1. Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are a common staple in MMORPG combat. We’re curious to know what your thoughts are on AoE abilities and the way they’re displayed.
Feedback to Visuals is described in the other questions.
I share the concerns of some other comments about AoE beiing too opressive. especially in PvP.
my suggestion would be that AoE Dots scale with 100% of the dmg that single target AoEs do since NPCs and Players can walk out of it.
for instant AoEs i would do 40% dmg of an single target ability + 20% per target hit up to 5 times which results in 140% when NPCs got stacked by a tank or Players stacked too much.
2. In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
AoE Dots or enemy Hots should have a clear indicator so Players can avoid them or push enemys out of them.
Instant AoE such as Meteor that have an wind up time should give an slight indicator before they hit. could be something like a glowing ring but immersive so it doesnt break the worlds athmosphere.
for instant AoE without wind up time such as Consecrating Wave is no telegraph needed. for those skills its just important that the visual effect matches the hit area.
3. How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
as i read the other comments i realised that we all forgot color blindness. so in order to be accessible AoE should have the three color blindess versions covered. im not sure how it could work but if its possible to make skills change their animation colour in those modes would eliminate a lot of telegraphic animations on the ground. secondly i read that having different indicators for different skills besides colour would be very helpful. as example a circle from Divine Flare could have different design that other AoEs. im pretty sure making them change based on friend or enemy is pretty difficult coding wise.
to differentiate a friendly and an enemy Divine Flare: its probably the easiest solution to make color coded grounds but if changing the color of the skill itself slightly regarding the color blindness idea. that would be great. for instance a Tankwall could be grey green for friendlys and grey red for enemys. ofc there are more options needed to make it visible for everyone.
last point for that topic is effect opacity and setting options.
there are a lot of games that look great visually but people play it on low graphics to be competitive. i see that as an issue. i would like if increasing performance by lowering settings doesnt give a competetive edge. otherwise the nice graphics arent all that important in the first place.
effect opacity that is scalable seems to me like a good option to increase performance and customize the gameplay experience. all effects should still be visible on low opacity. just less intense. some other comment already mentioned that it would be good to have different sliders for own effects, friendly effects and enemy effects.
4. Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
mostly no difference. Firebrand was a good example. the AoEs where clear because of wind ups or leaving effects on the ground. just make the visuals be the exact hit area
5. Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
I think a middle ground between GW2 and Archeage would be good if the skill color solution doesnt work. the AoEs are clearly visible a bit more immersive in Archeage but for my taste too flashy while GW2 has them toned down but less immersive.
since there where already good GW2 links anly one for Archeage:
1. Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are a common staple in MMORPG combat. We’re curious to know what your thoughts are on AoE abilities and the way they’re displayed.
I think AoE abilities since the first gen MMO's have moved too far into "actiony" territory with GTAoE's, I like how it was done more back in the day, where you'd target someone and the AoE would be centered around them, or you'd have PBAoE's centered on the caster. I don't have a problem generally with how they're displayed, though I haven't played some of the more recent games, for obvious reasons.
2. In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
I think it's fine to more or less telegraph them by being able to look at the caster and see what they're casting. In terms of actually showing the area on the ground where the AoE is going to hit, that should be reserved only for very high damage spells that are meant for area denial more than anything else. Then the caster won't mind so much if people are getting out of the way of them.
In terms of showing the area on the ground where they'll land for most AoE's in PvP, that's a hard no, as it's difficult enough to get value out of AoE's already in PvP, especially lingering AoE"s which have no CC attached to them, since people can just avoid them (or get out of them) in most situation easily enough.
Centering AoE's on an enemy makes it so you're likely to at least land it on one person if nothing else, mitigating your loss of value if you miss the crowd. There can also be incentive for players to group up, like we saw with the Bard's "dancing" mechanics, creating a nice risk/reward scenario for those mechanics.
3. How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
To enemies, I outlined my thoughts on that above. To friendlies, I think beneficial AoE's should be clearly marked on the ground to give the option to friendlies to be there when they land. In terms of friendlies seeing AoE's that impact your enemies, I think it could be an option but generally, I feel like that's unnecessary visual clutter, and there's already enough of that in most games.
4. Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
Yes, my thoughts are that in PvE, it just doesn't really matter because it's PvE. You're going to win one way or the other the vast majority of the time.
5. Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
I guess DAoC did a good job with this, especially with most AoE's being centered on the enemy or being PBAoE instead of GTAoE. WoW also did fine just in terms of the visual presentation of abilities.
Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are a common staple in MMORPG combat. We’re curious to know what your thoughts are on AoE abilities and the way they’re displayed.
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
- (using blizzard spell from wow as reference) I would think removing the well defined circle and just showing the snow or ice itself could add some real depth. When I think about pvp and wether or not to Include myself in it, for a wide range of games. The pvp needs to have so many options that it's difficult to master, thats what makes it worth it. For example I can see why so many people like League of legends, it has a bajillion character options to play. When it comes to ashes I see where the 64 possible combo classes could pose some interesting pvp encounters, yet I can't imagine most will be used for serious pvping. Where I'm sure there will be endless rouges rolling both primary and secondary. A spell like a fan of knives that deals DMG but maybe doesn't have a cc should be seen and enjoyed to cast just as much as Blizzard that has a slow. But I would prefer more difficulty by not adding a giant white or blue ring on the floor for Blizzard and instead increasing the haze within the spell to make it more noticeable as to not get cc'd. The idea of having spells that stand out more, or even alot less, in certain environments is exciting to think about. I mean, to be a earth bender in the air temple should pose challenges..or advantages. Mmo players want to feel like we are living the characters, we don't need arrows telling us where spells are, surely we could benefit from arrows or distinct circles, but I can't imagine we would miss them when we get lost in the game.
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
-I think the player should have the choice to turn down spell effects from others, friendly or foe independently. I would rather see me spells being impactful rather than anothers in a raid. If I'm pvping I would like to see the wall my teammate just put up for us, or a stun thats about to hit.
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
-This whole topic has to be the same across the board. In pvp it's helpful to see aoe, in pve I would rather be able to see the AOE of the boss fight rather my party. So it has to be adjustable to make everyone happy.
Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
-I just started playing the witcher. Their is a cutscene right near the begining where the mage lady (forget her name) is caught in-between a battle. The spells she casted gave me the feeling some of the original wow expansion scenes did. It looked good, it's what I would love to click a set of buttons on my keyboard and make happen within the environment. She used some earth bending spell and to think that I could do that in a game where I feel like I'm actually ripping the floor out from underneath myself or another would be awesome. It relates to every other spell also. Cloudy environment and a rogue uses fan of knives and it blows back the air that begins slowly filling the space again. Maybe cast some vortex and it picks up that ashes from the land in one area as compared to leafs from another. Making spells have some interactions with the environment...Big aspirations. Keep up the good work!
For PVP, clear visuals for AoE effects are immensely important, especially in a game like Ashes where large open world PVP engagements are going to be encouraged.
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Idhalar AlBaieshMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited September 5
I think your approach to telegraphed attacks, displaying AOES and aiming reticles is great.
Please don't draw red circles on the floor for people to dodge, players will learn with practice and the effects of the skills are more than enough clue.
Firebrand is great, the siege dragons from A1 were great too, same with ranger and bard aoe skills.
I think that Ashes really needs strong and uncapped AOE skills if you want smaller groups to be able to do anything against zergs and tactics to matter. Player collision and AOEs are a game changer for PVP.
I know that a lot of people complain about visual clutter in big battles, but I think that it's just another part of battle and that it adds another layer of complexity to it. Any real combat can be confusing and chaotic, it's the nature of the beast. Now Imagine the seer madness of a massive battle with fantasy essence infused warriors with superhuman strength and living artillery in mage shape capable of unleashing torrents of natural disasters one after another. It should be noisy, chaotic and overwhelming as hell, learning to navigate that is another skill and visibility is just another aspect to consider in battle.
-In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
Again, I think that giving the skill a tell if you are paying attention is nice specially for really powerful effects, of course you should also be able to see ongoing effects like a blizzard, a field of fire or wizard spin to win, but nothing beyond that. No red circles/forms filling themselves to tell you how and when to dodge please.
-How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
I guess it depends on the AOE, some skills might be more subtle, but I think most of them should be pretty obvious. The difficult part is how to differentiate friendly from enemy effects. Maybe give ally effect a characteristic tint? For example in darktide friendly flames on the ground have a golden hue, it's not perfect but it helps.
Another option that could be very interesting if you are willing to test it is to activate friendly fire and force people to be careful with their aim and decision making. (Friendly fire ain't)
-Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
No, not at all.
-Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
BDO is a game with a lot of problems, but one thing they did very well was BDO witch/wizard on release, before the awakened weapons.
It's a class designed for AOE with very little single target skills. The spells felt satisfying to use and flowed beautifully from one to another. Big areas, with good casting times and CDs, good damage and cc, visual effects and impact with some terrifying spells on long cooldowns that really helped shaping the battlefield. Your really felt like a fantasy wizard.
Another thing that they did incredibly well was the targeting. I don't know how they made it, but with some practice you were able to place spells with pixel precision without any reticle or marker on the ground.
I know it's old as dirt and really unrealistic, but I also enjoyed the old Lineage 2 warlord/dreadnought gameplay a lot both in pve and mass pvp. AOE farming in l2 in general was pretty fun.
There is also a really old isometric mmo called Helbreath that did AOE spells really well, for me one of the first if not the first true action combat in an MMO, skill was the most important factor by far. They also did something really interesting with spells. By default friendly fire was active, you could turn on a "safe mode" that made your offensive spells ignore your allies, but at the expense of an increase in mana cost.
Only in silence the word, Only in dark the light, Only in dying life.
Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are a common staple in MMORPG combat. We’re curious to know what your thoughts are on AoE abilities and the way they’re displayed.
The game is so visually interesting and abilities are so intricate I think some sort of obvious communication of unfriendly aoe has to be transmitted (edges being red and pulsing, a sound effect you can enable that beeps at you, etc.) This also helps a ton with a few different issues such as color blindness and when spells happen to be of a similar hue as the terrain or the clutter of the terrain interferes with particles related to the aoe.
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
Ones that have a significant impact should be telegraphed. Those with a really long cd that have a high burst, long duration or persistent cc, or generally high damage. Anything that you have given a long cast time, cooldown, or otherwise create a limiter on mechanically should have a telegraph. Any aoe that is nearly a kill on it's own or assuredly a kill in combo with a team member following up.
