Pull off leveling and Artisanship as Immersive

It would seem to me that it is bad design to allow someone to start out on a path that has a clear end, but then just before that end, placing an obstacle in their way that is - to them - insurmountable.

It is akin to only letting the top 100 people on the arena leaderboard actually level past 45 - or people they allow.

Scarcity is a good thing in an MMORPG. Top end gear, flying mounts, castles, being mayor, these are all things that benefit from being scarce.

Freeholds though, they are gameplay.

A game that makes it's gameplay systems and content scarce before the game launches seem to me to be a game that is going to be chasing their tail fixing their bad design after the game has launched.

Honestly, it really is bad design.

Laetitian

Noaani wrote: »

Scarcity is a good thing in an MMORPG. Top end gear, flying mounts, castles, being mayor, these are all things that benefit from being scarce.

Freeholds though, they are gameplay.

Can you explain how a freehold constitutes more critical gameplay than a castle, please?
Can't you do all the things you can do at freeholds in other parts of the world, just with less powerful rewards?
Aside perhaps from "delighting in the pleasure of owning a home," which doesn't suffice for the definition of "gameplay" by my standards. And even this one you can technically emulate at other player residences than freeholds.

(All of which is before we have even considered sharing freeholds with ingame family, and to a lesser extent other allies.)

Laetitian wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Scarcity is a good thing in an MMORPG. Top end gear, flying mounts, castles, being mayor, these are all things that benefit from being scarce.

Freeholds though, they are gameplay.

Can you explain how a freehold constitutes more critical gameplay than a castle, please?

Castles aren't designed in a way where they are the end of a long progression path. They are essentially like an optional side quest at the end of leveling.

There is also most likely going to be more content - and more varied content - that is locked behind freeholds than castles. The major gameplay aspect of castles is sieges, but sieges of a similar level and style exist outside of castles.

Freeholds though, they offer things that you can do with access to one that you can't do without it.

Also, I haven't seen Intrepid sell any castle skins, they have sold a shitload of freehold skins - long before there was any notion at all of them being scarce.

Is that enough differentiators for you?

Laetitian

Noaani wrote:

There is also most likely going to be more content - and more varied content - that is locked behind freeholds than castles

The essence of my question was what content you think that is.

Laetitian wrote: »

Noaani wrote:

There is also most likely going to be more content - and more varied content - that is locked behind freeholds than castles

The essence of my question was what content you think that is.

That we know of so far, we have plots for raising your own crops and animals. These are things that are not available at all in any other part of the game that we are currently aware of.

Then we have ALL artisan processing past Journeyman - which means freeholds are the only place you can go to perform the last quarter or so of the progression path for alchemy, animal husbandry, cooking, farming, lumber milling, metalworking, stonemasonry, tanning and weaving. This is the aspect of them that is akin to only allowing the top 100 on the arena ladder to progress past 45.

A freehold is the owners own personal PvP free zone.

Then we have the notion of business buildings that are seperate from the node. This includes taverns - so the often talked about notion of running your own tavern is locked behind owning a freehold.

Then, not only are freeholds a block to artisan progression, they even contain their own progression path just for them.

Noaani wrote: »

It would seem to me that it is bad design to allow someone to start out on a path that has a clear end, but then just before that end, placing an obstacle in their way that is - to them - insurmountable.

It is akin to only letting the top 100 people on the arena leaderboard actually level past 45 - or people they allow.

Scarcity is a good thing in an MMORPG. Top end gear, flying mounts, castles, being mayor, these are all things that benefit from being scarce.

Freeholds though, they are gameplay.

A game that makes it's gameplay systems and content scarce before the game launches seem to me to be a game that is going to be chasing their tail fixing their bad design after the game has launched.

Honestly, it really is bad design.

you arent restricted from processing. you just cant do all processing unless you meet certain conditions. that's like saying I cant go into this open world dungeon because I don't have a party, that's bad design since I depend on other players, and that's also gameplay.

Taleof2Cities

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

It would seem to me that it is bad design to allow someone to start out on a path that has a clear end, but then just before that end, placing an obstacle in their way that is - to them - insurmountable.

It is akin to only letting the top 100 people on the arena leaderboard actually level past 45 - or people they allow.

Scarcity is a good thing in an MMORPG. Top end gear, flying mounts, castles, being mayor, these are all things that benefit from being scarce.

Freeholds though, they are gameplay.

A game that makes it's gameplay systems and content scarce before the game launches seem to me to be a game that is going to be chasing their tail fixing their bad design after the game has launched.

Honestly, it really is bad design.

you arent restricted from processing. you just cant do all processing unless you meet certain conditions. that's like saying I cant go into this open world dungeon because I don't have a party, that's bad design since I depend on other players, and that's also gameplay.

