wow there is finally a races and classes page on here

Pendragxn

Dolyem wrote: »

Pendragxn wrote: »

Dolyem wrote: »

Pendragxn wrote: »

Dolyem wrote: »

Pendragxn wrote: »

It could be a part of the characters background choices where they’re from we don’t know yet, and besides you all do know you’re playing a game right. It’s funny like you want lore to explain why someone has a different skin colour, however I doubt you can even tell me the origin of magic. Why does magic exist in the world? Where did magic come from? How come you can wield or use magic? Oh yeah it’s a fantasy game… people are just so dense you want explanations for things that don’t even need answering because you know yourself irl. Honestly it’s just ridiculous that we have to have this debate or conversations in the first place.

So explanations are bad? Man, wait until Tolkien fans hear about how one of the most beloved fantasy worlds is trash for explaining things.

I think you’ll find that Tolkien never explained the origin or source of magic in his writing, and he just related it to the creative powers of a supreme deity that created the world. Again it’s fantasy so you say you don’t want something as basic as the gods did this or that but that’s exactly what Tolkien did… do you even do research before you say anything?

Oh please, go read Letter 155 from Tolkien. He even expresses a regret not being more descriptive about magic and goes into some details about it's nature and use.

He still never gave a logical reason why magic existed in the first place or what it was, and I think you’ll find he even struggled with that concept himself. It also didn’t come across the way he wanted it to and was more akin to abilities befitting the beings he created. Again it’s all just divine intervention regardless of if it was a god or a writer at the hands of it. You are literally playing a fantasy game and want a scientific logical reason for everything… then you deflect and try to bring Tolkien into it? What does that have to do with someone’s skin colour you literally make no sense, but I give up there’s no point talking to someone who’s just going to make me lose brain cells.

Dolyem wrote: »

To say "they all look different because the gods made them that way" is just lazy writing. And it robs the lore of backstory and development for in depth description of each race.

Prime example are the difference between the ape tulnar, the wolf tulnar, and the lizard tulnar. Why are all tulnar vastly different? "Just because" and "gods made them like that" is boring as hell

You are either literally contradicting yourself or have no clue what you’re talking about period.

my dude...the point is even Tolkien himself believed his world would have benefited from explaining the magic of it better...

Origins and explanations with details makes for better stories and lore. Otherwise you could get away with literally everything in the world youre making be gray blobs fighting gray blobs, for gray blob reasons, and gray blob ideals, all while never distinguishing between which gray blobs are the good or bad gray blobs, and which gray blobs are allies or enemies.

Arguing for the sake of less story sounds like arguing for the sake of arguing and no real end goal.

I think you just need to use your imagination more and keep an open mind, I mean people don't always fight over just skin colour it’s usually outside factors, such as religion, politics and power even being afraid of what they don’t know.

Again it’s a fantasy world as well as game so having logical explanations for everything when we can’t even explain our own true existence irl doesn’t make sense. People are allowed to have mixed skin colours or traits regardless of where they’re from in-game, and like I said if you can explain the logic or origin of magic to me then fine. However until that point it will all just be godly divine intervention in order to explain this fantasy world. I wouldn’t paint everything by so black and white as you are as that’s not how things work.

You are returning through a portal into a magical land besieged by corruption bad energy, and you fight against this bad energy as an opposing force or potentially good energy. The difference between good or evil is just two opposing energies however how do you judge someone to be good or evil that’s based on perception plus your understanding. Everyone has a different perception, motivation or understandings so until you realise that you can’t paint everything black, white or grey.

RationalThought

There are many examples of books where the human population is ethnically diverse in a single place. They all (good ones) have their explanation as to why this happened, be it migration due to world catastrophe, constant wars with slavery and ever-changing borders, massive worldspanding empires falling apart, or, like in the book series 'The Wheel of Time," you get an explanation with an unexpected twist. Usually the older the crafted world, the more mixed up are races and cultures.
I see absolutely zero problems with this "issue" in AOC. I love lore, so an in-game background on this topic would be nice but not obligatory. 

All this applies only if people in here or comment sections on other platforms are concerned in good faith. But it would be silly of me to think that.

On an actual topic of this thread: 
New art is done in poor quality. The old one was much better and showcased factions and cultures much better. Disappointing tbh.

