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Gear Scaling does not feel good

24

Comments

  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    kadimir wrote: »
    Yeah that's the skinny, anyone can put in the work to get the gear.

    And people saying the scaling isn't that nuts, compare the gear difference between normal crafted gear in wow with mythic raid gear. Wasn't uncommon even in heroic gear to do nearly a 3rd of a bosses life alone in raid finder.

    Other half of the equation is that we do not know the **actual** effect of those numbers in damage calculations. For instance twice the armor does not mean twice the mitigation, mitigation rating is based on level and is on a curve. Getting a lvl 10 weapon had more than double the stats but did not double my damage.

    We do know the outcome, people at level 25 that were fight level 25 with legendary weapons could one shot most players, and the peeps they could not one shot, they killed them with a second attack.
  • pyrealpyreal Member, Warrior of Old, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    kadimir wrote: »
    kadimir wrote: »
    So riddle me this, if the gear really was 30% better, how many of you would go out and gather all the legendary mats to make one over just trying to level up?

    Have any of you actually gathered legendary copper or zinc?
    Even if that was only 15%...everyone who considers themselves a try hard would join you on that farm. That percentile gap can still mean a difference between standing or being a pile of ashes. Also no one is saying you should have to farm bazillion of mats to get legendary gear. I haven't tried crafting, but from I have gathered the current state of Ashes grind goes AGAINST the anti-grind philosophy they voiced back in 2017?

    I spent some silly amount of time in a coop pve game, where people would lose it, because the RNG wouldn't give them that "perfect item" with a "perfect stat" distribution and they would continue farming for hundreds of hours to get that. I would like to stress that is a COOP game with no pvp.

    Exactly, you haven't grinded out the thing you have an opinion on. Basically you would never have that gear and you want it to be not worth farming for people who do. Calm down and go pick some rocks. I have actually gathered legendary copper, legendary zinc, and legendary basalt - I have not gotten above a green grem skin or anything beyond blue lumber.

    I got legendary wood outside of Lionhold.
  • kadimirkadimir Member, Alpha Two
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    kadimir wrote: »
    Yeah that's the skinny, anyone can put in the work to get the gear.

    And people saying the scaling isn't that nuts, compare the gear difference between normal crafted gear in wow with mythic raid gear. Wasn't uncommon even in heroic gear to do nearly a 3rd of a bosses life alone in raid finder.

    Other half of the equation is that we do not know the **actual** effect of those numbers in damage calculations. For instance twice the armor does not mean twice the mitigation, mitigation rating is based on level and is on a curve. Getting a lvl 10 weapon had more than double the stats but did not double my damage.

    We do know the outcome, people at level 25 that were fight level 25 with legendary weapons could one shot most players, and the peeps they could not one shot, they killed them with a second attack.

    got any footage of that?
    PvP focused: TERA / Wildstar / Aion
    PvE focused: WoW / FFXIV / Lineage II
    Sandbox: Ultima Online / Darkfall / Mortal Online
    Big Influence: SNES Fighting games / Starcraft / Diablo II / Smite
  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    kadimir wrote: »
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    kadimir wrote: »
    Yeah that's the skinny, anyone can put in the work to get the gear.

    And people saying the scaling isn't that nuts, compare the gear difference between normal crafted gear in wow with mythic raid gear. Wasn't uncommon even in heroic gear to do nearly a 3rd of a bosses life alone in raid finder.

    Other half of the equation is that we do not know the **actual** effect of those numbers in damage calculations. For instance twice the armor does not mean twice the mitigation, mitigation rating is based on level and is on a curve. Getting a lvl 10 weapon had more than double the stats but did not double my damage.

    We do know the outcome, people at level 25 that were fight level 25 with legendary weapons could one shot most players, and the peeps they could not one shot, they killed them with a second attack.

    got any footage of that?

    I have watch dozens of hours of PvP footage. I am not rewatching them to find the spots I have seen. Sorry. Just go watch YouTube vids of PvP footage over the past week. It's only in the past week has reared its head.
  • kadimirkadimir Member, Alpha Two
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    kadimir wrote: »
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    kadimir wrote: »
    Yeah that's the skinny, anyone can put in the work to get the gear.