This is a skill line, Depraved ... not grouping up for content.

Don't forget the distinction.

That said, we're likely not to see the full loop of freeholds until Beta. The jury's still out in my opinion ... accessibility could be fine after players get in and test.

Laetitian wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Scarcity is a good thing in an MMORPG. Top end gear, flying mounts, castles, being mayor, these are all things that benefit from being scarce.

Freeholds though, they are gameplay.

Can't you do all the things you can do at freeholds in other parts of the world, just with less powerful rewards?

In all other cases than Processing, it's the exact opposite.

Freeholds, being the only safe zones in the entire game, in all other areas offer less potent rewards than going out in the world and doing content, fighting over things, and engaging with node buildings.

Processing is the ONLY aspect in which this reward structure is inverted, where the safe zone is the only avenue to mastery of an artisan skill line.

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

It would seem to me that it is bad design to allow someone to start out on a path that has a clear end, but then just before that end, placing an obstacle in their way that is - to them - insurmountable.

It is akin to only letting the top 100 people on the arena leaderboard actually level past 45 - or people they allow.

Scarcity is a good thing in an MMORPG. Top end gear, flying mounts, castles, being mayor, these are all things that benefit from being scarce.

Freeholds though, they are gameplay.

A game that makes it's gameplay systems and content scarce before the game launches seem to me to be a game that is going to be chasing their tail fixing their bad design after the game has launched.

Honestly, it really is bad design.

you arent restricted from processing. you just cant do all processing unless you meet certain conditions. that's like saying I cant go into this open world dungeon because I don't have a party, that's bad design since I depend on other players, and that's also gameplay.

This is a skill line, Depraved ... not grouping up for content.

Don't forget the distinction.

That said, we're likely not to see the full loop of freeholds until Beta. The jury's still out in my opinion ... accessibility could be fine after players get in and test.

I get that but what I mean is partisanship is still part of the game. some parts of the game will require other players to help you to get access to them. so the question is, which parts should be accessed solo and which ones with the help of other players? take into consideration this game is group oriented.

also, some skills in other games require other players to help you activate them. even in ashes, you can promote cc applied by other players. so you can make the same argument here. i cant stun my target because I need a tank that uses a stagger first, boo hoo. so how do you decide when designing the game? i supposed you would need full info about the game first.

Aszkalon

Dygz wrote: »

You don't have to own a Freehold to Craft on a Freehold.

Damn it. Now i have no Choice but to give You a Like. Look what you made me do, Dygz !!

Depraved wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

It would seem to me that it is bad design to allow someone to start out on a path that has a clear end, but then just before that end, placing an obstacle in their way that is - to them - insurmountable.

It is akin to only letting the top 100 people on the arena leaderboard actually level past 45 - or people they allow.

Scarcity is a good thing in an MMORPG. Top end gear, flying mounts, castles, being mayor, these are all things that benefit from being scarce.

Freeholds though, they are gameplay.

A game that makes it's gameplay systems and content scarce before the game launches seem to me to be a game that is going to be chasing their tail fixing their bad design after the game has launched.

Honestly, it really is bad design.

you arent restricted from processing. you just cant do all processing unless you meet certain conditions. that's like saying I cant go into this open world dungeon because I don't have a party, that's bad design since I depend on other players, and that's also gameplay.

This is a skill line, Depraved ... not grouping up for content.

Don't forget the distinction.

That said, we're likely not to see the full loop of freeholds until Beta. The jury's still out in my opinion ... accessibility could be fine after players get in and test.

I get that but what I mean is partisanship is still part of the game. some parts of the game will require other players to help you to get access to them. so the question is, which parts should be accessed solo and which ones with the help of other players? take into consideration this game is group oriented.

also, some skills in other games require other players to help you activate them. even in ashes, you can promote cc applied by other players. so you can make the same argument here. i cant stun my target because I need a tank that uses a stagger first, boo hoo. so how do you decide when designing the game? i supposed you would need full info about the game first.

We're talking about a skill line, stick to the discussion at hand.

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

It would seem to me that it is bad design to allow someone to start out on a path that has a clear end, but then just before that end, placing an obstacle in their way that is - to them - insurmountable.

It is akin to only letting the top 100 people on the arena leaderboard actually level past 45 - or people they allow.

Scarcity is a good thing in an MMORPG. Top end gear, flying mounts, castles, being mayor, these are all things that benefit from being scarce.

Freeholds though, they are gameplay.

A game that makes it's gameplay systems and content scarce before the game launches seem to me to be a game that is going to be chasing their tail fixing their bad design after the game has launched.

Honestly, it really is bad design.

you arent restricted from processing. you just cant do all processing unless you meet certain conditions. that's like saying I cant go into this open world dungeon because I don't have a party, that's bad design since I depend on other players, and that's also gameplay.