Gaettusk

Did someone just cite Tolkien as a justification for not fleshing out the world re: race descriptors? Lol, wake me up when people stop trying to use Tolkien as a strawman/misrepresent literature for weird MMO agendas. Or better yet, wake me up when it gets to talking about how Ashes should have barely veiled Catholic doctrine/straight up just writing a fantasy version of Genesis because that's what Tolkien did. 😂

Dygz

Dolyem wrote: »

In reality there are plenty of people who claim people are made by a god or gods. People still look different based on where they developed.

To say "they all look different because the gods made them that way" is just lazy writing. And it robs the lore of backstory and development for in depth description of each race.

Prime example are the difference between the ape tulnar, the wolf tulnar, and the lizard tulnar. Why are all tulnar vastly different? "Just because" and "gods made them like that" is boring as hell

In reality, Gods do not exist.
On Verra, Gods do exist and the Gods truly created the inhabitants of Verra.
You'll notice that Tulnar and Elves also do not exist in realit, but on Verra were also created by the Gods.
"Lazy writing", ironically, is the laziest of critiques.

Dygz

Ulderek wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Who told you that the entire race of Vaelune will have tanned/dark skin??

Kia Ora
This is going a bit OT; but do you know if/think that the Nikua might have options for lighter skin and hair?

I expect the Niküa will have light to dark skin tones. Yes.
For sure, they will be able to have light grey to white hair. Will they be able to have blonde hair or auburn hair - I dunno. For all we know now, Niküa might be able to have blue or purple or pink hair.

Dolyem

Dygz wrote: »

Dolyem wrote: »

In reality there are plenty of people who claim people are made by a god or gods. People still look different based on where they developed.

To say "they all look different because the gods made them that way" is just lazy writing. And it robs the lore of backstory and development for in depth description of each race.

Prime example are the difference between the ape tulnar, the wolf tulnar, and the lizard tulnar. Why are all tulnar vastly different? "Just because" and "gods made them like that" is boring as hell

In reality, Gods do not exist.
On Verra, Gods do exist and the Gods truly created the inhabitants of Verra.
You'll notice that Tulnar and Elves also do not exist in realit, but on Verra were also created by the Gods.
"Lazy writing", ironically, is the laziest of critiques.

A lot of people debate that. I'm indifferent.

How is it a lazy critique? If the extent of your explanation of something is "just because", there isn't exactly a plethora of things to critique.

Dolyem

Gaettusk wrote: »

Did someone just cite Tolkien as a justification for not fleshing out the world re: race descriptors? Lol, wake me up when people stop trying to use Tolkien as a strawman/misrepresent literature for weird MMO agendas. Or better yet, wake me up when it gets to talking about how Ashes should have barely veiled Catholic doctrine/straight up just writing a fantasy version of Genesis because that's what Tolkien did. 😂

This

Dolyem

Pendragxn wrote: »

Dolyem wrote: »

Pendragxn wrote: »

Dolyem wrote: »

Pendragxn wrote: »

Dolyem wrote: »

Pendragxn wrote: »

It could be a part of the characters background choices where they’re from we don’t know yet, and besides you all do know you’re playing a game right. It’s funny like you want lore to explain why someone has a different skin colour, however I doubt you can even tell me the origin of magic. Why does magic exist in the world? Where did magic come from? How come you can wield or use magic? Oh yeah it’s a fantasy game… people are just so dense you want explanations for things that don’t even need answering because you know yourself irl. Honestly it’s just ridiculous that we have to have this debate or conversations in the first place.

So explanations are bad? Man, wait until Tolkien fans hear about how one of the most beloved fantasy worlds is trash for explaining things.

I think you’ll find that Tolkien never explained the origin or source of magic in his writing, and he just related it to the creative powers of a supreme deity that created the world. Again it’s fantasy so you say you don’t want something as basic as the gods did this or that but that’s exactly what Tolkien did… do you even do research before you say anything?

Oh please, go read Letter 155 from Tolkien. He even expresses a regret not being more descriptive about magic and goes into some details about it's nature and use.

He still never gave a logical reason why magic existed in the first place or what it was, and I think you’ll find he even struggled with that concept himself. It also didn’t come across the way he wanted it to and was more akin to abilities befitting the beings he created. Again it’s all just divine intervention regardless of if it was a god or a writer at the hands of it. You are literally playing a fantasy game and want a scientific logical reason for everything… then you deflect and try to bring Tolkien into it? What does that have to do with someone’s skin colour you literally make no sense, but I give up there’s no point talking to someone who’s just going to make me lose brain cells.

