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APEX ORDER statement of events regarding Actual Pirates 11-2-24

245

Comments

  • SpyMaskSpyMask Member, Alpha Two
    edited November 8
    Ayyy lmao
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    You can try and form an alliance against them.

    You can try to form another guild they are not upset with.

    You can try to infiltrate them and weaken them from inside.

    There are countless creative in-game tactics you could use.

    If I was in Apex I would leave. Join another guild. Join pirates. Just don't stay with someone who can't lead you in game.
    TVMenSP.png
    This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
  • PirateSoftwarePirateSoftware Member, Alpha Two
    Funny larp but you've intentionally twisted a number of things here.

    VladCervantes was your guild member that let us know you were mass reporting my account to get me banned. He was also the person we killed at the shrine. Why would the guild member you "counseled" be the one outing your group for this behavior?

    Further, your guild members continuously entered my Twitch stream chat, were banned, and then returned on alt accounts. Twitch shows us ban evading accounts so this was trivial to identify and deal with.

    Overall you FAFO here. If you would have left it at in-game PVP it would have just been good fights. Extending that to attempted banning via mass reports makes this KoS order permanent.

    Leave that kind of behavior in EVE next time and you won't have problems like this.

    - Maldavius
  • ArthrexArthrex Member, Alpha Two
    Imagine the balls to lie while there is VIDEO EVIDENCE
  • RuthLess111RuthLess111 Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    APEX ORDER, If you declare a war, you must man up for it or leave your guild. That's how you play the game.
  • You sound like you're one of those parents who goes to a restaurant and demands special privileges for you and your children, and then threatens to leave a bad yelp review when you don't get your way. For the sake of your children, grow up.
  • LadyofGamesLadyofGames Member, Alpha Two
    Bromel wrote: »
    I am a 44 year old. I do not and have not ever watched streamers, nor do I have the desire to. I did not know who Pirate Software was. In the group were my daughter, and my 13 year old son. We were testing a game that we love and engaged in pvp for fun. It was not a group of hardcore pvpers it was a family group.

    This right here makes me lose all respect for you. Your age, nor your kids, have anything to do with the situation. Using your kids to garner sympathy is just downright low and gross behavior.
  • DeeSavDeeSav Member, Alpha Two
    Andi wrote: »
    Also what's that about spawn camping and exploiting the corruption bug?

    If you declare war on a guild you do not gain corruption when you kill them. GvG is not a bug its a feature. Anyone with that guild tag is free game for a time.
  • AuryAury Member, Alpha Two
    edited November 8
    I invite everyone to look at PirateSoftware’s VOD from five days ago, when this happened. They say they didn’t know he was there, but it’s a blatant lie. At the 45 minute mark in the VOD, you can see PirateSoftware’s group standing right next to a group of Apex. This is before Apex ambushes his group while he is reporting the bug. They knew he was there.
  • This is all happening just because you guys were going to mass report him to get him banned, if you guys handled this in a diplomatic way this wouldn't be happening. He isn't doing this to make the people in your guild leave the game, he wants them to leave your guild. He literally has video evidence of everything whether you knew about this or not. You are the leader of your guild and are responsible for the stupid things they do and when they do stupid things they are going to be consequences, it's how PVP works. If you don't like what is happening, change your guild name or start over. If not it's going to be KoS forever.
  • braaibraai Member
    edited November 8
    You can see Vlad running after Thor and using say chat at around 44mins in this stream VOD. I really don't believe that they weren't stream sniping, or that they didn't know who Thor was.

    I understand that this was before these events happened. OP's version of events don't make a lot of sense when there's video evidence against it.

