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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Lawless zones need to be a permanent feature
mainedutch
Member, Alpha Two
Alright, we all know that PvP is a highly contentious subject right now.
Many people are saying making PvP toggleable. Many say make PvE servers. Many say remove corruption.
All of those ideas are bad. Now, I'm not saying my idea is the answer, but I'm offering appeasement. I also want to make it abundantly clear we're nowhere near when features and systems are being refined. We're not even a month into preliminary stability testing. We're only making sure the game plays normally and stays online.
I heavily believe that this game needs to remain true to its form: PvP anywhere, anytime---but at a cost. You need repercussions for killing someone in normal zones. But corruption is a bit heavy-handed (we also know it's temporarily over tuned). If someone takes my corpse loot, I can't fight them for my loot back because I get penalized with corruption even though they were the thief. That's a small example, but not this post's point...
The point of this post is that lawless zones need to be a core part of the world, and not just on the seas.
As of now, lawless zones are only intended to remain in the Alpha and not the actual game upon release. From the AoC Wiki: "Lawless zones are open-world areas where the corruption system is disabled. These are intended to be an Alpha-2-only feature to help test what will become open-sea content."
There should always be the threat of PvP in the normal zones, and it should come with corruption (agreeable). That adds interest and risk to the gameplay. It also makes gankers think twice before jumping on you.
But there needs to be lawless zones with attractions to bring people into the zones so those PvP maniacs can get their fill. This will offer more balance to the gameplay, giving a place for PvPers to go knowing they will always get sum' and even deter them from becoming griefers because it's their only option.
I think there are plenty of PvP events planned already, but a lot of PvPers aren't satisfied with it. I hope this helps.
...
Friendly note: don't get angry about features and systems until well into Phase 3 of Alpha. That's when they're going to start fleshing these things out. If it's still bad at the end of Phase 3, then you can be mad. Also, don't tell me this game was marketed as a "PvP game." It's always been PvX, and corruption was always on the docket.
Many people are saying making PvP toggleable. Many say make PvE servers. Many say remove corruption.
All of those ideas are bad. Now, I'm not saying my idea is the answer, but I'm offering appeasement. I also want to make it abundantly clear we're nowhere near when features and systems are being refined. We're not even a month into preliminary stability testing. We're only making sure the game plays normally and stays online.
I heavily believe that this game needs to remain true to its form: PvP anywhere, anytime---but at a cost. You need repercussions for killing someone in normal zones. But corruption is a bit heavy-handed (we also know it's temporarily over tuned). If someone takes my corpse loot, I can't fight them for my loot back because I get penalized with corruption even though they were the thief. That's a small example, but not this post's point...
The point of this post is that lawless zones need to be a core part of the world, and not just on the seas.
As of now, lawless zones are only intended to remain in the Alpha and not the actual game upon release. From the AoC Wiki: "Lawless zones are open-world areas where the corruption system is disabled. These are intended to be an Alpha-2-only feature to help test what will become open-sea content."
There should always be the threat of PvP in the normal zones, and it should come with corruption (agreeable). That adds interest and risk to the gameplay. It also makes gankers think twice before jumping on you.
But there needs to be lawless zones with attractions to bring people into the zones so those PvP maniacs can get their fill. This will offer more balance to the gameplay, giving a place for PvPers to go knowing they will always get sum' and even deter them from becoming griefers because it's their only option.
I think there are plenty of PvP events planned already, but a lot of PvPers aren't satisfied with it. I hope this helps.
...
Friendly note: don't get angry about features and systems until well into Phase 3 of Alpha. That's when they're going to start fleshing these things out. If it's still bad at the end of Phase 3, then you can be mad. Also, don't tell me this game was marketed as a "PvP game." It's always been PvX, and corruption was always on the docket.
6
Comments
Also, is it that your requirement for this is very very specific? Like, 'this specific area must always be lawless at all times'?
Because I would personally prefer the more 'standard' version of this where the combat zones change. If the Open Seas and possibly the related islands aren't enough for you, that's different from 'the feeling that the game doesn't have any of this'.
As for the dissatisfied PvPers, they were always gonna be next to go after the dissatisfied PvEers. Let them go. They have places to go now, or will soon.
"Lawless zones are open-world areas where the corruption system is disabled. These are intended to be an Alpha-2-only feature to help test what will become open-sea content" via AoC Wiki.
They are not intended for the released version of the game, and they currently have little for attractions (no incentive to go there). Sorry, I forgot to include this and edited it in shortly after posting.
It doesn't need to be that specific, but if it's called a lawless zone, it usually remains lawless. I'm not against the idea of 'warring' zones, sorta like in ArcheAge. I think that could work equally as well. I think putting a time on it too would make more people go there, probably, since they'd be like "Oh, it's PvP time. Gotta get it while I can!"
And don't mistake me: this isn't for me lol. I'm trying to quell the angry PvPers and make everyone happy. I like the corruption system (not in its current state) and the PvP options that are planned to be available for us at launch. But we can appease both sides (PvE/PvP) by giving the latter a place to go when they want open world PvP.
And I truly think this game can (and will) appease both audiences once the systems are finished. I'd rather not say 'let them go' unless the game's foundations really go against what they're looking for.
I just meant the people who will never be satisfied unless they can do things like 'kill travelers on the road without any system penalty'. The sort of people who are mad that TL dungeons are only PvP at night because 'but then everyone can leave!'
On the other hand, I get the 'frustration' of 'I logged on to PvP and there are no PvP zones right now'.