Dolyem wrote: »

To say "they all look different because the gods made them that way" is just lazy writing. And it robs the lore of backstory and development for in depth description of each race.

Prime example are the difference between the ape tulnar, the wolf tulnar, and the lizard tulnar. Why are all tulnar vastly different? "Just because" and "gods made them like that" is boring as hell

You are either literally contradicting yourself or have no clue what you’re talking about period.

my dude...the point is even Tolkien himself believed his world would have benefited from explaining the magic of it better...

Origins and explanations with details makes for better stories and lore. Otherwise you could get away with literally everything in the world youre making be gray blobs fighting gray blobs, for gray blob reasons, and gray blob ideals, all while never distinguishing between which gray blobs are the good or bad gray blobs, and which gray blobs are allies or enemies.

Arguing for the sake of less story sounds like arguing for the sake of arguing and no real end goal.

I think you just need to use your imagination more and keep an open mind, I mean people don't always fight over just skin colour it’s usually outside factors, such as religion, politics and power even being afraid of what they don’t know.

Again it’s a fantasy world as well as game so having logical explanations for everything when we can’t even explain our own true existence irl doesn’t make sense. People are allowed to have mixed skin colours or traits regardless of where they’re from in-game, and like I said if you can explain the logic or origin of magic to me then fine. However until that point it will all just be godly divine intervention in order to explain this fantasy world. I wouldn’t paint everything by so black and white as you are as that’s not how things work.

You are returning through a portal into a magical land besieged by corruption bad energy, and you fight against this bad energy as an opposing force or potentially good energy. The difference between good or evil is just two opposing energies however how do you judge someone to be good or evil that’s based on perception plus your understanding. Everyone has a different perception, motivation or understandings so until you realise that you can’t paint everything black, white or grey.

Using my imagination would involve fleshing out all of the reasons the different races are the way they are. Not settling for vague explanations that could instead be great stories

Aszkalon

Caeryl wrote: »

Verra hasn't been inhabited by any of these races for a long, long time. Whether the variation has always been there, or only occurred after the apocalypse that sent them running off to another world, doesn't really matter. .

Actually,

do You have any Idea what for a brilliant thing You just wrote ?

YEEEEEEEEEESSS !!! It can be explained with "this" !! That for Example the Kea'lar, Vealune - and all the other Races, had just one look before they evacuated to Mundus.

Then when they returned, they had more Variety of different Shades and Colors of Skin. People could use this as an Explanation.



If we are honest : People being able to make a "black Kae'lar" is only there because Sir Steven and his mighty Crew want to please all those People who would shriek and cry Racism otherwise. that is at least what i am thinking.

To bad for those People that Kae'lar won't have black (african) Building-Looks, huh ?? heheheheh.

I imagine the Nikua Dwarves having very african~ish Building Looks. Why ? Because well -> tropic, right ? Africa is the most tropic Continent i think and the Nikua are centered around the tropic Beach/Caribbean Biome-Look regarding their Houses.

nanfoodle

Well this unraveled quickly. Ashes has a very wide range on the races and skin tones for all. You can adjust your nose, cheeks and more on the intended creator. As far as body types. Get a grip if that's your problem. If you understand the amount of money it would cost to make armor fit every race and body types requested. Can we drop PC for just a min and play a game?

Dygz

Dolyem wrote: »

How is it a lazy critique? If the extent of your explanation of something is "just because", there isn't exactly a plethora of things to critique.

The explanation is not "just because". The explanation is that in this High Magic Fantasy setting Gods created people with the appearances They wanted - it's not "just natural biology" as it is in real life.
"Lazy writing" is typically the critique of someone who just doesn't like the explanations given.

Dolyem

Dygz wrote: »

Dolyem wrote: »

How is it a lazy critique? If the extent of your explanation of something is "just because", there isn't exactly a plethora of things to critique.

The explanation is not "just because". The explanation is that in this High Magic Fantasy setting Gods created people with the appearances They wanted - it's not "just natural biology" as it is in real life.
"Lazy writing" is typically the critique of someone who just doesn't like the explanations given.

Its just as dull due to it being pretty much the same thing. "Instead of reasoning, it was just a divine decision". Again, arguing that there should be less expansive lore is a really odd stance.

Gaettusk

Dygz wrote: »

Dolyem wrote: »

How is it a lazy critique? If the extent of your explanation of something is "just because", there isn't exactly a plethora of things to critique.

