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Alpha Two testing is currently taking place five days each week. More information about Phase II and Phase III testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Meaningful trade and professions (thoughts on disparity between combat and trade systems)
ekadzati
Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
TL;DR: I'd like to see a take on trade/profession systems in an MMO where progression and expertise are as lauded and rewarded (i.e., parity) with the quality of rewards given to combat and raiding proficiency.
Why are tooling and support systems for player to player transaction (excepting auction/trade) still effectively non-existent; particularly given the history of issues and resolution cost to players and game support alike?
Why can't I get the same kinds of rewards for being someone who reaches the pinnacle of my trade and profession as when I am at the pinnacle of my class or skill set? Where are the "end game" versions and why aren't they of similar "shiny"? [1]
Why is it that people who go (often extremely) out of their way to help OTHERS have fun in these games are less noted or rewarded than who is on the latest leader board? I have yet to see a game offer rewards to guild leaders and officers who maintain strong clans/guilds/alliances in these games. I'd like to see a game offering that both recognizes and rewards the people (and work) that goes into creating, nourishing, and growing a clan, guild, house, node, etc.
Seriously - how the heck can anyone expect people to want to value different things in these games when the mechanics never do?
I guess what I'm saying is that I'd like to see trade and profession systems that offer tracks that do not require combat in the same way that getting "end game" gear doesn't require trade and profession.
I mean, after all, it's not really an apples to apples comparison given the focus on 'nodes' and 'building persistence and significance' therein, shouldn't this be changing for a game/world touting nodal progression along multiple paths?
If this game can offer trade and profession systems, support economic contracting and related reliability and reputation data [2], it would make me very happy indeed, and I suspect I'm not alone.
From where I sit, listing trades and professions and methods I'd enjoy would seem more fruitful if I felt any of the above was likely to change with this game (or any other within the MMO genre, frankly).
Also: Spellcrafting please. Happy to submit extensive PBI/stories to explicate if anyone 'upstairs' is interested.
[1] - Rhetorical question; combat has always been treated as "more important", even as everyone also readily admits that what keeps folks paying and playing when combat no longer delights are the social relations forged over time.
[2] - Eve Online's market for transport is likely one of the best examples I know, right down to being able to view the statistics of a given player/account over time for statistics of relevance to a potential shopper.
Why are tooling and support systems for player to player transaction (excepting auction/trade) still effectively non-existent; particularly given the history of issues and resolution cost to players and game support alike?
Why can't I get the same kinds of rewards for being someone who reaches the pinnacle of my trade and profession as when I am at the pinnacle of my class or skill set? Where are the "end game" versions and why aren't they of similar "shiny"? [1]
Why is it that people who go (often extremely) out of their way to help OTHERS have fun in these games are less noted or rewarded than who is on the latest leader board? I have yet to see a game offer rewards to guild leaders and officers who maintain strong clans/guilds/alliances in these games. I'd like to see a game offering that both recognizes and rewards the people (and work) that goes into creating, nourishing, and growing a clan, guild, house, node, etc.
Seriously - how the heck can anyone expect people to want to value different things in these games when the mechanics never do?
I guess what I'm saying is that I'd like to see trade and profession systems that offer tracks that do not require combat in the same way that getting "end game" gear doesn't require trade and profession.
I mean, after all, it's not really an apples to apples comparison given the focus on 'nodes' and 'building persistence and significance' therein, shouldn't this be changing for a game/world touting nodal progression along multiple paths?
If this game can offer trade and profession systems, support economic contracting and related reliability and reputation data [2], it would make me very happy indeed, and I suspect I'm not alone.
From where I sit, listing trades and professions and methods I'd enjoy would seem more fruitful if I felt any of the above was likely to change with this game (or any other within the MMO genre, frankly).
Also: Spellcrafting please. Happy to submit extensive PBI/stories to explicate if anyone 'upstairs' is interested.
[1] - Rhetorical question; combat has always been treated as "more important", even as everyone also readily admits that what keeps folks paying and playing when combat no longer delights are the social relations forged over time.
[2] - Eve Online's market for transport is likely one of the best examples I know, right down to being able to view the statistics of a given player/account over time for statistics of relevance to a potential shopper.
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Comments
Formerly T-Elf
There will be an in-built system for contracted crafting.
Recipes can be obtained through many means. The wiki lists everything from raiding, to social organization quests, to religious advancement, to becoming mayor, and even just for building on a freehold.
Though I can’t find the quote at this moment, only yesterday I read a quote by Stephen that says you can absolutely be an artisan only, and still have immense influence and success in Ashes. I don’t think there’s going to be anything to worry about insofar as crafting being recognized and rewarded.
This got me thinking. I love the idea, and what could go wrong? The usual, bane of crafting, the person with 5 alts or 100 bots, teaming up with the person who just loves their fellow players and would not think of making a profit from selling things in a game, but loves crafting too. These pieces of filthy excrement will compete to drive prices down to a couple copper profit for hard working capitalists.
