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All weapons usable for every class - why?

GarrtokGarrtok Member, Alpha Two
edited October 7 in General Discussion
Hi,

while we know, that all classes have access to all weapons, intrepid never showed what incentive you would have to switch to a non typical weapon. Or what options are open to you.

Most likely the weapon skill trees won't be super complex and will also most likely support a certain class more than others.

Edit: cause for some it seems not to be clear. Iam not complaining, that every weapon is available, iam asking what options do we have to play a build outside the intended standard class, that makes it worth to play a ranger with a sword and plate armor for example.

A problem might be, that you can always roll for need on a rate items cause it could fit your super creative build and no one could argue about that.
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Comments

  • mxomxo Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 4
    Hm, for diversity and more individual character progression.

    Well, to be realistic, dual wield dagger will have some smart benefits for rogues and probably not for tanks, at least that is what I'm guessing or, that's how Steven is thinking about it:

    Let's say a dagger has some slashing effects that bleed the target or that cripple the target... Every time you attack you have a chance to proc that effect. That effect then can synergize with what your active skills tree has available to it. So let's say your backstab deals 30 additional damage to a bleeding target. If you attack with your main weapon first and the target gets the bleed proc off and you do your backstab skill then you're synergizing your effects"

    Assumption: "backstab" is a special rogue skill and not only an attack from behind.

    But weapon skills will support different playing styles, as I understand it. So, if you want to have an increase in cooldown reduction there perhaps will be weapons / weapons skills that support this more instead of providing more crit-chance or whatever.
    Will that be incentive enough? Idk. Perhaps. There will be classes which perhaps will benefit a bit more to use/play with different weapons.
    Perhaps a Greatsword enhances AoE-crit chance. This buff/proc perhaps can be helpful for mages focussing on AoE damage/skills instead of single target skills, so perhaps they play a "battle mage" type or something like this, so mage with Greatsword. Why not.

    About rolling during loot process: Yes, that and (because there will be no or few soulbound items) need rolls to sell the item afterwards. This, tbh, will only be possible to be controlled because you play in a group of friends or mature guildies so it will not happen. In random groups / PUGs this risk is always existing.
  • koltovincekoltovince Member, Settler, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two
    Personally I hope it inspires new and interesting builds. For example daggers are fast, so I am interested to see if a dagger fighter who talents entirely into wounds and weapon combos to do damage would be able to execute abilities more often than a 2h fighter because the differing weapon talent systems.
  • P0GG0P0GG0 Member, Alpha Two
    locking weapons to classes would really help with visual clarity during fights. i really hate not knowing what i'm facing. but they are alternative was to do that.
  • RocketFarmerRocketFarmer Member, Alpha Two
    The book/wand tank sounds intriguing. Wondering if they’ll allow the book to be used as a shield, it’s big and meaty enough.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    The book/wand tank sounds intriguing. Wondering if they’ll allow the book to be used as a shield, it’s big and meaty enough.
    I need the shield to be used with one-handed ranged weapons! I require it, Intrepid!
  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Because it let's you make your own class like DnD. Great things like battle mages. Clerics designed got back line support or a Cleric that is tuned for frount Line battle support. You can wear all armor types as well :D
  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    The book/wand tank sounds intriguing. Wondering if they’ll allow the book to be used as a shield, it’s big and meaty enough.
    I need the shield to be used with one-handed ranged weapons! I require it, Intrepid!

    I would love to play my Bard Board and Wand. That would be a dream class. Would be nice if you got skills with shield.
  • GarrtokGarrtok Member, Alpha Two
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    Because it let's you make your own class like DnD. Great things like battle mages. Clerics designed got back line support or a Cleric that is tuned for frount Line battle support. You can wear all armor types as well :D

    But whyyyy is the question? Is the game supporting such builds? Just based on the weapon you don't change to a melee focused mage. In guild wars for example it's easily possible
  • GarrtokGarrtok Member, Alpha Two
    The book/wand tank sounds intriguing. Wondering if they’ll allow the book to be used as a shield, it’s big and meaty enough.