    At around 1h50m in the same VOD they killed Thor and set this drama off.

    o5r7usl20snu.png

    Reben was present before the attack:
    giid6vazdrfb.png

    Reben was present during the attack an hour later:
    qqyt9ocsbmyb.png

  • zxbiohazardzxzxbiohazardzx Member, Alpha Two
    This has got to be the funniest debate ive seen on a forum as of yet. you encountered them about 39 minutes into the stream, then used 39 minutes to form up a gankteam that struck when he was bugreporting. then go complain that ActualPirates is doing some bad things and complaining to GM's to get them banned.

    if i had a guild, id literally declare you Kill On Sight as well for being toxic to my community and trying to get people banned for something you started (by pvping)

    the PvP is fine. but do face that you made a mistake. contact them and apologise for the out-game reporting and de-escalate it properly instead of complaining on forums all over the internet.

  • LodrigLodrig Member
    edited November 8
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    daveywavey wrote: »
    Are we really classing the game's forum as disconnected from the game?

    Yes, the forum is out of the game world.

    Well then so is Streaming and the initial Social media drama from Pirates. I don't see how you can say Apex is the party out of line for 'taking it out of game' when a streamer zerg guilds entire EXISTENCE is an explicit use of out of game social media to bolster themselves in game.
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    What thor has done here may seem like a over reaction. To me it's quite brilliant that he has used this moment to teach the community about consequences in ashes.

    Here again your explicity endorsing thor's use of 'out of game' channels to communicate 'to the community' a message. You just seem to be saying that Pirates has the privlage of using social media to conduct guild propaganda (showing the community their wrath against a percived transgression) is legit, but anyone else pushing back with their own propaganda is out of line somehow for doing it 'out of game'.

    As far as I am concerned when Thor declared a vendeta on another guild on stream he made out of game spaces fair game for Apex to use for their counter-propaganda. And lets not be under any illusions, this is a propaganda battle now, something which has always traditionally been done out of game for decades in MMO's.

    Even Pirates don't seem to be making this argument that Apex posting is illegitimate because of WHERE they did it, they are just calling Apex narrative a lie and pushing their own narrative as the truth. Maybe they understand how pathetic it would look to make this 'how dare you take this out of game' accusation from their position.
  • VioletLilyVioletLily Member, Alpha Two
    If you remove the names and minor celebrity statuses, the issue is the same.

    Guild A pisses off Guild B.
    Guild B retaliates.
    Since Guild B has more members, higher levels, and/or better skill, they crush Guild A.

    Guild A now has a few choices:
    1.) Guild A try to reason with Guild B. Maybe offer an apology, maybe offer gold, maybe offer to become an ally.

    Guild B does NOT have to accept, remember this is a social interaction. Not all humans are reasonable. Real life wars have been started for less than the death of a general, whether intentional or not, and retaliation to a perceived wrong have gone for generations.

    2.) Guild A can try to fight back. They can engage in gorilla warfare. They can form or join an alliance. They can hire mercenaries, go on forums and say, I’ll pay x amount of gold for every confirmed kill of a member of Guild B.

    3.) Guild A can disband. Remember it is just a game. I understand being attached to your guild name, but in this specific case Guild B is NOT going after individuals named members, they’re looking for anyone who wears their enemies colors.

    Like many interested in this game I have been playing social sandbox MMO’s a long time, and this has ALWAYS happened, 20 years ago on WoW you would find situations EXACTLY like this.

    And guess what? Since it’s a game you don’t HAVE to engage with it. As I stated above, there are many things Guild A can do that can mitigate or remove from themselves situation.

    It’s a game friends. There is no harassment going on here. To my knowledge there is no spawn camping. There are no real life threats of bodily harm or egregious verbal harassment either in game chat or on socials outside the game. No one is backed into a corner, completely out of options.