As others have pointed out, this is wrong.

People will be able to go out and finish leveling without a group. They won't be able to participate in group content, but they can finish leveling.

That is not what freeholds are preventing people from doing. If they were, I'd be fine with it.

What a freehold should be (and likely will be, 12 months after launch) is something you need in order to craft specific items or process specific materials. These items and materials should not be key to leveling each given profession, they should be an aside to that leveling process.

Depraved wrote: »

also, some skills in other games require other players to help you activate them. even in ashes, you can promote cc applied by other players. so you can make the same argument here. i cant stun my target because I need a tank that uses a stagger first, boo hoo. so how do you decide when designing the game? i supposed you would need full info about the game first.

This is again missing the point.

Crafting needs others simply due to it's nature. You need people to harvest the materials you want to process, and you need other people to purchase them. That is a dependency akin to what you are talking about here.

In terms of how you make decisions on what inter-player dependencies you have in a game, it's quite simple. If a player can start a path (leveling process, quest chain etc) solo, they should be able to finish it solo. If you want to add a dependency to that realm (such as group content), you don't make it a requirement to finish that path that players could start solo, you make it either a shortcut, or an optional extra.

If players can start the path of leveling up as a processor in a node, they should be able to finish leveling it up there. If you then want to add some scarcity on top of that using freeholds, have at it.

Caeryl wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

It would seem to me that it is bad design to allow someone to start out on a path that has a clear end, but then just before that end, placing an obstacle in their way that is - to them - insurmountable.

It is akin to only letting the top 100 people on the arena leaderboard actually level past 45 - or people they allow.

Scarcity is a good thing in an MMORPG. Top end gear, flying mounts, castles, being mayor, these are all things that benefit from being scarce.

Freeholds though, they are gameplay.

A game that makes it's gameplay systems and content scarce before the game launches seem to me to be a game that is going to be chasing their tail fixing their bad design after the game has launched.

Honestly, it really is bad design.

you arent restricted from processing. you just cant do all processing unless you meet certain conditions. that's like saying I cant go into this open world dungeon because I don't have a party, that's bad design since I depend on other players, and that's also gameplay.

This is a skill line, Depraved ... not grouping up for content.

Don't forget the distinction.

That said, we're likely not to see the full loop of freeholds until Beta. The jury's still out in my opinion ... accessibility could be fine after players get in and test.

I get that but what I mean is partisanship is still part of the game. some parts of the game will require other players to help you to get access to them. so the question is, which parts should be accessed solo and which ones with the help of other players? take into consideration this game is group oriented.

also, some skills in other games require other players to help you activate them. even in ashes, you can promote cc applied by other players. so you can make the same argument here. i cant stun my target because I need a tank that uses a stagger first, boo hoo. so how do you decide when designing the game? i supposed you would need full info about the game first.

We're talking about a skill line, stick to the discussion at hand.

no, we are talking about leveling and artisanship being immersive. you stick to the discussion at hand. if anything, limiting artisanship is more immersive. imagine you are in a middle age village, there are 10 blacksmiths in that village but only one furnace. 9 blacksmiths will have to find something else to do.

anyways, back to aoc, the point isn't a skill line. the underlying argument is requiring other players to access things in the game. you also ignore dmy example of not being able to stun someone since I need someone else to stagger them first. this is also a skill line. should I simply not get the ability when I level up or should I find people to play with? you can say the same about max level processing.

also, processing serves a function. i get it, there are people who wanna rp and farm tomatoes. you just have to farm t1-t4 tomatoes, not t5 tomatoes. you are still rping farming tomatoes. or join a guild and get a fh to farm tomatoes. restricting processing is there for a reason. intrepid has all the info about the game, not the players.

Depraved wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

It would seem to me that it is bad design to allow someone to start out on a path that has a clear end, but then just before that end, placing an obstacle in their way that is - to them - insurmountable.

It is akin to only letting the top 100 people on the arena leaderboard actually level past 45 - or people they allow.

Scarcity is a good thing in an MMORPG. Top end gear, flying mounts, castles, being mayor, these are all things that benefit from being scarce.

Freeholds though, they are gameplay.

A game that makes it's gameplay systems and content scarce before the game launches seem to me to be a game that is going to be chasing their tail fixing their bad design after the game has launched.

Honestly, it really is bad design.

you arent restricted from processing. you just cant do all processing unless you meet certain conditions. that's like saying I cant go into this open world dungeon because I don't have a party, that's bad design since I depend on other players, and that's also gameplay.

This is a skill line, Depraved ... not grouping up for content.

Don't forget the distinction.

That said, we're likely not to see the full loop of freeholds until Beta. The jury's still out in my opinion ... accessibility could be fine after players get in and test.