It is a matter of consistency on the risk v. reward design philosophy and pillar of what makes a skill shot engaging for both the target and caster. It feels rewarding for the caster because it has a cast time, a telegraph, cooldown, and costly on mana (or some combination) that's a big risk. It is engaging and exciting for a target because they have the opportunity to respond by avoid the damage. It is engaging and exciting for team members because they can set this ability up through coordination.
Otherwise, there's a powerful ability with little to no reply from the target and which quickly feels frustrating and hopeless to deal with.
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
I feel like in a game where your have a lot of amazing but cluttering graphics it is recommended to differentiate them somehow quickly and easily by others. Also, given it is a game of risk v. reward where you want people thinking about the choices they make moment to moment... why wouldn't you add this layer? Immersion maybe? How does anyone learn in Verra to know the ice storm in front of them is okay to enter? There has to be a reason and a way or magic/aoe wouldn't be the useful in warfare.
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
To me the design philosophy where possible should be consistent. Part of an MMO is creating a signature experience which should follow between different types of content otherwise you start disconnecting players from the "escape" of the game by them seeing an inconsistency and having to recalibrate based on the part of the game they're engaging in. To me, the ideal is to make the experience seemless.
I could see some very selective narrative and mechanical exceptions but I'd trust you all to apply that with your best judgement.
Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
I don't have the time at this moment to link any but I will maybe come back and add some.
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HapiibeeMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
My only current thought on it is that some commonly used AoE should have less flashy or intense effects because it becomes redondant and tiring and that those flashier effects should be kept for bigger costing in time or resource AoEs to make them more stand out. Im guessing theres probably a setting to dim the effects down too.
1. Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are a common staple in MMORPG combat. We’re curious to know what your thoughts are on AoE abilities and the way they’re displayed.
AoE abilities are a core concept of mmos and need to be displayed very clearly for solo and group PvE situations very clear undercurrent translucent markings should be displayed brightly for those of your party and self in your party. With settings to minimize it to only self. It’s important to create a sense of timing and understanding of technical spacing on skills this way and will show through high saturation of multiple abilities for a sense of structure.
2. In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
Like in any game, a strong PvP stabilizes a game and adds infinite amounts of culture and lifetime to a game; I believe this is the most important question of all.
In PvP the competitive nature of the game and nurture of skill is more apparent and enjoyable when there are nearly no AoE markings from your opponent forcing players to learn what abilities look like prior to being cast/mid cast which Allows game knowledge to shine through in PvP play. However, it’s important to balance this in Zerg gameplay so I appreciate how the question is phrased, any ability that requires the opponent to stand still or very long cast times that have the ability to one shot multiple players could be the exception and have a more clear ground telegraph whether that be via ability sparks or an actual ground marking. Please take this into consideration and ensure PvP has a larger skill ceiling by allowing a very limited or no telegraphs that are from opponents.
3. How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
Friendly players should always be able to clearly see what you’re doing to help group play and even as a tool to help teach those in your party if you see them doing something sub-par with a skill, or where best for them to place a certain aoe, so very for friendly grouped players.
Enemy players again shouldn’t have many or any telegraphs to grow skill ceiling and allow players to have a reason to learn all the abilities natural setups from playing with them or through alts to learn what players might do in PvP without the telegraph help.
4. Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
I’m sure nearly everyone would agree especially with the direction AoC has been taking; in PvE and raid settings seeing all players around them on a distance slider and a on/off option for different types of content, and computer strengths.
very important to see all abilities marked on ground in PvE.
5. Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
Guild Wars 2 has probably the best example of PvP and PvE AoE, also not that it’s my favourite but ESO has very great PvP balance if you’re interested.
As mentioned. GW2 does it well. Also it would be cool to have some advanced AOE buff abilities that can be obtained where for example I can apply a buff to every player grouped or not within a certain radius.
Maybe AOE buffs can apply to all citizens of your node within range of you.
AOE effects are cool even if they act against logic. cuase they apply to the no friendly fire rule in a PVX game.
But since it is a game we let that fact slip and burry it deep down where noone can find it.
i would like to see that AOE and other CC that certain effects effecting the full screen or the movementpossebilitys of the characters. So that:
- Snare makes the Player unable to move around the visible field (only Head turning but not body, no looking behind)
- Sleep lets the screen getting cloudy and blurry
- Blinding makes the screen Black
Dmg AOE the effects ive seen were nice but there is also the Dmg vs Other players if enabled or no dmg if not enabled or in groupe. Its a strange consept specialy for a game where peoples mention to have a impactfull combat, there those AOE's feels ofplace. If in addition to DMG AOE the caster also applys a buff to groupe/raidmates to withstand the AOE dmg that however would open new tactics in PVP encouters where a enemy AOE can be Nullefied if the timeing is correct so to give the duff against that specific AOE DMG.
But how far will you go to have an immersive and impactfull combat system?
Also a system that doesnt stack 2 idendical AOE types so that 2 of the same AOE doesnt deal x2 dmg, maybe having a system that overrides the AOE with a stronger one if a 2nd of the same is activated while the other is still running so not only expanding the time but also maybe increase the effected zone or dmg it does. So that Twinclasses in the same Raid or groupe making additional sense. but with a limitation on how many times the existing AOE can be powered up and extending the time.
For example:
4 Mages useing Magma Field
Mage 1 Casts Field lasts for 8.1 Sec
Mage 2 Casts after the aprearance (to see where it is) casttime 2.4 sec Magmafield getting bigger, hotter and time is expanded by 2 sec (Tier 2 Field lasts for 8.1-2.4+2= 7.7sec)
Mage 3 Casts after 3 sec of aprearance from Mage 1 skill also expand size & dmg and expanse time by 2 sec
(Tier 3 Field Last for 8.1+2-3-2.4+2= 6.7sec)
Mage 4 was to slow and couldnt make it in time
but a AOE is not Stackeble but Fuseble So working with your mates and coordinate your attacs Brings benefits.
Thats what i would love to see for AOE
Fuseing insted of Stacking
Giving Buff for mates to not be effected by it
and CC and CC AOE haveing an effect on the full screen (visible field not UI stuff)
Whether it's PvE or PvP, part of the fun of learning a fight is learning to read the movement and abilities of your opponent and how to defend/punish/capitalize/counter against them. AoE or otherwise, skill animations should be unique/characterizing enough to stoke informed decision-making and cultivate reactive (even predictive) gameplay while using as few ground target markers as possible. Organic tells/cues are always more interesting than don't stand in red.
With that in mind:
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
All high impact/tide turning abilities should be easily readable. Big heals, defense cooldowns, CC's, executes, big damage etc.
Which AoE abilities should be telegraphed to friendlies?
Big heals, defense cooldowns, buffs
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
Not exactly sure how to interpret the question so my answer will regard visibility. All skill animations outside of filler damage should be clear for all, with sliders for intensity/opacity of other players effects (separate options for enemy/friendly). AoE Ground target markers should be customizable in intensity and color for friendly/enemy player/enemy NPC
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
No. But to add, 1-shots from mobs/bosses, Tankbusters and any mechanics that result in instant death (terrain removal, etc.) should always be telegraphed.
Both of the suggested images are lacking in clarity
1 doesn't tell you anything at all about the location or impact of the AoEs. 2 doesn't have visuals that match the damage source.
Color language in MMOs is fairly universal. Green is good, yellow is a warning notice, and red is active damage. Other colors tend to translate more loosely with a general 'vivid = dangerous'.
Making the 'bad ground' a blue wave texture just causes visual confusion, because the soft shapes tell players it's neutral or harmless, and the color echoes that assumption (it's literally mimicking water, the most neutral thing in the world). It would be shocking to walk into something with that effect and start taking damage. If there wasn't a caption, I think most people would assume that's a cleansing area where you go to cleanse that AoE tracking under the character's feet.
At least with those many circles, I know what each one is doing. Green, gold, and blue are safe to stand in. Red is active damage and orange is an ability about to land.
All you need is a bit of transparency on allied effects with a Blue Aura/Highlight/Tint for people in your party or raid, and a Green Aura/Highlight/Tint for non-flagged (Green) players outside your party that are not using force attack on their AoEs (that deal 0 damage). Hostile AoE effects can remain as they are with no issues.
Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are a common staple in MMORPG combat. We’re curious to know what your thoughts are on AoE abilities and the way they’re displayed. Staples are: Glacial Storm, Earthquake, Tornado, Thunderstorm, Meteor, Rain of Fire, Black Hole, Vortex
Display: When you use the ability you get a circle/box/line on your mouse cursor to indicate the range of the AOE. The visuals of the spell should be reasonably clear without having the need for green or red lines on the ground after it's cast.
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies? None, if it does not make sense in the "lore" of the spell. Example can be Black Hole. Say it has a ramp up time of 2 seconds, and before it deals damage it warps the surrounding area, letting people know that its about to explode. Or Meteor that casts a feigth shadow on the ground before it lands. Only way so see if an AOE is incomming is to watch the caster / castbar. AOE is usually relativly low damage wise, so people can easily just walk out of it.
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players? You should not in my opinion. PvP is going to be chaotic. Only option I can think of which does not involve green and red circles on the ground is an option to "Tint hostile and friendly spells". Which would tint friendly AOE slightly greener, and hostile AOE red/purple (just example colors).
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting? Yes. In PvE mechanics can be a bit clearer, but not green and red circles. It breaks the whole fantasy.
Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them! Im a big fan of earlier versions of World of Warcraft. Spell visuals are clean and not overwhelming unless there are a lot of players spamming it. You cant see any indication of friendly or enemy AOE, which can make it difficult, and thats how it should be. In my opinion.
TL;DR: Just scroll down to the examples section, because the most important stuff is illustrated down there.
1. Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are a common staple in MMORPG combat. We’re curious to know what your thoughts are on AoE abilities and the way they’re displayed.
The only two universal rules I would apply, are that the VFX should match the hitbox and duration of AoEs as closely as possible, and that the intensity of VFX should match their power level/importance: * VFX should have an appropriate wind-up, to go with the character animation or cast time. * Instantaneous AoEs should have a snappy impact point, at the same time as the actual hitbox hit, and then a quick dispersal depending on how impactful the ability was meant to be. -- Spam-able AoEs should get off the screen ASAP, because they have low power/relevance for the player. -- Long, powerful cooldowns can linger for a second, just to lend weight/satisfaction and (for PvP) to help identify "wtf just one-shot me?" * Persistent AoEs should also have a slightly snappy impact that matches the first tick of the effect. * Again, the persistent visuals should match the power of the ability, with brighter/more opaque VFX reserved for long-cooldown abilities. * CRITICAL: If the AoE is something you might want to move into/out of, then it needs a very clear border for the duration of it's effect. (This is less important for instant AoEs, but would still be nice if it doesn't interfere with other priorities.) * And finally, the persistent visuals should start to dissipate before the effect ends, such that it is fully/mostly off the screen as soon as the last tick hits.
