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Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Everything feels so unfriendly...
ELWOW
Member, Alpha Two
Hello,
I wanted to give feedback about the whole informations/UI/crafting and overall feel of the game.
This game feels very player unfriendly in terms of crafting or even knowing what you can craft and where.
If you to craft apprentice lumberjack axe:
- you need to train the apprentice level of lumberjacking (0 info about where/how etc. but let's say you figure that out or ask other people and find it north-east from Lionhold),
- you need to gather ridiculous amount of mats (really I need 10 logs and copper to make one axe?)
- you need to go to the city to craft it,
- now you realize you need to find a better woodshop than in regular city (in my opinion apprentice items should be available in the open and give people time to realize how systems work, journeyman systems should be limited to buildings inside the nodes, until then we are established in the world and +/- know what is going on),
- you manually zoom in through the cities to notice if they got woodshop. Better woodshop is only visible with different color on zoomed minimap, zero informations when you click the node on the world map or anything which is a bit weird,
- you run there and realize that to even craft one basic axe you need to spend 10+ silver (depends on the tax rate),
- after feeling that you finally achieved some great lumberjack axe you realize that it has 0 impact on your gathering, you don't craft any faster, you got like 1% chance to gather 1 more log from each tree and that's it
Seriously, how is it supposed to be fun or engaging? It is more exhausting than exciting in any way. What is the plan of all these systems to work besides some zerg guilds and funelling everything to a single officer in order to make anything in this game? I don't expect to craft any crazy items, but like crafting first green level 10 lumberjacking axe takes either a few gold to buy mats or ages to find better quality than common materials. Why these things are still not adressed after 2+ months?
To sum up, what I would want them to change/look at:
- logical amount of resources for these items (stronger/higher tiers can take more resources, but seriously, tier 1/2 tools should be a good way to introduce us to crafting/gathering/processing)
- info what I need in order to craft that item (like red fonted message "Require Woodshop Tier 2 Station")
- instead of zooming in to every node and look around for coloured icons just click on the map marker of the city and have info what is built there (it can be limited to cities that you only visited or have unlocked emberspring)
- some mail message or mini quest when you get level 10 novice as to where to learn a skill or who to look for. Like a letter to your mailbox saying "Congratulations young adventurer, you should visit XXX around briarmoor farms".
- instead of Lumberjacking speed rating info (which I have no idea what it is) just give me info what speed is it, just like attack speed rating converts to attack speed visually in character panel. You can't find that stuff for artisans so I have no idea what 100 speed rating for professions means.
I wanted to give feedback about the whole informations/UI/crafting and overall feel of the game.
This game feels very player unfriendly in terms of crafting or even knowing what you can craft and where.
If you to craft apprentice lumberjack axe:
- you need to train the apprentice level of lumberjacking (0 info about where/how etc. but let's say you figure that out or ask other people and find it north-east from Lionhold),
- you need to gather ridiculous amount of mats (really I need 10 logs and copper to make one axe?)
- you need to go to the city to craft it,
- now you realize you need to find a better woodshop than in regular city (in my opinion apprentice items should be available in the open and give people time to realize how systems work, journeyman systems should be limited to buildings inside the nodes, until then we are established in the world and +/- know what is going on),
- you manually zoom in through the cities to notice if they got woodshop. Better woodshop is only visible with different color on zoomed minimap, zero informations when you click the node on the world map or anything which is a bit weird,
- you run there and realize that to even craft one basic axe you need to spend 10+ silver (depends on the tax rate),
- after feeling that you finally achieved some great lumberjack axe you realize that it has 0 impact on your gathering, you don't craft any faster, you got like 1% chance to gather 1 more log from each tree and that's it
Seriously, how is it supposed to be fun or engaging? It is more exhausting than exciting in any way. What is the plan of all these systems to work besides some zerg guilds and funelling everything to a single officer in order to make anything in this game? I don't expect to craft any crazy items, but like crafting first green level 10 lumberjacking axe takes either a few gold to buy mats or ages to find better quality than common materials. Why these things are still not adressed after 2+ months?