I get that but what I mean is partisanship is still part of the game. some parts of the game will require other players to help you to get access to them. so the question is, which parts should be accessed solo and which ones with the help of other players? take into consideration this game is group oriented.

also, some skills in other games require other players to help you activate them. even in ashes, you can promote cc applied by other players. so you can make the same argument here. i cant stun my target because I need a tank that uses a stagger first, boo hoo. so how do you decide when designing the game? i supposed you would need full info about the game first.

We're talking about a skill line, stick to the discussion at hand.

the underlying argument is requiring other players to access things in the game. you also ignored my example of not being able to stun someone since I need someone else to stagger them first. this is also a skill line.

Your example is irrelevant because it has absolutely nothing to do with skill line progression even if you type out the words to make an obviously empty claim that it is. Of course I'm ignoring it.

The underlying argument is that it makes zero sense that in every single other aspect of the game, you can prevent someone's progress only by competing with them, fighting, beating them to the punch in the open world, where all the best rewards are.

This is true of Gathering, which is done in the open world and you CANNOT gather top-end materials in your safe zones (Freeholds), and in fact requires going to Lawless lands.

It's true of Crafting, which requires raiding and clearing dungeons for the best recipes, or a ton of gold that you have to earn by playing the game in the open world, and you can only craft those recipes in a high level node. You cannot passively acquire these things within your safe zones (Freeholds) or craft them there.

The only artisan path that proves the exception the this idea that players shouldn't get the best rewards from safe zones is Processing, and in this case the best rewards only come from those safe zones in this current design.

That's on top of how shortsighted it is to even have the potential that the inaction of other players could put a hard stop on the progress of a skill line.

You really want me to acknowledge your irrelevant example? It would only be remotely similar if you couldn't unlock the Ultimate of your imaginary 'Stun' skill line unless you got someone's permission first, and then you'd lose at their whims.

huh. you can pvp inside afh, just not inside a fh house. your fh can also be attacked and raided after an unsuccessful node siege, so if you want to keep your shit, you need to win at pvp. i'd say crafting is safer than processing.

beside it doesn't even matter. not everything has to be equal. you can simply trade for the mats you need and craft your gear. fh are going to be very contested. the point of the artisan professions is to help you get items. the point is to get the item, doesn't matter how you get it. rping as a tomato farmer is something extra.

Depraved wrote: »

the underlying argument is requiring other players to access things in the game.

Sort of, the underlying argument is in regards to which things should require other people to get access to.

Again, in my mind, this is simple. If an activity is solo - such as crafting - it shouldn't require other people to access it.

Depraved wrote: »

huh. you can pvp inside afh, just not inside a fh house. your fh can also be attacked and raided after an unsuccessful node siege, so if you want to keep your shit, you need to win at pvp. i'd say crafting is safer than processing.

beside it doesn't even matter. not everything has to be equal. you can simply trade for the mats you need and craft your gear. fh are going to be very contested. the point of the artisan professions is to help you get items. the point is to get the item, doesn't matter how you get it. rping as a tomato farmer is something extra.

Freeholds are as safe as you could possibly be in the world.

See again:

The underlying argument is that it makes zero sense that in every single other aspect of the game, you can prevent someone's progress only by competing with them, fighting, beating them to the punch in the open world, where all the best rewards are.

That's on top of how shortsighted it is to even have the potential that the inaction of other players could put a hard stop on the progress of a skill line.

This is the discussion. Not gear, not stuns, those quotes right there are the topic.

Skill line progress shouldn't ever be gatekept based on needing permission from another player to advance.

This goes for artisan skill lines. It goes for combat skill lines. It goes for social organization progress.

Not a single one should ever demand you have to get permission from some other player just to complete progression in a skill line.

Aszkalon

I personally like the "fishing" in Sea of Thieves. I hope there will be at least one type of fishing of probably several in Ashes.

Like when can use "Nets" for fishing deeper than throwing just a bait on a fishing Cord into the Water - and use simple fishing Rods for - well - fishing on the Surface.

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

the underlying argument is requiring other players to access things in the game.

Sort of, the underlying argument is in regards to which things should require other people to get access to.

Again, in my mind, this is simple. If an activity is solo - such as crafting - it shouldn't require other people to access it.

sure, but crafting isn't a solo activity in ashes. they turned it into a group activity. you can't make a sword without the materials provided by other people. you need people to farm those mats and give them to you. ashes is built around group play. crafting isn't inherently a solo activity, it was made like that in some games...even in real life, manual labor workers have assistants or other workers helping them.

also, what is the purpose of crafting? to get items to become stronger. what if you can get the items without crafting? this is the same as buying a drill. you don't care about the drill, you care about the hole in the wall. but you don't really care about the hole in the wall, you care about the nail in the hole and the painting you can hang. but you care about it because of how it makes you feel when you or others look at it.