Caravans are consensual, you dont have to take part at all, I also think alot of you guys are overestimating just how many players are going to be ganking everyone they see, the risk of losing your gear will far outweigh the benefit of ganking for no reason.
Its a big choice to make to become a pk, and ppl who take it lightly are more than likely going to regret that choice as there will be other people on the opposite end of the spectrum who want to protect and be the good guys, it all adds to the game/choices which is only a good thing.
It's the perfect type of player friction. I'm gonna be the good guy if I can. Protecting noobs and Caravans. But you can be damn sure that I'll bash your face in if you steal my flowers infront of me.
I understand some people's concern about the caravan system. I get that suddenly being flagged for PvP and having to deal with the potential harassment can be an annoyance.
But this has huge potential to be diverse and a main activity to create amazing memories. Coming from the grindy silkroad online who had a similar system in place (trader, Hunter, thief's) created some of the most fond memories I have of the game. The beef you would get into and the large scale fights were amazingly fun.
Do NOT forget the game isn't soley based on the wish for a pvp/ pvx based game. It's based about the community. Think of WoW classic and BC days. The sudden big scale open world PvP situations is what people miss about old wow. The friends they made and the social aspect is what they miss about wow.
I mean. Dedicating yourself of creating a clan who's sole purpose it is to protect the innocent bY helping them with trade runs. And creating a bounty Hunter division for those pk griefers will be absolutely amazing. Like minded people will join your guild to help you in that endevor. Same goes for the other side. We will all be able to make a name for ourself in ways that hasn't been possible for a long time now.
It's great to criticize and voice your concerns about a system but while doing so don't forget the big picture and the possibilities that come with that.
I for one have been hardly this hyped for a game and I got extremely high hopes for it. This is torture to wait for the release!
Just feedback from someone who backed you early. I never signed up for non-consensual PvP griefing. I never signed up for "caravan PvP". How on Earth could you be repeating these fundamental mistakes from earlier MMOs? The caravan PvP system in ArcheAge, for example, drove thousands of us away (or kept us away in the first place). And the various karma/corruption/etc. systems to somehow limit non-consensual open world griefing? It NEVER works. It is ALWAYS gamed by certain players. It RUINS the experience of PvE players.
No thanks. It's your game, you can do what you want, but I'm out. And you are setting yourself up to fail in the marketplace.
Pretty sure caravans and the associated mechanics were in the game from the KS days. It was at least pretty clear to me from day one that "caravan pvp" was going to be a thing.
So if you weren't paying attention when you backed I think you've only yourself to blame. Not the developers.
Just feedback from someone who backed you early. I never signed up for non-consensual PvP griefing. I never signed up for "caravan PvP". How on Earth could you be repeating these fundamental mistakes from earlier MMOs? The caravan PvP system in ArcheAge, for example, drove thousands of us away (or kept us away in the first place). And the various karma/corruption/etc. systems to somehow limit non-consensual open world griefing? It NEVER works. It is ALWAYS gamed by certain players. It RUINS the experience of PvE players.
No thanks. It's your game, you can do what you want, but I'm out. And you are setting yourself up to fail in the marketplace.
I wouldn't give up on the game just yet. Not over something like this. I understand your concern--trust me. I enjoy being able to relax when I PvE without any worry of being attacked or griefed. I hated that element of UO (and LoA), but those were full loot games. As I understand it, being ganked in this game will not really impact you greatly since you lose nothing but some time when you're ganked, and I doubt it will happen often since there is no real gain for the ganker (typically). I see this being most prevalent in open world dungeons where people decide they want to fight over a camp spot or some such.
If you haven't experienced the game, I would wait and judge it first hand. I, too, hope griefing is not a thing in this game. But some world PvP (like Azgalor in WoW back in the day) really can be pretty fun for everyone involved. It was world pvp, no loot. There was definitely some griefing, but there were ways to deal with that, too.
Don't give up yet! You might find yourself enjoying some good fights and some sweet, sweet revenge on bad guys.
I think that for people opposed to any level of PVP, this game is just fundamentally not suited to the experience you're looking for. Every level of progression in this game, starting from the nodes, to the economy, PVP has been integrated with it by design, and its fundamental to the dynamic nature and story of the game.
This isn't new information; Steven and Intrepid have been extremely clear that AoC and Verra are an evolving story driven by player interaction and player conflict. If that isn't something that you're excited about, then there are a number of MMO's on the market that will completely separate you from anything like PVP and let you enjoy the full extent of their content.
I played WoW for more than 10 years, enjoying progression and story and never taking part in PVP outside of battlegrounds or the occasional city raid. With Ashes though, I can honestly say that I'm excited to experience PVP in a way that feels meaningful. That changes something for me as a player, and is connected to my experience of the world instead of being compartmentalised and limited.