To sum up, what I would want them to change/look at:
- logical amount of resources for these items (stronger/higher tiers can take more resources, but seriously, tier 1/2 tools should be a good way to introduce us to crafting/gathering/processing)
- info what I need in order to craft that item (like red fonted message "Require Woodshop Tier 2 Station")
- instead of zooming in to every node and look around for coloured icons just click on the map marker of the city and have info what is built there (it can be limited to cities that you only visited or have unlocked emberspring)
- some mail message or mini quest when you get level 10 novice as to where to learn a skill or who to look for. Like a letter to your mailbox saying "Congratulations young adventurer, you should visit XXX around briarmoor farms".
- instead of Lumberjacking speed rating info (which I have no idea what it is) just give me info what speed is it, just like attack speed rating converts to attack speed visually in character panel. You can't find that stuff for artisans so I have no idea what 100 speed rating for professions means.
15
Comments
That’s good learning for the rest of the game. If that seems unfriendly and not your cup of tea - that’s ok. Plenty of other games that are friendlier.
It has been fun and engaging meeting new people and learning new optimizations nearly every day.
I also don't have any interest in a game that holds my hand.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
Especially not before the devs are focused on balancing Crafting.
We need to work out the bugs so when the game does launch it is ready to go with few issues.
I love crafting. I have since I started gaming way back when I played Ultima Online. I have been in many games since then in Alpha and Beta and Launch. The OP here is sharing their experience with crafting and how difficult it is to find the when and the where. I too experienced this. I have seen many people asking in global chat what to do because they too were lost on the when and where.
I don't see a problem with the OP sharing their experiences here as this is the place to share said problems they are finding.
I have spent a few hours trying to find the crafting information and even when I have asked the global chat there are not that many people doing the crafting to warrant a swift response and having to repeat the questions over and over.
Crafting does need some love and I am sure the Devs will be taking all of our issues and suggestions to heart.
I've waited a very long time for this game. I love the grind as it were. I don't like having to ask people for help though. I prefer to seek it out myself and figure it out. With this phase of Alpha this is just not possible without having to ask.
I dont realy mind that you have to find some stuff out or ask other players...but thats where it stops.
crafting should be fun and helpfull for all lvls starting at level 1...or maybe 4 or so. The cash needed is silly.
example...
My bard lvl 5 got wolf and i was happy to go and train it. I asked where i could do it...i had to go to other places passed lvl 10+ mobs.
After making that i found out i needed 55 silver
55? i had like 6.
But there was afriendly high level near and he helped me with the cash....woooot.
So i started the training...took looooong...but hey...i was getting a wolf pet to ride.
eeeh nope...
All the time and cash was wasted.
I got a mount to pull a pvp car or so.
what the hell is this?
people explained that its random.
I havnt seen this since asherons call in 1999 and this should not be in there.
As I've said elsewhere, the amount of cash and materials needed to craft anything completely outweighs the value of the end product. Value as in money and usefulness. You don't seem to get any levelling from it and I ask myself why is this even included because either they don't plan on making it viable and its just filler, or they aren't ready to actually test it.
Some manner of test plan or schedule of what should be tested would be useful here.
I agree with almost everything you said. But I've been telling myself it's just a place holder to cope.
And it's not a matter of hand holding, some of it is straight up nonsense.
To be honest i laid my Alpha Two Participation on Ice for an unlimited Amount of Time by now -> because the absolute lack of Information added to my Burnout and i just gave up.
I can not harm my Nerve System in my brain like this. I am no longer 20 Years old. I can not "mine" Ores which are Apprentice because i would need to level up my Pickaxe as well.
I am not really surprised it is like this for Lumberjacking as well. So in other Words -> the few Times i saw People chop down Tree's which are higher than Novice, or mine even these "BLUE" Minerals which are like Journeyman in mining i think,
i saw some People with "SERIOUS" Connections to other Players probably -> and a lot of Background Knowledge over the Game and Artisan Professions.
The casual Gamer instead ? People like me ?
Who would need to learn everything ingame ? Step by Step ?
Jeah we are F°PEEP°ed.
