1. The first thing that can tune the difficulty Is mechanics. Having an instant kill mechanic, or something that all or certain members of a party must do requires coordination. At some point, stat values will mean nothing, as players know when they can just tank and spank a boss, or burn them down before messier parts of the fight can come into play.
2. Boss stuns always ramp up difficulty, though it's annoying if this is used too often.
3. Difficulty should be equal to reward. If it's a Boss that can drop a gorgeous mount that you know will be sought after, ramp up that difficulty up. Make it special when we see that mount riding down the street, and special for that player whenever they summon it.
4. Events are a way to get the community at large into hopefully a fun memorable thing, so the difficulty shouldn't be too high, or there should be a range of difficulties so the majority of the game population can participate in some way. Or have multiple roles for various power levels. If a major event hits a metropolis, maybe not everyone can fight the main boss, or even his lieutenants, but most people can kill the lower level creatures in a horde, while the stronger players fight higher up the food chain.
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ilisfetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
This one's a bit difficult for me to chime in on, as I haven't much experience raiding in the traditional sense. ESO is the only game I've raided in, and there the raids are either 4-man (arenas) or 12-man (trials). I've done plenty of arenas and like the difficulty progression there, but only a couple of the now dozen trials.
My impression on what raids should be is either a dungeon/event requiring the same amount of players as normal but at a higher difficulty, or a dungeon/event requiring more players than usual but of normal difficulty.
The impression I get from people reminiscing about raids is they're 40 man boss encounters that require frame perfect, pixel perfect inputs and positioning from all 40 players or all 40 players will die. That sounds absurdly hard, and I don't like hard.
My own definition of hard is "hard" is an intolerance of player mistakes. The more a game allows the player to fail, the "easier" it is. Challenging is requiring more from the player, either better thinking, pattern recognition, information gathering, etc. Dark Souls would not be a hard game, but it is challenging.
The trials I played in ESO were Aetherian Archive and Hel Ra Citadel, and both were rather enjoyable. For one, AA's first boss is soloable. There is no time limit or mechanics requiring other players, so as long as you survive the auto attacks and play the mechanic, it can be beaten alone. Both AA and HRC split the party up multiple times; AA splits the 12-man into 3 4-man groups multiple times throughout, each with their own objective and independent of the other sub-groups; HRC splits the 12-man into 2 6-man groups for the middle third of the trial.
In both instances, it's fun to reduce the group size and actually feel how much of a contribution you are making to the fight. When all 12 are wailing on a boss, it's impossible to tell how much you're contributing, if anything, and there's nothing you can do if the others are lacking. Split into sub-groups, it's more like running multiple normal dungeons in parallel.
HRC's split is also fun for one of the sub groups, but not so much for the other. The top group has to assault the ramparts, fighting mobs and elite mobs as they raise gates and destroy siege engines so the lower group can pass further into the citadel. The lower group has to hold out at each gate until the top group succeeds, with both routes culminating in separate boss fights. This is where the lower route gets less fun as they hit their boss sooner, bombarded by siege. This also means the boss is beefier since the routes are supposed to finish at about the same time. Basically bottom has a too long boss fight that even if they finish quickly, still have to wait for top group to finish. Top group has a shorter boss and doesn't have to wait on bottom group for anything as they advance across the walls.
AA's split groups each have a group of mobs to fight, each sub-group getting a different batch to slay. This is fun for the reason that you tangibly contribute more to the fight this time rather than when it's a 12 stack. The unfun part of AA's split group mechanic is the path forward doesn't open until all 3 groups are done. Now, when one group finishes they can parkour rocks to assist the other, but it's still dull waiting for potentially minutes as the sub-group full of bad players barely scrapes by their encounter.
I think what I enjoy the most in trials is fighting many many normal or elite enemies rather than a single massive one. Progress in the raid is more tangible when actually killing things rather than dinking a giant health bar. For final bosses, a singular big bad is fitting, but multiple elite enemies would be better, as their individual health bars won't be so bloated and they collectively pose the same threat as a big bad. I'd also find it more believable than one human having 300x the HP of everything else "just 'cause raid boss."
So yeah, I'd say mechanics that don't require you to wait on other group members but still interact with them (such as disarming hazards for each other) are fun and throwing more mobs at the party is more fun and more believable than a damage sponge.
A raid idea that'd fulfill these criteria is ousting a squatting army from a castle. You'll need 40 people to fight that many soldiers, you can divide into sub-groups to clear the ramparts and courtyard, and the final fight can be with the general and elite guards, each the strength of a regular dungeon boss. While you may have to wait in the throne room for the other sub-group to return, you won't be dependent on them for advancing but they can make your life easier by unmanning oil pots and archer nests. In turn you can cut off reinforcements, smoke out barracks, and use stationary siege to help the other group clear their route.
There will be different ideals for different people, so whatever raid or event is happening, it should be as adaptable as a meal out with friends. Easier said than can be written into code, right? Is it even possible to have meaningful player-by-player variability within a cooperating group of players within the same instance?
For me to want to participate in a raid or event (without being begged and pleaded to join), I really have to be convinced I will have a meaningful, challenging enough and fun experience, free of griefing and exploits, that isn't going to be the same procedural thing over and over, but also isn't so onerous that it will exhaust or crush my spirit for play.
Raids should bring variety and not always follow a straight line, curves are also interesting. Nobody wants to go the same way 100 times to get equipment at the end. Raids at different times, different routes to the destination are much more interesting.
World events, should relate to the development of the world. Gladly also with "super bosses" which can defeat only several Nodes / Krieger armies. So that the world remains interesting and varied.
Events should be nice for PvP, PvE and craftsmen, no one should be forced to do PvP if he does not want to, but he should still have a nice event, you could also add Node goals, where all 3 sectors will do the tasks to get resources or unique skins for the node at the end. This promotes the cohesion of a node and creates common goals.
Make the raids meaningful. For example, an orc invasion coming down from the mountains. If it is successfully beaten back in your node this week, then the next week it may go to a neighboring node instead. If your node doesn't defeat the invasion this week, there is a knock-on effect to nearby areas as far as NPC proliferation, resources and moral to nearby settlements. Maybe the resources nearby won't be as plentiful because the orcs are taking some of them; maybe some quests aren't available right now because the quest-givers are hiding in their homes. Since the node that is invaded next may change after successfully beating it back, it wouldn't be available every week but would come back eventually. What if the raid requires more people the second week if it wasn't repelled the first week?
The raid could successfully repel them even if all the bosses weren't defeated. If enough of the canon fodder is killed, the orcs will retreat when players are done. If the players didn't manage to kill many of the bosses, then they just have less loot to show on this week's attempt.
The raid should change based on what happened in previous encounters. Did you wipe out an insect swarm that the orcs use to proceed their invasion? Maybe this invasion it will be a rat swarm with slightly different mechanics to start. Did last week's invasion Boss-Fight#2 have two adds that had to be CC'd during the fight? Maybe this week's Boss-Fight#2 will have one add that must be CC'd and one add that must be interrupted constantly. The explanation for the change is that each time the invasion is repopulated, the invaders may change a bit. The main mechanics for each fight stay the same, but there are slight tweaks that can vary encounter to encounter.
