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Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Toxic Griefing PVE Behaviour is encouraged ??
woooot
Member, Alpha Two
I want a good PVP MMO, where PVE is also a fun activity.
But right now at level 10-15, I try to enjoy the PVE of HH area. "Highway" something.
Here it is COMMON behaviour to see:
A - Toxic players pull a 3-star Pyromancer into other groups that are already fighting a pull.
It often results in the other group dying, or having to run for their lives. - And then the toxic players steal their corpse-loot.
They do it to either just steal corpse-loot, or to GRIEF your group, because their group want the spot.
B - Toxic groups place themselves in the middle of your group, and steal all the mobs you pull.
If another group can outdamage your group, they get the kill, and the xp and loot. I see this as direct griefing.
C - And in general you see a lot of Toxic behaviour. If you die there, someone always steal your corpse-loot.
Often right in front of you, if you dont release, but wait for a rez.
I totally understand, that this is a PVP game, and I have the option to either run away, and try to PVE somewhere else, or stand and fight for my spot - getting PVP flagged.
But there is 1 thing, that makes this entire scene more toxic than it has to be. The griefing happens for mainly 1 reason.
WHY DO WE DROP A CORPSE THAT CAN BE LOOTED?... Remove that feature of STEALING = GRIEFING, and you fix the biggest TOXIC and Griefing part of the game... - I am fine with flagging for PVP and going at each other.. - But tons of players GRIEF - and it feels like a grief when they steal from your dead body..
Also XP and reward for a kill needs to be fixed ASAP..
1 - Let the puller that fires the first shot (claiming the target) have agro the first 10-20 seconds.
In this period all other agro is negated. All other damage, still helps the kill.
2 - Let the winner of kill and loot be the one/group that has most agro TIME at the end. Not agro amount.
If it is agro time that wins, then small pulls are guaranteed for the player tagging their mob. And in larger pulls, sure other players can get agro after 10-20 seconds, but the puller has a big advantage to claim their target.
This will result in a change in the griefing and kill stealing..
A - Groups at HH and other spots, can more easy keep the mobs they pull.
B - Solo players who try to gried by pulling a hard 3* mob into another group, he will still have agro, and most likely die.
And while the group will still get agro, they have 20 sec. where the agro is not on them, but they can get ready to kill and get the reward.
C - Nice players who want to help a person with a bad pull, can do it without being kill stealers.
D - Groups that out damage other groups and kill steals - they have a 20 second disadvantage, where their agro dont count. They can only steal if they are a lot stronger than the other group.
But right now at level 10-15, I try to enjoy the PVE of HH area. "Highway" something.
Here it is COMMON behaviour to see:
A - Toxic players pull a 3-star Pyromancer into other groups that are already fighting a pull.
It often results in the other group dying, or having to run for their lives. - And then the toxic players steal their corpse-loot.
They do it to either just steal corpse-loot, or to GRIEF your group, because their group want the spot.
B - Toxic groups place themselves in the middle of your group, and steal all the mobs you pull.
If another group can outdamage your group, they get the kill, and the xp and loot. I see this as direct griefing.
C - And in general you see a lot of Toxic behaviour. If you die there, someone always steal your corpse-loot.
Often right in front of you, if you dont release, but wait for a rez.
I totally understand, that this is a PVP game, and I have the option to either run away, and try to PVE somewhere else, or stand and fight for my spot - getting PVP flagged.
But there is 1 thing, that makes this entire scene more toxic than it has to be. The griefing happens for mainly 1 reason.
WHY DO WE DROP A CORPSE THAT CAN BE LOOTED?... Remove that feature of STEALING = GRIEFING, and you fix the biggest TOXIC and Griefing part of the game... - I am fine with flagging for PVP and going at each other.. - But tons of players GRIEF - and it feels like a grief when they steal from your dead body..
Also XP and reward for a kill needs to be fixed ASAP..
1 - Let the puller that fires the first shot (claiming the target) have agro the first 10-20 seconds.
In this period all other agro is negated. All other damage, still helps the kill.