I also didn't take into Account that the English Client would give me so much Problems despite me being rather decent in using English i think. But i understand Banana's about the Professions and Artisan Levels. I am as dumb as one of these Goblins we encounter everywhere - regarding Nodes.
Jeah. Waiting for Phase Three i think. Probably much, much longer. It doesn't make Sense when i don't understand Jack and run around like a headless Chicken.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Maybe i look after a Guild sometime soon
All I can say to that is "XD". Keep that mentality so you and maybe 1000 other players will play this game alone.
I don't need game to hold my hand so stop these stupid allusions, all I asked for in my feedback post is much better visual aspect of all these mechanics and a little bit more logic to the craft. Who needs 10 logs and 10 copper for a single weak axe? Why I need to zoom in over all cities (for now it is only like 4, but imagine later on looking for Grand Master stations over 80+ nodes).
Will it still be cool and "not holding hand"? No, it will be just waste of time to look around it if you can have somewhat basic UI to indicate what is built in these cities. It can be shown after you visit specific town or only in region that you are in, I don't mind. Current iteration is not user friendly so I give feedback.
Just to make that clear to your unfriendly mentality, all I wanted for them to change is:
- logical amount of resources
- info what I need in order to craft that item (like red fonted message "REQUIRE Woodshop Tier 2 Station")
- instead of zooming in to every node and look around for coloured icons just click on the map marker of the city and have info what is built there (it can be limited to cities that you only visited or have unlocked emberspring)
- some mail message or mini quest when you get level 10 novice as to where to learn a skill or who to look for. Like a letter to your mailbox saying "Congratulations young adventurer, you should visit XXX around briarmoor farms".
- instead of Lumberjacking speed rating info (which I have no idea what it is) just give me info what speed is it, just like attack speed rating converts to attack speed visually in character panel. You can't find that stuff for artisans so I have no idea what 100 speed rating for professions means.
This is phase of economic testing, when can I give feedback about these things if not now? No, alpha testing can be engaging and fun if all the systems that developers are creating are not punishing. 10 logs for a handle to an axe is not logical and not fun or logical. Currently I feel like every system in the game is punishing players instead of making it mix of reward/punish. It is not about testing, it is about their weird design that I give feedback about.
No one has said anything close to "It's impossible for Alpha testing to be fun... ever."
Ashes is already more fun than just a stability test.
We are still in the early part of Phase 2. It should be obvious that the devs focus is still on stability - especially since they have only been back from Holiday break for a couple of days.
I see in patch notes that some tweaks are being made to Gathering:
* More tier 1 stone gatherables have been added to caves throughout the Riverlands
* Added a random chance to obtain copper, zinc, or ruby when mining tier 1 stone gatherables.
We can expect to see significant changes to the Economy as Phase 2 continues.
You should expect Alpha testing to feel "punishing" rather than fun. Crafting currently has some functionality, but it's not balanced to be fun at the moment. Balanced for fun might not occur before Beta. Alphas are intnded to get features in and functional. Betas are for balance and final bug sqaushing..
But, definitely give feedback on the changes you want to see.
This post is insane... Making this little changes to economy is like a single drop in the ocean. These two tweaks can be made without any effort in no time. If this is the pace that they are planning to test things then we will wait for another 8 years at the very least. Where is it said that alpha must be punishing, like who invented that theory in this game? It is bad design if everything you are doing in the game besides optimized grind is punishing.
Exactly, betas are for balance so why are we getting sweated out right now if we can test these things in less punishing way? It won't change much if instead of 2 copper we would get 6 copper. As you said it is not yet economics stage so why they should bother about more copper from a node which will effect in less demand? Your theories are always placed to fit the exact case, and in the next sentence all of a sudden it change by 180 degree just to fit your ideas. At one side it needs to be punishing, on the other side it is just stability test into theory that it is too early to test these things. Wow...
I remember alpha tests of games like WoW, GW2 for example where you could easily travel through the POI's just to TEST things, not getting punished with slow movement/slow gathering/slow leveling and slow everything. So are we testing their current ideas of systems and we give feedback as I did or we just test something else and getting punished for doing something else, like crafting? Because with your post it kinda means if I wanna test something else than stability I should feel punishment. Why is that? Why it can't be nicer and then balanced/nerfed later on?