    Personally I hope we can all get along and have fun. And if this isn’t your idea of fun, engage in a different way or not at all. It’s a game my friends. I’m always sorry to see people getting emotionally hurt as a result. I hope everyone stays happy and healthy.
  • bispingbisping Member, Alpha Two
    the beatings will stop if you leave your guild :)
  • PhoebusGPhoebusG Member, Alpha Two
    There is no Mercenary Services in this new realm yet, hint, maybe good time to start, as per post above, ie generic Guild A, Guild B analysis, and, having served many many years in KIA Corp, and Mercenary Alliance on Eve Online, I see that, now, and soon, Mercenary Services will be required, soon. Someone could get this started, even on Alpha, because why not? Clearly there is need, and that'd be an IN-GAME way to deal with things, and even in-role (RP) :wink:
  • zxbiohazardzxzxbiohazardzx Member, Alpha Two
    VioletLily wrote: »
    If you remove the names and minor celebrity statuses, the issue is the same.

    Guild A pisses off Guild B.
    Guild B retaliates.
    Since Guild B has more members, higher levels, and/or better skill, they crush Guild A.

    Guild A now has a few choices:
    1.) Guild A try to reason with Guild B. Maybe offer an apology, maybe offer gold, maybe offer to become an ally.

    Guild B does NOT have to accept, remember this is a social interaction. Not all humans are reasonable. Real life wars have been started for less than the death of a general, whether intentional or not, and retaliation to a perceived wrong have gone for generations.

    2.) Guild A can try to fight back. They can engage in gorilla warfare. They can form or join an alliance. They can hire mercenaries, go on forums and say, I’ll pay x amount of gold for every confirmed kill of a member of Guild B.

    3.) Guild A can disband. Remember it is just a game. I understand being attached to your guild name, but in this specific case Guild B is NOT going after individuals named members, they’re looking for anyone who wears their enemies colors.

    Like many interested in this game I have been playing social sandbox MMO’s a long time, and this has ALWAYS happened, 20 years ago on WoW you would find situations EXACTLY like this.

    And guess what? Since it’s a game you don’t HAVE to engage with it. As I stated above, there are many things Guild A can do that can mitigate or remove from themselves situation.

    It’s a game friends. There is no harassment going on here. To my knowledge there is no spawn camping. There are no real life threats of bodily harm or egregious verbal harassment either in game chat or on socials outside the game. No one is backed into a corner, completely out of options.

    Personally I hope we can all get along and have fun. And if this isn’t your idea of fun, engage in a different way or not at all. It’s a game my friends. I’m always sorry to see people getting emotionally hurt as a result. I hope everyone stays happy and healthy.


    this summarises it perfectly. Apex has the options:

    1) Apologise and try to ally
    2) Fight back
    2A) Find allies to overpower Pirates
    2B) Hurt them from underground/guerrilla warfare
    3) Disband / End the hostility


    the "issue" only kicked off the face of the earth when they started to request bans and complained to GM's that the mere existance of a big guild is the issue on gameplay. its not. its your inability to deal with big guilds and the warfare. you kicked the ball, but are not ready to play the gmae


  • LyeosLyeos Member, Alpha Two
    VioletLily wrote: »
    2.) Guild A can try to fight back. They can engage in gorilla warfare.
    I think you meant guerilla warfare.
    If not, I badly want to know what gorilla warfare is.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    @Lodrig

    We get it. You don't like streamers.

    Thor is free to stream and he seems to accept the consequences that. The evidence is that he more than likely got stream snipped and he accepted that risk when he went live in a open world game.

    It's a double edged sword. He is constantly giving information to his potential enemies. Like his location.

    He is not the one that is on Reddit, discord, and here crying and mass reporting people because his failure in leadership.

    It's so easy for a guild to make a internal list of other guilds to mess with and to not mess with. If Apex did not have that or their members where not aware of it. That is awful leadership.

    I would also argue that the stream takes place in the game world much more than discord, x, Reddit or this forum. At least on the stream you are literally seeing the game world in real time.

    Yes is is a little out of game, but not to the degree of mass reporting.
    TVMenSP.png
    This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
  • I just saw this drama and I am definitely paying 120 bucks to attack Apex Order under Thor's Kill on Sight Order! FOR THE PIRATES!
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    edited November 8
    Bromel wrote: »
    As the Team Lead of Apex Order, a guild that doesn't have a million person captive audience, we are using this medium to share our experience with Pirate Software.
    These events are the result of a misunderstanding with unfortunate timing. They are further littered with false accusations, baseless claims, and what we see as a gross overreaction that violates the spirit of the testing environment.

