Just feedback from someone who backed you early. I never signed up for non-consensual PvP griefing. I never signed up for "caravan PvP". How on Earth could you be repeating these fundamental mistakes from earlier MMOs? The caravan PvP system in ArcheAge, for example, drove thousands of us away (or kept us away in the first place). And the various karma/corruption/etc. systems to somehow limit non-consensual open world griefing? It NEVER works. It is ALWAYS gamed by certain players. It RUINS the experience of PvE players.
No thanks. It's your game, you can do what you want, but I'm out. And you are setting yourself up to fail in the marketplace.
You actually did sign up for non-consensual PvP.
Its been known since the kickstarter that there would be a flagging system and open world PvP.
Also, its a nice opinion to have, but they aren't setting themselves up for failure. The majority of people are ok with the flagging system, the gankers want a few things changed.
If Ashes doesn't work out, there is always Pantheon.
And this is why Steven has Said Ashes won't be for everyone.
My question here is.. who are the caravan’s intended for? If a small group of players need to do these caravans to progress or are they only really needed for large groups of people?
If the small groups of people are needed to do these caravans do they come with some sort of NPC guards as well, so there has to be a threshold of people attaching to defeat the caravan? If it’s just who ever is sending it then it’s like just throwing around a loot bag on the floor to another location hoping people won’t take it..
If it’s Only required for large groups of people, like guilds etc, I don’t really see a problem..
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tugowarMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Just feedback from someone who backed you early. I never signed up for non-consensual PvP griefing. I never signed up for "caravan PvP". How on Earth could you be repeating these fundamental mistakes from earlier MMOs? The caravan PvP system in ArcheAge, for example, drove thousands of us away (or kept us away in the first place). And the various karma/corruption/etc. systems to somehow limit non-consensual open world griefing? It NEVER works. It is ALWAYS gamed by certain players. It RUINS the experience of PvE players.
No thanks. It's your game, you can do what you want, but I'm out. And you are setting yourself up to fail in the marketplace.
You actually did sign up for non-consensual PvP.
Its been known since the kickstarter that there would be a flagging system and open world PvP.
Also, its a nice opinion to have, but they aren't setting themselves up for failure. The majority of people are ok with the flagging system, the gankers want a few things changed.
If Ashes doesn't work out, there is always Pantheon.
And this is why Steven has Said Ashes won't be for everyone.
if it wasnt obvious this guy is just an anti PvPer. Chances are he didnt even know the game existed until a day or so ago. He didnt back the game. All that happened is he watched a video of the next possible big MMO and decided he wanted to play it. But not that he wanted to play the devs version. No he is an anti PvPer. He could give two shits that the devs want PvX or you or I do or anyone else. As far as this guy is concerned if you want PvP go play call of duty. You cant reason with it. You cant explain anything to it. It gives 0 shits. All you can do is make sure that these kids dont come across as the majority that they like to.
People who haven't backed can post on these forums?
That's different to what I'm used to. Maybe only backers should be able to post, to prevent all these toxic threads from popping up constantly.
Take a look at every mmo that has come out and failed. Removing PvP will destroy every single game that comes out. Look at what is happening to new world. NON STOP complaints about it on facebook groups, forums, youtube. Ganking and griefing will happen. They do need to stay on top of positive implementations to prevent these things but don't ever remove pvp.
I like how you throw in the early backer comment as if it makes your opinion more relevant than the next haha. Silly.
People who haven't backed can post on these forums?
That's different to what I'm used to. Maybe only backers should be able to post, to prevent all these toxic threads from popping up constantly.
no sadly your moms credit card cant help you in the forums.
People who haven't backed can post on these forums?
That's different to what I'm used to. Maybe only backers should be able to post, to prevent all these toxic threads from popping up constantly.
no sadly your moms credit card cant help you in the forums.
Nothing wrong with providing construction criticism but imagine demanding a feature before even playing the game or threatening to quit.
Are you saying you don't trust the devs to build the game you want? Are you saying that if they don't make the game exactly the way you want that you will quit the game?