    And people saying the scaling isn't that nuts, compare the gear difference between normal crafted gear in wow with mythic raid gear. Wasn't uncommon even in heroic gear to do nearly a 3rd of a bosses life alone in raid finder.

    Other half of the equation is that we do not know the **actual** effect of those numbers in damage calculations. For instance twice the armor does not mean twice the mitigation, mitigation rating is based on level and is on a curve. Getting a lvl 10 weapon had more than double the stats but did not double my damage.

    We do know the outcome, people at level 25 that were fight level 25 with legendary weapons could one shot most players, and the peeps they could not one shot, they killed them with a second attack.

    got any footage of that?

    I have watch dozens of hours of PvP footage. I am not rewatching them to find the spots I have seen. Sorry. Just go watch YouTube vids of PvP footage over the past week. It's only in the past week has reared its head.

    I have, that's why I asked if you had footage.

    Even the obvious dupers with legendary gear weren't 1 shotting in clips I saw.
    PvP focused: TERA / Wildstar / Aion
    PvE focused: WoW / FFXIV / Lineage II
    Sandbox: Ultima Online / Darkfall / Mortal Online
    Big Influence: SNES Fighting games / Starcraft / Diablo II / Smite
  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Even Reyv has some of it in his PvP videos. Where I dont remember.
  • innairisinnairis Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I enjoy crafting and would like crafting to remain the main source of powerful gear, but not the only source.

    The ease of access crafters have to legendary items early in the game far exceeds the ability for a combat crafter to obtain equivalent gear. Legendary gear in the current iteration is extremely superior in stats to, even gear from open world raid bosses. A lot of players believe this is due to the crafter however it is due to legendary items having insane power and the crafter able to create legendary item with 'rare' materials. With the artisan tree coming in DEC 20th wipe, this will further empower crafters.

    Do you think legendary item power should be tuned down? made harder to obtain? or do combat players need an easier time to obtain these items?
  • ShivaFangShivaFang Member, Alpha Two
    edited December 8
    I'm torn between toning legendries down.. or making all legendries equivalent at endgame (to give more diversity in stats if you have a stat set you really like at low levels)

    The number of steps in the chain that require all mats to be legendary is a bit steep, but once you overcome that hurdle and have processing gear that can up-quality items it becomes easier and easier. This will be especially true next phase when we get the profession trees to up quality.

    Hopefully it goes through a balance revision for sure.
  • MilosAoCMilosAoC Member, Alpha Two
    Legendary gear is currently WAY too strong.
    Not only is legendary gear too strong, the scaling per rarity tier is also way too high.
    In addition to that, the scaling on damage you get from gear FAR outweights the scaling on health. Meaning youre gonna like 10x your damage, but only 2x your hp. This means that when you have 2 people in full legendary, the entire fight just revolves around who can 1 shot eachother first, which is obviously incredibly boring and anti skill based gameplay.


    I really hope intrepid will fix this before the 20th, otherwise the first guild that reaches legendary will just not have any fun anymore at all because every fight is an insta win, and the people who play against that guild will just quit.
  • TiberiusTheronTiberiusTheron Member, Alpha Two
    edited December 2
    Steven, we’ve already pointed out that gear and weapon scaling is severely broken and needs immediate attention. Prominent streamers have been highlighting these issues for some time. There’s no reason for any item to scale more than 10% per tier, with a total of 50% at the highest tier. The current system disrupts all gameplay loops and is easily exploitable.

    It’s currently impossible to defeat players wearing crafted gear unless you’re also equipped with crafted gear. On top of that, players are soloing world bosses and using mass-training mobs designed for full raid groups. These issues are all over YouTube now and need to be addressed immediately.

    Additionally, the scaling of gear and weapons renders an entire class, the "Tank," virtually pointless. Once you reach this level of gear, having a tank in your setup becomes unnecessary. In my opinion, crafted gear shouldn't exceed world-dropped gear by more than 10% in effectiveness. This imbalance makes the system feel fundamentally broken.

    I believe higher-tier items should be much harder to craft, and I've come to the conclusion that crafting shouldn't offer the best gear in the game. The whole system just feels fundamentally broken.