That is like, your opinion man...
My opinion is that hand holding and teaching the player basic things:
-insults players intelligence.
-leaves less room for discovery.
-Leaves less room for socialization.
-Creates an atmosphere where players are expected to just know everything which leads to a less social game.
A better system to me is something like EVE University. It is far more social and can lead to a more deep understanding of the game.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
Then there's the jackasses that grief the lower levels. Shows how bored they are, but also by the comments I suspect they'd be doing that anyway.
Who wants to PVP in here because you lose way too much to just take a shot and give it a try.
The actual devs will make those decisions.
Again, no one said that Alpha testing must be punishing. I said expecting Alpha testing to be punishing and unfriendly.
If you want to wait to test until it feels like fun, take a break until it's balanced to be more fun.
This is not Early Access play - this is true Alpha testing. Early in the Alpha phase.
And, sure, it might be another 8 years before release.
This paragraph is so absurd and entitled, I'm not going to bother to explain the way the real world works outside of your fantasies.
Yeah. They let people in at a later point in Alpha development.
Also, WoW has fast travel, while Ashes will not. I think GW2 has forms of fast travel as well.
Ashes is not intended to be WoW.
The devs are primarily working on stability and even that is kinda punishing right now - because it's early Alpha. If you want to wait until the devs add more quality of life features and balance those for fun - go ahead and wait. Steven will tell that the reason Alpha access is so expensive is to weed out the people who want to fun playing, so that most of the people will be those who understand that Alpha testing tends to be arduous, rather than fun playing.
L2 players say they love a grind, so this is probably intended.
Lots of jackasses - which is to be expected for a PvP-centric... I mean "PvX"... game. Especially before they balance Corruption.
Lots of exploiting, too, at the moment.
There's a time and place for everything; and there isn't.
Obviously, discovery and socialization are key aspects of an MMO but that doesn't mean that every, especially fundamental aspects regarding control or simply playing the game, are meant to be discovered. Discovering a POI? Fun! Discovering a beautiful vista? Nice! Discovering a tactic to overcome certain enemies? Exciting! But discovering how to move the camera or to attack a mob isn't something that should be discovered. It shouldn't also be made intentionally unintuitive for its own sake. In the same fashion, after starting the game the discovery and wonder shouldn't be based on figuring out the controls or most basic aspects - e.g. "How do I craft an axe?" - but what the game actually has to offer. It certainly doesn't insult my intelligence if a game communicates its basic gameplay in a clear and understandable way by means of storytelling, level design and its HUD.
Thus, I really dislike the term "hand-holding" in this context because it isn't. It isn't hand-holding to use "M" as an auto-key for map, because it's just a standard in bascially every game. Holding right-click to rotate the camera isn't also hand-holding; it's a standard. Similarly, simply giving new players a hindsight for how to access the most gameplay elements of the game isn't hand-holding - it's merely enabling players to actually play the game without expecting the other players to act as a tutorial or in-game guide, because the devs made their basic gameplay system so intransparent. Personally, I don't see how it makes Ashes a better game if new players flood the chat with "Where can I craft an axe?", "How to I attack a mob?", "Where can I get my first weapon?", "How do I jump?", etc. This isn't the time and place for socialization, but this is the moment players log off and deinstall the game. Also on the other side of the stick, I personally wouldn't be in a mood to explain each and every new player what a node is and how it works, because I simply expect to game to explain itself and don't expect me to do it.
+1000
It is really funny that these people make excuse like "it is social aspect of the mmo to ask" meanwhile this is the same hand holding as they describe but instead of from dev it is hand holding by other player. This is just lazy design with expecting players to solve the lack of tutorial or some introduction to the game. It is not cool and as you said earlier peopple gonna just quit if they find all these things confusing. I remember some bigger streamer sodapoppin logged in to the game, checked first quest or two, they were so confusing that he just left the game and never came back. It is not a good design, it can be done that way in much later stages, the further you are in the more complicated it can get, but it shouldn't be instantly annoying and hard to find. We got like 5 stages of crafting/processing/gathering why not making first one which is for everyone (novice level) just beginner friendly? We won't lose anything if people will get some time to understand and get into these professions. If we want professions to be big factor in this game they should have much love in terms of introduction and polish even early on. If it will be hard people will just level up without caring about professions and it will make a huge black hole in the market because we won't have resources and processed stuff from these people. Also it is not that hard to optimize, they are just lazy to skip that for so long. I don't accept excuse that it is not the phase for that if they keep fixing mount animations or skill animations or visual fidelity 5-6 times already and didn't touch any important systems yet.