2. In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
Two interpretations of "telegraph" in that question...
As explained in the previous section, everything should have clear visuals and AoE borders when they are actually hitting you.
But if we're talking about a warning telegraph before the hit, then I think this should be determined on a case-by-case basis. Most abilities should have some kind of tell, showing where an AoE is about to land and allowing for counter-play. Like a meteor falling from the sky, or cracks forming in the ground during the cast/wind-up animation, or a trap that was visibly placed a few seconds ago. And anything without a built-in telegraph, should probably be given a standard colored-shape ground-telegraph (like for a hail of arrows that is about to land).
Although some AoEs could be exempt from this, if they are meant to be particularly sneaky/fast (maybe like a summoner/rogue using a zero-damage snare/root to set up for their other abilities), or if they just aren't very important and rarely need to be dodged (spam-able low-damage AoEs).
3. How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
This is probably where there will be a lot of different answers, and "it depends" answers. And a lot of that should be left up to the player, via optional settings that can simplify or hide different categories of VFX. For me though, I would prefer:
Obviously I should see my own AoEs with full VFX.
Similar to the last question, anything that I might want to dodge (or block) should be visible to me. Instants can have full VFX (because they don't block vision for very long, and the weaker ones should already have negligible visual impact), as well as the more powerful lingering effects (which I want to be highly visible, so I can get out of them).
HOWEVER, I expect that PvP will be hectic and crowded, and I don't want two dozen AoEs crowding up the screen constantly. So I think most lingering AoEs should be deemed "irrelevant", and their VFX should be simplified to a thin border and nothing else (GW2 example in the final question). That way, they are still somewhat visible, but do not crowd the screen.
(To enable this, the devs would have to make some tough decisions about how to categorize the "powerful" and "irrelevant" AoEs. Sorry. )
By default, ally AoEs can follow the same paradigm, with the only difference being that the simplified AoEs should have a different color border. That being said, I'm a little bit less concerned about allied VFX, so I might want to switch to even more simplified (or invisible) VFX in very large battles.
In any case, I think there should be a decent amount of options available for people to choose from in different cases, for all these permutations (full, simplified, invisible; ally or enemy; instant or lingering; powerful or irrelevant).
4. Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
The options should be the same in PvE, but I would likely choose more full VFX settings for my allies, since there won't be a ton of enemy AoEs competing for visual real-estate.
...That is, assuming it is easy enough to switch VFX settings between PvE and PvP contexts. If it's possible, I would like a system that automatically switches between "normal" settings and "simplified" settings (both of which I have to set up) whenever a certain threshold of enemy combatants is in the area or in-combat with me. That way, I would have full VFX most of the time in PvE and small-scale PvP, but larger PvP battles (like unexpected contests over open-world raids) automatically trigger the simplified settings.
5. Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
[To be added at a later time.]
Okay, here's a screenshot I stole from Reddit of a huge PvE fight in GW2. You can see the boss AoEs with their fire effect in them, but most of the player AoEs are rendered simply as a colored circle (different colors for different elemental types). Aside from that, I don't think GW2 has very good visual clarity though, so that's just an example to show what I'm talking about for toning down all the excess VFX in a big battle. Enemy AoEs and mechanics are more important than ally AoEs, so those VFX should be first in-line to be simplified.
And these are the options that FFXIV provides to tone down it's VFX. Because FFXIV has very beautiful, and bright, and LONG duration VFX for most abilities, it's very common to turn off the VFX for your party members so you don't see 8 explosions on top of the boss every 2 seconds. I don't think AoC will have VFX that are nearly that obnoxious, but I do think these options are perfect for tailoring the VFX to the player's preferences.
Lastly, here's an article from League of Legends about it's visual design and visual clarity. You can scroll half-way down to the VFX section, and it talks about everything I care about with examples and everything. Honestly I could have probably just posted that and saved a lot of typing. https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/dev/clarity-in-league/
if we talking about pvp corwfall had the best pvp out there and AoE was a big reason for that the key points was
1.limting the amount of players it could hit. that made it so that the ones that dint have it had to be avoided. fx slow and or very telegraphed attack.
2. AoE had their own distinct look. if it was red it was enemy and any any other color was friendly
3. ther was allways a way to counter a AoE. Fx there was a lot of AoE cc but there was also party wide CC immunity buff for a couple of seconds.
I generally like the design of this A LOT. @Syblitrh
Like, I'd love to see most of this implemented across skill design AND UI design.
However:
I don't fully understand this and I don't think looking at it longer or reading the text again will help me understand it, because I honestly don't think all of it makes sense:
Why are the red bars specifically to the left and right of the player?
What's the point of the dots surrounding the player turning red while you're within the particles? Why wouldn't you know that you're standing within the particles?
I think what would make more sense is to use the colours of the dots/wave animations as well as the cone-shaped bars to distinguish which type of effect the player is in.
Further, I would use the left/right indication to point into the direction of the centre of the AoE ability, so the player knows which direction they need to move away from in order to exit that effect.
The only one who can validate you for all the posts you didn't write is you.
I generally like the design of this A LOT. @Syblitrh
Like, I'd love to see most of this implemented across skill design AND UI design.
However:
I don't fully understand this and I don't think looking at it longer or reading the text again will help me understand it, because I honestly don't think all of it makes sense:
Why are the red bars specifically to the left and right of the player?
What's the point of the surroundings of the player turning red while you're within the particles? Why wouldn't you know that you're standing within the particles?
I think what would make more sense is to use the colours of the dots/wave animations as well as the cone-shaped bars to distinguish which type of effect the player is in.
Further, I would use the left/right indication to point into the direction of the centre of the AoE ability, so the player knows which direction they need to move away from in order to exit that effect.
Hey:), My main interest for giving an unfinished sketch idea, was to leave it open to interpretations and exploration based on the sketch, where devs can expand it with their own vision using this start point. Giving a full explained system, sometimes it kills the motivation and pride of the dev, as it would be a copy paste, which in most cases it will be skipped. Is just a spark, that's all. And yes your point is also good
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
Aside from recognizable casting animation? The ones which are still in effect, being maintained / channelled by the caster and so obviously still dangerous areas. Lava pools, poisonous gas clouds, earth shaking ground, icy surfaces, necrotic globes of darkness, wells of healing light ...
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
In table top D&D this is not really a question: a fireball engulf all those in its AoE, be they friends or foes. It's the job of the casters to position their spells at the right place. By getting rid of friendly fire (pun intended), most AoE traded some potency for ease of use, and what could be powerful situational spells / abilities became part of a normal rotation and safer to position, there is still some skill required to put them at most efficient spot, but it's easier.
Anyway... As per my answer to the first question, only the AoE still in effect need to be clearly displayed. The player maintaining the effect should be easy to identify. Now, it's up to the everyone involved to know who's a friend and who's an enemy. Granted, in huge battles such as castle or node sieges it won't be that evident a task, but I think that only accentuate how chaotic and risky such event should feel.
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
No. My view is that PvP and PvE should always be treated the same, as much as it is possible. Players should be considered mobs with a more complex AI. Same kind of abilities. Same mechanics. Same rules.
My general opinion on the subject:
I'd prefer no early-warning indicators whatsoever. If you get hit, that's okay. You can't control everything; perhaps you should have paid more attention about where your enemies were facing or standing too close to your allies, but really, sometimes you just get hit.
Give players and monsters clear casting animations, and leave the rest for the players to figure out.
UI should give decently clear information about any unclear ongoing sources of damage and CC, not warnings, unless some game design feature absolutely requires warnings as the best way to implement it.
(I'd personally prefer less powerful and shorter effects to receive no 3D indication at all, only combat logs and your buff status bar. Also, your opponents and allies should not have buff status bars, you should figure that information out from 3d animations.)
My main game had roughly 30 different offensive AoE effects across the 5 offensive classes, easily 10 of them high-impact massive CC and damage abilities, 5 of them high-impact varied CC, and on top of that another 15+ defensive AoE abilities. All of them were displayed with 3D spell effects only. If the effects have distinguishable colours and clear designs, you really don't need a lot of UI indicators. Here's an example clip with some of the main warlock abilities at
0:28 (Targeted high-distance, high-area AoE root typhoon - mostly surrounded by allies of the caster, hence few AoE targets),
0:36 (AoE silence around the warlock in dark purple; the range was about 50% higher than visible - you could clarify that with little dots marking the edge of the true area), and
3:30 (high-impact, high-distance, high-area knockdown and damage - shorter and weaker than normal because it's only skilled to a low level)
I think early-warning indicators are a crutch for bad encounter design appealing to a player types who can't handle not being in control, and would rather delude themselves by having more information than than they can actually do anything with.
Good game design lets you figure out most of your information from what you can see happening in 3D.
If indicators are necessary, I hope they remove very little need of players to pay attention to their surroundings and make informed choices in advance about when they are safe to bunch up, and when they need to spread out.
If you can just react to every major AoE threat with a dash because lights flash up a second before it happens, you're not playing against people, and not making skilled game-knowledge-based decisions, you're just playing a rhythm game in a fantasy setting with an illusion of PvP interaction.
The only one who can validate you for all the posts you didn't write is you.
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AikaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
1. Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are a common staple in MMORPG combat. We’re curious to know what your thoughts are on AoE abilities and the way they’re displayed.
First I want to maybe invite a discussion on whether the combat should be more single target focused or AoE focused (as is most spells or most impactful ones for each class).
Disclaimer, the below is purely my opinion and more of an invitation to think about the topic.
I personally believe combat in an MMO should be more aoe focused rather than a select someone and press burst buttons /combo to make him disappear. why ?
AoE based combat is a nice way to blend in action combat elements in the game despite it being tab target at its core although AoC is already implementing this.
When most skills are AoE based, it invites both more group play and ways to mitigate number disadvantages. I can illustrate with an example, let's suppose a player in getting ganked by 3 players. Let's suppose also the solo player is vastly mechanically and strategically better than the 3 that jumped them. If most skills (or impactful ones) are aoe based (or the games has many ways to iframe / dodge in a relatively frequent manner, like sub 3s cooldown), the solo player might be able to win the encounter if he outplays his opponents, or has the tools to do so, whereas if the game is more bursty or with lots of single target skills, the 3 players will just press their buttons and stat check the solo player with him/her feeling frustrated they didn't have a chance to begin with.