Another example of the raid changing slightly is that the next invasion may be from a different orc tribe. The last time you fought them were they the Fire Orc tribe? There were lots of AE's to dodge and emphasis to get the casters down as fast as possible before the effects overwhelm the healers. Maybe the next invasion is the Summoning Orc tribe. This leads to an emphasis on interrupts before adds are called during Boss fights. Then there could be a Healing Orc tribe that requires interrupts on some of the adds while the DPS work through the healers one by one to override their healing ability with DPS numbers. Some raids could go the interrupt route depending on classes available and other raids may use CC instead if they have the classes for that.
Or maybe the seasons determine the types of casters present in the invasions. During summer there is a greater proliferation of fire casters, winter is ice casters, spring is water casters and fall could DoT/debuff casters.
Did the opposing node repel the invasion last time but only killed 3 of 5 bosses? Maybe those last two bosses will have an extra harvest item since it's been two weeks since they were killed.
If your character successfully repelled an invasion force this week, then you can't find them again for the rest of the week. If you haven't fought the invasion force this week, maybe you could go into the neighboring node and look for it there.
Changing the elements slightly while keeping the main boss mechanics the same leads to greater enjoyment. Did you see so-and-so on Twitch do this mechanic to beat the fight? Too bad, you have different adds to deal with so you'll have to adjust your strategy on the fly. Set roles wouldn't become the meta on a given raid because it's never the exact same twice. I think things such as this could help raids remain fun.
Ideas for meaningful raid content:
Repeated invasion forces to be rebuffed.
An infestation that occurs weekly if harvesters gather beyond a set amount of resources. The amount of resources taken determine the number of boss mobs to be defeated in that week's raid. The amount of boss mobs defeated impacts the resources available in the node.
Divine nodes require you to fight your way to a shrine to add oil to a flame that cannot go out regularly to remain in good graces. If the flame goes out, then the divine node isn't looked upon favorably that week.
Economic nodes could have to repair/defend a bridge/road in the node to keep trade flowing. If the road isn't kept repaired, then travel time for caravans goes up slightly.
Scientific nodes could have a task to clear out pests from a library or defend it regularly to maintain full access to the knowledge. Damage to any part of the library would require repairs which may lock some knowledge for a short period.
Seasonal events that come back year after year: annual flooding that sends animals into the node, spring invasions after the NPC's had a harsh winter and starved, annual fall harvesting that causes thieves to try and steal a node's riches.
As for raid difficulty, I like challenging raids that take months to beat. Having the best gear shouldn't guarantee you can beat a given raid. It should be a cooperation of everyone performing their role and understanding the mechanics of what you're facing. Even when mechanics are understood, it should take a while to reach proficiency enough to beat the boss. Some of the best MMO memories are finally beating content we've worked on for months and then being so excited you couldn't sleep that night.
I do think there need to be separate raid options for varying levels of skill or gear. Some raids would have fewer mechanics to face for folks learning how to do raids. Escalating boss difficulty in raids is welcome. Raids of various time lengths - some folks can only devote a couple of hours a night and can't do a raid that takes four hours start to finish.
Something I would love to see is a bonus boss behind a riddle door or sphinx with changing requirements that are random. Different instances could requires someone with lockpicking skills, someone with knowledge of a language, a harvesting difficulty check, a certain type of pet or mount, a particular ore or plant, a certain type of stone worn in jewelry or even questions about events occurring in the game world.
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Undead CanuckMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Well, hopefully, the player death penalties stay the same. Only dropping materials and not finished items (unless corrupted). That should help mitigate the 'lets steal all their stuff they got from killing that boss since they are exhausted now!'.
Open world = fun
Instanced = boring after the first 5 runs.
Open world = new scenario every time. Includes PvP or what you have.
Instanced = Sterelized environment. Same scenario every time.
The difficulty should revolve around the proper resource managment of the supports and healers, the CC ability of the tanks, and the activation of mechanisms involved,by DDs.
Open world = fun
Instanced = boring after the first 5 runs.
Open world = new scenario every time. Includes PvP or what you have.
Instanced = Sterelized environment. Same scenario every time.
The difficulty should revolve around the proper resource managment of the supports and healers, the CC ability of the tanks, and the activation of mechanisms involved,by DDs.
I would agree that instances are boring after 5 successful runs, but at least with raids, if your first 5 runs are successful, something is wrong.
If a full raid zone of 8 or more boss mobs is fully cleared after less than 12 attempts, that game needs to hire better content developers.
If the content takes 12 attempts, and then you have 5 more after that before it gets bring, thats 17 weeks (4 months) worth of not boring from that content.
I've yet to see open world PvE content that was even a tenth as interesting as average instanced content. It can't be - open world content can and will be cheesed if the developers tried to make it even remotely resemble instanced content.
Literally the only thing about open world content is the potential for PvP. That doesn't mean the content is interesting, it just means there is potential for PvP.
Open world = fun
Instanced = boring after the first 5 runs.
Open world = new scenario every time. Includes PvP or what you have.
Instanced = Sterelized environment. Same scenario every time.
The difficulty should revolve around the proper resource managment of the supports and healers, the CC ability of the tanks, and the activation of mechanisms involved,by DDs.
I would rather concentrate on the boss instead of my surroundings, hoping that noone suddenly comes around and tries to steal it. Battling the boss is hard enough xD
I believe that before you start designing difficulty you have to finalize the combat.
My current favorite game is Vermintide 2 which I played for over 600+ hours, not for loot, achievements etc. but for the challenge, great combat and ability to learn and improve after every run.
Now my ideal dungeon and raid experience difficulty would be similiar to Vermintide levels. Vermintide managed to create replayability and difficulty I have not seen in any other game.
Now how does actually look a Vermintide playthrough through a level?
- A group of 4 heroes spawns in a set starting position with a main objective to do.
- Throughout the whole level a number of static npc enemies spawn in random placements, numbers and density
- Consumable items are randomly spawned in fixed locations (healing, potion buffs, aoe bombs)
- Heroes are able to take multiple path to progress through, shortcuts etc. and as a side objective they can pick up difficulty increasing items which give better rewards at the end of the sucessful run.
These items called "tomes" and "grimoares" block the healing and potion slot. In addition, grimoares reduce the hp of whole party by set %
- Game sends "Specials" throughout the whole level to keep heroes on edge, these are highly impactful enemies capable of disabling heroes, area denial and high damage.
- Heroes are encouraged to progress through the level at fast pace due to the presence of Horde and Ambush events
These events happen on a random timer
- In addition game can chose to spawn a strong "Patrol" of fairly dangerous enemies in a preset route, they should be avoided
or
A mini boss charging at the enemies
- At some point heroes must do a so called "Terror" event, they are mandatory side objectives that block your way
During this a continues waves of enemies charge at heroes until the objective is done
I think this is pretty much a core of VT2, unless I forgot something.
Most of the events can overlap, obviously the higher the difficulty the more frequent and dangerous they are
+ the game offers plenty of fair difficulty levels and enemy modifiers if you wish to push the difficulty to the maximum (without any hero power increase)
I am not sure how something like this would work in an MMO setting but I belive it would most definetly make the experience far more enjoyable and dynamic than lets say the old school "WoW dungeon"
I personally enjoy failing if there is a room I can improve to overcome the challenge
I believe that before you start designing difficulty you have to finalize the combat.
