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All weapons usable for every class - why?

13

Comments

  • GarrtokGarrtok Member, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Garrtok wrote: »
    I am not questioning why it should be possible, iam questioning why you should do it / what the game is actually giving you to create different builds.
    Do it because you want to do it; not because you should do it.
    The people who want to do it are those who don't want to be stuck playing cookie-cutter builds.


    Garrtok wrote: »
    Giving a ranger the option to wear a sword, doesn't make it automatically fun to play, meaningful or deep. There have to be some some mechanics to specialise or alter, our class into a different roll. Iam also not getting this by having a weapon skill tree that increased my crit chance etc.
    If you don't want your Ranger to wield a Sword, don't have your Ranger wield a Sword.
    Combat role is primarily defined by Active Skills. Weapon Skills offer some variety in the details of how that role is performed.

    But don't you see that it's pointless to let a ranger use a sword, if there is nothing that works with a sword. There is no point in "do it because you want to" if half of your skills are not working anymore.
  • AstuWarAstuWar Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 7
    Garrtok wrote: »
    while we know, that all classes have access to all weapons, intrepid never showed what incentive you would have to switch to a non typical weapon. Or what options are open to you.
    Are you familiar with Lineage 2 or other games that allow you to equip any item type? I'll assume you are not, since you are asking this question. In such games you'll have your standard, almost-all-purpose equipment on, depending on your class, but you will want to switch to unconventional items depending on the situation you are facing. I assume AoC will work in the same way, I don't think it will be made so that any class/armor/weapon combo will be viable at all times (and I don't think it ever was said it would be?).
    To give you some examples:
    - I am a melee fighter, I have an ability that gives me tons of defence/protection/evasion but I am rooted for the duration (30 seconds), I use the ability, now my foe steps out of melee range... do I let them hit me for free for 30 seconds or do I switch to a bow? Maybe a book or a wand? Same question if I am rooted for any other reason.
    - I am engaged in 1v1 melee combat, I usually use a 2H sword because it gives me the most critical chance (just as an example). My opponent seems to be evading every single hit, I need to switch to a weapon with better accuracy or I'll die soon. The weapon with the most accuracy is a magic staff usually used by spellcasters, do I equip it anyway and land somewhat softer hits or do I keep looking like a true warrior and missing every single hit?
    - I am a magic user about to face a rogue in 1v1. I can take them in 3 hits if I survive long enough to cast 3 magic attacks. Do I use my usual very thin robe which gives me tons of mana regen but negligible physical protection or do I use an unconventional heavy armor that will allow me to survive a couple of hits even if it has no specific stats for magic users?
    - I am a melee fighter with an ability that I can only use when I am at 50% HP or less but will greatly buff me for 30 seconds. I found this very clearly intended for spellcasters weapon which gives me +50% max mana in exchange of -50% max health... maybe I could equip it and then re-equip my usual weapon to be at exactly 50% HP and be able to use my best ability before taking any actual damage?
    Garrtok wrote: »
    Most likely the weapon skill trees won't be super complex and will also most likely support a certain class more than others.
    Of course. Some classes will be more reliant on a wider variety of items than others, meaning some classes will never have any actual use for some item types regardless of the situation, while others do. This will probably mean that it will be much more expensive to play some classes than others, if you want to be ready for any situation, that is.
    Garrtok wrote: »
    A problem might be, that you can always roll for need on a rate items cause it could fit your super creative build and no one could argue about that.
    Some can argue they need X item. Some can argue against. If you can't find common ground, just expell them from your party.
  • GarrtokGarrtok Member, Alpha Two
    AstuWar wrote: »
    Garrtok wrote: »
    while we know, that all classes have access to all weapons, intrepid never showed what incentive you would have to switch to a non typical weapon. Or what options are open to you.
    Are you familiar with Lineage 2 or other games that allow you to equip any item type? I'll assume you are not, since you are asking this question. In such games you'll have your standard, almost-all-purpose equipment on, depending on your class, but you will want to switch to unconventional items depending on the situation you are facing. I assume AoC will work in the same way, I don't think it will be made so that any class/armor/weapon combo will be viable at all times (and I don't think it ever was said it would be?).
    To give you some examples:
    - I am a melee fighter, I have an ability that gives me tons of defence/protection/evasion but I am rooted for the duration (30 seconds), I use the ability, now my foe steps out of melee range... do I let them hit me for free for 30 seconds or do I switch to a bow? Maybe a book or a wand? Same question if I am rooted for any other reason.
    - I am engaged in 1v1 melee combat, I usually use a 2H sword because it gives me the most critical chance (just as an example). My opponent seems to be evading every single hit, I need to switch to a weapon with better accuracy or I'll die soon. The weapon with the most accuracy is a magic staff usually used by spellcasters, do I equip it anyway and land somewhat softer hits or do I keep looking like a true warrior and missing every single hit?
    - I am a magic user about to face a rogue in 1v1. I can take them in 3 hits if I survive long enough to cast 3 magic attacks. Do I use my usual very thin robe which gives me tons of mana regen but negligible physical protection or do I use an unconventional heavy armor that will allow me to survive a couple of hits even if it has no specific stats for magic users?
    - I am a melee fighter with an ability that I can only use when I am at 50% HP or less but will greatly buff me for 30 seconds. I found this very clearly intended for spellcasters weapon which gives me +50% max mana in exchange of -50% max health... maybe I could equip it and then re-equip my usual weapon to be at exactly 50% HP and be able to use my best ability before taking any actual damage?
    Garrtok wrote: »
    Most likely the weapon skill trees won't be super complex and will also most likely support a certain class more than others.
    Of course. Some classes will be more reliant on a wider variety of items than others, meaning some classes will never have any actual use for some item types regardless of the situation, while others do. This will probably mean that it will be much more expensive to play some classes than others, if you want to be ready for any situation, that is.
    Garrtok wrote: »
    A problem might be, that you can always roll for need on a rate items cause it could fit your super creative build and no one could argue about that.
    Some can argue they need X item. Some can argue against. If you can't find common ground, just expell them from your party.