Suggest changes that you want and back it up with good reasons why.
People who haven't backed can post on these forums?
That's different to what I'm used to. Maybe only backers should be able to post, to prevent all these toxic threads from popping up constantly.
no sadly your moms credit card cant help you in the forums.
People who haven't backed can post on these forums?
That's different to what I'm used to. Maybe only backers should be able to post, to prevent all these toxic threads from popping up constantly.
no sadly your moms credit card cant help you in the forums.
I been jumping in these forums every few months to voice my concerns on this subject and check on dev progress. As for the caravans, I'm on the fence I believe they have great risk v reward potential and a legit pvp mechanic. My concern is that they will be a big rolling target with a red bullseye painted on the side that can be easily cheesed. I'm more about stealth moving my valuables under the cover of darkness. But in the end they are voluntary and thus consensual pvp.
My problem is with the open world/non-consensual pvp. Where he has the choice and I have none, I must submit to his play style with no regard to the choice I have made to just chop down a few trees to feed my campfire.
The open world PvP in this game has enough punishing mechanics for griefers. If you think there will be any serious griefing you haven't read on the corruption system and death penalties in detail.
I been jumping in these forums every few months to voice my concerns on this subject and check on dev progress. As for the caravans, I'm on the fence I believe they have great risk v reward potential and a legit pvp mechanic. My concern is that they will be a big rolling target with a red bullseye painted on the side that can be easily cheesed. I'm more about stealth moving my valuables under the cover of darkness. But in the end they are voluntary and thus consensual pvp.
My problem is with the open world/non-consensual pvp. Where he has the choice and I have none, I must submit to his play style with no regard to the choice I have made to just chop down a few trees to feed my campfire.
As I said before, idm the pvp. I personally mind the competition about everything.
But this is a thing that can still be changed.
Sorry, what exactly are you hoping is changed?
Not necessarily changed but rather created with proper nuances.
I can understand, that you need to compete over some resources (like boss drops etc) to make PvP feel rewarding for many people (not me, I take pride in my victories and performance). But, it's obnoxious to me, that everything that is grinding (which is boring) can also be contested (EXP, mob loot, resources, etc). Or that there will be competition for it.
As I said before, idm the pvp. I personally mind the competition about everything.
But this is a thing that can still be changed.
Sorry, what exactly are you hoping is changed?
Not necessarily changed but rather created with proper nuances.
I can understand, that you need to compete over some resources (like boss drops etc) to make PvP feel rewarding for many people (not me, I take pride in my victories and performance). But, it's obnoxious to me, that everything that is grinding (which is boring) can also be contested (EXP, mob loot, resources, etc). Or that there will be competition for it.
Ah. Okay.
Well, I don't see that changing as it's the foundation of the game not just mechanically but also the philosophy.
I respect your opinion though and hope you're still able to enjoy the game regardless. I'm confident you will, I think the systems in place will encourage a lot of co-operation, to overcome these difficulties.
As I said before, idm the pvp. I personally mind the competition about everything.
But this is a thing that can still be changed.
Sorry, what exactly are you hoping is changed?
Not necessarily changed but rather created with proper nuances.
I can understand, that you need to compete over some resources (like boss drops etc) to make PvP feel rewarding for many people (not me, I take pride in my victories and performance). But, it's obnoxious to me, that everything that is grinding (which is boring) can also be contested (EXP, mob loot, resources, etc). Or that there will be competition for it.
Ah. Okay.
Well, I don't see that changing as it's the foundation of the game not just mechanically but also the philosophy.
I respect your opinion though and hope you're still able to enjoy the game regardless. I'm confident you will, I think the systems in place will encourage a lot of co-operation, to overcome these difficulties.
Oh, I will, if the game itself holds what it promisses. Just a minor criticism of mine.
Why people keep repeating that the "Caravan system" is made out from archeage, when in reality those are fundamentally different features. The Caravan system in Ashes is much closer to the System from Silk road, where you could start up a transport caravan, hire up protectors for gold, and get ambushed by attackers while delivering from Point a to Point b.