    But that's exactly my question, is there any incentive or not?
  • KorelaKorela Member
    Marketing and advertising
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    Freedom for folks to experiment and play what they want & how they want without silly restrictions for armor or weapons.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • Taleof2CitiesTaleof2Cities Member, Alpha Two
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Freedom for folks to experiment and play what they want & how they want without silly restrictions for armor or weapons.

    This is the correct answer.

    Not all weapons will be optimal for your class.

    More importantly, not all players will be participating in Ashes content that requires an optimized build with “best in slot” weapons.
  • RedLeader1RedLeader1 Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 5
    I doubt that every node will have the ability (the artisans or the materials) to make the very best weapons of every type. I think achieving the exact build you want, with the most synergistic augments possible, is going to take many years, and maybe even a few relocations. you are going to have to grow the right nodes and the right POIs in exactly the right way, to get the mats for the BIS gear/weapons, work on the right religion, grow your node of the right type in the right way and so on. most of us are going to have to make trade-offs for the first year or so.

    It isn't going to be zerg these 7 POIs and then wait for the expansion.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Garrtok wrote: »
    Hi,

    while we know, that all classes have access to all weapons, intrepid never showed what incentive you would have to switch to a non typical weapon. Or what options are open to you.

    Most likely the weapon skill trees won't be super complex and will also most likely support a certain class more than others.

    A problem might be, that you can always roll for need on a rate items cause it could fit your super creative build and no one could argue about that.

    well, if rolling is the problem, then you just coordinate with your group and roll for 1 weapon until everybody gets a weapon. after that, everybody can yoll for secondary / alternative weapons, so its not a problem at all ;3

  • GarrtokGarrtok Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 5
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Freedom for folks to experiment and play what they want & how they want without silly restrictions for armor or weapons.

    You don't get it right? Right now there is no incentive to play something else than your standard weapons. There is no mechanic to play as an melee wizard. You would downgrade yourself massively
  • GarrtokGarrtok Member, Alpha Two
    RedLeader wrote: »
    I doubt that every node will have the ability (the artisans or the materials) to make the very best weapons of every type. I think achieving the exact build you want, with the most synergistic augments possible, is going to take many years, and maybe even a few relocations. you are going to have to grow the right nodes and the right POIs in exactly the right way, to get the mats for the BIS gear/weapons, work on the right religion, grow your node of the right type in the right way and so on. most of us are going to have to make trade-offs for the first year or so.

    It isn't going to be zerg these 7 POIs and then wait for the expansion.

    Can we maybe talk about what they showed and not about some theoretical one day maybe stuff?
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Garrtok wrote: »
    RedLeader wrote: »
    I doubt that every node will have the ability (the artisans or the materials) to make the very best weapons of every type. I think achieving the exact build you want, with the most synergistic augments possible, is going to take many years, and maybe even a few relocations. you are going to have to grow the right nodes and the right POIs in exactly the right way, to get the mats for the BIS gear/weapons, work on the right religion, grow your node of the right type in the right way and so on. most of us are going to have to make trade-offs for the first year or so.

    It isn't going to be zerg these 7 POIs and then wait for the expansion.

    Can we maybe talk about what they showed and not about some theoretical one day maybe stuff?

    it's not theoretical. they already said that you wont have all crafting stations in every node. majors will decide what to set up and IIRC its 2 per node. with that mind, there will only be 5 metros, therefore 10 stations. there are 8 crafting professions, so if metros repeat stations, some players wont be able to craft t5 stuff until those nodes are destroyed or change the stations. it could take a while. its this way until intrepid changes things
  • GarrtokGarrtok Member, Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    Garrtok wrote: »
    RedLeader wrote: »
    I doubt that every node will have the ability (the artisans or the materials) to make the very best weapons of every type. I think achieving the exact build you want, with the most synergistic augments possible, is going to take many years, and maybe even a few relocations. you are going to have to grow the right nodes and the right POIs in exactly the right way, to get the mats for the BIS gear/weapons, work on the right religion, grow your node of the right type in the right way and so on. most of us are going to have to make trade-offs for the first year or so.