The same can be extrapolated to a small group of players being zerged by a mega raid or guild.
If the game boils down to more numbers = you win, it removes a big part of the risk from the big party and hope from the smaller party.
I strongly believe both aoe based combat and either uncapped targets within the aoe damage spells or it scaling with the number of enemies hit solves the zerging problem many games suffer from, as well as introduces a risk factor to the people bringing more players as well as more excitement from the overall playerbase in general knowing there is hope to turn the tables and outplay opponents regardless of group size
As for visibility I believe all AoEs should be visible, maybe playing on the contrast or brightness depending on the skill impact be it friendly or enemy.
2. In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
Abilities in my opinion must be telegraphed to all parties while they are casting, and maybe balance them on the cast time rather than visibility
4. Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
Nope, all the above also applies to a certain degree to PvE, and gives a chance to shotcallers to see what abilities the dps and tanks are casting visually for example, but there must be an option to tune them down or turn them off for players that don't like to see them or don't need to see them
5. Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
Yes, I believe Albion Online does it, and it being a mainly pvp focused game combat is very readable
so, i think its standard to indicate big damage more prominentely than lets say a DoT puddle.
depending on the spell there can also be a little time before the enemy sees the danger zone. im thinking of spells that take long (4 sec or something) to take effect. you have to predict the enemy but the enemy gets only like 2 sec reaction time. still enough warning to avoid it, but there should be a chance to hit the enemy.
I however would love to see an indication on ohw far i can cast my AoE, so i can see if im in range and dont have to guess.
Realy impactfull abilities like a long ranged aimed stun should be visible to your group, so you can utillize it even without voice chat comunication.
AoE abilities should be treated with more care than they are in most modern MMORPGs. In many games today, AoEs are so ubiquitous that they have lost their strategic value. I believe AoE should be rare and only available to classes or builds where it makes thematic sense, rather than every class having an AoE just for the sake of balance. Just as not every class needs crowd control or self-healing, not every class needs an AoE.
In PvP: Telegraphing AoEs is crucial for fair competition in PvP, but this should be balanced against skill. Highly impactful abilities, like large-scale AoEs (think Meteor Storm from Ragnarok Online), should absolutely be telegraphed in a way that gives players a chance to respond or avoid. However, smaller or quicker AoEs (such as a cleave ability like in classic World of Warcraft) don’t need the same level of visibility. The key is that the bigger and more dangerous the AoE, the clearer its warning should be.
Clarity of AoEs for Enemies and Allies: AoEs should be clear enough to react to without being overwhelming or distracting. In PvP, this is especially important since fights are dynamic and telegraphing too much can detract from the pace of combat. In PvE, this can be toned down a bit—friendly players should have a general awareness of where AoEs land, but it doesn’t need to be overly dramatic unless it’s a boss or high-impact ability.
PvE Considerations: In PvE, AoEs have their place in both group and solo play, but I would prefer to see them as more of a tactical option than a default for every class. Limiting AoE encourages more strategic gameplay, with players needing to position themselves properly or deal with enemies one-on-one. Having AoE be an 'everybody has it' thing dilutes the unique role each class or player should bring to the table.
Examples from Other Games: For a well-done, thematic AoE, take Meteor Storm from Ragnarok Online. It fits the archetype of a powerful mage, it’s visually impactful, and it feels like it carries weight. Compare that to something simpler like a cleave attack in classic WoW, where a warrior’s swing hits multiple enemies in front of them. It’s a small AoE that fits the physicality of the class without overdoing it.
In summary, AoE should feel special, not something to be spammed or expected in every situation. Limiting its use across classes or skills keeps it meaningful and more rewarding when used effectively.
Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are a common staple in MMORPG combat. We’re curious to know what your thoughts are on AoE abilities and the way they’re displayed.
They're very fun to use, but gets too powerfull if it can do everything a single target spell can do but spread. The way they display on the field should also be clear as day. A good obvious line/circle to show where you will start taking damage.
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
Any burst damage AoE, like a meteor for example. Anything chip damage-like spells, like a blizzard for example is fine to have appear without a telegraphed circle of impact beforehand.
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?]
As clear as can be. Either through making enemy vfx abilities a different color all together or having an extremely well distinct colored line/circle.
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
No. Friendly/party/raid AoE's that do not damage you should keep the original vfx colors/line colors that it originally has. Anything enemy to your character should have a different vfx/line color.
Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
Funnily enough New World of all games had pretty clear distinctions between friendly and enemy AoE's through the use of bright line colors, but left the vfx of the actualy skill untouched. It could sometimes lead to having to do a second take and turning of camera's to verify if it's a hostile AoE or not.
Any healing AoE also had a green tange to the borders, instead of a neutral white.
Misc
Consistency in these indicators is also a must. Having a distinct red border on your blizzard but not on a lightning orb rolling your way because it doesn't fit the vibe is bad. In the last mage showcase thingy (A2 midnight magic preview) the lightning orb gets cast (14:51) but it doesn't really have "distinct" hitbox borders.
Here is my take on the AOE subject. I have about 9000 hours in World of Warcraft, where i have also dabbled a few hundred hours in other MMOORPG like Final Fantasy XIV (Online) , Lost ark, New World and so on:
- Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are a common staple in MMORPG combat. We’re curious to know what your thoughts are on AoE abilities and the way they’re displayed.
This differ in PVE and PVP scenarios in my opinion, since in PVP it is crucial for the enemy to be able to dodge AOE spells like roots, huge damage and other crowd control. In PVE this is more a personal enjoyment and indicator for spell effects, but also good to know for teammates example the tanks, such they can manipulate and control the NPC target/enemy's will stay inside AOE DOT or such.
- In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
As i mentioned i feel the necessary effect should be the ones that can effect the combat were skill is a factor for dodging etc. Example i have is a short video for the spell in WOW called Ring of Frost below, where it is a satisfying animation were you "build" the rune were the enemy have the ability to react and dodge it. If this spell did not have a cast animation, the root will instantly spawn under the enemy were they could not react.
- How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
I think an option to adjust the visually would be desired. Where you could turn the slider up if you have a beefy enough PC to look at all the cool effects and animations. On the other side you can turn down the slider if your PC is struggling, or it becomes really cluttered with spells so it affects the ability to see the fight and dodge mechanics yourself.
- Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
The main difference between PVP and PVE is the telegraphed portion, were boss mechanics of course need to have good telegraphs to make the fight skill based and fun (without needing addons, cough). Were friendly players spells or effect should be able to turn down with a slider to a bare minimum were it can still effect the outcome of the fight. An example of a very satisficing spell in Lost ark is linked aswell, showing a well timed and impactful spell that i believe will add enjoyment for the player, but is not needed for friendly's to see. Another spell is Arcane Orb from WOW, where for the player and in PVP the full effect shows with the big rings that is the hitbox. But for teammates only the small orb in the middle is visible.
For PVP i think the spells and effect need to have the same minimum requirement where the enemy's need to be able to react of AOE spells, but this requirement should be a higher threshold as AOE slows for a pack in a dungeon is not that important in PVE, as the slow could be in PVP. Another spell from WOW called Arcanosphere with a very long 4 second cast that is somewhat visible, since it is a very hard hitting channeled spell with a small knockback included (This is a PVP spell, only usable were PVP is enabled), is also required to be able for dodging in pvp..
- Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
Yes! Even tho i am not a content creator at all, i will add videos linked below where the wow videos are small clip from me, and the Lost Ark ability is from there sorceress homepage.
Hope this helps as i am very intrigued by the potential of this game and the team! Keep up the good work and thank you for listening to the community!
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?Not all need to be nor should they be. The more powerful ones should be, high damage and CC. This can be in the form of channels/charge ups, projectiles and/or graphics indicating when the ability goes off. How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?Clear and defined areas and VFX is important for PvE and PvP so they can be easily distinguishable by players. Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting? No not really. Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them! League of Legends does this well.
In PVP, I only need to see any outlined area if it's indicating a persistent effect. I need to move out of that area (or stay away from it). However, there's no need to show me an area that a mage is targeting before the spell is cast. A casting animation is sufficient to know that something is coming.
In PVE, it's different. I definitely want to see an indication of where a boss is about to drop an auto-kill AoE attack.
Whatever you do, please don't make AoE attacks the default strategy for dealing with more than one target. They should be situational attacks for dealing with hordes.
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
I guess the huge really powerful ones. But, part of the skill in PvP is recognising what the other player is using and reacting to it. I'm confident you'll sort this one out yourselves.
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
AoEs should always be visible, that way you know where you can move and can sort out your positioning. If it's a damaging AoE you can keep clear, if it's a support AoE you can move into it. Can't do that if you can't see it.
Only thing is that the effects shouldn't be too high that you can't see any of the players running around in it, or too bright that it just consumes everything you need to see and react to.
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
Nope. I want to see where my group's doing damage, I want to see where there might be synergies I can use. I want to see where my Cleric and Bard have thrown some AoE healing/buffs down.
You've not let us down so far. Keep doing what you're doing!
AoE's are awesome but they shouldn't be the go to in all circumstances or it becomes a boring default. So some limits are in order, for example:
When fighting a single mob, AoE shouldn't be doing competitive damage, even when it's DoT.
Smarter mobs should try to avoid AoE's or run out of them.
Put a hard cap on maximum targets as with the bard's buffs
If possible cros class combos are great
Make AoE's more expensive in mana/stamina etc
As for telegraphs, I also think GW2 is the best example of how to do it. Green is good, red is bad and purple are mechanics. They even made their AoE target previews accesible to colorblind people, at release, by differentiating the edges. In certain fights, there are attacks that home in on players, as indicated by a slowly filling up circle beneath their feet that follows them. To avoid the attack you need to dodge at the moment the circle fills up. They
FF14 Online has AOE, Cone, Straight Line, Rectangle attacks displayed as fairly solid yellow indicators. Different enemy attacks overlap each other, which gives you an easy idea of where to avoid. Just avoid the yellow. Ally AOE's are green, so you know its okay to stand in them. Ally AOE's trump enemy AOE's and are displayed above the enemy AOE's. In League of Legends Ally AOE's are displayed with normal textures, or a blue outline, enemy AOE's displayed with a red outline. In Ashes, it seems like the Blue versus Red AOE's is currently used.