And just like that, you dont have to take a part in any of that if you dont like it, no one is forcing you to run caravans, no one is forcing you to attack or defend one, and if it "auto-flags" you, which i am not sure about, since there was an info that when you enter the caravan zone of influence, you have a pop-up to "attack" "defend" or "ignore", so if it actually force-flags you, just step away a few meters from your grinding zones and let it pass without any forced actions.
I dont see whats the whole issue is built around, just another meaningless outcry to "remove forced pvp because its bad".
People who haven't backed can post on these forums?
That's different to what I'm used to. Maybe only backers should be able to post, to prevent all these toxic threads from popping up constantly.
the problem with that is that people who have learned about the game, but are confused, can talk without paying money.
Why people keep repeating that the "Caravan system" is made out from archeage, when in reality those are fundamentally different features. The Caravan system in Ashes is much closer to the System from Silk road, where you could start up a transport caravan, hire up protectors for gold, and get ambushed by attackers while delivering from Point a to Point b.
And just like that, you dont have to take a part in any of that if you dont like it, no one is forcing you to run caravans, no one is forcing you to attack or defend one, and if it "auto-flags" you, which i am not sure about, since there was an info that when you enter the caravan zone of influence, you have a pop-up to "attack" "defend" or "ignore", so if it actually force-flags you, just step away a few meters from your grinding zones and let it pass without any forced actions.
I dont see whats the whole issue is built around, just another meaningless outcry to "remove forced pvp because its bad".
People who haven't backed can post on these forums?
That's different to what I'm used to. Maybe only backers should be able to post, to prevent all these toxic threads from popping up constantly.
the problem with that is that people who have learned about the game, but are confused, can talk without paying money.
That's a good point. If the forum were restricted to only backers creating and replying to threads, I would strongly advocate for a separate forum where anyone can ask and answer questions that new or aspiring members of the community might have.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2020
L2 was a PvX game but there were players & clans that chose to be either mostly or fully PvE and successfully managed to largely avoid nearly all conflict and peacefully co-exist.
Even for the hardcore PvP`er they are still likely to have to PvE to level and play the market so can`t be out PvP`in all the time.
I am certain with the model being closely followed, there will be a reasonable ability to pve in peace should you choose.
But I imagine that is after the mechanics are learned by players, the server has developed a little so there are felt consequences.. when players are new, there is little to lose.
Some people seems to forget the essence and the origin of RPG which is role playing in an fantasious world that still holds real concepts like the possibility of attacking someone else playing with you for benefit or for the sake of it.
Without open world PvP any MMORPG loses a hell lot of its immersion, sense of danger and competitivity.
Some people seems to forget the essence and the origin of RPG which is role playing in an fantasious world that still holds real concepts like the possibility of attacking someone else playing with you for benefit or for the sake of it.
Without open world PvP any MMORPG loses a hell lot of its immersion, sense of danger and competitivity.
I am pretty sure you dont even have to encounter any forced pvp's(outside of node siege) if you play one of the branches available to you. Make a fortune on stocks, set up a recrafting workflow with a friend and sell ready-to-use items from scratch, provide the pvp'rs with the gear they will need, and all of a sudden you play a pvp game, where you dont have to pvp at all. Pay with the gold you earn to some highly geared players to protect your caravan as you move your valuable across, make contacts between nodes to establish a flow of resources back and forth for greater profits, contact other people like you on the other nodes to maybe setup a "protector guild" that will supply guards to your caravans.
As of right now, the possibilities to play the game while avoiding any pvp you might not like are just held back by your imagination. Remember that people that will grind mobs, raids and dungeons, and will spend a lot of their time seeking pvp's, probably wont have a lot of time invested into an actual economy, therfor there is a high chance that a good "civil" player that deals with professions, stocks, market, religions and etc will be richer than an avarage pvp'r, and will be able to pay a shiny coin to the said pvp'r to deal with his inconveniences.
You only have to talk on discord about the non wanted PvP and you will see a lot of the players there are going to go out of there way to grief other players, they admit it is what they are waiting for.