My current favorite game is Vermintide 2 which I played for over 600+ hours, not for loot, achievements etc. but for the challenge, great combat and ability to learn and improve after every run.
Now my ideal dungeon and raid experience difficulty would be similiar to Vermintide levels. Vermintide managed to create replayability and difficulty I have not seen in any other game.
Now how does actually look a Vermintide playthrough through a level?
- A group of 4 heroes spawns in a set starting position with a main objective to do.
- Throughout the whole level a number of static npc enemies spawn in random placements, numbers and density
- Consumable items are randomly spawned in fixed locations (healing, potion buffs, aoe bombs)
- Heroes are able to take multiple path to progress through, shortcuts etc. and as a side objective they can pick up difficulty increasing items which give better rewards at the end of the sucessful run.
These items called "tomes" and "grimoares" block the healing and potion slot. In addition, grimoares reduce the hp of whole party by set %
- Game sends "Specials" throughout the whole level to keep heroes on edge, these are highly impactful enemies capable of disabling heroes, area denial and high damage.
- Heroes are encouraged to progress through the level at fast pace due to the presence of Horde and Ambush events
These events happen on a random timer
- In addition game can chose to spawn a strong "Patrol" of fairly dangerous enemies in a preset route, they should be avoided
or
A mini boss charging at the enemies
- At some point heroes must do a so called "Terror" event, they are mandatory side objectives that block your way
During this a continues waves of enemies charge at heroes until the objective is done
I think this is pretty much a core of VT2, unless I forgot something.
Most of the events can overlap, obviously the higher the difficulty the more frequent and dangerous they are
+ the game offers plenty of fair difficulty levels and enemy modifiers if you wish to push the difficulty to the maximum (without any hero power increase)
I am not sure how something like this would work in an MMO setting but I belive it would most definetly make the experience far more enjoyable and dynamic than lets say the old school "WoW dungeon"
I personally enjoy failing if there is a room I can improve to overcome the challenge
That is a really cool concept!
In a MMORPG setting it would probably be something like this:
- a static map with multiple routs
- randomly spawning enemy patroles and camps
- something like the mythic+ altar from wow at the beginning of the dungeon to increase difficulty (reduce mana/hp regen, increase damage taken etc)
- mini bosses spawn randomly throughout the instance
- the enemy npcs respawn after some time
- they have to complete a random event to summon each boss or to unlock the way
I played Vermintide 1 for around 2 months, before i could not manage it with my university and the at the time regular wow raids, but it did make me have a ton of fun. ^^
Raid and Event Difficulty should be directly correlated to the quality of loot you receive upon successful completion. If side objectives or side bosses are added to kill/escort NPCs to open deeper and harder parts of the dungeons, those bosses should subsequently drop better loot OR give a meaningful incentive to players to complete.
I also am not sure how to handle loot drop rarity. A few people have alluded to how raid and event difficulty isn't the same thing as how bothersome or annoying it is to get gear. For example: Running a 3 hour dungeon to have your item have a 2% drop rate off an end boss. Raids are a bit different, but I think some of the same concepts overlap. There should also be some sort of reward to clear all the mobs to prevent things like "speed running". You don't want the game to become all about how fast people can clear the content, but rather keep it adventurous and interesting. Maybe create multiple incentives for players to return back to raids they've already done to help friends or to complete their own sets after they've completed a different raid/event.
I’m a big fan of the teach then test method. But, the test shouldn’t be over one boss later.
Mechanics should continue building upon each other, not necessarily more of them, but variations of established ones. If you show that mixing auras is bad, have those auras be meaningful in other ways. Maybe you deal more damage to enemies of the same type of aura. Maybe they do less damage to you. Maybe in the final fight tanks and offtanks have to juggle bosses when auras switch among them. Maybe the group has to intentionally trigger auras to change to adapt to the boss(es).
Mechanics can be complex without being numerous, and personally I get a bit tired if I have to juggle five entirely different mechanics as a healer while focusing on healing and buff management.
I love raids (and dungeons) where you can lock in your progression. In other words, the mechanics of the dungeon or raid instance require specific steps, triggers, floors, bosses and external progression outside of the zone. But once you obtain that level of progression you can begin at that point and keep working (for weeks) to get to the end and reap a massive reward.
The reward versus effort is what dictates the "fun" aspect.
A memorable experience will need to be difficult and/or time consuming.
A fun AND memorable experience will yield a unique Godmode reward that can never be obtained in any other way. A demonstration to other players of your achievement.
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leameseMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I like more chalanging raids. But there should be different lvl difficulties for different players.
The high level raids and events should definitely be difficult and hace sweet rewards
I dont believe an absolute answer exists for this question.
Think of an single player game, someone will choose the easiest mode and find enough challenge and fun when others go for the hardest modes.
I find the only way to make the game challenging and fun at the same time is allowing freedom of choice to rule.
The items you get from hardest encounters dont need to have op stats, minor upgrade and visible gear piece that shows people you own is enough.
Op gear upgrades force all types of players to complete the content.
When you allow enough freedom players can choose different paths to progress that fit their craving for challenge, a bit like in single player games.
Personally, I think the core of making an encounter fun is feeling like everyone is needed in the raid. Say ten dps left the raid for irl reasons, instead of replacing them the team goes "our tank is a beast, we can do it" which makes dps classes feel irrelevant.
"You're seeking for perfection, but your disillusions are leading to destruction.
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
For events I think the difficulty should be respondent to how many people do the event, the more people who do it the harder it gets. That being said while I like the idea of events encouraging grouping up with fellow players in the area I don't think making them impossible to due solo if you cant find anyone is a good idea.
Regarding raiding content I think there should be a beginner raid or raiding level that lets people who normally would never raid dip their toe into the scene to see if it can be fun. If they actually like raiding then they should look into doing the harder raids or difficulty on those raids which should scale immensely with the hardest difficulties giving the best gear but requiring the most effort and time. TLDR I think while raiding should be easy to get into, the truly hard or rewarding content should be something people devote time, effort, and resources to conquer. Easy to start, hard but not rage inducing to master.
I'll tell you how raids should be, the difficulty should arise from boss mechanics and not phased or stats. The bosses should be able to move like their suppose to move, we dont want too many static bosses it feels like were chipping on wood and yell timber....
Thanks all for joining in on another Dev Discussion about raid & event difficulty! I'm gathering together a quick recap for the team now, but please feel free to keep posting your thoughts and examples here
Well first a raid or dungeoun raid is a big dungeoun. Should be interesting and fun. Think that instead of difficultty you should be asking yourself how to make it fun. You can have a moderatley difficult dungeoun but if that dungeoun or raid is fun then people will be most likely to run it again.
So let me cover interesting and fun. Now this section has to with game mechanics not necessarily difficulty.
Switches like levers, winches mini siege weapon to break down door. One of the most used counter wieghts is sand bags so if an archer could shoot it nad let the sand of the bag then that opens gate door barrier. Keys of course looted from mobs and party key ring.