Most notable is the Tank Wall ability that has been displayed as a giant blue wall or red wall depending on Ally versus Enemy. I don't like the saturated color display for this ability. It's too overpowering and contrasting to the world around you. A colored outline at the bottom of the wall would suffice. That way we can see the color of the wall itself. I want to be able to see what the wall is made of, maybe in different landscapes the wall is made out of different materials (sandstone, obsidian, ice, etc.).
In PvP, anything with a cast timer that creates an AOE should be telegraphed. Just like when a boss charges up an AOE it telegraphs that AOE is coming (I'm thinking of FF14 again). Some people might worry about the enemy being able to identify a sneaky mage trying to explode an entire area. But even with telegraphed AOE's I argue that in PvP you may have no idea WHO is casting the AOE given the sheer number of players, but at least you won't be able to have 10 mages cast an eruption spell without the opposing force knowing where not to stand.
When it comes to how clearly AOEs should be to enemy or friendly players, I think enemy AOEs should have a greater visual on the screen than the friendly players. A friendly players AOE won't hurt you so it isn't as imperative that you see it, versus the enemy's AOE Will hurt you. You could even talk about sliders in the settings that change how much visuals you see for AOE indicators. Giving players more options. There needs to be a difference between how ally and enemy is displayed because in the heat of battle when a visual is displayed on screen I need to reflexively react differently to an ally AOE vs an Enemy AOE.
In PvE I think AOE indicators should be the same as when in PvP. Because won't there be the chance for PvP in Any PvE zone? So the AOE's should always be displayed as PvP AOEs. It should always be the same if that makes sense.
Like mentioned above, I like the AOE indicators of Final Fantasy 14 online. I even like them in Smite the 3D MOBA style game. In Smite the AOE's are clearly visible but can be cast rather quickly. They always have a delay to spawn so you aren't SOL but you don't always have loads of time to respond to an AOE about to erupt.
Comments
Feedback to Visuals is described in the other questions.
I share the concerns of some other comments about AoE beiing too opressive. especially in PvP.
my suggestion would be that AoE Dots scale with 100% of the dmg that single target AoEs do since NPCs and Players can walk out of it.
for instant AoEs i would do 40% dmg of an single target ability + 20% per target hit up to 5 times which results in 140% when NPCs got stacked by a tank or Players stacked too much.
2. In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
AoE Dots or enemy Hots should have a clear indicator so Players can avoid them or push enemys out of them.
Instant AoE such as Meteor that have an wind up time should give an slight indicator before they hit. could be something like a glowing ring but immersive so it doesnt break the worlds athmosphere.
for instant AoE without wind up time such as Consecrating Wave is no telegraph needed. for those skills its just important that the visual effect matches the hit area.
3. How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
as i read the other comments i realised that we all forgot color blindness. so in order to be accessible AoE should have the three color blindess versions covered. im not sure how it could work but if its possible to make skills change their animation colour in those modes would eliminate a lot of telegraphic animations on the ground. secondly i read that having different indicators for different skills besides colour would be very helpful. as example a circle from Divine Flare could have different design that other AoEs. im pretty sure making them change based on friend or enemy is pretty difficult coding wise.
to differentiate a friendly and an enemy Divine Flare: its probably the easiest solution to make color coded grounds but if changing the color of the skill itself slightly regarding the color blindness idea. that would be great. for instance a Tankwall could be grey green for friendlys and grey red for enemys. ofc there are more options needed to make it visible for everyone.
last point for that topic is effect opacity and setting options.
there are a lot of games that look great visually but people play it on low graphics to be competitive. i see that as an issue. i would like if increasing performance by lowering settings doesnt give a competetive edge. otherwise the nice graphics arent all that important in the first place.
effect opacity that is scalable seems to me like a good option to increase performance and customize the gameplay experience. all effects should still be visible on low opacity. just less intense. some other comment already mentioned that it would be good to have different sliders for own effects, friendly effects and enemy effects.
4. Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
mostly no difference. Firebrand was a good example. the AoEs where clear because of wind ups or leaving effects on the ground. just make the visuals be the exact hit area
5. Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
I think a middle ground between GW2 and Archeage would be good if the skill color solution doesnt work. the AoEs are clearly visible a bit more immersive in Archeage but for my taste too flashy while GW2 has them toned down but less immersive.
since there where already good GW2 links anly one for Archeage:
thx for asking for so specific feedback. much appreciated!
I think AoE abilities since the first gen MMO's have moved too far into "actiony" territory with GTAoE's, I like how it was done more back in the day, where you'd target someone and the AoE would be centered around them, or you'd have PBAoE's centered on the caster. I don't have a problem generally with how they're displayed, though I haven't played some of the more recent games, for obvious reasons.
2. In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
I think it's fine to more or less telegraph them by being able to look at the caster and see what they're casting. In terms of actually showing the area on the ground where the AoE is going to hit, that should be reserved only for very high damage spells that are meant for area denial more than anything else. Then the caster won't mind so much if people are getting out of the way of them.
In terms of showing the area on the ground where they'll land for most AoE's in PvP, that's a hard no, as it's difficult enough to get value out of AoE's already in PvP, especially lingering AoE"s which have no CC attached to them, since people can just avoid them (or get out of them) in most situation easily enough.
Centering AoE's on an enemy makes it so you're likely to at least land it on one person if nothing else, mitigating your loss of value if you miss the crowd. There can also be incentive for players to group up, like we saw with the Bard's "dancing" mechanics, creating a nice risk/reward scenario for those mechanics.
3. How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
To enemies, I outlined my thoughts on that above. To friendlies, I think beneficial AoE's should be clearly marked on the ground to give the option to friendlies to be there when they land. In terms of friendlies seeing AoE's that impact your enemies, I think it could be an option but generally, I feel like that's unnecessary visual clutter, and there's already enough of that in most games.
4. Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
Yes, my thoughts are that in PvE, it just doesn't really matter because it's PvE. You're going to win one way or the other the vast majority of the time.
5. Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
I guess DAoC did a good job with this, especially with most AoE's being centered on the enemy or being PBAoE instead of GTAoE. WoW also did fine just in terms of the visual presentation of abilities.
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
- (using blizzard spell from wow as reference) I would think removing the well defined circle and just showing the snow or ice itself could add some real depth. When I think about pvp and wether or not to Include myself in it, for a wide range of games. The pvp needs to have so many options that it's difficult to master, thats what makes it worth it. For example I can see why so many people like League of legends, it has a bajillion character options to play. When it comes to ashes I see where the 64 possible combo classes could pose some interesting pvp encounters, yet I can't imagine most will be used for serious pvping. Where I'm sure there will be endless rouges rolling both primary and secondary. A spell like a fan of knives that deals DMG but maybe doesn't have a cc should be seen and enjoyed to cast just as much as Blizzard that has a slow. But I would prefer more difficulty by not adding a giant white or blue ring on the floor for Blizzard and instead increasing the haze within the spell to make it more noticeable as to not get cc'd. The idea of having spells that stand out more, or even alot less, in certain environments is exciting to think about. I mean, to be a earth bender in the air temple should pose challenges..or advantages. Mmo players want to feel like we are living the characters, we don't need arrows telling us where spells are, surely we could benefit from arrows or distinct circles, but I can't imagine we would miss them when we get lost in the game.
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
-I think the player should have the choice to turn down spell effects from others, friendly or foe independently. I would rather see me spells being impactful rather than anothers in a raid. If I'm pvping I would like to see the wall my teammate just put up for us, or a stun thats about to hit.
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
-This whole topic has to be the same across the board. In pvp it's helpful to see aoe, in pve I would rather be able to see the AOE of the boss fight rather my party. So it has to be adjustable to make everyone happy.
Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
-I just started playing the witcher. Their is a cutscene right near the begining where the mage lady (forget her name) is caught in-between a battle. The spells she casted gave me the feeling some of the original wow expansion scenes did. It looked good, it's what I would love to click a set of buttons on my keyboard and make happen within the environment. She used some earth bending spell and to think that I could do that in a game where I feel like I'm actually ripping the floor out from underneath myself or another would be awesome. It relates to every other spell also. Cloudy environment and a rogue uses fan of knives and it blows back the air that begins slowly filling the space again. Maybe cast some vortex and it picks up that ashes from the land in one area as compared to leafs from another. Making spells have some interactions with the environment...Big aspirations. Keep up the good work!
Please don't draw red circles on the floor for people to dodge, players will learn with practice and the effects of the skills are more than enough clue.
Firebrand is great, the siege dragons from A1 were great too, same with ranger and bard aoe skills.
I think that Ashes really needs strong and uncapped AOE skills if you want smaller groups to be able to do anything against zergs and tactics to matter. Player collision and AOEs are a game changer for PVP.
I know that a lot of people complain about visual clutter in big battles, but I think that it's just another part of battle and that it adds another layer of complexity to it. Any real combat can be confusing and chaotic, it's the nature of the beast. Now Imagine the seer madness of a massive battle with fantasy essence infused warriors with superhuman strength and living artillery in mage shape capable of unleashing torrents of natural disasters one after another. It should be noisy, chaotic and overwhelming as hell, learning to navigate that is another skill and visibility is just another aspect to consider in battle.
-In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
Again, I think that giving the skill a tell if you are paying attention is nice specially for really powerful effects, of course you should also be able to see ongoing effects like a blizzard, a field of fire or wizard spin to win, but nothing beyond that. No red circles/forms filling themselves to tell you how and when to dodge please.
-How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
I guess it depends on the AOE, some skills might be more subtle, but I think most of them should be pretty obvious. The difficult part is how to differentiate friendly from enemy effects. Maybe give ally effect a characteristic tint? For example in darktide friendly flames on the ground have a golden hue, it's not perfect but it helps.
Another option that could be very interesting if you are willing to test it is to activate friendly fire and force people to be careful with their aim and decision making. (Friendly fire ain't)
-Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
No, not at all.
-Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
BDO is a game with a lot of problems, but one thing they did very well was BDO witch/wizard on release, before the awakened weapons.
It's a class designed for AOE with very little single target skills. The spells felt satisfying to use and flowed beautifully from one to another. Big areas, with good casting times and CDs, good damage and cc, visual effects and impact with some terrifying spells on long cooldowns that really helped shaping the battlefield. Your really felt like a fantasy wizard.
Another thing that they did incredibly well was the targeting. I don't know how they made it, but with some practice you were able to place spells with pixel precision without any reticle or marker on the ground.
I know it's old as dirt and really unrealistic, but I also enjoyed the old Lineage 2 warlord/dreadnought gameplay a lot both in pve and mass pvp. AOE farming in l2 in general was pretty fun.