    So once again, I’m calling you out to fix this. According to the wiki, P1 is focused on stability and progression testing. This issue is breaking the game—please address it.
  • ShivaFangShivaFang Member, Alpha Two
    edited December 8
    Gear is supposed to be 50% of player power.
    It's currently 95% of player power.
  • ShivaFangShivaFang Member, Alpha Two
    edited December 8
    It's already there, this likely won't be fixed before the 20th.
    Endure it (or peace out) until phase 2 at this point.
  • TiberiusTheronTiberiusTheron Member, Alpha Two
    edited December 8
    ShivaFang wrote: »
    Gear is supposed to be 50% of player power.
    It's currently 95% of player power.

    Yea, it's current a huge issue in my opinion.
  • BlazzenBlazzen Member, Alpha Two
    https://youtu.be/7-Ct9AgFTaI?si=T_VHZZX858nNxKN3

    Gear scaling has to be addressed ASAP. Lvl 10 legendary weapons doing 4-5x the dmg of dropped weapons to the point people are 3 manning firebrand raid boss.
  • Hutchy1989Hutchy1989 Member, Alpha Two
    edited December 8
    thats more than just legendary weapons but yes gear scaling is a bit much
  • ShivaFangShivaFang Member, Alpha Two
    edited December 8
    I actually think the gear scaling is fine. Legendary should truly be legendary.
    However, I think the real problem is that its too easy to get high quality materials. It should be much more rare.
  • Hutchy1989Hutchy1989 Member, Alpha Two
    edited December 8
    ShivaFang wrote: »
    I actually think the gear scaling is fine. Legendary should truly be legendary.
    However, I think the real problem is that its too easy to get high quality materials. It should be much more rare.

    I personally don't like that all gear can be made as legendary, there should be legendary weapons to be made that takes a lot of effort and requires boss kills, not just grinding copper and wood until you RNG your way into legendary gear.
  • stanleycavellstanleycavell Member, Alpha Two
    edited December 8
    Lol, did you watch Constantine's video? The gear scaling is NOT fine lmao. There will be no skill expression with gear like this. There's no game with gear like this. Please check out the video: www.twitch.tv/videos/2315467059
  • IustinusShivaIustinusShiva Member, Alpha Two
    edited December 8
    Lol, did you watch Constantine's video? The gear scaling is NOT fine lmao. There will be no skill expression with gear like this. There's no game with gear like this. Please check out the video: www.twitch.tv/videos/2315467059

    Legendary materials should be a 1/100000 chance. (quality is a 10x rarity multipiter in nearly every otehr context) Currently it seems too high.
    It's supposed to be really, really, really rare to get such things.

    Even if everyone on the server funnels it together, I don't think you'd see a single legendary craft before most players are level 25, if it were as rare as it's 'supposed' to be.
  • ThevoicestHeVoIcEsThevoicestHeVoIcEs Member, Alpha Two
    edited December 8
    Broken storage, gear power scaling and easily exploitable bosses (for "easy" legendary drops etc) are on the top of my priority list for pre-phase 2 bug fixes. This stuff breaks economy and the little fun you can have in the current pvp. Gear power scaling turns pvp into a comedy show atm.
    My lungs taste the air of Time,
    Blown past falling sands…
  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited December 8
    This is 100% tuned wrong. From common to legendary you gear is 4.7 times more powerful. For PvP a jump of 50% or more is no longer a skill game. Almost 370% increase is dumb. People are getting 1 and 2 shots dead.
  • PhamPham Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited December 8
    Idk. I kind of like the idea of having the potential to have really super powerful characters in the game. Remember, getting full sets of this legendary gear isn't easy either. You might say they had to first conquer the "gathering/crafting raid boss" in order to get that powerful to begin with.

    It's easy to just see the fruits of all that labor in a video like this and forget what all it took, behind the scenes, to get there.

    All we see is 3 people killing a (relatively) low-level raid boss. We don't see all the hundreds of man-hours it likely took to get to the point where they could.
    "Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes." - Ephesians 6:11
  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited December 8
    My thread on the topic

    https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/488357#Comment_488357

    Some good comments here as well.