The explanation is not "just because". The explanation is that in this High Magic Fantasy setting Gods created people with the appearances They wanted - it's not "just natural biology" as it is in real life.
"Lazy writing" is typically the critique of someone who just doesn't like the explanations given.

The "just because"(which is exactly what this defense of the writing is [no matter the amount of protestation]) is more than enough to critique. Also, the Tulnar lore counters your "the Gods made it so" argument, in addition to the numerous in-game examples of evolutionary biology,genetics in taming/breeding, etc. It's not often one sees others taking a Creationism stance in a world of blatant evolution,but here we are.It's almost as ludicrous as one claiming that "bad writing" isn't valid literary criticism; it is, in fact, foundational to the field.

Dygz

Gaettusk wrote: »

Also, the Tulnar lore counters your "the Gods made it so" argument, in addition to the numerous in-game examples of evolutionary biology,genetics in taming/breeding, etc. It's not often one sees others taking a Creationism stance in a world of blatant evolution,but here we are.It's almost as ludicrous as one claiming that "bad writing" isn't valid literary criticism; it is, in fact, foundational to the field.

Evolution and Creationism co-exist in High Magic Fantasy settings.
No one stated that Creationism inherently negates Evolution.
The Creation of the Tulnar is not absent influence of magic and the Gods.
And... we're done.

Dolyem

Dygz wrote: »

Gaettusk wrote: »

Also, the Tulnar lore counters your "the Gods made it so" argument, in addition to the numerous in-game examples of evolutionary biology,genetics in taming/breeding, etc. It's not often one sees others taking a Creationism stance in a world of blatant evolution,but here we are.It's almost as ludicrous as one claiming that "bad writing" isn't valid literary criticism; it is, in fact, foundational to the field.

Evolution and Creationism co-exist in High Magic Fantasy settings.
No one stated that Creationism inherently negates Evolution.
The Creation of the Tulnar is not absent influence of magic and the Gods.
And... we're done.

And it provides plenty of avenues for backstory on why different races are the way they are with lots of detail, as well as the cultural and physical differences. Gods created everything? Alright, time to explain why everything has changed and evolved overtime, and provide lots of reasoning and stories revolving around their differences, nuances, and interactions leading to how things have come to be. Leaving it at "gods made everything that way" is the lazy writing route.
Again, arguing against in-depth lore is a weird hill to die on.

Gaettusk

Dygz wrote: »

Gaettusk wrote: »

Also, the Tulnar lore counters your "the Gods made it so" argument, in addition to the numerous in-game examples of evolutionary biology,genetics in taming/breeding, etc. It's not often one sees others taking a Creationism stance in a world of blatant evolution,but here we are.It's almost as ludicrous as one claiming that "bad writing" isn't valid literary criticism; it is, in fact, foundational to the field.

Evolution and Creationism co-exist in High Magic Fantasy settings.
No one stated that Creationism inherently negates Evolution.
The Creation of the Tulnar is not absent influence of magic and the Gods.
And... we're done.

I'd tuck tail and run with that cop-out too. Evolution and Creationism coexist in the real world, too; they added in acceptance of evolution as an afterthought in various derivatives. Also, the Gods in Ashes didn't create the Tulnar biodiversity, the Tulnar did. Which begs the question really: why did the Gods other the Others for their desire to pervert the creation of the Gods, but the Tulnar who did the same are treated kindly? Also, I see why you pivoted to "just because" again; that 'but it's magic' fail back for illogical, inconsistent writing is a powerful drug; akin to the people who complain about dark-skinned races being evil or orcs being irl representations of certain groups—basically, people who bring their irl baggage to fantasy discussions to derail criticism.

It's high fantasy, not high magic btw.

Pendragxn

Gaettusk wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Gaettusk wrote: »

Also, the Tulnar lore counters your "the Gods made it so" argument, in addition to the numerous in-game examples of evolutionary biology,genetics in taming/breeding, etc. It's not often one sees others taking a Creationism stance in a world of blatant evolution,but here we are.It's almost as ludicrous as one claiming that "bad writing" isn't valid literary criticism; it is, in fact, foundational to the field.

Evolution and Creationism co-exist in High Magic Fantasy settings.
No one stated that Creationism inherently negates Evolution.
The Creation of the Tulnar is not absent influence of magic and the Gods.
And... we're done.