There is also a really old isometric mmo called Helbreath that did AOE spells really well, for me one of the first if not the first true action combat in an MMO, skill was the most important factor by far. They also did something really interesting with spells. By default friendly fire was active, you could turn on a "safe mode" that made your offensive spells ignore your allies, but at the expense of an increase in mana cost.
The game is so visually interesting and abilities are so intricate I think some sort of obvious communication of unfriendly aoe has to be transmitted (edges being red and pulsing, a sound effect you can enable that beeps at you, etc.) This also helps a ton with a few different issues such as color blindness and when spells happen to be of a similar hue as the terrain or the clutter of the terrain interferes with particles related to the aoe.
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
Ones that have a significant impact should be telegraphed. Those with a really long cd that have a high burst, long duration or persistent cc, or generally high damage. Anything that you have given a long cast time, cooldown, or otherwise create a limiter on mechanically should have a telegraph. Any aoe that is nearly a kill on it's own or assuredly a kill in combo with a team member following up.
It is a matter of consistency on the risk v. reward design philosophy and pillar of what makes a skill shot engaging for both the target and caster. It feels rewarding for the caster because it has a cast time, a telegraph, cooldown, and costly on mana (or some combination) that's a big risk. It is engaging and exciting for a target because they have the opportunity to respond by avoid the damage. It is engaging and exciting for team members because they can set this ability up through coordination.
Otherwise, there's a powerful ability with little to no reply from the target and which quickly feels frustrating and hopeless to deal with.
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
I feel like in a game where your have a lot of amazing but cluttering graphics it is recommended to differentiate them somehow quickly and easily by others. Also, given it is a game of risk v. reward where you want people thinking about the choices they make moment to moment... why wouldn't you add this layer? Immersion maybe? How does anyone learn in Verra to know the ice storm in front of them is okay to enter? There has to be a reason and a way or magic/aoe wouldn't be the useful in warfare.
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
To me the design philosophy where possible should be consistent. Part of an MMO is creating a signature experience which should follow between different types of content otherwise you start disconnecting players from the "escape" of the game by them seeing an inconsistency and having to recalibrate based on the part of the game they're engaging in. To me, the ideal is to make the experience seemless.
I could see some very selective narrative and mechanical exceptions but I'd trust you all to apply that with your best judgement.
Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
I don't have the time at this moment to link any but I will maybe come back and add some.
AoE abilities are a core concept of mmos and need to be displayed very clearly for solo and group PvE situations very clear undercurrent translucent markings should be displayed brightly for those of your party and self in your party. With settings to minimize it to only self. It’s important to create a sense of timing and understanding of technical spacing on skills this way and will show through high saturation of multiple abilities for a sense of structure.
Like in any game, a strong PvP stabilizes a game and adds infinite amounts of culture and lifetime to a game; I believe this is the most important question of all.
In PvP the competitive nature of the game and nurture of skill is more apparent and enjoyable when there are nearly no AoE markings from your opponent forcing players to learn what abilities look like prior to being cast/mid cast which Allows game knowledge to shine through in PvP play. However, it’s important to balance this in Zerg gameplay so I appreciate how the question is phrased, any ability that requires the opponent to stand still or very long cast times that have the ability to one shot multiple players could be the exception and have a more clear ground telegraph whether that be via ability sparks or an actual ground marking. Please take this into consideration and ensure PvP has a larger skill ceiling by allowing a very limited or no telegraphs that are from opponents.
Friendly players should always be able to clearly see what you’re doing to help group play and even as a tool to help teach those in your party if you see them doing something sub-par with a skill, or where best for them to place a certain aoe, so very for friendly grouped players.
Enemy players again shouldn’t have many or any telegraphs to grow skill ceiling and allow players to have a reason to learn all the abilities natural setups from playing with them or through alts to learn what players might do in PvP without the telegraph help.
I’m sure nearly everyone would agree especially with the direction AoC has been taking; in PvE and raid settings seeing all players around them on a distance slider and a on/off option for different types of content, and computer strengths.
very important to see all abilities marked on ground in PvE.
Guild Wars 2 has probably the best example of PvP and PvE AoE, also not that it’s my favourite but ESO has very great PvP balance if you’re interested.
Maybe AOE buffs can apply to all citizens of your node within range of you.
But since it is a game we let that fact slip and burry it deep down where noone can find it.
i would like to see that AOE and other CC that certain effects effecting the full screen or the movementpossebilitys of the characters. So that:
- Snare makes the Player unable to move around the visible field (only Head turning but not body, no looking behind)
- Sleep lets the screen getting cloudy and blurry
- Blinding makes the screen Black
Dmg AOE the effects ive seen were nice but there is also the Dmg vs Other players if enabled or no dmg if not enabled or in groupe. Its a strange consept specialy for a game where peoples mention to have a impactfull combat, there those AOE's feels ofplace. If in addition to DMG AOE the caster also applys a buff to groupe/raidmates to withstand the AOE dmg that however would open new tactics in PVP encouters where a enemy AOE can be Nullefied if the timeing is correct so to give the duff against that specific AOE DMG.
But how far will you go to have an immersive and impactfull combat system?
Also a system that doesnt stack 2 idendical AOE types so that 2 of the same AOE doesnt deal x2 dmg, maybe having a system that overrides the AOE with a stronger one if a 2nd of the same is activated while the other is still running so not only expanding the time but also maybe increase the effected zone or dmg it does. So that Twinclasses in the same Raid or groupe making additional sense. but with a limitation on how many times the existing AOE can be powered up and extending the time.
For example:
4 Mages useing Magma Field
Mage 1 Casts Field lasts for 8.1 Sec
Mage 2 Casts after the aprearance (to see where it is) casttime 2.4 sec Magmafield getting bigger, hotter and time is expanded by 2 sec (Tier 2 Field lasts for 8.1-2.4+2= 7.7sec)
Mage 3 Casts after 3 sec of aprearance from Mage 1 skill also expand size & dmg and expanse time by 2 sec
(Tier 3 Field Last for 8.1+2-3-2.4+2= 6.7sec)
Mage 4 was to slow and couldnt make it in time
but a AOE is not Stackeble but Fuseble So working with your mates and coordinate your attacs Brings benefits.
Thats what i would love to see for AOE
Fuseing insted of Stacking
Giving Buff for mates to not be effected by it
and CC and CC AOE haveing an effect on the full screen (visible field not UI stuff)
Whether it's PvE or PvP, part of the fun of learning a fight is learning to read the movement and abilities of your opponent and how to defend/punish/capitalize/counter against them. AoE or otherwise, skill animations should be unique/characterizing enough to stoke informed decision-making and cultivate reactive (even predictive) gameplay while using as few ground target markers as possible. Organic tells/cues are always more interesting than don't stand in red.
With that in mind:
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
All high impact/tide turning abilities should be easily readable. Big heals, defense cooldowns, CC's, executes, big damage etc.
Which AoE abilities should be telegraphed to friendlies?
Big heals, defense cooldowns, buffs
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
Not exactly sure how to interpret the question so my answer will regard visibility. All skill animations outside of filler damage should be clear for all, with sliders for intensity/opacity of other players effects (separate options for enemy/friendly). AoE Ground target markers should be customizable in intensity and color for friendly/enemy player/enemy NPC
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
No. But to add, 1-shots from mobs/bosses, Tankbusters and any mechanics that result in instant death (terrain removal, etc.) should always be telegraphed.
- Shaiya circa 2007-2008 - Guild Wars 2 circa 2014-2016 - ArcheAge circa 2016-2018
- Black Desert 2019-2024 - ESO 2021-2024 - FFXIV(fake pvp)2021-2022
Both of the suggested images are lacking in clarity
1 doesn't tell you anything at all about the location or impact of the AoEs. 2 doesn't have visuals that match the damage source.
Color language in MMOs is fairly universal. Green is good, yellow is a warning notice, and red is active damage. Other colors tend to translate more loosely with a general 'vivid = dangerous'.
Making the 'bad ground' a blue wave texture just causes visual confusion, because the soft shapes tell players it's neutral or harmless, and the color echoes that assumption (it's literally mimicking water, the most neutral thing in the world). It would be shocking to walk into something with that effect and start taking damage. If there wasn't a caption, I think most people would assume that's a cleansing area where you go to cleanse that AoE tracking under the character's feet.
At least with those many circles, I know what each one is doing. Green, gold, and blue are safe to stand in. Red is active damage and orange is an ability about to land.
All you need is a bit of transparency on allied effects with a Blue Aura/Highlight/Tint for people in your party or raid, and a Green Aura/Highlight/Tint for non-flagged (Green) players outside your party that are not using force attack on their AoEs (that deal 0 damage). Hostile AoE effects can remain as they are with no issues.
Staples are: Glacial Storm, Earthquake, Tornado, Thunderstorm, Meteor, Rain of Fire, Black Hole, Vortex
Display: When you use the ability you get a circle/box/line on your mouse cursor to indicate the range of the AOE. The visuals of the spell should be reasonably clear without having the need for green or red lines on the ground after it's cast.
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
None, if it does not make sense in the "lore" of the spell. Example can be Black Hole. Say it has a ramp up time of 2 seconds, and before it deals damage it warps the surrounding area, letting people know that its about to explode. Or Meteor that casts a feigth shadow on the ground before it lands. Only way so see if an AOE is incomming is to watch the caster / castbar. AOE is usually relativly low damage wise, so people can easily just walk out of it.
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
You should not in my opinion. PvP is going to be chaotic. Only option I can think of which does not involve green and red circles on the ground is an option to "Tint hostile and friendly spells". Which would tint friendly AOE slightly greener, and hostile AOE red/purple (just example colors).
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
Yes. In PvE mechanics can be a bit clearer, but not green and red circles. It breaks the whole fantasy.
Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
Im a big fan of earlier versions of World of Warcraft. Spell visuals are clean and not overwhelming unless there are a lot of players spamming it. You cant see any indication of friendly or enemy AOE, which can make it difficult, and thats how it should be. In my opinion.
1. Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are a common staple in MMORPG combat. We’re curious to know what your thoughts are on AoE abilities and the way they’re displayed.
The only two universal rules I would apply, are that the VFX should match the hitbox and duration of AoEs as closely as possible, and that the intensity of VFX should match their power level/importance:
* VFX should have an appropriate wind-up, to go with the character animation or cast time.
* Instantaneous AoEs should have a snappy impact point, at the same time as the actual hitbox hit, and then a quick dispersal depending on how impactful the ability was meant to be.