    It really doesn't matter how other games handle it. Iam talking in particular about ashes of creation and what they showed until now.
  • PendragxnPendragxn Member
    edited October 7
    The concern over optimal weapons will likely be alleviated by the sheer diversity and number of available classes. It’s important to note the distinction between weapon skills and class skills. You aren’t fully defined as a specific class until you’ve combined two archetypes. For example, a mage/fighter or fighter/mage could still effectively use melee weapons, fitting a playstyle like that of a battle mage. Similarly, if you want to use a bow, simply choose an archetype combination that includes a ranger, which grants the ability to use bows. It’s a straightforward process.

    That said, I do wonder if they should reintroduce the crossbow as a one-handed option, allowing for a crossbow-and-shield combo. This could potentially make tank/ranger or ranger/tank classes more viable. Who knows? It’s all just speculation at this point, and we’ll see how it plays out in time.

    Additionally, they could augment weapon skills based on the class, offering more flexibility and diversity in weapon choices. If weapon skills were tied to class combinations in this way, it would open up more varied playstyles while maintaining a balance between weapon and class skills.
  • AstuWarAstuWar Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 7
    Garrtok wrote: »
    It really doesn't matter how other games handle it. Iam talking in particular about ashes of creation and what they showed until now.

    What they showed until now and what they said it will work like is exactly as I described. I named Lineage 2 specifically in case it might make it easier for you to understand.
  • ThevoicestHeVoIcEsThevoicestHeVoIcEs Member, Alpha Two
    Garrtok wrote: »
    Hi,

    while we know, that all classes have access to all weapons, intrepid never showed what incentive you would have to switch to a non typical weapon. Or what options are open to you.

    Most likely the weapon skill trees won't be super complex and will also most likely support a certain class more than others.