    It isn't going to be zerg these 7 POIs and then wait for the expansion.

    Can we maybe talk about what they showed and not about some theoretical one day maybe stuff?

    it's not theoretical. they already said that you wont have all crafting stations in every node. majors will decide what to set up and IIRC its 2 per node. with that mind, there will only be 5 metros, therefore 10 stations. there are 8 crafting professions, so if metros repeat stations, some players wont be able to craft t5 stuff until those nodes are destroyed or change the stations. it could take a while. its this way until intrepid changes things

    But how are good crafting stations related to the topic at all?
  • I can’t wait to play a battle mage with some cool 2-handed melee weapons like a spear or halberd. It’d be pretty awesome to be clapping people with a trident or something similar. Being able to mix it up with different weapon styles is going to be sweet. I really like the weapon skill system too—it seems like a solid way to offer more freedom and diversity in player builds. The ability to wear any armor type and use any weapon is definitely a bonus, allowing for more dynamic gameplay. It feels like it’ll let players experiment and find their own unique playstyle.
  • GarrtokGarrtok Member, Alpha Two
    Pendragxn wrote: »
    I can’t wait to play a battle mage with some cool 2-handed melee weapons like a spear or halberd. It’d be pretty awesome to be clapping people with a trident or something similar. Being able to mix it up with different weapon styles is going to be sweet. I really like the weapon skill system too—it seems like a solid way to offer more freedom and diversity in player builds. The ability to wear any armor type and use any weapon is definitely a bonus, allowing for more dynamic gameplay. It feels like it’ll let players experiment and find their own unique playstyle.



    But until now there is nothing shown to support this.
  • Hopefully, they’ll flesh it out more after alpha testing and once they start testing all the classes. They still need to finish all the archetypes first, like rogue and summoner, so there’s a lot left to work on. It would make sense to balance weapon skills alongside classes, combat systems, and other mechanics as they continue development. Getting that balance right between the different systems would definitely improve the overall gameplay experience.
  • CawwCaww Member, Alpha Two
    Garrtok wrote: »
    A problem might be, that you can always roll for need on a rate items cause it could fit your super creative build and no one could argue about that.

    People can always call out "Greed" if the healer puts in for dual daggers or other such nonsense....
  • ShivaFangShivaFang Member, Alpha Two
    build diversity and party synnergy.

    They gave an example during the wand showcase that a bard or cleric might use a wand to proc elemental statuses to set up the wizard to be more powerful.
  • ExiledByrdExiledByrd Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    A lot of class skills dont even work with certain weapons. I'm looking at you ranger. I'm more curious how they are supposed to use anything except what the class is designed for.
  • ShivaFangShivaFang Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 5
    ExiledByrd wrote: »
    A lot of class skills dont even work with certain weapons. I'm looking at you ranger. I'm more curious how they are supposed to use anything except what the class is designed for.

    So much my biggest beef with the Ranger and Fighter right now. The original campaign used the Pathfinder system, but Archer Fighters and dual-wield rangers that are staples of that system are not represented
  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Garrtok wrote: »
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    Because it let's you make your own class like DnD. Great things like battle mages. Clerics designed got back line support or a Cleric that is tuned for frount Line battle support. You can wear all armor types as well :D

    But whyyyy is the question? Is the game supporting such builds? Just based on the weapon you don't change to a melee focused mage. In guild wars for example it's easily possible

    The freedom of class build can lead to people coming up with creative ways to build a class. The freedom Ashes is doing is much like ESO but Ashes took it to the next step. I loved seeing a Mage Class in ESO tank, and do it well. I RPed a Battlemage before in DnD and to see that in a MMO makes me smile.

    You can play meta and meta often changes but with a skill system like Ashes, you can think outside the box and build a class that people will need to figuring you out. That gives you a few second advantage. I have my Bard built in my mind. I hope the skills and Augments let me do it.
  • LaetitianLaetitian Member
    edited October 5
    Garrtok wrote: »
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    Because it let's you make your own class like DnD. Great things like battle mages. Clerics designed got back line support or a Cleric that is tuned for frount Line battle support. You can wear all armor types as well :D

    But whyyyy is the question? Is the game supporting such builds? Just based on the weapon you don't change to a melee focused mage. In guild wars for example it's easily possible
    The beautiful thing is that it doesn't need to support it. It leaves it up to the players to come up with a justification, instead of giving every potential configuration a viable benefit. So if you want to be a ranged tank, you better come up with a great reason for yourself why that has to exist, instead of the game making it viable for you.