I'd tuck tail and run with that cop-out too. Evolution and Creationism coexist in the real world, too; they added in acceptance of evolution as an afterthought in various derivatives. Also, the Gods in Ashes didn't create the Tulnar biodiversity, the Tulnar did. Which begs the question really: why did the Gods other the Others for their desire to pervert the creation of the Gods, but the Tulnar who did the same are treated kindly? Also, I see why you pivoted to "just because" again; that 'but it's magic' fail back for illogical, inconsistent writing is a powerful drug; akin to the people who complain about dark-skinned races being evil or orcs being irl representations of certain groups—basically, people who bring their irl baggage to fantasy discussions to derail criticism.

It's high fantasy, not high magic btw.

Why do gods create things that evolve or change? Why do gods create Demi-gods? Why do demi-gods or other gods kill other gods? Why do gods have mortal desires for power? Why are we created in gods image having the intellectual power of creation just like god? Why are things still evolving on the earth at this moment or adapting? Why did Eve eat the apple did god make her that way so she was tainted at the moment of creation?

Oh yeah because it’s a fantasy! Even so better yet it’s a game!

I think you’re high on magic I’m not going to lie I feel like I’m talking to one of the crazies on the internet XD

Go play Eve Online or something… zZZ

Dygz

Exactly.

Dolyem

Still not hearing good reasons to not go in-depth with the lore. For some reason your only arguments is it isnt necessary, yet not one negative has been pitched for "more details in lore".

Dezmerizing

Dolyem wrote: »

Personal opinion... the art looks like recent 5e DND art....and that isnt a compliment.

Hahah, I might be biased (I am a TTRPG player) but I loved the new 2D art on the website. X] Just specifically cause it gave me the TTRPG feeling. 11/10 in my opinion!

Solbranthius

Dolyem wrote: »

Still not hearing good reasons to not go in-depth with the lore. For some reason your only arguments is it isnt necessary, yet not one negative has been pitched for "more details in lore".

I don't think you will get any. There's a deep divide between those who want any given setting to maintain a strong degree of consistency with its world building and those who don't care if the setting decides to random add modern day attire, modern day big city demographics and multi-coloured hair to appease the 'lol my oc is so quirky and unique xD'.

My personally favoured approach is to just make a handful of distinct sub-groups for the various playable races. If we use, say, TESO as an example of an MMO that does that it allows the Bretons, Nords, Imperials and Redguards to each be distinct both visually and culturally. Architecture and furniture, too, is unique as a consequence (for player housing) and it provides a deeper sense of immersion and role-play opportunities as a result.

Gaettusk

Pendragxn wrote: »

Gaettusk wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Gaettusk wrote: »

Also, the Tulnar lore counters your "the Gods made it so" argument, in addition to the numerous in-game examples of evolutionary biology,genetics in taming/breeding, etc. It's not often one sees others taking a Creationism stance in a world of blatant evolution,but here we are.It's almost as ludicrous as one claiming that "bad writing" isn't valid literary criticism; it is, in fact, foundational to the field.

Evolution and Creationism co-exist in High Magic Fantasy settings.
No one stated that Creationism inherently negates Evolution.
The Creation of the Tulnar is not absent influence of magic and the Gods.
And... we're done.

I'd tuck tail and run with that cop-out too. Evolution and Creationism coexist in the real world, too; they added in acceptance of evolution as an afterthought in various derivatives. Also, the Gods in Ashes didn't create the Tulnar biodiversity, the Tulnar did. Which begs the question really: why did the Gods other the Others for their desire to pervert the creation of the Gods, but the Tulnar who did the same are treated kindly? Also, I see why you pivoted to "just because" again; that 'but it's magic' fail back for illogical, inconsistent writing is a powerful drug; akin to the people who complain about dark-skinned races being evil or orcs being irl representations of certain groups—basically, people who bring their irl baggage to fantasy discussions to derail criticism.

It's high fantasy, not high magic btw.

Why do gods create things that evolve or change? Why do gods create Demi-gods? Why do demi-gods or other gods kill other gods? Why do gods have mortal desires for power? Why are we created in gods image having the intellectual power of creation just like god? Why are things still evolving on the earth at this moment or adapting? Why did Eve eat the apple did god make her that way so she was tainted at the moment of creation?

Oh yeah because it’s a fantasy! Even so better yet it’s a game!

I think you’re high on magic I’m not going to lie I feel like I’m talking to one of the crazies on the internet XD

Go play Eve Online or something… zZZ

Lot of typing without realizing Steven has Tulnar lore for a reason. "But magic/but the gods" is universally understood as bad writing. Try again, but with less failed snark this time.