    A problem might be, that you can always roll for need on a rate items cause it could fit your super creative build and no one could argue about that.
    Well my hopes were that the fairly unrestricted weapon access is part of the game design to enable flexibility in playstyles in all classes, but after seeing the A2 archetype skill cheat sheets, I don't see that happening. I would imagine the "meta" is going to be rather restrictive.
    My lungs taste the air of Time,
    Blown past falling sands…
  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Garrtok wrote: »
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    I have never seen such a simple concept met with such confusion. If this is a game breaker for you. There is only 2 options, find a way to make a class you like or find a game you like. This is built with this from the ground up. From combat to crafting. They are not rolling this back.

    It would be helpful to understand the threat before gatekeeping kicks in..

    No gate keeping. Just pointing out that this is designed from the ground up. Undoing this will put Ashes at ground zero for their combat and crafting system made. So you have two options, get on board and find a way to make this class system be fun for you or this is not your game. Im in the same boat with Ashes. Kickstarted vids were all rated T for Teen. They have made a move to Rated M. It gets too dark and gory, I will be walking away as well.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    Garrtok wrote: »
    it's pointless to let a ranger use a sword, if there is nothing that works with a sword.

    I hear you, & agree.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • GarrtokGarrtok Member, Alpha Two
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    Garrtok wrote: »
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    I have never seen such a simple concept met with such confusion. If this is a game breaker for you. There is only 2 options, find a way to make a class you like or find a game you like. This is built with this from the ground up. From combat to crafting. They are not rolling this back.

    It would be helpful to understand the threat before gatekeeping kicks in..

    No gate keeping. Just pointing out that this is designed from the ground up. Undoing this will put Ashes at ground zero for their combat and crafting system made. So you have two options, get on board and find a way to make this class system be fun for you or this is not your game. Im in the same boat with Ashes. Kickstarted vids were all rated T for Teen. They have made a move to Rated M. It gets too dark and gory, I will be walking away as well.

    Did you even read the initial post? I mean seriously. No where is stated that iam questioning the concept of everyone having access to all weapons.
  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Garrtok wrote: »
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    Garrtok wrote: »
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    I have never seen such a simple concept met with such confusion. If this is a game breaker for you. There is only 2 options, find a way to make a class you like or find a game you like. This is built with this from the ground up. From combat to crafting. They are not rolling this back.

    It would be helpful to understand the threat before gatekeeping kicks in..

    No gate keeping. Just pointing out that this is designed from the ground up. Undoing this will put Ashes at ground zero for their combat and crafting system made. So you have two options, get on board and find a way to make this class system be fun for you or this is not your game. Im in the same boat with Ashes. Kickstarted vids were all rated T for Teen. They have made a move to Rated M. It gets too dark and gory, I will be walking away as well.

    Did you even read the initial post? I mean seriously. No where is stated that iam questioning the concept of everyone having access to all weapons.

    Yes and you question as to why and your posts saying you dont like this design brings me to post what I said to you last. Did you even read up on this games design before you posted? How all these systems are tied together.
  • GarrtokGarrtok Member, Alpha Two
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    Garrtok wrote: »
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    Garrtok wrote: »
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    I have never seen such a simple concept met with such confusion. If this is a game breaker for you. There is only 2 options, find a way to make a class you like or find a game you like. This is built with this from the ground up. From combat to crafting. They are not rolling this back.

    It would be helpful to understand the threat before gatekeeping kicks in..

    No gate keeping. Just pointing out that this is designed from the ground up. Undoing this will put Ashes at ground zero for their combat and crafting system made. So you have two options, get on board and find a way to make this class system be fun for you or this is not your game. Im in the same boat with Ashes. Kickstarted vids were all rated T for Teen. They have made a move to Rated M. It gets too dark and gory, I will be walking away as well.

    Did you even read the initial post? I mean seriously. No where is stated that iam questioning the concept of everyone having access to all weapons.