Distractions In an old game called The Mark of Kri toon could shoot bells and flock of birds to make the enemy go that way and check it out. This could be a spell or Illussion of small animal like rat or spider that needs to be killed. Then go in for kill.
In the same game they had stealth instant kills traps in the sequel. maybe rogues could get one or two of this in various dungeouns. And in the same game they had whistle blowers that alerted the rest of the group that had to be killed first. Plus when the monster goes around the corner you just kill them. This could be done as a group by casting a silence spell so others could not hear and or stunn or chain cc. But could always opt to just pull eveything.
Now most games have the universal interact icon mouse over changes to interact icon which is fine but if you do that then you have to make room big enough and put enough things in a room to simulate a search vs small room only one object and that is object to interact with.
Another thing to make things interesting is terrian. For example are there places were ranged dps can stand like a ledge to cheap shot mobs whiel tank is tanking them. One that i like is a portcullis wiht lever to activated that you can see what is on the other side. So what usually is on the other side is a bunch of mobs and ounce you open the portcullis well there is noe turning back. Point were parites should stop to let cool downs reset make sure at full health and identify kill order. But they are other things like using traps to kill mobs. Rolling a stone of a ledge. Rangers have a knock back can it be used to push a monster of ledge to their death.
Are their any items of interest. One exampleis a barrel dependign on size can be rolled and be picked up and throuwn. Can you put a dwarf in it roll it toward a mob get extra damage and barrel breaks on impact and the dwarf comes out tanking. Items of itnerest also include siege weapons. Do mobs drop items or weapons that can be used against them. For example mobs could drop a haste potion that is specific to that dungeoun.
One more thing I like to mention is the killing order is important. Like healers and mobs that cc adn debuff and buff or monster with special abilities.
So what you do is make a long list the type of things you could put int a dungeoun and then draw from that. Now remember if you over do anything like levers than it becomes redundant.
As a player while I am doing a dungeoun I am looking around to see what types of things the devs put in the dungeoun a lot of times it is next to nothing. Something is better than nothing. >Notice I have not said anything about boss fights that is another topic.
Now another thing to consider what reasons does person have to do that raid and or dungeouns. For example. their could be mni challenges like interupt five spells, stun 5 specific type of mob, use barrel to kill ten mobs open 3 doors using sieged engine. Then their are the usually achievemts. But especialyl for raids do the mobs or bosses drop special crafting material. How is the loot. Now when companies make money of loot and consumables well by its very nature it is pretty good cause they want money for. By that same standard is the loot in the raid worth the time and the posssible grind. Pay to win companies basically get and A every time as far as loot is concerned. So recommendation is make lists of reasons to do a raid other than completing it and gold they get and draw . Verses the difference beween medium and hard is gear score hp dmg exact same loot table just gear score is higher. So harder raids should have extras and perks assocaited to them.
You maybe reading this say this has to do more with dungeoun design than diffuculty. But think you guys ought to think about dungeoun complexity and raid mechanics. One of the things I like about WoW is how creative the mini boss fights and boss fights are and fun they are. really cannot help you and that one cause I am not there at IS to make those dungeouns.
If you are going to go in a certain direction with raids were things are not spoon fed then and streamline and more difficult, well i think you have to get people used to that kind of like weening a child.
As far as raid difficulty and event difficulty. Well if you make the event fun and creative and rewarding then people will love to do your dungeons. But just to answer your question think. As Far as AI goes Let me dierect you to a game called X-com enemy unkown. There is an alien called an etheral with a full set of abilties. But even on the hardest setting they would it does not use its most powerful abilty every time just ounce in a while so when they used their most powerful ability it is a challenge and a surprise. (just so happens you have one of the devs from that project.) So think monsters should be given abilites and the more difficult the raid or dungeoun gets more of a chance for them to use some of their more powerful abilites. Ounce again if they use it everytime it becomes redundant and not special.
And to put in terms of risk vs reward. Or how likley you are to wipe or how much skill. you have to have. Well think the majority of the dungeouns should not go over moderated difficulty mainly focussing on fun. With the options to do challenge content like timed runs. Content were not every does that type of content. There should be at least one or two difficult dungeons and that are not challenge material but kind of prep for dugeons or raids for the challenge material. And one very difficult 40 man raid. Really in the hardest part of raiding is getting all those people on the same sheet of music and learning the fights. There definitely should be a few easy dungeouns to introduce the game.
As far as the dials I would like to see, Is Increasing the number of mobs not incresing the hp and damage plus Adding differetn types of monsters to make same dungeoun more difficult. And raid mechanics that vary from simple to hard. Every raid event and dungeoun should have some raid mechanic even if it a simple one.
Wanted to say that there is a better to find a way to increase the replay value of content than to make it difficult. In WoW there there are herioc raids but unless you are playing at competative level what is the point of doing it lets say 20 times. When you have to do the exact same thing all 20times. Since raiddoes not has have any variance then it just becomes boring. Kind of like winning a hard race in a racing game justs gets old after 25 times. That is the reason lots of people play wow when expansion comes out then after a while subs decline.
I mean mobs bosses use abilities in the exact order and exact time every time.
So no surpises. The opposite of this is Random generated dungeouns like in X-com enemy unknown. You could perhaps keep the last two bosses in raid same and have some variance on other parts of the dungeouns that are not so critical therefore combining the two styles of dungeoun design.
Also forgot to mention is is better to err on the side of to diffiult then make it easier if you have to. If a dungeoun is to easy then yu make it harder well every one already has completed adn gotten of the loot.
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RokoMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
In my opinion raids should be a series of events. An adventure of a series of challenges that take days of questing and finding / crafting secrets / weapons, fighting different difficulty bosses that are in very different locations, require different strategies to even fight with them. All of this can even be with different teams that lead up to a final battle, not a single run of a series of bosses in rapid succession.
I have not played that many MMOS but in the ones I've played, a raid is an instance or single location where you go in and there is a row of bosses just standing there inside the same building or in buildings pretty close to each other waiting to be killed. And you have to burn through for a few hours of constant battle to get to them. You can kill a boss made of flames, water or lava with swords, hammers, axes or magic of the same element, when you should have had to build special weapons to fight that specific enemy or done a special activity to weaken him in order to make him vulnerable to your physical attacks.
It's action packed but it lacks adventure and creativity, everything is there in plain sight and you can clear it in a few hours of diligent battling just by beating it with a stick so to speak. without any regards to anything else other than combat power and some choreographed dodges.
we should be able to get creative, and if the boss is made of flames be able to lure him under a lake and then blow up the foundation to get him wet or at least susceptible to the physical weapons. or have a different strategy for the same battle and this time instead of luring him away, bring special weapons that are infused with water magic and can actually hurt him. Get the mages to keep the boss wet instead of throwing more fire towards him and somehow damaging him with fireballs instead of healing him which makes no sense. if you have to take down Ragnaros you don't bring a fire mage and have him throw fire at the firelord. Come on! Make team composition matter according to the enemy, or challenge.
point is if you want to make fights matter then make it so you require to craft / find stuff you wouldn't normally need in order to undertake it. Or have the teams think outside the box in order to make the bosses vulnerable to normal means of attack.