The game has such basic and straightforward MMORPG controls that it’s hard to understand what people are struggling with.
Do I really need another game to tell me that WASD is for movement and Space is for jumping?
If you don’t know how to jump and your first instinct is to ask in chat rather than check the key binds to see what key it’s bound to, then you’re probably going to face bigger challenges than just the controls.
These are challenges that even the most “hand-holding” tutorial likely couldn’t solve.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
It also seems logical that it’s just enough resources to get you out into rhe world. 10 oak wood is 3 oak trees. 10 copper is 2-4 nodes. Weapon mold is 1 basalt. Now it stands to reason that oak wood drops from oak trees, and that since both copper and basalt are minerals they will probably be close to mountains. Pretty logical - and it’s what’s in the game.
For skills - there’s a level and tier (1-10 novice), hey - that’s a novice smithy half a mile west of the starter zone, stands to reason I can probably do something with my novice skill and novice mats there.
This doesn’t require asking, just thinking. Though you can certainly ask. It doesn’t mean it’s broken or an issue. Unfriendly is super subjective, so you feel what you feel in the face of relatively minor challenges.
I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say that Ashes had unusual controls, or anything like that. I used this as a comparison why "hand-holding" isn't a bad thing per se, because Ashes already holds your hand because it follows certain well-established standards. In a similar fashion, telling new players how to access basic gameplay elements that are new in this game instead of expecting them to ask others players in this chat or trying to figure it out themselves without any guidance, clues or help from the game itself is such a standard as well.
Ashes doesn't need to explain that WASD is for movement or how to rotate the camera, because (a) so many games already established this piece of information previously and/or (b) players simply just know it already. But elements such as caravans, nodes or just how crafting works in this game isn't knowledge can already have when you first get into the game. So I don't see how Ashes becomes a worse experience by guiding players into accessing these gameplay elements, which are - as I said - basic stuff. I'd rather have the game do the "hand-holding part" - I really dislike this term, because it's simply about transparency and a game being able to communicate its systems - instead of expecting the players to frequently answer dozens of questions in the chat, which could be solved by having a voluntary (!) tutorial chapter, or simply a quest chain in the starting area that one after another lets you interact with these systems.
>problem with the game
>"games not for you"
>no-one playing the game
> Single Player MMORPG
Quit white knighting the game, let people give feedback.
The problem I have with that is when players start to complain about things not being explained, it too often leads to hand-holding. As much as you may not like the term, it happens—things like the yellow markers in modern games.
If they did something cool, like including in-game books that explain different systems which you could read as needed, that would be one thing.
What happens instead is that you get annoying quests, like the current mount quest, that make you complete a bunch of tedious steps every time you roll a new toon. Then these unnecessary quests become the standard and end up being part of every new system. I use the mount quest as an example because it already shows us they’re willing to waste our time with needless required quests.
"Why would I come to this world through a portal to reclaim it and not bring basic tools and a mount?"
Yes, this is the slippery slope fallacy—I’ll call myself out on that.
In my defense, though, I’ve watched many MMORPGs evolve over the years, and I’ve seen a lot of them get worse because they try to create a perfectly smooth new-player experience.
I want the information to exist, but I’d prefer it not be part of a required tutorial or a quest.
Just my opinion. We’ll probably end up with quests force-fed to us anyway.
I do think we both want Ashes to be better in our own ways.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
Nice try, but I've provided plenty of critical feedback about Ashes. This is mostly about challenging feedback about unfriendliness as an issue that needs to be fixed versus expectations on players. Notice, no one is stopping the feedback - but part of discussing is disagreement - hence the whole 'discussion board' thing.