    Yes and you question as to why and your posts saying you dont like this design brings me to post what I said to you last. Did you even read up on this games design before you posted? How all these systems are tied together.

    Okay, you didn't. That's okay.
  • ShivaFangShivaFang Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 7
    Garrtok wrote: »
    But don't you see that it's pointless to let a ranger use a sword, if there is nothing that works with a sword. There is no point in "do it because you want to" if half of your skills are not working anymore.

    Basic attack combos and procs would be the reason to do it. If an enemy has a lot of healing and you need to stack wounded, basic attack combos with the greatsword in between your bow skills might be just the ticket.

    Maybe it's not viable 99.9% of the time - but why put in the extra effort to deny it when it's so easy just to let everyone use whatever weapon they want when they feel it's useful to?
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 7
    Garrtok wrote: »
    But don't you see that it's pointless to let a ranger use a sword, if there is nothing that works with a sword. There is no point in "do it because you want to" if half of your skills are not working anymore.
    Pretty much everything works with a Sword. A Sword does not stop Ranger Active Skills from working.
    Some Ranger Active Skills work better with a Bow, sure. But, if you are planning to wield a Sword you will choose a build that doesn't use the Active Skills that work best with a Bow.
    Just has when I'm playing a Feral Druid, I don't use all of the abilities in the Guardian or Balance branches of the Skill Tree.
    If I'm playing a Tank who Wields a Two-Handed Staff, I'm not going to use Shield Bash.
    And, I would probably choose Augments that supplement the effects of my Weapons.
  • GarrtokGarrtok Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 7
    Dygz wrote: »
    Garrtok wrote: »
    But don't you see that it's pointless to let a ranger use a sword, if there is nothing that works with a sword. There is no point in "do it because you want to" if half of your skills are not working anymore.
    Pretty much everything works with a Sword. A Sword does not stop Ranger Active Skills from working.
    Some Ranger Active Skills work better with a Bow, sure. But, if you are planning to wield a Sword you will choose a build that doesn't use the Active Skills that work best with a Bow.
    Just has when I'm playing a Feral Druid, I don't use all of the abilities in the Guardian or Balance branches of the Skill Tree.
    If I'm playing a Tank who Wields a Two-Handed Staff, I'm not going to use Shield Bash.
    And, I would probably choose Augments that supplement the effects of my Weapons.

    And that is what this thread is about. What skills can I choose, what kinds of builds can I actually build? What options are there to have your own unique non standard build, that is actually using the non standard armor or weapons?
  • xVenngeancexVenngeance Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I want to bring back my warrior/ninja build from FF11 XD dual 1h axes. sadly not a lot of games do that. it will be interesting to see what becomes meta. but I do hope I can dual-wield axes on a warrior archetype.
  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Garrtok wrote: »
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    Garrtok wrote: »
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    Garrtok wrote: »
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    I have never seen such a simple concept met with such confusion. If this is a game breaker for you. There is only 2 options, find a way to make a class you like or find a game you like. This is built with this from the ground up. From combat to crafting. They are not rolling this back.

    It would be helpful to understand the threat before gatekeeping kicks in..

    No gate keeping. Just pointing out that this is designed from the ground up. Undoing this will put Ashes at ground zero for their combat and crafting system made. So you have two options, get on board and find a way to make this class system be fun for you or this is not your game. Im in the same boat with Ashes. Kickstarted vids were all rated T for Teen. They have made a move to Rated M. It gets too dark and gory, I will be walking away as well.

    Did you even read the initial post? I mean seriously. No where is stated that iam questioning the concept of everyone having access to all weapons.

    Yes and you question as to why and your posts saying you dont like this design brings me to post what I said to you last. Did you even read up on this games design before you posted? How all these systems are tied together.

    Okay, you didn't. That's okay.