And if you want to make raids matter, get rid of the boss rush mentality and have people actually go and adventure for days before the final fight.
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poisonzMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Don't HOLD PEOPLE'S HANDS! make it hard as fudge!
make it painful
make it legendary!!!
don't listen to these casuals
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poisonzMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
make it a story that can be passed down
ehhem...
day 4722 in the planet Verra... we've came across a monster that poped out the volcano.. like rly dude O_O it was on a rampage for two weeks that destroyed 2 metropolis until the group of so and so (hero's list bellow) destroyed ending its reign allowing the land to flourish once again
Day 54:
I... I dont remember what try this will be... I think we ended yesterday around try 591. Steve messed up in Phase 30 and set the whole healer team on fire. What an asshole, he just had to dodge the argonissian vipers, while carrying the chandelier to set the signalfires alight, easy to mess up apparently.
Today is the day where we kill it, i can feel it in my bones. All 5 raid teams are ready, our tanks got all 50 openworld buffs and drugged up with elixirs. I managed to rope in a Bard with a full Hymn of Vengeance set, that should give us the edge we need.
We either kill that dragon, or we wont return at all.
Daddy needs some new dragonhide boots!
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CaelronMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
One input I would like to see in both raids and events, but mostly events is:
Different "win" conditions and/or outcomes.
That could maybe mean: If you're facing an encounter with a council-style fight. Let's say 1 "Head" boss, with a council of 12. (Think: walking in to a board-meeting for a business... or evil organization.)
Of course, each council-member should have their own utility, but they should be incredibly difficult to fight as a single unit. However, what if you found a way to bribe one of the members of the council from an earlier quest? Maybe that would remove one of the members. Or maybe you're a baker on the side and you literally lured out half of them because you brought lunch to a lunch meeting, making the fight split up.
Or somehow you killed council-member 7 last, and he "gives up", telling you about a secret key to a secret chest the others don't know about. And council-member 11 has a secret stash of cute pets, and he just wants to see them saved, so he gives them up - giving you a special achievement for rescuing animals. Whereas just killing everybody and the big-boss last just has you loot the bodies... possibly revealing nothing except whatever gear they had?
Or maybe forgery is somehow one of the skills or professions, and you managed to bring a specific scroll signed by the high magistrate with his specific seal (fake, of course) removing one of them from power, and placing yourself in their place - so they all don't become immediately hostile... or maybe only one of them challenges you to a 1-on-1 duel instead of fighting the whole team for his seat.
An example of in-game elements:
In the game Nexus TK: The Kingdom of the Winds, each character had it's own "Legend" sheet. Basically an achievement sheet you could inspect on every character.
For one simple quest, you could help an imprisoned Leviathan, which would reward you with a "Freed Leviathan" legend mark. Or, if you wanted to portray a more evil character, you could kill some of them, then get branded with an "Sworn enemy of the Leviathans" mark.
In this case, freeing them also yields a reward, potentially very valuable to you at that level, while killing them doesn't yield anything except perhaps a loot drop from whatever you killed.
It would be nice to see multiple potential endings to quests in more modern mmorpg's, rather than a standard step-by-step with 1 outcome quest. If there's a good story in those, I don't mind one bit. But you're usually an errand-boy for everybody... some that won't talk to each other 3 feet away, and somehow that means you need to mediate between them.
To me, the challenge and the fun comes from the discovery as well as the independent choice on how to handle things. Having multiple outcomes is not only fun, but gives the player a greater sense of choice and uniqueness.
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2. Boss stuns always ramp up difficulty, though it's annoying if this is used too often.
3. Difficulty should be equal to reward. If it's a Boss that can drop a gorgeous mount that you know will be sought after, ramp up that difficulty up. Make it special when we see that mount riding down the street, and special for that player whenever they summon it.
4. Events are a way to get the community at large into hopefully a fun memorable thing, so the difficulty shouldn't be too high, or there should be a range of difficulties so the majority of the game population can participate in some way. Or have multiple roles for various power levels. If a major event hits a metropolis, maybe not everyone can fight the main boss, or even his lieutenants, but most people can kill the lower level creatures in a horde, while the stronger players fight higher up the food chain.
My impression on what raids should be is either a dungeon/event requiring the same amount of players as normal but at a higher difficulty, or a dungeon/event requiring more players than usual but of normal difficulty.
The impression I get from people reminiscing about raids is they're 40 man boss encounters that require frame perfect, pixel perfect inputs and positioning from all 40 players or all 40 players will die. That sounds absurdly hard, and I don't like hard.
My own definition of hard is "hard" is an intolerance of player mistakes. The more a game allows the player to fail, the "easier" it is. Challenging is requiring more from the player, either better thinking, pattern recognition, information gathering, etc. Dark Souls would not be a hard game, but it is challenging.
The trials I played in ESO were Aetherian Archive and Hel Ra Citadel, and both were rather enjoyable. For one, AA's first boss is soloable. There is no time limit or mechanics requiring other players, so as long as you survive the auto attacks and play the mechanic, it can be beaten alone. Both AA and HRC split the party up multiple times; AA splits the 12-man into 3 4-man groups multiple times throughout, each with their own objective and independent of the other sub-groups; HRC splits the 12-man into 2 6-man groups for the middle third of the trial.
In both instances, it's fun to reduce the group size and actually feel how much of a contribution you are making to the fight. When all 12 are wailing on a boss, it's impossible to tell how much you're contributing, if anything, and there's nothing you can do if the others are lacking. Split into sub-groups, it's more like running multiple normal dungeons in parallel.
HRC's split is also fun for one of the sub groups, but not so much for the other. The top group has to assault the ramparts, fighting mobs and elite mobs as they raise gates and destroy siege engines so the lower group can pass further into the citadel. The lower group has to hold out at each gate until the top group succeeds, with both routes culminating in separate boss fights. This is where the lower route gets less fun as they hit their boss sooner, bombarded by siege. This also means the boss is beefier since the routes are supposed to finish at about the same time. Basically bottom has a too long boss fight that even if they finish quickly, still have to wait for top group to finish. Top group has a shorter boss and doesn't have to wait on bottom group for anything as they advance across the walls.
AA's split groups each have a group of mobs to fight, each sub-group getting a different batch to slay. This is fun for the reason that you tangibly contribute more to the fight this time rather than when it's a 12 stack. The unfun part of AA's split group mechanic is the path forward doesn't open until all 3 groups are done. Now, when one group finishes they can parkour rocks to assist the other, but it's still dull waiting for potentially minutes as the sub-group full of bad players barely scrapes by their encounter.
I think what I enjoy the most in trials is fighting many many normal or elite enemies rather than a single massive one. Progress in the raid is more tangible when actually killing things rather than dinking a giant health bar. For final bosses, a singular big bad is fitting, but multiple elite enemies would be better, as their individual health bars won't be so bloated and they collectively pose the same threat as a big bad. I'd also find it more believable than one human having 300x the HP of everything else "just 'cause raid boss."
So yeah, I'd say mechanics that don't require you to wait on other group members but still interact with them (such as disarming hazards for each other) are fun and throwing more mobs at the party is more fun and more believable than a damage sponge.