I have played on a PvP realm in WoW and there is always players who grief players lower levels in unfair fights. I can see abuse of the system in this game no matter what the design is.
I am pretty sure you dont even have to encounter any forced pvp's(outside of node siege) if you play one of the branches available to you. Make a fortune on stocks, set up a recrafting workflow with a friend and sell ready-to-use items from scratch, provide the pvp'rs with the gear they will need, and all of a sudden you play a pvp game, where you dont have to pvp at all. Pay with the gold you earn to some highly geared players to protect your caravan as you move your valuable across, make contacts between nodes to establish a flow of resources back and forth for greater profits, contact other people like you on the other nodes to maybe setup a "protector guild" that will supply guards to your caravans.
As of right now, the possibilities to play the game while avoiding any pvp you might not like are just held back by your imagination. Remember that people that will grind mobs, raids and dungeons, and will spend a lot of their time seeking pvp's, probably wont have a lot of time invested into an actual economy, therfor there is a high chance that a good "civil" player that deals with professions, stocks, market, religions and etc will be richer than an avarage pvp'r, and will be able to pay a shiny coin to the said pvp'r to deal with his inconveniences.
Pretty much.
You might have to leave town to level up though, at the very least ...
Oh, and people can still kill you in town if they really, really want to. But it will probably suck for them a lot more than for you.
Don't forget guild wars too, in which case I think the guards won't involve themselves .. Maybe?
You have to understand, that the actual "griefers" - what a dumb term for modern mmos, was nonexistant back in 2003 - are a minority, a really-really small fraction of the pvp player base, and those will be eliminated pretty quickly, because one death, and you are practically out of business, because you will probably lose a portion of your gear you were using to pk, you will be denied node services to keep going(not sure if repair is denied, but supplement shop and etc for sure), you will be hunted down by guards and bounty hunters, and practically other players.
You can always say that:
- What if the PK is a max lvl character with top tier gear hunting lvl 10 people, well guess what, if you spread aa word about such an occurance, you will have tens of high lvl players hunting him in no time, to have a chance to obtain a portion of his top tier gear for basically no work and in no time.
- What if there is a whole guild denying play ground? Thats a part of the game, a rogue-like guilds are a part of it, and it would be dumb calling them out because they kill everything on sight, because they just chose the "dark side", they fully invested their human and game resources into going PK, and on the other side fully denied them selves other aspects that are not available to PK.
- What if i am just peacefuly gathering flowers and i get backstabbed, thats not fair, isnt it? WRONG, thats perfectly fine and fair, you go out to get resources, be ready to get ambushed for those resources, the rarer/more valuable the resource is, more cautios you need to be. No one is going to PK you for a chunk of iron ore, its just not worth it, but be prepared to have a mithril mine denied from you by a group of players for example, because it might be a rare and unique resource.
Another thing you have to remember, is that most of the players have other things to do, i would prefer to spend my free-pvp system on contesting world bosses, profitable grind spots and resources, ambushing conflicting node's caravan. I would not invest my play time into mindlessly and profitlessly hunting people 30 lvls below me, because it is what it is - it yilds no profits, and i guarantee you, that 98% of people that want a PvX game, with non-consentual pvp have the same mind set, and same plans. The last thing you want is "dps racing" a world boss, because there is no way to contest it, while with PvX you can just go and wipe the current raid, and kill the boss for your self.
Hope that its not too much of a wall of text, sorry, just couldnt stop my mind flow.
I am pretty sure you dont even have to encounter any forced pvp's(outside of node siege) if you play one of the branches available to you. Make a fortune on stocks, set up a recrafting workflow with a friend and sell ready-to-use items from scratch, provide the pvp'rs with the gear they will need, and all of a sudden you play a pvp game, where you dont have to pvp at all. Pay with the gold you earn to some highly geared players to protect your caravan as you move your valuable across, make contacts between nodes to establish a flow of resources back and forth for greater profits, contact other people like you on the other nodes to maybe setup a "protector guild" that will supply guards to your caravans.