    Earlier in the afternoon of 11.2.24 a group of Apex Order members were farming inside the Ursin Cave on the top level. A group from Actual Pirates came in the cave several times as they were farming the mobs on the lower level. Both parties passed each other and cleared bears together for an extended time without hostilities. At one point the group from Actual Pirates stopped where our group was sitting. Actual Pirates immediately flagged and engaged killing our group's cleric and several others. Our group was surprise attacked and defeated, it's part of the game. Our group revived and moved to a different location to avoid further conflict. We moved to a location outside of Ursin Caves on the south side of that mountain farming bears.

    Later that evening our group was still pulling bears from all over the hill side. One of our pullers heard combat and went to have a look. A group of Actual Pirates was farming bears right over the hill from us on the north side. Members that were in our group were also in the group that was killed earlier by the group from AP. Our group then gathered to engage in pvp with AP as a continuation of the earlier engagement over Ursin Caves.

    We had no previous knowledge that the streamer known as Pirate Software was in the group we were about to engage. We had no way of knowing that he was writing a bug report. All of that information we found out after the fact. When we engaged the group of Actual Pirates we did not even see Pirate Software whose character is 'Maldavious' until he emerged from behind the group. He was only then engaged in combat.

    I am a 44 year old. I do not and have not ever watched streamers, nor do I have the desire to. I did not know who Pirate Software was. In the group were my daughter, and my 13 year old son. We were testing a game that we love and engaged in pvp for fun. It was not a group of hardcore pvpers it was a family group. We did not travel across the map to find him or stream snipe Pirate Software. We merely happened upon the Actual Pirate group because we were in the same area killing bears just over the hill from them. We had absolutely no idea Pirate Software was writing a bug report at the time. When we later learned he was in the middle of a bug report we issued an apology. If we had that knowledge previously we would not have attacked the Actual Pirates group. There was no way for us to know this. It was unfortunate timing.

    We had planned to not loot any Actual Pirates, as was said to them by one of our members. Even in pvp we can have respect for one another. GG Actual Pirates got a group of us, Apex Order got a group of them. This type of pvp is in the spirit of the game design. The Apex Order group was heading to town to log for the night. We did not plan to come back and prolong a conflict. We left the area, with the intent of letting the Actual Pirate group get back to enjoying/testing the game.

    Again this started as a misunderstanding.

    The events that followed...
    An Apex Order recruit had died and respawned at the shrine outside of Ursin Caves. He spawned into a group of Actual Pirates that were also at the shrine. The Actual Pirates group including Pirate Software then killed this Apex recruit. As he tried to respawn they continued to kill him up to four times, camping him at the shrine. After repeated deaths, speaking from frustration the Apex recruit said he was going to report Actual Pirates for shrine camping. Moments after being made aware what was said, Apex Order leadership counseled this recruit. This was merely a heated exchange after pvp. No reports were made by this recruit nor any of our members. This was then blown out of proportion by Pirate Software claiming on stream our entire team was going to mass report him. This was yet another baseless accusation.

    The following day as some of our Apex members began to log in. Our members were attacked in town by Actual Pirates, while at the vendor, storage and crafting tables. There were multiple instances of these attacks in town by Actual Pirates across several nodes. After killing the Apex member in town, Actual Pirates would then run to the shrine to kill the player again as they spawned at the shrine. Sometimes this would go on for upwards of several deaths to the same player. Actual Pirates players would never go corrupted despite attacking unflagged players that were not fighting back. Sometimes killing them while they were still in the loading screen from the previous death.