A raid idea that'd fulfill these criteria is ousting a squatting army from a castle. You'll need 40 people to fight that many soldiers, you can divide into sub-groups to clear the ramparts and courtyard, and the final fight can be with the general and elite guards, each the strength of a regular dungeon boss. While you may have to wait in the throne room for the other sub-group to return, you won't be dependent on them for advancing but they can make your life easier by unmanning oil pots and archer nests. In turn you can cut off reinforcements, smoke out barracks, and use stationary siege to help the other group clear their route.
For me to want to participate in a raid or event (without being begged and pleaded to join), I really have to be convinced I will have a meaningful, challenging enough and fun experience, free of griefing and exploits, that isn't going to be the same procedural thing over and over, but also isn't so onerous that it will exhaust or crush my spirit for play.
World events, should relate to the development of the world. Gladly also with "super bosses" which can defeat only several Nodes / Krieger armies. So that the world remains interesting and varied.
Events should be nice for PvP, PvE and craftsmen, no one should be forced to do PvP if he does not want to, but he should still have a nice event, you could also add Node goals, where all 3 sectors will do the tasks to get resources or unique skins for the node at the end. This promotes the cohesion of a node and creates common goals.
The raid could successfully repel them even if all the bosses weren't defeated. If enough of the canon fodder is killed, the orcs will retreat when players are done. If the players didn't manage to kill many of the bosses, then they just have less loot to show on this week's attempt.
The raid should change based on what happened in previous encounters. Did you wipe out an insect swarm that the orcs use to proceed their invasion? Maybe this invasion it will be a rat swarm with slightly different mechanics to start. Did last week's invasion Boss-Fight#2 have two adds that had to be CC'd during the fight? Maybe this week's Boss-Fight#2 will have one add that must be CC'd and one add that must be interrupted constantly. The explanation for the change is that each time the invasion is repopulated, the invaders may change a bit. The main mechanics for each fight stay the same, but there are slight tweaks that can vary encounter to encounter.
Another example of the raid changing slightly is that the next invasion may be from a different orc tribe. The last time you fought them were they the Fire Orc tribe? There were lots of AE's to dodge and emphasis to get the casters down as fast as possible before the effects overwhelm the healers. Maybe the next invasion is the Summoning Orc tribe. This leads to an emphasis on interrupts before adds are called during Boss fights. Then there could be a Healing Orc tribe that requires interrupts on some of the adds while the DPS work through the healers one by one to override their healing ability with DPS numbers. Some raids could go the interrupt route depending on classes available and other raids may use CC instead if they have the classes for that.
Or maybe the seasons determine the types of casters present in the invasions. During summer there is a greater proliferation of fire casters, winter is ice casters, spring is water casters and fall could DoT/debuff casters.
Did the opposing node repel the invasion last time but only killed 3 of 5 bosses? Maybe those last two bosses will have an extra harvest item since it's been two weeks since they were killed.
If your character successfully repelled an invasion force this week, then you can't find them again for the rest of the week. If you haven't fought the invasion force this week, maybe you could go into the neighboring node and look for it there.
Changing the elements slightly while keeping the main boss mechanics the same leads to greater enjoyment. Did you see so-and-so on Twitch do this mechanic to beat the fight? Too bad, you have different adds to deal with so you'll have to adjust your strategy on the fly. Set roles wouldn't become the meta on a given raid because it's never the exact same twice. I think things such as this could help raids remain fun.
Ideas for meaningful raid content:
Repeated invasion forces to be rebuffed.
An infestation that occurs weekly if harvesters gather beyond a set amount of resources. The amount of resources taken determine the number of boss mobs to be defeated in that week's raid. The amount of boss mobs defeated impacts the resources available in the node.
Divine nodes require you to fight your way to a shrine to add oil to a flame that cannot go out regularly to remain in good graces. If the flame goes out, then the divine node isn't looked upon favorably that week.
Economic nodes could have to repair/defend a bridge/road in the node to keep trade flowing. If the road isn't kept repaired, then travel time for caravans goes up slightly.
Scientific nodes could have a task to clear out pests from a library or defend it regularly to maintain full access to the knowledge. Damage to any part of the library would require repairs which may lock some knowledge for a short period.
Seasonal events that come back year after year: annual flooding that sends animals into the node, spring invasions after the NPC's had a harsh winter and starved, annual fall harvesting that causes thieves to try and steal a node's riches.
As for raid difficulty, I like challenging raids that take months to beat. Having the best gear shouldn't guarantee you can beat a given raid. It should be a cooperation of everyone performing their role and understanding the mechanics of what you're facing. Even when mechanics are understood, it should take a while to reach proficiency enough to beat the boss. Some of the best MMO memories are finally beating content we've worked on for months and then being so excited you couldn't sleep that night.
I do think there need to be separate raid options for varying levels of skill or gear. Some raids would have fewer mechanics to face for folks learning how to do raids. Escalating boss difficulty in raids is welcome. Raids of various time lengths - some folks can only devote a couple of hours a night and can't do a raid that takes four hours start to finish.
Something I would love to see is a bonus boss behind a riddle door or sphinx with changing requirements that are random. Different instances could requires someone with lockpicking skills, someone with knowledge of a language, a harvesting difficulty check, a certain type of pet or mount, a particular ore or plant, a certain type of stone worn in jewelry or even questions about events occurring in the game world.
Instanced = boring after the first 5 runs.
Open world = new scenario every time. Includes PvP or what you have.
Instanced = Sterelized environment. Same scenario every time.
The difficulty should revolve around the proper resource managment of the supports and healers, the CC ability of the tanks, and the activation of mechanisms involved,by DDs.
I would agree that instances are boring after 5 successful runs, but at least with raids, if your first 5 runs are successful, something is wrong.
If a full raid zone of 8 or more boss mobs is fully cleared after less than 12 attempts, that game needs to hire better content developers.
If the content takes 12 attempts, and then you have 5 more after that before it gets bring, thats 17 weeks (4 months) worth of not boring from that content.
I've yet to see open world PvE content that was even a tenth as interesting as average instanced content. It can't be - open world content can and will be cheesed if the developers tried to make it even remotely resemble instanced content.
Literally the only thing about open world content is the potential for PvP. That doesn't mean the content is interesting, it just means there is potential for PvP.
I would rather concentrate on the boss instead of my surroundings, hoping that noone suddenly comes around and tries to steal it. Battling the boss is hard enough xD
My current favorite game is Vermintide 2 which I played for over 600+ hours, not for loot, achievements etc. but for the challenge, great combat and ability to learn and improve after every run.
Now my ideal dungeon and raid experience difficulty would be similiar to Vermintide levels. Vermintide managed to create replayability and difficulty I have not seen in any other game.
Now how does actually look a Vermintide playthrough through a level?
- A group of 4 heroes spawns in a set starting position with a main objective to do.
- Throughout the whole level a number of static npc enemies spawn in random placements, numbers and density
- Consumable items are randomly spawned in fixed locations (healing, potion buffs, aoe bombs)
- Heroes are able to take multiple path to progress through, shortcuts etc. and as a side objective they can pick up difficulty increasing items which give better rewards at the end of the sucessful run.