As of right now, the possibilities to play the game while avoiding any pvp you might not like are just held back by your imagination. Remember that people that will grind mobs, raids and dungeons, and will spend a lot of their time seeking pvp's, probably wont have a lot of time invested into an actual economy, therfor there is a high chance that a good "civil" player that deals with professions, stocks, market, religions and etc will be richer than an avarage pvp'r, and will be able to pay a shiny coin to the said pvp'r to deal with his inconveniences.
Pretty much.
You might have to leave town to level up though, at the very least ...
Oh, and people can still kill you in town if they really, really want to. But it will probably suck for them a lot more than for you.
Don't forget guild wars too, in which case I think the guards won't involve themselves .. Maybe?
From what i understood you can lvl up relatively close to the node, where the chance of being pk'd is lower, but also the profit is lower, thats up to you... Risk vs Reward.
The guild factor goes against the "non-pvp" mind set, just dont declare war, or dont join guilds that are in war/aim for pvp.
The city one is exactly what you said, a major inconvenience to the PK more than it is to you, since you just respawn and go back with a normal death penalty, while the PK will not only suffer a heavy death penalty guaranteed, but also might lose a portion of his posessions... Beyond me how hard you have to annoy someone to trigger them so much to commit such an action...
The game isnt even out yet. There is still a LOT of room for change. If the corruption system turns out to be abused by griefers, the developers will adjust it accordingly. They listen to community feedback. No one likes being griefed by higher level players so you're not alone. Steven doesn't want to force pvp. He just wants to create some soft friction in the world, that's all.
^This. That's why community feedback is important. It's a bridge between AoC team and players.
Comments
You actually did sign up for non-consensual PvP.
Its been known since the kickstarter that there would be a flagging system and open world PvP.
Also, its a nice opinion to have, but they aren't setting themselves up for failure. The majority of people are ok with the flagging system, the gankers want a few things changed.
If Ashes doesn't work out, there is always Pantheon.
And this is why Steven has Said Ashes won't be for everyone.
If the small groups of people are needed to do these caravans do they come with some sort of NPC guards as well, so there has to be a threshold of people attaching to defeat the caravan? If it’s just who ever is sending it then it’s like just throwing around a loot bag on the floor to another location hoping people won’t take it..
If it’s Only required for large groups of people, like guilds etc, I don’t really see a problem..
Virtue is the only good.
if it wasnt obvious this guy is just an anti PvPer. Chances are he didnt even know the game existed until a day or so ago. He didnt back the game. All that happened is he watched a video of the next possible big MMO and decided he wanted to play it. But not that he wanted to play the devs version. No he is an anti PvPer. He could give two shits that the devs want PvX or you or I do or anyone else. As far as this guy is concerned if you want PvP go play call of duty. You cant reason with it. You cant explain anything to it. It gives 0 shits. All you can do is make sure that these kids dont come across as the majority that they like to.
That's different to what I'm used to. Maybe only backers should be able to post, to prevent all these toxic threads from popping up constantly.
I like how you throw in the early backer comment as if it makes your opinion more relevant than the next haha. Silly.
no sadly your moms credit card cant help you in the forums.
Excuse me?
Are you saying you don't trust the devs to build the game you want? Are you saying that if they don't make the game exactly the way you want that you will quit the game?
Suggest changes that you want and back it up with good reasons why.
Dont clutch your pearls just re read the post.
wat
My problem is with the open world/non-consensual pvp. Where he has the choice and I have none, I must submit to his play style with no regard to the choice I have made to just chop down a few trees to feed my campfire.
That is the nature of a PvX game.
But this is a thing that can still be changed.
Sorry, what exactly are you hoping is changed?
Not necessarily changed but rather created with proper nuances.
I can understand, that you need to compete over some resources (like boss drops etc) to make PvP feel rewarding for many people (not me, I take pride in my victories and performance). But, it's obnoxious to me, that everything that is grinding (which is boring) can also be contested (EXP, mob loot, resources, etc). Or that there will be competition for it.
Ah. Okay.
Well, I don't see that changing as it's the foundation of the game not just mechanically but also the philosophy.