    While still in development the corruption system and town guards do not (as of yet) offer any protection to non combatant players in Alpha 2, Phase 1 testing. Some members from Actual Pirates are taking advantage of this by locking down town nodes. Attacking any of our members that are seen within the nodes. Because of Actual Pirates massive membership they can easily lock our members out of every node, denying them access to test any content within the node itself. We believe this is outside the scope of Steven's vision for pvp risk vs reward. This style of game play only hurts player's experience and their ability to actively test systems for Intrepid Studios.

    In Steven's own words "Now the question is, when risk becomes something that doesn't stop other players from impacting your gameplay in a negative and harassing and repetitive manner. The motivation to do that action is less about their personal advancement and more about impacting your gameplay, because when they elicit the response of anger or rage from the player, they feel a sense of accomplishment. That in my opinion is what griefing is. It is outside of the expectation of the gameplay behavior that is communicated in the design philosophy." – Steven Sharif

    Apex Order members follow a strict set of Rules Of Engagement during the Alpha 2 testing. These rules include 1. No pvp combat within the town nodes 2. No spawn shrine camping. We hold our members to a higher standard, even if other guilds do not. We believe in the vision and development of Ashes of Creation and wish to give other testers the respect they deserve.

    In conclusion....
    Pirate Software's stated intent on his stream, is to harass an entire guild, until they leave the server, during the Alpha testing phase of a game.

    Apex Order was falsely accused of a stream snipe by Pirate Software. From the time the Apex Order group attacked the Actual Pirate group it took Pirate Software less than a minute to falsely accuse us of a streamer snipe as shown on his twitch stream.

    Apex Order was falsely accused of knowingly attacking while Pirate Software was writing a bug report. We had no way of knowing this.

    Apex Order was falsely accused of mass reporting in an attempt to get a ban on Pirate Software. As detailed in our statement, no reports of any kind by any of our members were ever made. Go ask customer service, we'll wait.

    Apex Order leadership has reached out to Pirate Software in private correspondence explaining the misunderstanding and seeking a retraction of his false accusations to no avail.

    All of the false accusations are a result of Pirate Software being pvped in a PvX game. Are streamers untouchable in pvp?
    If you do kill a streamer what is stopping them from accusing you of a stream snipe? They can accuse you without limit or evidence.
    The attacks on Apex Order membership and content gating are the result of a massive streamer zerg guild mentality on a smaller guild.

    Team Lead
    Apex Order - AoC
    -Bromel

    honestly who cares if thor was writing a bug report. afking in a open world PVP game and complaining you get killed lmao its your own fault. i liked him but after reading this, jesus thor stop whining.

    also, I believe intrepid has said no shrine camping. should have reported them IMO.

    also, why are you complaining in the forums about this? lol
    open world PVP game
  • mobtekmobtek Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Imagine going to GM's to complain about PvP in a PvX game, in an ALPHA no less!
    (the KoS and their response it totally within the game scope) and lie about what you did in the process when there is video, lol.

    86bghazryr9p.gif
  • ArthrexArthrex Member, Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »

    honestly who cares if thor was writing a bug report. afking in a open world PVP game and complaining you get killed lmao its your own fault. i liked him but after reading this, jesus thor stop whining.

    also, I believe intrepid has said no shrine camping. should have reported them IMO.

    also, why are you complaining in the forums about this? lol
    open world PVP game

    It shows you didn't read nor understand the situation.

    Thor didn't whine. He used the resources he possesses and called out a KOS AFTER he learned about Apex talking about mass reporting HIM. By one of Apex's ex-members (who quit because of this).

    He then continued to call out the blatant lies spread by Apex they try to spread to fit their own narrative, while Thor ALSO provides video evidence of the true events.

  • AndiAndi Member, Alpha Two
    Funny larp but you've intentionally twisted a number of things here.

    VladCervantes was your guild member that let us know you were mass reporting my account to get me banned. He was also the person we killed at the shrine. Why would the guild member you "counseled" be the one outing your group for this behavior?

    Further, your guild members continuously entered my Twitch stream chat, were banned, and then returned on alt accounts. Twitch shows us ban evading accounts so this was trivial to identify and deal with.