2 - Let the winner of kill and loot be the one/group that has most agro TIME at the end. Not agro amount.
If it is agro time that wins, then small pulls are guaranteed for the player tagging their mob. And in larger pulls, sure other players can get agro after 10-20 seconds, but the puller has a big advantage to claim their target.
This will result in a change in the griefing and kill stealing..
A - Groups at HH and other spots, can more easy keep the mobs they pull.
B - Solo players who try to gried by pulling a hard 3* mob into another group, he will still have agro, and most likely die.
And while the group will still get agro, they have 20 sec. where the agro is not on them, but they can get ready to kill and get the reward.
C - Nice players who want to help a person with a bad pull, can do it without being kill stealers.
D - Groups that out damage other groups and kill steals - they have a 20 second disadvantage, where their agro dont count. They can only steal if they are a lot stronger than the other group.
3
Comments
To scenario A, that is training. It has been a part of MMORPG's since the 90's. Any game that isn't WoW or attempting to shield its players like WoW does has this, and players of those games generally know how to prevent it, or how to turn it back on the other player.
For scenario B, this is just using the games mechanics. The point of the game is that which ever group does the most damage gets the rewards. If another group is doing more damage than you, they get the rewards. You are free to attack them if you like, but they are free to out DPS you and your group for as long as they wish to do so if you don't attack.
This stage is worse than Stage 1.
Elaborate.
Paired with the corruption system, it sucks hard and there are multiple threads about it all over the forum, some with names of ppl even boasting about it!
It is perfectly fine in both EQ games.
It was actively encouraged in Archeage.
It is fine in Rift.
It was fine in Age of Conan.
It was fine in BDO.
In fact, it is fine in most MMORPG's I've ever played.
It's just games with whiners like WoW (and currently Ashes) that developers say it isn't OK.
Learn the game mechanics, learn what is causing it, and then you can avoid it.
Or, you know, just whine.
I played Rift and Archeage and in none of these was mob training a thing that people would regularly do. In BDO people duel over grinding spots, so they wait for someone to finish the grind, rest and duel honorably to claim a spot, that is the opposite of training.
Training is really not a thing in many other MMORPGS merely because aggro works as expected. Someone pulling one mob either by distance or attack socially pulls others only to themselves unless he gets healed (healer aggro) or someone else damages the mobs or taunts. In AOC they are coded to attack the nearest thing along their path and also people can instantly log out.
It wasn't common because people knew how to deal with it, and so delt with it instead of whining.
The complaints on these forums, coupled with people's lack of understanding of what is going on, only serves to fuel those that are doing it.
In BDO it did indeed happen. It wasn't common, but it happened. The bulk of the times I saw it was when someone lost a camping spot that they knew they wouldn't be able to get back.
You say training isn't a thing in other MMO's because aggro works as expected - but it is the fact that it works as expected that makes it possible.
Right now, Ashes has one or two bugs in relation to either buffs or passives generating hate when they shouldn't (I would test it and come up with answers, but if Intrepid won't provide tools for such testing, fuck them). Even once those bugs have been fixed, training will still be a thing. What makes it less of a thing (down to the level seen in the above list of games) is players learning how to deal with it, and so dealing with it instead of complaining about it.
Edit to add; keep in mind, Steven was trained during a live stream years ago. His reaction wasn't to whine, or to say it shouldn't happen - he basically said well played to the person that did it.
There shouldn't be an assumption that this kind of thing won't be allowed, though there should be an assumption that the current aggro bugs will be fixed (though only if someone actually works out exactly where they are).
And what is it called when "one or two bugs" get used to gain an advantage?
Oh, thats exploiting...
There is also a difference between him being trained on once or twice and ppl doing this like its their work. (4h+ at the same spot)
Also, this is not a game, it is a test. You essentially can't exploit during a test. Yes, you are correct.
The lack of quality among the current Ashes playerbase is alarming.
The only time I have seen someone do this while testing, I put an end to it in about 3 minutes by making his train attack him. The fact that others can't work out how to do this is indeed alarming.
Kind of funny how you are claiming this but don't explain how you did it...