    I have responded to you more then once. You can pretend your OP has more depth to it but it does not. Have fun banging your head on this subject :)
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Garrtok wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Garrtok wrote: »
    But don't you see that it's pointless to let a ranger use a sword, if there is nothing that works with a sword. There is no point in "do it because you want to" if half of your skills are not working anymore.
    Pretty much everything works with a Sword. A Sword does not stop Ranger Active Skills from working.
    Some Ranger Active Skills work better with a Bow, sure. But, if you are planning to wield a Sword you will choose a build that doesn't use the Active Skills that work best with a Bow.
    Just has when I'm playing a Feral Druid, I don't use all of the abilities in the Guardian or Balance branches of the Skill Tree.
    If I'm playing a Tank who Wields a Two-Handed Staff, I'm not going to use Shield Bash.
    And, I would probably choose Augments that supplement the effects of my Weapons.

    And that is what this thread is about. What skills can I choose, what kinds of builds can I actually build? What options are there to have your own unique non standard build, that is actually using the non standard armor or weapons?

    But that is not what you asked

    The short answer is we don't know yet. Need to see what other skills are added to the archetype.

    I think the answer will be a solid maybe. They could add stuff or maybe having fighter as secondary will allow some skills to augment that direction. But we really don't know enough yet.

    Hopefully in the next year we get a much better answer as A2 progresses.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • ShivaFangShivaFang Member, Alpha Two
    Garrtok wrote: »
    And that is what this thread is about. What skills can I choose, what kinds of builds can I actually build? What options are there to have your own unique non standard build, that is actually using the non standard armor or weapons?

    We literally don't know yet because we don't know all the ways to spec each weapon and next to nothing about the full classes with secondaries.

    I have already given hypothetical examples such as battlemages and other /fighter and /mage characters.
  • PendragxnPendragxn Member
    edited October 8
    If you look at this link under the alpha 2 build sheets for the archetypes it talks about weapon skill trees. This is kind of what I theorised anyways weapon skills and class skills that’s how you can use any weapon as you have a progression system for each weapon. Again you’re not technically a class until you’ve merged both your first archetype choice and secondary so skills might change or will likely be augmentable via the second archetype.

    Weapon skills will be augmented by how you spec into the weapon skill tree is what I would expect from this.

    “Independent from your archetype selection, players will be able to level up and improve their weapons through skill trees! Select your weapon of choice and level it up to increase its power and efficiency during combat!”.

    They also mentioned there will be more weapons in the vod so there’s more than what’s on display in the image.

    https://ashesofcreation.com/news/2024-09-30-guide-to-alpha-two

    I would like them to do an Armour Progression system too for the heavy, medium and light Armour types as you could have different types of medium armour like leather or types of chain mail as opposed to plate being heavy. Being able to mix as well as match the armour too so you can wear some medium plus some light or some heavy plus some medium or light without becoming too overweight like in New World. I don’t know if that’s too much though but we’ll see what happens after alpha testing.
  • mxomxo Member, Alpha Two
    In the stream from August Steven talked a lot about weapons coming up during the three Alpha2 phases. In the end, all weapons that can be expected from a MMO in high fantasy setting will be available.
  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Pendragxn wrote: »
    If you look at this link under the alpha 2 build sheets for the archetypes it talks about weapon skill trees. This is kind of what I theorised anyways weapon skills and class skills that’s how you can use any weapon as you have a progression system for each weapon. Again you’re not technically a class until you’ve merged both your first archetype choice and secondary so skills might change or will likely be augmentable via the second archetype.

    Weapon skills will be augmented by how you spec into the weapon skill tree is what I would expect from this.

    “Independent from your archetype selection, players will be able to level up and improve their weapons through skill trees! Select your weapon of choice and level it up to increase its power and efficiency during combat!”.

    They also mentioned there will be more weapons in the vod so there’s more than what’s on display in the image.

    https://ashesofcreation.com/news/2024-09-30-guide-to-alpha-two

    I would like them to do an Armour Progression system too for the heavy, medium and light Armour types as you could have different types of medium armour like leather or types of chain mail as opposed to plate being heavy. Being able to mix as well as match the armour too so you can wear some medium plus some light or some heavy plus some medium or light without becoming too overweight like in New World. I don’t know if that’s too much though but we’ll see what happens after alpha testing.