If the thought of having new experiences, outside of what you explicitly intended isn't an exciting prospect to you... If you're not looking at these systems and thinking to yourself, "Wow, I'm going to have a great time fighting off bandits and pirates in something other than a scripted event that's designed to let me win!", then really, I think you're in the wrong game.
If all you want is a carefully curated PVE game, that's great. I love PVE experiences too. But that's not what this is billed as. Risk and reward is what Ashes is about.
I've never really been big on PVP myself, but even as a primarily PVE focused player, I'm excited about caravans. I'm excited about node and castle sieges. I'm excited about being able to take out griefers or botters when I see them. I'm excited to hop on a ship with my guildmates and hit the seas looking for a fight.
I've never had a reason to care about PVP in my past MMO experiences. I do now.
tl;dr OP, I really don't think your complaint is valid. What you're asking for is fundamentally a different game.
I think that for people opposed to any level of PVP, this game is just fundamentally not suited to the experience you're looking for. Every level of progression in this game, starting from the nodes, to the economy, PVP has been integrated with it by design, and its fundamental to the dynamic nature and story of the game.
This isn't new information; Steven and Intrepid have been extremely clear that AoC and Verra are an evolving story driven by player interaction and player conflict. If that isn't something that you're excited about, then there are a number of MMO's on the market that will completely separate you from anything like PVP and let you enjoy the full extent of their content.
I played WoW for more than 10 years, enjoying progression and story and never taking part in PVP outside of battlegrounds or the occasional city raid. With Ashes though, I can honestly say that I'm excited to experience PVP in a way that feels meaningful. That changes something for me as a player, and is connected to my experience of the world instead of being compartmentalised and limited.
If the thought of having new experiences, outside of what you explicitly intended isn't an exciting prospect to you... If you're not looking at these systems and thinking to yourself, "Wow, I'm going to have a great time fighting off bandits and pirates in something other than a scripted event that's designed to let me win!", then really, I think you're in the wrong game.
If all you want is a carefully curated PVE game, that's great. I love PVE experiences too. But that's not what this is billed as. Risk and reward is what Ashes is about.
I've never really been big on PVP myself, but even as a primarily PVE focused player, I'm excited about caravans. I'm excited about node and castle sieges. I'm excited about being able to take out griefers or botters when I see them. I'm excited to hop on a ship with my guildmates and hit the seas looking for a fight.
I've never had a reason to care about PVP in my past MMO experiences. I do now.
tl;dr OP, I really don't think your complaint is valid. What you're asking for is fundamentally a different game.
That was well written and very clear. Thanks for taking the time.
Don't be a casual baby. If you don't want to PVP then don't do the caravan, or get some guildies/friends to help you. It's not hard to socialize, and PVPing IS a fundamental part of every MMO
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BirdieModerator, Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Open world PvP is something that should exist in EVERY MMORPG in my opinion. Why? Because you can't RP without it. I don't wanna be like *Birdie punched yokai in the nose*, I wanna be able to actually flag on you. It's also nice because when you find that sweet farming spot away from everyone else and you got all the mobs for yourself, you got no one to protect you from getting ganked. It's a risk you're willing to take. And there should be concequences (or else it's not a risk?). Stay in a populated area, be protected from PKers, go alone, get killed. Hire someone to protect you. ez
I heard the same glad-hand arguments in favor of PvPers in ArcheAge, in Black Desert, and in countless other MMOs by now. It just doesn't work. When you design a game with non-consensual PvP of any sort, griefing and exploits *always* happen. And there are a lot of potential players who want nothing to do with it.
I hear what you are saying. The system being proposed is similar to the Lineage 2 model. This largely worked.
There were occasionally players that abused the system, as there will be in an game. Those players ran large risks and some fell very hard when karma came around. Having "villans" in the game sometimes adds to the atmosphere, sometimes an annoyance.
But there were times that the system was useful, even for the most passive pve groups.
Take for example, you take 20-30min to assemble your party, you then take 20-30min to venture deep into a dungeon with the plan to XP for a few hours. Then 10min in, another group starts playing in the same spot. Do you keep playing together at half the potential the space will benefit. Do you suspend your playing until the group goes away, waiting 2-3hrs by which time most of your own party wants to log off. Do you engage in endless dialogue to no avail. Or do you decide as a team, after all else has failed, to kill them so you can keep playing?
How about the raid on a signifincant boss. Your groups have been fight for close to an hour and the boss is about to die and another group come in to take the kill and potentially all the loot.