And yeah, those PvPers will and should never have a place. You need a damn good reason to kill someone nonconsensually, and it's up to you to decide whether the reward is worth the corruption (whether it's a gatherable, the farming spot, or just because you want the blood). I believe in that system.
Hell, I murdered a guy yesterday because he looted my body. Unfortunately, everyone and their mother jumped on me afterward because I turned red, which I think is unfair, but hopefully, that gets worked out in time. In all honesty, I believe everyone should be granted 1 free kill before getting severely punished by corruption.
I also think giving angry PvPers a place to truly kill whatever they want will help lessen their irritation. The thing is there have to be reasons for players to go there besides "I can kill anything that moves" else it'll be dead.
Yea, I think stealing resources from someone should flag you.
Couldn't agree more. Loot a player's corpse = 5-minute PvP flag.
Disagree with getting flagged due to looting, if you didn’t contribute to the kill why get punished?
Also, few big mobs have died on the spot of other players deaths and its accidentally looted the persons body instead of the dead PvE, bit unfair and it’s a bit of a materials loss anyway?
Flagging for looting other player's corpses is already being implemented, fortunately. We learned that this weekend. It makes sense: they're literally stealing your stuff---that's why they're being flagged for PvP.
Plus, if you haven't seen much PvP, I'm curious why you wouldn't welcome this? So many thieves will be turning purple, and you will be able to fight them either because you just feel like it or (in my experience) to get retribution for them stealing your stuff.
This is just another version of risk vs. reward, which is the entire system AoC is built upon. If they want the reward of taking the materials someone dropped upon death, they risk getting attacked because they stole something from someone else. Checks out to me.
I'm afraid I don't understand what you're saying here.
They are not intended to be permanent. Lawless zones are only supposed to be in the Alpha, not the official release. See my above comments. That's really the point of this post! And yeah, I'm hoping these end up being some cool pirate islands, sorta like the ones in ArcheAge.
Though, now that you mention it
If looting corpse’s flags PvP and encourages more PvP to happen
It actually doesn’t sound too bad, if this creates more random fights to happen
I personally think the result of flagging if you loot a corpse you didn't kill is that it just won't happen.
This means less people being a little anoyed by it, but it also doesn't increase PvP, and doesn't increase player friction either.
Honestly, imo, for a game with the intent behind Ashes, flagging on looting a corpse is the worst option here.
Why do you need to be able to freely kill players that don't fight back?
Do you even class that as Player Versus Player, when it's actually Player Versus Nothing?
I would push it further and make them attractive for rare mob / resource farming, but also introduce environmental hazards like, magical anomalies, poison/corruption fog, aggressive mobs.
All could be tied with The Ancients lore, make lawless zones "no mans land" corrupted and destroyed by some ancient battles. Where excessive magic and corruption shattered the area beyond recognition, to the point laws of physics / magic(?) were broken, so you cannot even stay there for long. Yes, this is a clear STALKER inspiration :P
This is the fastest way to make the rest of the game irrelevant.
Then the lawless zones are pointless.
lawless zones are identical to how open oceans is said to function so yes they are intended to be permaments.
Also lawless zones will occur around destroy nodes aswell temporaryily so again still feature for release
adds a boundry beteen continents and resources since oceans will be lawless and then when nodes get destroyed that area will also be lawless but also allows for looting the destroyed node
I want to note I'm not interested in becoming corrupted. But I do want PvP to be always on.
It adds risk to the gameplay. You're always under threat of "someone could attack me at any moment." Just like in reality. That's exactly why we have (and should always have) corruption. This is what prevents you from being attacked wantonly. I love the idea of it and absolutely want to always be under threat of attack. That makes it feel like the real MMOs of yore, and corruption will prevent it from getting out of hand.
And to further prevent PKing from getting out of hand, we should keep some lawless zones (the real point of this post), so those people can go and get their bloodthirst out without maiming innocent civilians due a to a lack of PvP events (which I don't even think will be an issue).
According to the Wiki, this is not true. Lawless zones will leave with the addition of the open seas. Unless I'm misunderstanding something here (even though it's written it's leaving after alpha-2), they're not permanent.
I think people want more area to fight than on the back of ships.
Its like with investing, some people are more or less risk averse.
These people are a small minority and most will still play the game even if there are no lawless zones.
If they will still play the game and they're a minority, there's no benefit to AoC for creating lawless zones.
Lawless zones could be even a temporary state, that would be cool and bring some content.
Lawless zones will be a basic standard of the new-gen of the genre by the time AoC properly releases, although they'll all also probably just be islands.
I personally think it's a waste to add permanent lawless zones because there are just as many average PvP players as there are average PvP-averse players.
Giving the world a permanent 'you are not good enough to be here' area just discourages those people, in Fantasy MMOs. They go there, get beat up a few times, get salty, and leave. It's not even like the game benefits from having more of them to solve the problem.
But having zero lawless zones creates the same problem for those people in an even more toxic way IMO, so I prefer the current Albion/TL method. Ego protection is a high priority in MMORPGs.
The level of balance you are talking about here has literally never been achieved in an MMORPG.
Sure, it may be theoretically possible, but in reality it's just nor going to happen. One area will become full, the other will be dead.
You can already fight pretty much everywhere.
The only point is if that person you're trying to fight doesn't want to fight back, they can choose not to, and then it's on you whether or not you keep going.
You just don't want to have to make that decision.
If it is anything like Archeage PvP at sea, the fighting will take place on the ships, in the water, under water and in the air, all at the same time.
And also keep in mind, naval PvP is more ship vs ship, rather than player vs player - at least to start. If you are at the point where you are fighting on the deck of your ship, things probably kicked off 15 minutes ago.