I respect your opinion though and hope you're still able to enjoy the game regardless. I'm confident you will, I think the systems in place will encourage a lot of co-operation, to overcome these difficulties.
Oh, I will, if the game itself holds what it promisses. Just a minor criticism of mine.
the problem with that is that people who have learned about the game, but are confused, can talk without paying money.
https://knightsofember.com/forums/members/winner909098.54
That's a good point. If the forum were restricted to only backers creating and replying to threads, I would strongly advocate for a separate forum where anyone can ask and answer questions that new or aspiring members of the community might have.
Even for the hardcore PvP`er they are still likely to have to PvE to level and play the market so can`t be out PvP`in all the time.
I am certain with the model being closely followed, there will be a reasonable ability to pve in peace should you choose.
But I imagine that is after the mechanics are learned by players, the server has developed a little so there are felt consequences.. when players are new, there is little to lose.
Without open world PvP any MMORPG loses a hell lot of its immersion, sense of danger and competitivity.
Aren't we all sinners?
Exaaaactly.
As of right now, the possibilities to play the game while avoiding any pvp you might not like are just held back by your imagination. Remember that people that will grind mobs, raids and dungeons, and will spend a lot of their time seeking pvp's, probably wont have a lot of time invested into an actual economy, therfor there is a high chance that a good "civil" player that deals with professions, stocks, market, religions and etc will be richer than an avarage pvp'r, and will be able to pay a shiny coin to the said pvp'r to deal with his inconveniences.
I have played on a PvP realm in WoW and there is always players who grief players lower levels in unfair fights. I can see abuse of the system in this game no matter what the design is.
Pretty much.
You might have to leave town to level up though, at the very least ...
Oh, and people can still kill you in town if they really, really want to. But it will probably suck for them a lot more than for you.
Don't forget guild wars too, in which case I think the guards won't involve themselves .. Maybe?
You can always say that:
- What if the PK is a max lvl character with top tier gear hunting lvl 10 people, well guess what, if you spread aa word about such an occurance, you will have tens of high lvl players hunting him in no time, to have a chance to obtain a portion of his top tier gear for basically no work and in no time.
- What if there is a whole guild denying play ground? Thats a part of the game, a rogue-like guilds are a part of it, and it would be dumb calling them out because they kill everything on sight, because they just chose the "dark side", they fully invested their human and game resources into going PK, and on the other side fully denied them selves other aspects that are not available to PK.
- What if i am just peacefuly gathering flowers and i get backstabbed, thats not fair, isnt it? WRONG, thats perfectly fine and fair, you go out to get resources, be ready to get ambushed for those resources, the rarer/more valuable the resource is, more cautios you need to be. No one is going to PK you for a chunk of iron ore, its just not worth it, but be prepared to have a mithril mine denied from you by a group of players for example, because it might be a rare and unique resource.
Another thing you have to remember, is that most of the players have other things to do, i would prefer to spend my free-pvp system on contesting world bosses, profitable grind spots and resources, ambushing conflicting node's caravan. I would not invest my play time into mindlessly and profitlessly hunting people 30 lvls below me, because it is what it is - it yilds no profits, and i guarantee you, that 98% of people that want a PvX game, with non-consentual pvp have the same mind set, and same plans. The last thing you want is "dps racing" a world boss, because there is no way to contest it, while with PvX you can just go and wipe the current raid, and kill the boss for your self.
Hope that its not too much of a wall of text, sorry, just couldnt stop my mind flow.
From what i understood you can lvl up relatively close to the node, where the chance of being pk'd is lower, but also the profit is lower, thats up to you... Risk vs Reward.
The guild factor goes against the "non-pvp" mind set, just dont declare war, or dont join guilds that are in war/aim for pvp.
The city one is exactly what you said, a major inconvenience to the PK more than it is to you, since you just respawn and go back with a normal death penalty, while the PK will not only suffer a heavy death penalty guaranteed, but also might lose a portion of his posessions... Beyond me how hard you have to annoy someone to trigger them so much to commit such an action...
But those are just my points of view.