit target numbers, because all that does is empower zergs. And I know you don't want to do that.
Regarding inclusion of some forewarning in the animations, in PvP shouldn't any impactful action be telegraphed? But that aside, most especially the actions with highest damage or CC effects should provide opportunity to block or evade. That being said, I always found red circles on the ground before AoE's hit tacky and unnecessary.
If under attack via an AoE, then it's relevant to know where it is and it's extent. Moreover, each AoE should be distinctive, recognizable in its own way.
Also important is the ability to distinguish friendly AoE's from enemy AoE's, otherwise the situation becomes confusing, misleading.
Final thought, I think it's good to have some AoE's in PvP that strike fear into opponent groups. Much as the way NPC attacks should be dangerous. Skill in dealing with such things reflects knowledge, coordination and sheer ability. (IMAO)
I pass on referencing other games for AoE examples, because Intrepid is doing a great job and in no way do I want to direct or limit your creativity or judgement!
xoxo
LFG: Open World, tight knit coordination, multiple roles, will travel.
Too be honest though, I wouldnt indicate anything in both pvp and pve. Just a personal preference.
so about difficulty , the ability can be easier or harder depending on how fast the cast , how fast the animation , how fast the travel time of the ability itself ( for example a meteor or something like that ) , the damage , can the location of AOE be adjusted while it is travelling or not , all these can be adjusted to control how you want the balance and the difficulty of the ability , but from user experience perspective , I always support telegraphed abilities
I think AoE abilities are super important in MMOs as large scale PvP will be a big part of the Open World, but done incorrectly they can bring a ton of frustration to players. Every class kit should have enough AoE abilities to feel useful in a gameplay where AoE is king. Every DPS class should have a similar AoE power so that every class is enjoyable in large scale, it can come from specialization from the secondary archetypes or weapon skill tree but we should be able to change them as well. Like a Fighter's melee basic attack should have multiple choices to either be faster and more precise in a single target basic attack or slower but dealing AoE damage in an AoE. Like in Archeage where the battlerage's basic skill Triple Slash that is originally single target can become AoE with the Quake augment. It increases it's damage and makes the attack AoE but drastically reduces its attack speed and removes a combo effect that the original version had. VFX wise; we also get a little effect indicating it's an AoE on top of seeing it being slower.
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
We should be able to differentiate an AoE that is "friendly" to us, against one that is not and finally one that is neutral if that exists. A visual clue like a red shade should do the job. An example of what not to do would be from Archeage, where AoEs are all looking the same wherever they're friendly or not. AoE traps which will CC you if you step on them being all displayed the same no matter if they are friendly or not, so you need to pray they aren't hostile so you can walk through them or even use them as protection against melees that would like to jump you. Not knowing what the AoE trap will do just because we're missing the key information to know if its hostile or not gets annoying after some time.
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
My thoughts are the same for pure PvE, whoever I think we should be able to turn off the visual clue to know if an AoE is hostile or friendly, as it won't be needed and the game will always look better without.
I also played CF and i would agree it was one of the better/best PvP combats atleast for smaller scale. It fell horribly short when it came to large scale (which is what the game was designing more around).
Issue crowfall had with largescale PvP was there were AoE caps of 5 players for every AoE and heals targets lower hp and dmg was RNG. So effectly you got invincable zerg balls which kinda sucks since single target dmg was blocked by other people and AoE kill were random hit so you never could finish anyone off cause they run behind the blob and full heal.
That being said if AoE target caps were removed in that game it would of been alot better since fight would spread out.
And if telegraphed in pvp, they should not have long cast times due to this always being a disadvantage to pvp scenarios...
allowing for the ability to get them off and for people to make choices as to if its worth leaving the area or not..
The opacity shouldn't change. i agree it would lead into more strategy and mistakes lead by the enemy, but unless you have an assassin with an invisibility smoke screen in which its skill also effects other skills, I don't think it should be added... we conjure the skills from our magic and essence, we don't have the ability to make them less visible to only our enemy's. too unrealistic.
My thoughts don't differ too much from pvp to pve. they should work in all scenarios.
Cant really remember the games I've seen channeling aoe to get larger. maybe perfect world or eso? idk. but but i still think its a good concept that allows for more strategy. i love skill based gameplay.
Very simply all abilities were technically aoe but had a limit as to how many targets they could damage so if more than the designated target was in the telegraphed area the targets closest to the dealer would take damage first. Some spells were single target in this system and it just worked well. You could have sniping abilities as well as melee things going on and it was all so clear on your screen. In pve it also worked wonders and it enabled for high intensity gameplay so triggers were fast and crisp because you knew if you got hit or not and could react accordingly. You knew it was your own fault when you got hit, it never felt like invisible bs out of nowhere. So yea I think it's optimal to clearly telegraph everything as in wildstar.
I'd like to focus on effects overloads during large-scale fights with lots of enemy telegraphs. Or perhaps a raid boss producing multiple overlapping AoE attacks.
I suggest that, in the case of overlapping AoE, the telegraphs should represent potential damage or risk to the players. Ten overlapping AoE fields of low potency traditionally have a tendency to appear much more shaded/threatening than, say, three overlapping AoE fields of high potency.
I'm suggesting that the point of AoE telegraphs is to provide the player with info about where they shouldn't be standing. Given a battle of sufficient size, avoiding all AoEs will become impossible. So the telegraphs with the biggest graphical highlight should be the locations receiving/about to receive the most lethality. Lower risk locations may still be affected by AoE, but should have extremely low highlighting to indicate that location is relatively safer than others.
If there are, for example, 2-4 highlight intensity levels that scale with the risk by location, the information is always useful and relevant. A low number of overlapping AoEs and a high number of overlapping AoEs may end up appearing quite similar in this situation. But the overall clutter is reduced and the information stays relevant, even if the overall damage or number of effects is variable.
From a player perspective: Always avoid the areas with most intense highlights. Move toward the areas with less intense highlights (or no highlights at all, if available). Outside of this, the only other relevant AoE information is boundaries and target areas of your own AoEs.
This made it very easy to balance things in PvP without making them weaker in PVE.
I also find it absolutely sexy when a tank can also taunt a player in PvP. Even if it's only 2 seconds.
For example.
With a player move, An effect that is a one time effect, like a fireball, or archer volley. It does its damage and its done without any lingering effects on the area, no telegraph at all. A cast bar, or cast animation can be visible, but nothing on the ground.
For the same thing, with a boss move, sometimes you need to telegraph that for the mechanic to be solvable.
And then theres lingering area damage over time effects, need to leave something behind so the player knows to not go in.
All in all, the answer is. "It depends"
For example, an Elementalist can create a Fire Field by using the skill "Fire Wall," which lays down a wall of fire on the ground. When a Warrior then uses "Arcing Arrow" as a Blast Finisher within that Fire Field, it triggers a powerful area effect known as Might that boosts the attack power of all allies in the blast area.
This type of mechanic encourages cooperation and coordination within a group, rewarding teams with good synergy with a significant advantage in combat. Implementing something similar in Ashes of Creation could greatly differentiate PvE and PvP battles, allowing tactical skill to prevail over sheer force or numbers.
Additionally, the clarity with which these interactions and telegraphs are displayed is crucial. In PvP, for instance, the ability to identify and react to an enemy’s combo could be the difference between victory and defeat. Therefore, AoEs should be clearly telegraphed, but in a way that still allows for the execution of smart and unpredictable plays.
These mechanics would not only enrich the gameplay but also enhance the satisfaction of mastering the complexities of the combat system, rewarding teamwork and player synergy.