Brainstorming solutions, one could be sellers guilds. Mechanic: in order to accept work or list on AH in an area, must join the guild. Guild collects dues, elects officers, and most importantly sets minimum prices for work/items.
Then when the filthy under cutters establish their own city you have a new problem. Maybe some central 'princes of commerce' organization that oversees all commerce, and that could levy taxes/tarrifs against cities that are practicing bad-faith business practices (selling in the red). Taxes could be bleed-over into other game systems (caravan runs giving less profit, scouting/knowledge radius reduced, etc).
wow that got complex fast...
The problem with pulling this is off is that "reaching the pinnacle" of crafting is just sinking enough gold and time in it to level it up sufficiently. It takes very little "skill" per se, is almost impossible to fail, and can be achieved by anyone willing to put in the time and gold. Pinnacle of class in terms of combat requires coordination between players (raids) has many paths to achieve (skill, time investment, etc). In general, the way crafting is designed is simply too trivial and non-skill based to justify making crafted gear on equal terms with raid acquired gear which requires coordination, skill, time investment etc.
If they make a skill-based crafting system, I think this would be great. Then the question becomes how do you make a skill-based crafting system that feels comparable in achievement as raiding? Well I'd say the variable resource stats, the need for caravan transports, skill-based crafting mini-games and specific environmental factors (e.g. making stronger +frost gear in the winter, and close to some mountain peak) that would hit all the checkmarks. It adds some RNG (variable resource stats), it adds the coordination of many players, you need the master gatherers, the caravan merchants, and crafters and organizing them all (yes, it's less involved than raiding, so room to improve here I guess), and there is temporal restraints (requiring certain times and places to make the best possible item is kind of like having raid lock outs, limited world boss spawns etc).
Edit: these are ideas taken from the crafting thread https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/42624/what-system-would-you-like-to-see-in-crafting
In summary, if making a piece of gear on par with raid quality drops requires a similar amount of RNG, effort and occurs with a similar frequency as the raid quality gear, perfect. Otherwise one will always be better than the other.
Because it's very hard to quantify those things. What does it mean to do them well? What is the criterion for being rewarded? I'd argue that the reward for managing a good guild is that you have a good guild to accomplish your goals lol. Sounds round-about but... you need to define "good" and presumably it means capable of getting something done well. So getting that thing done well is the reward.
My big problem is, if combat rewards players with gear for combat, shouldn't sucha crafting/trade system reward players with gear for crafting/trade?
If a crafting system rewards players with combat gear, all that will do is cause every combat oriented player to become a crafter, meaning actual crafters will have hardly any customers.
On the other hand, if a crafting system rewards players with gear for crafting, that crafting system needs to be impossible without that gear. Why bother going to any sort of effort for gear that doesn't matter?
So basically, in order to have a game with a crafting system that is on par with it's combat system, it needs to have a full progression within itself. Rather than being a simple case of getting your crafting profession to the level cap and then basically being done, it needs to function like a combat system in that you get to the level cap, and then are able to actually start playing.
I would be against a guild house, or collection of guilds, being able to control who crafts and sells what/where and for how much through in game mechanics.
If you want to undercut their supply, go for it.
If you want to do a KOS order for their suppliers, go for it.
If you want to 'threaten' or 'rough-em up' go for it.
I would even be down with guild perks that allow you priority listings (like google search results) in the Auction House. Or guild perks that allow you to identify merchant suppliers (gatherers) in the node.
But having IS implement guild controlled buyer/seller's lists in Ashes, no way.
Crafting/gathering classes are not good at PvP, Pve tank/heal/dps/support.
Crafters and gatherers are rich and loved by their guilds.
Also I have seen BDO and I quit because it felt like a second job.
Since we've been told that Master Gatherers will be required to spoil the best loot from World Boss corpses, it seems likely that Crafters will need to be wearing gear that will help them survive World Boss combat - at least armor, if not weapons. We will have to see if tools are required for crafting similar to weapons being required for combat.
It seems likely that Crafters will use the same stats on armor that Adventurers would - especially when it comes to INT or STR or STA or AGI. Crafting might also benefit from stats like HASTE or MASTERY or CRIT or POTENCY or DOUBLECAST.
Perhaps, although there are other ways of having progression in a crafting system. In Runescape there are various guilds that are linked to skills, such as crafting, cooking and farming. These require players to reach a certain level in the the relevant skill in order to enter, and contain high level ingredients and further means of progression that aren't open to others:
https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Farming_Guild
So progression in crafting doesn't necessarily need to be tied directly to gear. You can of course have similar things for combat skills. Again, going back to Runescape, players can only access the Legends Guild after completing a certain high level quest. Inside the guild is a merchant that sells keys to access high level dungeons. Honestly it's a really nice way of progressing that I wish more games would adopt.