These items called "tomes" and "grimoares" block the healing and potion slot. In addition, grimoares reduce the hp of whole party by set %
- Game sends "Specials" throughout the whole level to keep heroes on edge, these are highly impactful enemies capable of disabling heroes, area denial and high damage.
- Heroes are encouraged to progress through the level at fast pace due to the presence of Horde and Ambush events
These events happen on a random timer
- In addition game can chose to spawn a strong "Patrol" of fairly dangerous enemies in a preset route, they should be avoided
or
A mini boss charging at the enemies
- At some point heroes must do a so called "Terror" event, they are mandatory side objectives that block your way
During this a continues waves of enemies charge at heroes until the objective is done
I think this is pretty much a core of VT2, unless I forgot something.
Most of the events can overlap, obviously the higher the difficulty the more frequent and dangerous they are
+ the game offers plenty of fair difficulty levels and enemy modifiers if you wish to push the difficulty to the maximum (without any hero power increase)
I am not sure how something like this would work in an MMO setting but I belive it would most definetly make the experience far more enjoyable and dynamic than lets say the old school "WoW dungeon"
I personally enjoy failing if there is a room I can improve to overcome the challenge
That is a really cool concept!
In a MMORPG setting it would probably be something like this:
- a static map with multiple routs
- randomly spawning enemy patroles and camps
- something like the mythic+ altar from wow at the beginning of the dungeon to increase difficulty (reduce mana/hp regen, increase damage taken etc)
- mini bosses spawn randomly throughout the instance
- the enemy npcs respawn after some time
- they have to complete a random event to summon each boss or to unlock the way
I played Vermintide 1 for around 2 months, before i could not manage it with my university and the at the time regular wow raids, but it did make me have a ton of fun. ^^
I also am not sure how to handle loot drop rarity. A few people have alluded to how raid and event difficulty isn't the same thing as how bothersome or annoying it is to get gear. For example: Running a 3 hour dungeon to have your item have a 2% drop rate off an end boss. Raids are a bit different, but I think some of the same concepts overlap. There should also be some sort of reward to clear all the mobs to prevent things like "speed running". You don't want the game to become all about how fast people can clear the content, but rather keep it adventurous and interesting. Maybe create multiple incentives for players to return back to raids they've already done to help friends or to complete their own sets after they've completed a different raid/event.
Mechanics should continue building upon each other, not necessarily more of them, but variations of established ones. If you show that mixing auras is bad, have those auras be meaningful in other ways. Maybe you deal more damage to enemies of the same type of aura. Maybe they do less damage to you. Maybe in the final fight tanks and offtanks have to juggle bosses when auras switch among them. Maybe the group has to intentionally trigger auras to change to adapt to the boss(es).
Mechanics can be complex without being numerous, and personally I get a bit tired if I have to juggle five entirely different mechanics as a healer while focusing on healing and buff management.
The reward versus effort is what dictates the "fun" aspect.
A memorable experience will need to be difficult and/or time consuming.
A fun AND memorable experience will yield a unique Godmode reward that can never be obtained in any other way. A demonstration to other players of your achievement.
The high level raids and events should definitely be difficult and hace sweet rewards
Think of an single player game, someone will choose the easiest mode and find enough challenge and fun when others go for the hardest modes.
I find the only way to make the game challenging and fun at the same time is allowing freedom of choice to rule.
The items you get from hardest encounters dont need to have op stats, minor upgrade and visible gear piece that shows people you own is enough.
Op gear upgrades force all types of players to complete the content.
When you allow enough freedom players can choose different paths to progress that fit their craving for challenge, a bit like in single player games.
Personally, I think the core of making an encounter fun is feeling like everyone is needed in the raid. Say ten dps left the raid for irl reasons, instead of replacing them the team goes "our tank is a beast, we can do it" which makes dps classes feel irrelevant.
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
Regarding raiding content I think there should be a beginner raid or raiding level that lets people who normally would never raid dip their toe into the scene to see if it can be fun. If they actually like raiding then they should look into doing the harder raids or difficulty on those raids which should scale immensely with the hardest difficulties giving the best gear but requiring the most effort and time. TLDR I think while raiding should be easy to get into, the truly hard or rewarding content should be something people devote time, effort, and resources to conquer. Easy to start, hard but not rage inducing to master.
We'll see you for the next Dev Discussion!
So let me cover interesting and fun. Now this section has to with game mechanics not necessarily difficulty.
Switches like levers, winches mini siege weapon to break down door. One of the most used counter wieghts is sand bags so if an archer could shoot it nad let the sand of the bag then that opens gate door barrier. Keys of course looted from mobs and party key ring.
Distractions In an old game called The Mark of Kri toon could shoot bells and flock of birds to make the enemy go that way and check it out. This could be a spell or Illussion of small animal like rat or spider that needs to be killed. Then go in for kill.
In the same game they had stealth instant kills traps in the sequel. maybe rogues could get one or two of this in various dungeouns. And in the same game they had whistle blowers that alerted the rest of the group that had to be killed first. Plus when the monster goes around the corner you just kill them. This could be done as a group by casting a silence spell so others could not hear and or stunn or chain cc. But could always opt to just pull eveything.
Now most games have the universal interact icon mouse over changes to interact icon which is fine but if you do that then you have to make room big enough and put enough things in a room to simulate a search vs small room only one object and that is object to interact with.
Another thing to make things interesting is terrian. For example are there places were ranged dps can stand like a ledge to cheap shot mobs whiel tank is tanking them. One that i like is a portcullis wiht lever to activated that you can see what is on the other side. So what usually is on the other side is a bunch of mobs and ounce you open the portcullis well there is noe turning back. Point were parites should stop to let cool downs reset make sure at full health and identify kill order. But they are other things like using traps to kill mobs. Rolling a stone of a ledge. Rangers have a knock back can it be used to push a monster of ledge to their death.
Are their any items of interest. One exampleis a barrel dependign on size can be rolled and be picked up and throuwn. Can you put a dwarf in it roll it toward a mob get extra damage and barrel breaks on impact and the dwarf comes out tanking. Items of itnerest also include siege weapons. Do mobs drop items or weapons that can be used against them. For example mobs could drop a haste potion that is specific to that dungeoun.
One more thing I like to mention is the killing order is important. Like healers and mobs that cc adn debuff and buff or monster with special abilities.
So what you do is make a long list the type of things you could put int a dungeoun and then draw from that. Now remember if you over do anything like levers than it becomes redundant.
As a player while I am doing a dungeoun I am looking around to see what types of things the devs put in the dungeoun a lot of times it is next to nothing. Something is better than nothing. >Notice I have not said anything about boss fights that is another topic.
Now another thing to consider what reasons does person have to do that raid and or dungeouns. For example. their could be mni challenges like interupt five spells, stun 5 specific type of mob, use barrel to kill ten mobs open 3 doors using sieged engine. Then their are the usually achievemts. But especialyl for raids do the mobs or bosses drop special crafting material. How is the loot. Now when companies make money of loot and consumables well by its very nature it is pretty good cause they want money for. By that same standard is the loot in the raid worth the time and the posssible grind. Pay to win companies basically get and A every time as far as loot is concerned. So recommendation is make lists of reasons to do a raid other than completing it and gold they get and draw . Verses the difference beween medium and hard is gear score hp dmg exact same loot table just gear score is higher. So harder raids should have extras and perks assocaited to them.