    I also hope for armor progression. I loved it in ESO. Sure wish they would fix Cyrodiil.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Garrtok wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Garrtok wrote: »
    I am not questioning why it should be possible, iam questioning why you should do it / what the game is actually giving you to create different builds.
    Do it because you want to do it; not because you should do it.
    The people who want to do it are those who don't want to be stuck playing cookie-cutter builds.


    Garrtok wrote: »
    Giving a ranger the option to wear a sword, doesn't make it automatically fun to play, meaningful or deep. There have to be some some mechanics to specialise or alter, our class into a different roll. Iam also not getting this by having a weapon skill tree that increased my crit chance etc.
    If you don't want your Ranger to wield a Sword, don't have your Ranger wield a Sword.
    Combat role is primarily defined by Active Skills. Weapon Skills offer some variety in the details of how that role is performed.

    But don't you see that it's pointless to let a ranger use a sword, if there is nothing that works with a sword. There is no point in "do it because you want to" if half of your skills are not working anymore.

    equip a spear and aoe with your party
  • GarrtokGarrtok Member, Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    Garrtok wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Garrtok wrote: »
    I am not questioning why it should be possible, iam questioning why you should do it / what the game is actually giving you to create different builds.
    Do it because you want to do it; not because you should do it.
    The people who want to do it are those who don't want to be stuck playing cookie-cutter builds.


    Garrtok wrote: »
    Giving a ranger the option to wear a sword, doesn't make it automatically fun to play, meaningful or deep. There have to be some some mechanics to specialise or alter, our class into a different roll. Iam also not getting this by having a weapon skill tree that increased my crit chance etc.
    If you don't want your Ranger to wield a Sword, don't have your Ranger wield a Sword.
    Combat role is primarily defined by Active Skills. Weapon Skills offer some variety in the details of how that role is performed.

    But don't you see that it's pointless to let a ranger use a sword, if there is nothing that works with a sword. There is no point in "do it because you want to" if half of your skills are not working anymore.

    equip a spear and aoe with your party

    Thanks for your contribution.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Garrtok wrote: »
    And that is what this thread is about. What skills can I choose, what kinds of builds can I actually build? What options are there to have your own unique non standard build, that is actually using the non standard armor or weapons?
    I dunno what you think that question means.
    You use whichever armor or Weapons you think have stats that best accomodate the Active Skills you want to use.
    Although, with Weapons, you might want ones that have Weapon Skills that are very different than your Active Skills - I imagine you would probably still want your character's stats to boost the effects of you Weapon Skills.
  • AszkalonAszkalon Member, Alpha Two
    Garrtok wrote: »
    All weapons usable for every class - why ?






    ... ... ... :mrgreen: ... ... ...






    0tjemrdc7vyq.jpg
    a50whcz343yn.png
    ✓ Occasional Roleplayer
    ✓ Guild is " Balderag's Garde " for now. (German)
  • RenathrasRenathras Member, Alpha Two
    Cleric with a bow.

    Because why the heck not? :D
  • AszkalonAszkalon Member, Alpha Two
    Renathras wrote: »
    Cleric with a bow.

    Because why the heck not? :D

    Princess Zelda Build confirmed. ;)
    a50whcz343yn.png
    ✓ Occasional Roleplayer
    ✓ Guild is " Balderag's Garde " for now. (German)
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    Renathras wrote: »
    Cleric with a bow.

    Because why the heck not? :D

    Combat medic.

    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I played PnP RP for most of my life. I love the creative ways people built a character. It should be with MMOs as well, as that's where it's roots are from MMOrpg.
  • RenathrasRenathras Member, Alpha Two
    Not gonna lie, tried some game (Embers Adrift?) where the healer could use a Crossbow and I actually found it oddly amusing. :)
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