I'd like to see endgame for crafters with multiple paths to the same goal (best crafted items, or biggest possible bonus to over-enchanting). So if you are a crafter from regionA, you have worked on your dragon-spider silk crafting among other things to max, and you can do the best stuff in the game... but if you move to regionB where dragon-spider silk is scarce you might have to learn how to work with wolfsnot silk instead.
Ultimately I think game content needs risk to make it fun. If crafting is like many games, where X+Y=Z with no chance of failure, then it becomes a boring grind. If there is some RNG in the loop, where you have a chance of failure all of a sudden you have push your luck, calculating probabilities, and a degree of skill enters the system. Do I spend 50% resources for a 75% chance, or go to 100% for a 90% chance, or YOLO with 25% for a 50% chance.
Oh hey, end game content for crafters!
Seems to be a huge push to find end game content in a game where the devs are trying to avoid end game content. Weird.
and EA doesn't have loot boxes its surprise mechanics
Ooh, like Kinder Eggs? I love Kinder Eggs!!!!
They are tasty
If there is content that opens up at the level cap (such as a quest to receive an augment for a max level spell), then Ashes has end game content.
If there is content that can not be reasonably expected to be defeated by characters until they have reached the level cap, then Ashes has end game content.
The statement of Ashes not having end game content was in reference to Ashes not having a single path towards a single end at the end game like many other MMO's have, it was not about Ashes having or not having end game content as a whole.
Formerly T-Elf
It may have been, though in 20 years, I've only ever come across one person that didn't get it - and that was purely due to stubbornness rather than confusion.
The designs for EQNext, Revival, Chronicles of Elyria and Ashes of Creation put an end to the endgame.
And it’s not just I who says that.
The Ashes devs continue to say the same thing I do:
People could say high level content.
And that would be the same content that max level Adventurers and max level Crafters are pursuing.
It’s not endgame content though because endgame content refers to the repeatable static content, like dailies, dungeons and raids, that’s basically just busy work while the devs work on creating new content.
mark - 1:16:18
“Endgame isn’t something we really subscribe to from a concept standpoint. There’s a lot of options and avenues and progression that players can have in different areas of the game.”
— Steven
“And with Nodes, everything is going to be changing all the time.”
— Jeffrey
So any stubbornness regarding terms is not about me. I am just regurgitating what the Ashes devs have said.
As rock solid proof of this statement (that there will be end game content in Ashes), I direct you to the start of the answer that you quoted the end of above...
Same video, 1:15:25,
(in answer to a question on how much time would need to be invested to keep a character up to date) It's like you purposely omit things. It was right there in front of you, only a minute or so behind where you pulled a quote from, and yet you failed to hear it.
So, once again, Ashes will have end game content. The CONCEPT of it will be different to other MMO's out there, but it WILL have end game content.
The stubbornness, as well as the belief that Ashes won't have ANY end game content is totally on you. If you want to continue to believe it, go for it. I will follow up any post you make on it with actual truth though, because I don't want your misinformation turning people off of this game.
Steven answered the gist of the question - how many hours will we need to play after reaching max level in order to keep our characters up-to-date? - by using the term used in the question. And then, after answering the question as asked, made a point to state that the dev team does not subscribe to the concept of endgame for Ashes of Creation because reaching max level does not mean there is an end to experiencing new content - that is the primary purpose of Nodes and their relation generating new content as they progress and develop. Which is why Jeff mentions that at the end of that topic: "With the Node system itself, we will never get to that point [endgame]."
There is a difference between max level content and endgame content. In previous MMORPGs, those have hit at the same time, so people are used to using the terms interchangeably. But, in the designs for EQNext, Revival, Chronicles of Elyria and Ashes of Creation, those terms do not mean the same thing and are not interchangeable because those designs do not include an endgame. The do all have new content that players can engage after a character reaches max Adventurer level.
Fact is, Ashes will have end game content (which is defined as content one can not be reasonably expected to START before the level cap). The comments that you are plucking out and contorting to fit your ideals are comments relating to the notion that Ashes end game content (content that one can not be reasonably expected to start before the level cap) will be somewhat different in concept to other games.
Dang! I thought I'd posted this yesterday, but found it "unposted" this morning.
Formerly T-Elf
Maybe I misunderstood, but if a crafter can be everything from blacksmith to bowyer, it wouldn’t be a very interconnect system since three characters can cover every branch of crafting.
I’m hoping more info is forthcoming to clarify.
No, you didn't misunderstand, you can in theory cover everything with just 3 characters. That said, depending on how long it takes to reach artisan level it may not be viable to have 3 characters at Artisan level. One other way they could solve the issue (if you can call it an issue) would be to have crafting skills decay. For example, if you don't create an artisan level item at least once a week you lose your artisan status in that skill. This would reward players who are truly dedicated to the craft and give players more of an incentive to specialise in certain things, thus driving the economy forward.