    This was the best post from the thread
    Veeshan wrote: »
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    uftam9ipjg8j.png

    Defence gets x2, dmg gets x4 this i think might be the biggest issue :P although mybe the calculators balance out, i feel weapon might need to be halfed
  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited December 8
    ShivaFang wrote: »
    Gear is supposed to be 50% of player power.
    It's currently 95% of player power.

    I rather PvP and PvE be more tuned to skill over gear. I would like to see it no higher then 30%.
  • PhamPham Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited December 8
    I think 50/50 would be good. Not sure how you would measure that though. Just anecdotal
    "Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes." - Ephesians 6:11
  • Zapatos80Zapatos80 Member, Alpha Two
    edited December 8
    As someone with almost all crafted legendary gear, I can confirm it is absolutely busted. Less damage scaling, more armor scaling, less ridiculous damage/TTK in PVP. Drastically reduce scaling to legendary. And make green/blue crafted gear worth crafting by limiting dropped gear to green at most.

    Granted a lot of this wasn't the focus for phase 1, but I really hope it gets fixed for Phase 2 wipe otherwise it's going to be real broken for a real long time.
  • VeeshanVeeshan Member, Alpha Two
    edited December 8
    Zapatos80 wrote: »
    As someone with almost all crafted legendary gear, I can confirm it is absolutely busted. Less damage scaling, more armor scaling, less ridiculous damage/TTK in PVP. Drastically reduce scaling to legendary. And make green/blue crafted gear worth crafting by limiting dropped gear to green at most.

    Granted a lot of this wasn't the focus for phase 1, but I really hope it gets fixed for Phase 2 wipe otherwise it's going to be real broken for a real long time.

    armor already seem to scale more than weapons
    Weapons gain 3 times the power rating between green and legendary which gets divided by 3 aswell when rating gets converted to physical power (Atleast for ranger) so a lego 900 power rating bow for example will prove 300 power (Its like 30 power per quality increase) So its only getting 33% increase in power rating

    Where armor rating is doubled between green and legendary so you are gaining more armor than combat power per piece so TTK should be increased however i guess that depends if there diminishing returns on dmg reduction with higher armor.
  • Zapatos80Zapatos80 Member, Alpha Two
    edited December 8
    Lvl 20 green/blues cloth = 40% magic mitigation
    Lvl 10 full legendary cloth = 60% magic mitigation

    My 4k shatter hitting for for 3,2k won't change much when it comes to dying in 3 globals.
  • VeeshanVeeshan Member, Alpha Two
    edited December 8
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    My thread on the topic

    https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/488357#Comment_488357

    Some good comments here as well.

    This was the best post from the thread
    Veeshan wrote: »
    9q5x3ttf255l.png

    uftam9ipjg8j.png

    Defence gets x2, dmg gets x4 this i think might be the biggest issue :P although mybe the calculators balance out, i feel weapon might need to be halfed

    Im gonna update this slightly with how combat rating actualy effects combat power, Pretty much that rating value gets divided by 3 to get your actualy combat power so it not as huge of a difference than just looking at the numbers there on the weapons (Im assuming this is done on a class by class basis so they can stright up nerf a class effect with a certain stat for balancing if needed)
    Where armor is straight up doubled it might actualy increase the TTK between full legendary players not reduce it but i guess that depend on if armor bonus has diminishing returns on it or not armor to dmg reduction given.
    People prioritise weapon over armor so you see the scewed effect of somone with lego weapon vsing peopel with basicly wearing paper since everyone using mob drops still when it comes to armor.
  • VeeshanVeeshan Member, Alpha Two
    edited December 8
    Blazzen wrote: »
    https://youtu.be/7-Ct9AgFTaI?si=T_VHZZX858nNxKN3

    Gear scaling has to be addressed ASAP. Lvl 10 legendary weapons doing 4-5x the dmg of dropped weapons to the point people are 3 manning firebrand raid boss.

    Also legendary weapon are equivelent to heroic lvl 20s when u go up a level brack u reduce the quality by 2 and thats what the piece is equivelant to atleast thats how it seems to work so far. So a Heroic lvl 20 is the same as a legendary lvl 10 and a Green lvl 20 is the same as a heroic lvl 10 piece.
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