Please: Enlighten us how you do this without breaking a sweat.
If it was this easy, I doubt people would get away with training for hours on end at the same spot.
I already have explained it as much as I am ever going to.
Work out why aggro is being pulled, and stop it from happening.
I'm not going to give you any more specifics than that, I'm not your mother.
No it is not. It is not allowed as a form of grieving to knowingly train a player or group or guild in a raid. Now one on one, it might take a while for a response but I assure you that if you open-world train a guild raid on a progressive server, the players involved get dealt with. Now if you are playing current time on a server, training makes little difference because of instancing. On a Progressive server that first starts with an open world environment, it is not allowed.
In EQ you could do these thing but it basicly never happened due to reputation if people intentional trained players groups they would never get groups anymore on the entire server the players basicly banished people who griefed causing them to reroll under a new name since there no name changes or go play solo.
In Everquest you could very easily ninja loot anything off corpses since theres no roll system either but that too never happened aswell.
Reputation meant something due to being group based game and when no one wanted to group with your or guild you due to your reputation you had very little you could actually do.
Training is fine. Period.
Interrupting a guild on an open world raid encounter is not fine. Period.
It doesn't matter what method you use to interrupt that raid, it can be something that is perfectly within the scope of normal gameplay even. It is the act of interrupting that raid that is not allowed, and that is dealt with.
You can't really say "training isn't allowed in EQ", and then follow that up by saying " you can do it in a one on one situation" - you have just disproved your original point. You have just said that training is OK in some situations, even if it is not OK in others.
The part about people trying to steal your grind spot is part of the game though, and partly is because of the current high density of players
PvE death = XP penalty
PvP death = material drop
Don't agree at all. I have been MMOing since 1999. Training is a toxic behaviour that this game promotes, even rewards. Steven may have said well played but the vast majority don't see it that way and should not. They are not cry babies, this could be changed so easily by adjusting how leeshing happens. Also just by increasing the time flagged when you loot someone's body, that also marks the person who looted your corpse with a dot on the map. Give me and my team time to hunt them. 10-15 min should do and we stop allot of greifers.
Way to let people know you train mobs
for B,C,D,E,F and G (al current and future arguments) theres a button that will let you attack other players. try it.
1. if you flag up and get killed, you need to get good.
2. if you flag up and kill them, problem solved.
3. if you flag up and are out numbered, you messed up and see: (1)
4. if you dont flag up dont complain.
No, let them get purple for looting me.
Why do you think this sort of behaviour is acceptable?
If you are there with a group... a group of 7s can very easily kill 1 lvl 13. It's a pvp game... if you are actively choosing to not engage in it... don't complain when people do what they are supposed to to bully you out of their spot. And before you react... the spot is owned by those who can control the space. If you can't and lose your spot, it was never your spot to begin with..... this is a pvp game.
You are coming off as pretty ignorant as far as Steven's stance on the issue.
Steven has stated just yesterday that there is a problem with mob agro and it is being fixed so that only party members of the one who caught initial agro can build agro for that mob.
Training has always been an asshat move. AoC isn't catering to asshats.
Wrong.
Steven said just yesterday 'hammers are coming' for exploiters once the team gets back on Monday the 6th.
Enjoy your delvl/delete/ban.
Odd stance since Steven has repeatedly warned players not to exploit during test and has literally deleted characters of those that have been caught exploiting.
I cannot even award this points for a troll. 🤣
I was there with 3 others. There was a 13 on me and others came in. The joke is we were on the road, not even on a rss. Toxic behaviour right there.
Steven has already stated that there will be changes to the system to prevent the training of mobs on to other players.
Now, even with the changes, I believe that if another player runs a mob over you as you are AOEing another NPC and you hit the mob drawing the aggro, you may not be safe. I believe the upcoming changes will be that if mobs are untouched, they will leash back to where they came from once the attempted griefer is out of range rather than resetting on players nearby that did not engage or hit the mob. Just a guess of course but Steven is putting something in place in an attempt to decrease the death of players due to intentional mob training.