You maybe reading this say this has to do more with dungeoun design than diffuculty. But think you guys ought to think about dungeoun complexity and raid mechanics. One of the things I like about WoW is how creative the mini boss fights and boss fights are and fun they are. really cannot help you and that one cause I am not there at IS to make those dungeouns.
If you are going to go in a certain direction with raids were things are not spoon fed then and streamline and more difficult, well i think you have to get people used to that kind of like weening a child.
As far as raid difficulty and event difficulty. Well if you make the event fun and creative and rewarding then people will love to do your dungeons. But just to answer your question think. As Far as AI goes Let me dierect you to a game called X-com enemy unkown. There is an alien called an etheral with a full set of abilties. But even on the hardest setting they would it does not use its most powerful abilty every time just ounce in a while so when they used their most powerful ability it is a challenge and a surprise. (just so happens you have one of the devs from that project.) So think monsters should be given abilites and the more difficult the raid or dungeoun gets more of a chance for them to use some of their more powerful abilites. Ounce again if they use it everytime it becomes redundant and not special.
And to put in terms of risk vs reward. Or how likley you are to wipe or how much skill. you have to have. Well think the majority of the dungeouns should not go over moderated difficulty mainly focussing on fun. With the options to do challenge content like timed runs. Content were not every does that type of content. There should be at least one or two difficult dungeons and that are not challenge material but kind of prep for dugeons or raids for the challenge material. And one very difficult 40 man raid. Really in the hardest part of raiding is getting all those people on the same sheet of music and learning the fights. There definitely should be a few easy dungeouns to introduce the game.
As far as the dials I would like to see, Is Increasing the number of mobs not incresing the hp and damage plus Adding differetn types of monsters to make same dungeoun more difficult. And raid mechanics that vary from simple to hard. Every raid event and dungeoun should have some raid mechanic even if it a simple one.
I mean mobs bosses use abilities in the exact order and exact time every time.
So no surpises. The opposite of this is Random generated dungeouns like in X-com enemy unknown. You could perhaps keep the last two bosses in raid same and have some variance on other parts of the dungeouns that are not so critical therefore combining the two styles of dungeoun design.
-Make it about strategy around coordination, positioning, timing, and learning. Do not make it a DPS race / gear check.
-Limited number of trash mobs before a boss (not 5 miles of corridors filled with them), and trash mobs should not respawn once a boss is reached.
-Make the rewards fitting to the lore, time, and effort put in rather than limiting rewards so players need to farm the content.
I have not played that many MMOS but in the ones I've played, a raid is an instance or single location where you go in and there is a row of bosses just standing there inside the same building or in buildings pretty close to each other waiting to be killed. And you have to burn through for a few hours of constant battle to get to them. You can kill a boss made of flames, water or lava with swords, hammers, axes or magic of the same element, when you should have had to build special weapons to fight that specific enemy or done a special activity to weaken him in order to make him vulnerable to your physical attacks.
It's action packed but it lacks adventure and creativity, everything is there in plain sight and you can clear it in a few hours of diligent battling just by beating it with a stick so to speak. without any regards to anything else other than combat power and some choreographed dodges.
we should be able to get creative, and if the boss is made of flames be able to lure him under a lake and then blow up the foundation to get him wet or at least susceptible to the physical weapons. or have a different strategy for the same battle and this time instead of luring him away, bring special weapons that are infused with water magic and can actually hurt him. Get the mages to keep the boss wet instead of throwing more fire towards him and somehow damaging him with fireballs instead of healing him which makes no sense. if you have to take down Ragnaros you don't bring a fire mage and have him throw fire at the firelord. Come on! Make team composition matter according to the enemy, or challenge.
point is if you want to make fights matter then make it so you require to craft / find stuff you wouldn't normally need in order to undertake it. Or have the teams think outside the box in order to make the bosses vulnerable to normal means of attack.
And if you want to make raids matter, get rid of the boss rush mentality and have people actually go and adventure for days before the final fight.
make it painful
make it legendary!!!
don't listen to these casuals
ehhem...
day 4722 in the planet Verra... we've came across a monster that poped out the volcano.. like rly dude O_O it was on a rampage for two weeks that destroyed 2 metropolis until the group of so and so (hero's list bellow) destroyed ending its reign allowing the land to flourish once again
Day 54:
I... I dont remember what try this will be... I think we ended yesterday around try 591. Steve messed up in Phase 30 and set the whole healer team on fire. What an asshole, he just had to dodge the argonissian vipers, while carrying the chandelier to set the signalfires alight, easy to mess up apparently.
Today is the day where we kill it, i can feel it in my bones. All 5 raid teams are ready, our tanks got all 50 openworld buffs and drugged up with elixirs. I managed to rope in a Bard with a full Hymn of Vengeance set, that should give us the edge we need.
We either kill that dragon, or we wont return at all.
Daddy needs some new dragonhide boots!
Different "win" conditions and/or outcomes.
That could maybe mean: If you're facing an encounter with a council-style fight. Let's say 1 "Head" boss, with a council of 12. (Think: walking in to a board-meeting for a business... or evil organization.)
Of course, each council-member should have their own utility, but they should be incredibly difficult to fight as a single unit. However, what if you found a way to bribe one of the members of the council from an earlier quest? Maybe that would remove one of the members. Or maybe you're a baker on the side and you literally lured out half of them because you brought lunch to a lunch meeting, making the fight split up.
Or somehow you killed council-member 7 last, and he "gives up", telling you about a secret key to a secret chest the others don't know about. And council-member 11 has a secret stash of cute pets, and he just wants to see them saved, so he gives them up - giving you a special achievement for rescuing animals. Whereas just killing everybody and the big-boss last just has you loot the bodies... possibly revealing nothing except whatever gear they had?
Or maybe forgery is somehow one of the skills or professions, and you managed to bring a specific scroll signed by the high magistrate with his specific seal (fake, of course) removing one of them from power, and placing yourself in their place - so they all don't become immediately hostile... or maybe only one of them challenges you to a 1-on-1 duel instead of fighting the whole team for his seat.
An example of in-game elements:
In the game Nexus TK: The Kingdom of the Winds, each character had it's own "Legend" sheet. Basically an achievement sheet you could inspect on every character.
For one simple quest, you could help an imprisoned Leviathan, which would reward you with a "Freed Leviathan" legend mark. Or, if you wanted to portray a more evil character, you could kill some of them, then get branded with an "Sworn enemy of the Leviathans" mark.
In this case, freeing them also yields a reward, potentially very valuable to you at that level, while killing them doesn't yield anything except perhaps a loot drop from whatever you killed.
It would be nice to see multiple potential endings to quests in more modern mmorpg's, rather than a standard step-by-step with 1 outcome quest. If there's a good story in those, I don't mind one bit. But you're usually an errand-boy for everybody... some that won't talk to each other 3 feet away, and somehow that means you need to mediate between them.
To me, the challenge and the fun comes from the discovery as well as the independent choice on how to handle things. Having multiple outcomes is not only fun, but gives the player a greater sense of choice and uniqueness.