-- Spam-able AoEs should get off the screen ASAP, because they have low power/relevance for the player.
-- Long, powerful cooldowns can linger for a second, just to lend weight/satisfaction and (for PvP) to help identify "wtf just one-shot me?"
* Persistent AoEs should also have a slightly snappy impact that matches the first tick of the effect.
* Again, the persistent visuals should match the power of the ability, with brighter/more opaque VFX reserved for long-cooldown abilities.
* CRITICAL: If the AoE is something you might want to move into/out of, then it needs a very clear border for the duration of it's effect. (This is less important for instant AoEs, but would still be nice if it doesn't interfere with other priorities.)
* And finally, the persistent visuals should start to dissipate before the effect ends, such that it is fully/mostly off the screen as soon as the last tick hits.
2. In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
Two interpretations of "telegraph" in that question...
As explained in the previous section, everything should have clear visuals and AoE borders when they are actually hitting you.
But if we're talking about a warning telegraph before the hit, then I think this should be determined on a case-by-case basis. Most abilities should have some kind of tell, showing where an AoE is about to land and allowing for counter-play. Like a meteor falling from the sky, or cracks forming in the ground during the cast/wind-up animation, or a trap that was visibly placed a few seconds ago. And anything without a built-in telegraph, should probably be given a standard colored-shape ground-telegraph (like for a hail of arrows that is about to land).
Although some AoEs could be exempt from this, if they are meant to be particularly sneaky/fast (maybe like a summoner/rogue using a zero-damage snare/root to set up for their other abilities), or if they just aren't very important and rarely need to be dodged (spam-able low-damage AoEs).
3. How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
This is probably where there will be a lot of different answers, and "it depends" answers. And a lot of that should be left up to the player, via optional settings that can simplify or hide different categories of VFX. For me though, I would prefer:
Obviously I should see my own AoEs with full VFX.
Similar to the last question, anything that I might want to dodge (or block) should be visible to me. Instants can have full VFX (because they don't block vision for very long, and the weaker ones should already have negligible visual impact), as well as the more powerful lingering effects (which I want to be highly visible, so I can get out of them).
HOWEVER, I expect that PvP will be hectic and crowded, and I don't want two dozen AoEs crowding up the screen constantly. So I think most lingering AoEs should be deemed "irrelevant", and their VFX should be simplified to a thin border and nothing else (GW2 example in the final question). That way, they are still somewhat visible, but do not crowd the screen.
(To enable this, the devs would have to make some tough decisions about how to categorize the "powerful" and "irrelevant" AoEs. Sorry.
By default, ally AoEs can follow the same paradigm, with the only difference being that the simplified AoEs should have a different color border. That being said, I'm a little bit less concerned about allied VFX, so I might want to switch to even more simplified (or invisible) VFX in very large battles.
In any case, I think there should be a decent amount of options available for people to choose from in different cases, for all these permutations (full, simplified, invisible; ally or enemy; instant or lingering; powerful or irrelevant).
4. Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
The options should be the same in PvE, but I would likely choose more full VFX settings for my allies, since there won't be a ton of enemy AoEs competing for visual real-estate.
...That is, assuming it is easy enough to switch VFX settings between PvE and PvP contexts. If it's possible, I would like a system that automatically switches between "normal" settings and "simplified" settings (both of which I have to set up) whenever a certain threshold of enemy combatants is in the area or in-combat with me. That way, I would have full VFX most of the time in PvE and small-scale PvP, but larger PvP battles (like unexpected contests over open-world raids) automatically trigger the simplified settings.
5. Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
[To be added at a later time.]
Okay, here's a screenshot I stole from Reddit of a huge PvE fight in GW2. You can see the boss AoEs with their fire effect in them, but most of the player AoEs are rendered simply as a colored circle (different colors for different elemental types). Aside from that, I don't think GW2 has very good visual clarity though, so that's just an example to show what I'm talking about for toning down all the excess VFX in a big battle. Enemy AoEs and mechanics are more important than ally AoEs, so those VFX should be first in-line to be simplified.
And these are the options that FFXIV provides to tone down it's VFX. Because FFXIV has very beautiful, and bright, and LONG duration VFX for most abilities, it's very common to turn off the VFX for your party members so you don't see 8 explosions on top of the boss every 2 seconds. I don't think AoC will have VFX that are nearly that obnoxious, but I do think these options are perfect for tailoring the VFX to the player's preferences.
Lastly, here's an article from League of Legends about it's visual design and visual clarity. You can scroll half-way down to the VFX section, and it talks about everything I care about with examples and everything. Honestly I could have probably just posted that and saved a lot of typing. https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/dev/clarity-in-league/
1.limting the amount of players it could hit. that made it so that the ones that dint have it had to be avoided. fx slow and or very telegraphed attack.
2. AoE had their own distinct look. if it was red it was enemy and any any other color was friendly
3. ther was allways a way to counter a AoE. Fx there was a lot of AoE cc but there was also party wide CC immunity buff for a couple of seconds.
@Syblitrh
Like, I'd love to see most of this implemented across skill design AND UI design.
However:
I don't fully understand this and I don't think looking at it longer or reading the text again will help me understand it, because I honestly don't think all of it makes sense:
Why are the red bars specifically to the left and right of the player?
What's the point of the dots surrounding the player turning red while you're within the particles? Why wouldn't you know that you're standing within the particles?
I think what would make more sense is to use the colours of the dots/wave animations as well as the cone-shaped bars to distinguish which type of effect the player is in.
Further, I would use the left/right indication to point into the direction of the centre of the AoE ability, so the player knows which direction they need to move away from in order to exit that effect.
Hey:), My main interest for giving an unfinished sketch idea, was to leave it open to interpretations and exploration based on the sketch, where devs can expand it with their own vision using this start point. Giving a full explained system, sometimes it kills the motivation and pride of the dev, as it would be a copy paste, which in most cases it will be skipped. Is just a spark, that's all. And yes your point is also good
Aside from recognizable casting animation? The ones which are still in effect, being maintained / channelled by the caster and so obviously still dangerous areas. Lava pools, poisonous gas clouds, earth shaking ground, icy surfaces, necrotic globes of darkness, wells of healing light ...
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
In table top D&D this is not really a question: a fireball engulf all those in its AoE, be they friends or foes. It's the job of the casters to position their spells at the right place. By getting rid of friendly fire (pun intended), most AoE traded some potency for ease of use, and what could be powerful situational spells / abilities became part of a normal rotation and safer to position, there is still some skill required to put them at most efficient spot, but it's easier.
Anyway... As per my answer to the first question, only the AoE still in effect need to be clearly displayed. The player maintaining the effect should be easy to identify. Now, it's up to the everyone involved to know who's a friend and who's an enemy. Granted, in huge battles such as castle or node sieges it won't be that evident a task, but I think that only accentuate how chaotic and risky such event should feel.
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
No. My view is that PvP and PvE should always be treated the same, as much as it is possible. Players should be considered mobs with a more complex AI. Same kind of abilities. Same mechanics. Same rules.
I'd prefer no early-warning indicators whatsoever. If you get hit, that's okay. You can't control everything; perhaps you should have paid more attention about where your enemies were facing or standing too close to your allies, but really, sometimes you just get hit.
Give players and monsters clear casting animations, and leave the rest for the players to figure out.
UI should give decently clear information about any unclear ongoing sources of damage and CC, not warnings, unless some game design feature absolutely requires warnings as the best way to implement it.
(I'd personally prefer less powerful and shorter effects to receive no 3D indication at all, only combat logs and your buff status bar. Also, your opponents and allies should not have buff status bars, you should figure that information out from 3d animations.)
My main game had roughly 30 different offensive AoE effects across the 5 offensive classes, easily 10 of them high-impact massive CC and damage abilities, 5 of them high-impact varied CC, and on top of that another 15+ defensive AoE abilities. All of them were displayed with 3D spell effects only. If the effects have distinguishable colours and clear designs, you really don't need a lot of UI indicators.
Here's an example clip with some of the main warlock abilities at
0:28 (Targeted high-distance, high-area AoE root typhoon - mostly surrounded by allies of the caster, hence few AoE targets),
0:36 (AoE silence around the warlock in dark purple; the range was about 50% higher than visible - you could clarify that with little dots marking the edge of the true area), and
3:30 (high-impact, high-distance, high-area knockdown and damage - shorter and weaker than normal because it's only skilled to a low level)
I think early-warning indicators are a crutch for bad encounter design appealing to a player types who can't handle not being in control, and would rather delude themselves by having more information than than they can actually do anything with.
Good game design lets you figure out most of your information from what you can see happening in 3D.
If indicators are necessary, I hope they remove very little need of players to pay attention to their surroundings and make informed choices in advance about when they are safe to bunch up, and when they need to spread out.
If you can just react to every major AoE threat with a dash because lights flash up a second before it happens, you're not playing against people, and not making skilled game-knowledge-based decisions, you're just playing a rhythm game in a fantasy setting with an illusion of PvP interaction.
First I want to maybe invite a discussion on whether the combat should be more single target focused or AoE focused (as is most spells or most impactful ones for each class).
Disclaimer, the below is purely my opinion and more of an invitation to think about the topic.
I personally believe combat in an MMO should be more aoe focused rather than a select someone and press burst buttons /combo to make him disappear. why ?
AoE based combat is a nice way to blend in action combat elements in the game despite it being tab target at its core although AoC is already implementing this.
When most skills are AoE based, it invites both more group play and ways to mitigate number disadvantages. I can illustrate with an example, let's suppose a player in getting ganked by 3 players. Let's suppose also the solo player is vastly mechanically and strategically better than the 3 that jumped them. If most skills (or impactful ones) are aoe based (or the games has many ways to iframe / dodge in a relatively frequent manner, like sub 3s cooldown), the solo player might be able to win the encounter if he outplays his opponents, or has the tools to do so, whereas if the game is more bursty or with lots of single target skills, the 3 players will just press their buttons and stat check the solo player with him/her feeling frustrated they didn't have a chance to begin with.
The same can be extrapolated to a small group of players being zerged by a mega raid or guild.
If the game boils down to more numbers = you win, it removes a big part of the risk from the big party and hope from the smaller party.
I strongly believe both aoe based combat and either uncapped targets within the aoe damage spells or it scaling with the number of enemies hit solves the zerging problem many games suffer from, as well as introduces a risk factor to the people bringing more players as well as more excitement from the overall playerbase in general knowing there is hope to turn the tables and outplay opponents regardless of group size
As for visibility I believe all AoEs should be visible, maybe playing on the contrast or brightness depending on the skill impact be it friendly or enemy.