    Overall you FAFO here. If you would have left it at in-game PVP it would have just been good fights. Extending that to attempted banning via mass reports makes this KoS order permanent.

    Leave that kind of behavior in EVE next time and you won't have problems like this.

    - Maldavius

    You didn't answer my question:

    Also what's that about spawn camping and exploiting the corruption bug?
  • ArthrexArthrex Member, Alpha Two
    Andi wrote: »
    Funny larp but you've intentionally twisted a number of things here.

    VladCervantes was your guild member that let us know you were mass reporting my account to get me banned. He was also the person we killed at the shrine. Why would the guild member you "counseled" be the one outing your group for this behavior?

    Further, your guild members continuously entered my Twitch stream chat, were banned, and then returned on alt accounts. Twitch shows us ban evading accounts so this was trivial to identify and deal with.

    Overall you FAFO here. If you would have left it at in-game PVP it would have just been good fights. Extending that to attempted banning via mass reports makes this KoS order permanent.

    Leave that kind of behavior in EVE next time and you won't have problems like this.

    - Maldavius

    You didn't answer my question:

    Also what's that about spawn camping and exploiting the corruption bug?

    Feeling entitled much? Do your own research. Corruption sometimes worked and sometimes it didn't. They implemented a potential fix for it this round of Alpha Access. What you are basically demanding is that nobody engages in PvP. Furthermore, calling 3-4 kills camping is a bit of a stretch. Guess you never played WoW and really camped someone. I've killed the same person about 40 times in STV over a period of 3 hours after he repeatedly ganked a guild mate.
  • So basically, f around and find out situation. Can't blame anyone in this case.
  • SteelxRavenSteelxRaven Member, Alpha Two
    In the end no matter who wronged who, Apex has several options:
    1. Live with the kos in game. Suck it up.
    2. De-escalate with pirates even if you feel wronged so your players and yourself can enjoy the game (fyi this thread is not a de-escalation post, wrong tone)
    3. Man up, find a way to fight back, recruite people or find ways to stick it to the bigger guild. Use it as fuel for your own content. Ambush every small party of pirates you see, they put your guild on kos, do it right back.
    4. Run away, turn tail everytime you see a pirate, go to a different server, or leave the game.

    Only extra point even with a kos in place camping a spawn for more than one death is not cool or fun for either party.
  • SathragoSathrago Member, Alpha Two
    Im fully expecting guild collapse at this point. I can only imagine how pissed off many of their guilds members are at the ones in their ranks that started this mess.

    Well, we will know for sure after this weekend how it turns out once they "get to play" again. lol
    8vf24h7y7lio.jpg
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • AndiAndi Member, Alpha Two
    Arthrex wrote: »
    Andi wrote: »
    Funny larp but you've intentionally twisted a number of things here.

    VladCervantes was your guild member that let us know you were mass reporting my account to get me banned. He was also the person we killed at the shrine. Why would the guild member you "counseled" be the one outing your group for this behavior?

    Further, your guild members continuously entered my Twitch stream chat, were banned, and then returned on alt accounts. Twitch shows us ban evading accounts so this was trivial to identify and deal with.

    Overall you FAFO here. If you would have left it at in-game PVP it would have just been good fights. Extending that to attempted banning via mass reports makes this KoS order permanent.

    Leave that kind of behavior in EVE next time and you won't have problems like this.

    - Maldavius

    You didn't answer my question:

    Also what's that about spawn camping and exploiting the corruption bug?

    Feeling entitled much? Do your own research. Corruption sometimes worked and sometimes it didn't. They implemented a potential fix for it this round of Alpha Access. What you are basically demanding is that nobody engages in PvP. Furthermore, calling 3-4 kills camping is a bit of a stretch. Guess you never played WoW and really camped someone. I've killed the same person about 40 times in STV over a period of 3 hours after he repeatedly ganked a guild mate.

    Remove thine filthy presence, peasant.
    I asked PirateSoftware.
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