    It just gives players a way to fulfil their class fantasy. Real agency means that if your choice is suboptimal, you feel the full brunt of the disadvantage you've created for yourself, but you still get to make that choice.
    Where in a game like ESO, if a weapon combo is suboptimal, you'll get the class mains whining until Bethesda gives them a new proc or interaction to make it work to "keep things interesting."
    Some weapons skills might make some builds viable. Some ranger builds might be viable because rangers just happen to have a hidden strength that makes them more effective when they end up in melee combat. But you have to find that. It won't be created for you by changing your class when you start swinging a sword instead of a bow.
    The only one who can validate you for all the posts you didn't write is you.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Garrtok wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Garrtok wrote: »
    RedLeader wrote: »
    I doubt that every node will have the ability (the artisans or the materials) to make the very best weapons of every type. I think achieving the exact build you want, with the most synergistic augments possible, is going to take many years, and maybe even a few relocations. you are going to have to grow the right nodes and the right POIs in exactly the right way, to get the mats for the BIS gear/weapons, work on the right religion, grow your node of the right type in the right way and so on. most of us are going to have to make trade-offs for the first year or so.

    It isn't going to be zerg these 7 POIs and then wait for the expansion.

    Can we maybe talk about what they showed and not about some theoretical one day maybe stuff?

    it's not theoretical. they already said that you wont have all crafting stations in every node. majors will decide what to set up and IIRC its 2 per node. with that mind, there will only be 5 metros, therefore 10 stations. there are 8 crafting professions, so if metros repeat stations, some players wont be able to craft t5 stuff until those nodes are destroyed or change the stations. it could take a while. its this way until intrepid changes things

    But how are good crafting stations related to the topic at all?

    because they will allow you to craft / modify the item to get the exact build you want 8D
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Garrtok wrote: »
    Pendragxn wrote: »
    I can’t wait to play a battle mage with some cool 2-handed melee weapons like a spear or halberd. It’d be pretty awesome to be clapping people with a trident or something similar. Being able to mix it up with different weapon styles is going to be sweet. I really like the weapon skill system too—it seems like a solid way to offer more freedom and diversity in player builds. The ability to wear any armor type and use any weapon is definitely a bonus, allowing for more dynamic gameplay. It feels like it’ll let players experiment and find their own unique playstyle.



    But until now there is nothing shown to support this.


    ExiledByrd wrote: »
    A lot of class skills dont even work with certain weapons. I'm looking at you ranger. I'm more curious how they are supposed to use anything except what the class is designed for.

    I think the greatsword has a proc that does extra physical damage whenever you use a direct physical skill, I think its called second strike) therefore a ranger could use a greatsword to activate the proc (for example if a warrior or rogue dashes to him, or just in pve), then use a bow skill to proc the greatsword proc and do extra damage with the bow.

    the wand has something similar, and unless its a mistake on the wiki, it can also extend the duration of second strike. so a warrior with a greatsword could proc it, then swap to a wand, then back to the gs, making the wand a desirable weapon for a warrior (maybe a warrior with sub mage).

    we already have things like this, we just have to wait for more.
  • PendragxnPendragxn Member
    edited October 5
    The best approach would likely be to separate weapon skills and class skills. Technically, a
    class is the combination of two archetypes. So, a fighter, rogue, or mage isn’t a fully defined class until combined with a secondary archetype, forming something like a beast master or paladin.

    Class skills could use augments to enhance abilities, though the application of augments to weapon skills is less clear. Ideally, they should avoid implementing a system like Throne and Liberty, which feels clunky and confusing. The user interface (UI) is poorly designed, to the point where you need a build guide just to figure out how things work.
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