2. In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
Abilities in my opinion must be telegraphed to all parties while they are casting, and maybe balance them on the cast time rather than visibility
4. Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
Nope, all the above also applies to a certain degree to PvE, and gives a chance to shotcallers to see what abilities the dps and tanks are casting visually for example, but there must be an option to tune them down or turn them off for players that don't like to see them or don't need to see them
5. Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
Yes, I believe Albion Online does it, and it being a mainly pvp focused game combat is very readable
depending on the spell there can also be a little time before the enemy sees the danger zone. im thinking of spells that take long (4 sec or something) to take effect. you have to predict the enemy but the enemy gets only like 2 sec reaction time. still enough warning to avoid it, but there should be a chance to hit the enemy.
I however would love to see an indication on ohw far i can cast my AoE, so i can see if im in range and dont have to guess.
Realy impactfull abilities like a long ranged aimed stun should be visible to your group, so you can utillize it even without voice chat comunication.
AoE abilities should be treated with more care than they are in most modern MMORPGs. In many games today, AoEs are so ubiquitous that they have lost their strategic value. I believe AoE should be rare and only available to classes or builds where it makes thematic sense, rather than every class having an AoE just for the sake of balance. Just as not every class needs crowd control or self-healing, not every class needs an AoE.
In PvP: Telegraphing AoEs is crucial for fair competition in PvP, but this should be balanced against skill. Highly impactful abilities, like large-scale AoEs (think Meteor Storm from Ragnarok Online), should absolutely be telegraphed in a way that gives players a chance to respond or avoid. However, smaller or quicker AoEs (such as a cleave ability like in classic World of Warcraft) don’t need the same level of visibility. The key is that the bigger and more dangerous the AoE, the clearer its warning should be.
Clarity of AoEs for Enemies and Allies: AoEs should be clear enough to react to without being overwhelming or distracting. In PvP, this is especially important since fights are dynamic and telegraphing too much can detract from the pace of combat. In PvE, this can be toned down a bit—friendly players should have a general awareness of where AoEs land, but it doesn’t need to be overly dramatic unless it’s a boss or high-impact ability.
PvE Considerations: In PvE, AoEs have their place in both group and solo play, but I would prefer to see them as more of a tactical option than a default for every class. Limiting AoE encourages more strategic gameplay, with players needing to position themselves properly or deal with enemies one-on-one. Having AoE be an 'everybody has it' thing dilutes the unique role each class or player should bring to the table.
Examples from Other Games: For a well-done, thematic AoE, take Meteor Storm from Ragnarok Online. It fits the archetype of a powerful mage, it’s visually impactful, and it feels like it carries weight. Compare that to something simpler like a cleave attack in classic WoW, where a warrior’s swing hits multiple enemies in front of them. It’s a small AoE that fits the physicality of the class without overdoing it.
In summary, AoE should feel special, not something to be spammed or expected in every situation. Limiting its use across classes or skills keeps it meaningful and more rewarding when used effectively.
They're very fun to use, but gets too powerfull if it can do everything a single target spell can do but spread. The way they display on the field should also be clear as day. A good obvious line/circle to show where you will start taking damage.
In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
Any burst damage AoE, like a meteor for example. Anything chip damage-like spells, like a blizzard for example is fine to have appear without a telegraphed circle of impact beforehand.
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?]
As clear as can be. Either through making enemy vfx abilities a different color all together or having an extremely well distinct colored line/circle.
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
No. Friendly/party/raid AoE's that do not damage you should keep the original vfx colors/line colors that it originally has. Anything enemy to your character should have a different vfx/line color.
Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
Funnily enough New World of all games had pretty clear distinctions between friendly and enemy AoE's through the use of bright line colors, but left the vfx of the actualy skill untouched. It could sometimes lead to having to do a second take and turning of camera's to verify if it's a hostile AoE or not.
Any healing AoE also had a green tange to the borders, instead of a neutral white.
Misc
Consistency in these indicators is also a must. Having a distinct red border on your blizzard but not on a lightning orb rolling your way because it doesn't fit the vibe is bad. In the last mage showcase thingy (A2 midnight magic preview) the lightning orb gets cast (14:51) but it doesn't really have "distinct" hitbox borders.
- Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are a common staple in MMORPG combat. We’re curious to know what your thoughts are on AoE abilities and the way they’re displayed.
This differ in PVE and PVP scenarios in my opinion, since in PVP it is crucial for the enemy to be able to dodge AOE spells like roots, huge damage and other crowd control. In PVE this is more a personal enjoyment and indicator for spell effects, but also good to know for teammates example the tanks, such they can manipulate and control the NPC target/enemy's will stay inside AOE DOT or such.
- In PvP, which Area of Effect (AoE) abilities, should be telegraphed to enemies?
As i mentioned i feel the necessary effect should be the ones that can effect the combat were skill is a factor for dodging etc. Example i have is a short video for the spell in WOW called Ring of Frost below, where it is a satisfying animation were you "build" the rune were the enemy have the ability to react and dodge it. If this spell did not have a cast animation, the root will instantly spawn under the enemy were they could not react.
- How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
I think an option to adjust the visually would be desired. Where you could turn the slider up if you have a beefy enough PC to look at all the cool effects and animations. On the other side you can turn down the slider if your PC is struggling, or it becomes really cluttered with spells so it affects the ability to see the fight and dodge mechanics yourself.
- Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
The main difference between PVP and PVE is the telegraphed portion, were boss mechanics of course need to have good telegraphs to make the fight skill based and fun (without needing addons, cough). Were friendly players spells or effect should be able to turn down with a slider to a bare minimum were it can still effect the outcome of the fight. An example of a very satisficing spell in Lost ark is linked aswell, showing a well timed and impactful spell that i believe will add enjoyment for the player, but is not needed for friendly's to see. Another spell is Arcane Orb from WOW, where for the player and in PVP the full effect shows with the big rings that is the hitbox. But for teammates only the small orb in the middle is visible.
For PVP i think the spells and effect need to have the same minimum requirement where the enemy's need to be able to react of AOE spells, but this requirement should be a higher threshold as AOE slows for a pack in a dungeon is not that important in PVE, as the slow could be in PVP. Another spell from WOW called Arcanosphere with a very long 4 second cast that is somewhat visible, since it is a very hard hitting channeled spell with a small knockback included (This is a PVP spell, only usable were PVP is enabled), is also required to be able for dodging in pvp..
- Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them!
Yes! Even tho i am not a content creator at all, i will add videos linked below where the wow videos are small clip from me, and the Lost Ark ability is from there sorceress homepage.
Hope this helps as i am very intrigued by the potential of this game and the team! Keep up the good work and thank you for listening to the community!
Videos:
Ring of frost example (WOW):
Arcane orb (WOW):
Arcanosphere (WOW):
Lost ark Doomsday / Meteor:
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?Clear and defined areas and VFX is important for PvE and PvP so they can be easily distinguishable by players.
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting? No not really.
Do you have examples from other games in which AoE abilities are presented in a way you like? If so, please share them! League of Legends does this well.
In PVE, it's different. I definitely want to see an indication of where a boss is about to drop an auto-kill AoE attack.
Whatever you do, please don't make AoE attacks the default strategy for dealing with more than one target. They should be situational attacks for dealing with hordes.
I guess the huge really powerful ones. But, part of the skill in PvP is recognising what the other player is using and reacting to it. I'm confident you'll sort this one out yourselves.
How clearly should AoEs be to enemy and friendly players?
AoEs should always be visible, that way you know where you can move and can sort out your positioning. If it's a damaging AoE you can keep clear, if it's a support AoE you can move into it. Can't do that if you can't see it.
Only thing is that the effects shouldn't be too high that you can't see any of the players running around in it, or too bright that it just consumes everything you need to see and react to.
Do your thoughts differ in a PvE setting?
Nope. I want to see where my group's doing damage, I want to see where there might be synergies I can use. I want to see where my Cleric and Bard have thrown some AoE healing/buffs down.
You've not let us down so far. Keep doing what you're doing!
When fighting a single mob, AoE shouldn't be doing competitive damage, even when it's DoT.
Smarter mobs should try to avoid AoE's or run out of them.
Put a hard cap on maximum targets as with the bard's buffs
If possible cros class combos are great
Make AoE's more expensive in mana/stamina etc
As for telegraphs, I also think GW2 is the best example of how to do it. Green is good, red is bad and purple are mechanics. They even made their AoE target previews accesible to colorblind people, at release, by differentiating the edges. In certain fights, there are attacks that home in on players, as indicated by a slowly filling up circle beneath their feet that follows them. To avoid the attack you need to dodge at the moment the circle fills up. They
Most notable is the Tank Wall ability that has been displayed as a giant blue wall or red wall depending on Ally versus Enemy. I don't like the saturated color display for this ability. It's too overpowering and contrasting to the world around you. A colored outline at the bottom of the wall would suffice. That way we can see the color of the wall itself. I want to be able to see what the wall is made of, maybe in different landscapes the wall is made out of different materials (sandstone, obsidian, ice, etc.).
In PvP, anything with a cast timer that creates an AOE should be telegraphed. Just like when a boss charges up an AOE it telegraphs that AOE is coming (I'm thinking of FF14 again). Some people might worry about the enemy being able to identify a sneaky mage trying to explode an entire area. But even with telegraphed AOE's I argue that in PvP you may have no idea WHO is casting the AOE given the sheer number of players, but at least you won't be able to have 10 mages cast an eruption spell without the opposing force knowing where not to stand.
When it comes to how clearly AOEs should be to enemy or friendly players, I think enemy AOEs should have a greater visual on the screen than the friendly players. A friendly players AOE won't hurt you so it isn't as imperative that you see it, versus the enemy's AOE Will hurt you. You could even talk about sliders in the settings that change how much visuals you see for AOE indicators. Giving players more options. There needs to be a difference between how ally and enemy is displayed because in the heat of battle when a visual is displayed on screen I need to reflexively react differently to an ally AOE vs an Enemy AOE.
In PvE I think AOE indicators should be the same as when in PvP. Because won't there be the chance for PvP in Any PvE zone? So the AOE's should always be displayed as PvP AOEs. It should always be the same if that makes sense.
Like mentioned above, I like the AOE indicators of Final Fantasy 14 online. I even like them in Smite the 3D MOBA style game. In Smite the AOE's are clearly visible but can be cast rather quickly. They always have a delay to spawn so you aren't SOL but you don't always have loads of time to respond to an AOE about to erupt.