How about the player that for what ever reason just come along to annoy you, killing every mob just as you were about to for the sport of the irate chat conversation they might elicit.
These are where I see the corruption system benefits even the most die hard PVE`er.
Just a thought
Or do you make high end dungeons an instance so that won’t be an issue at all
i always disagreed with adding instanced content with no other benefit than to let people dodge pvp.
nty.
pvp isnt griefing. fight back and die. even if all 8 of your team die, you killing 3-4 would stop the people that killed you from being able to effectively grind that location also.
dont want to fight? then thats on you. its not up to the system to protect you cos you want to dodge.
I heard the same glad-hand arguments in favor of PvPers in ArcheAge, in Black Desert, and in countless other MMOs by now. It just doesn't work. When you design a game with non-consensual PvP of any sort, griefing and exploits *always* happen. And there are a lot of potential players who want nothing to do with it.
I hear what you are saying. The system being proposed is similar to the Lineage 2 model. This largely worked.
There were occasionally players that abused the system, as there will be in an game. Those players ran large risks and some fell very hard when karma came around. Having "villans" in the game sometimes adds to the atmosphere, sometimes an annoyance.
But there were times that the system was useful, even for the most passive pve groups.
Take for example, you take 20-30min to assemble your party, you then take 20-30min to venture deep into a dungeon with the plan to XP for a few hours. Then 10min in, another group starts playing in the same spot. Do you keep playing together at half the potential the space will benefit. Do you suspend your playing until the group goes away, waiting 2-3hrs by which time most of your own party wants to log off. Do you engage in endless dialogue to no avail. Or do you decide as a team, after all else has failed, to kill them so you can keep playing?
How about the raid on a signifincant boss. Your groups have been fight for close to an hour and the boss is about to die and another group come in to take the kill and potentially all the loot.
How about the player that for what ever reason just come along to annoy you, killing every mob just as you were about to for the sport of the irate chat conversation they might elicit.
These are where I see the corruption system benefits even the most die hard PVE`er.
Just a thought
Or do you make high end dungeons an instance so that won’t be an issue at all
i always disagreed with adding instanced content with no other benefit than to let people dodge pvp.
nty.
pvp isnt griefing. fight back and die. even if all 8 of your team die, you killing 3-4 would stop the people that killed you from being able to effectively grind that location also.
dont want to fight? then thats on you. its not up to the system to protect you cos you want to dodge.
It not to let them dodge pvp as you can still guard the door...its to make actual pve completion possible without raiding at 3am
I heard the same glad-hand arguments in favor of PvPers in ArcheAge, in Black Desert, and in countless other MMOs by now. It just doesn't work. When you design a game with non-consensual PvP of any sort, griefing and exploits *always* happen. And there are a lot of potential players who want nothing to do with it.
I hear what you are saying. The system being proposed is similar to the Lineage 2 model. This largely worked.
There were occasionally players that abused the system, as there will be in an game. Those players ran large risks and some fell very hard when karma came around. Having "villans" in the game sometimes adds to the atmosphere, sometimes an annoyance.
But there were times that the system was useful, even for the most passive pve groups.
Take for example, you take 20-30min to assemble your party, you then take 20-30min to venture deep into a dungeon with the plan to XP for a few hours. Then 10min in, another group starts playing in the same spot. Do you keep playing together at half the potential the space will benefit. Do you suspend your playing until the group goes away, waiting 2-3hrs by which time most of your own party wants to log off. Do you engage in endless dialogue to no avail. Or do you decide as a team, after all else has failed, to kill them so you can keep playing?
How about the raid on a signifincant boss. Your groups have been fight for close to an hour and the boss is about to die and another group come in to take the kill and potentially all the loot.
How about the player that for what ever reason just come along to annoy you, killing every mob just as you were about to for the sport of the irate chat conversation they might elicit.
These are where I see the corruption system benefits even the most die hard PVE`er.
Just a thought
Or do you make high end dungeons an instance so that won’t be an issue at all
i always disagreed with adding instanced content with no other benefit than to let people dodge pvp.
nty.
pvp isnt griefing. fight back and die. even if all 8 of your team die, you killing 3-4 would stop the people that killed you from being able to effectively grind that location also.
dont want to fight? then thats on you. its not up to the system to protect you cos you want to dodge.
It not to let them dodge pvp as you can still guard the door...its to make actual pve completion possible without raiding at 3am
PvE completion will still be possible, unless you have spies, bad luck or frenemies. Most people won't know when a Raid plans to do a Raid. You might meet another Raid, you might not, just like some times you wipe and sometimes you don't. Farming Raids is a real issue, thankfully IS are putting things in place which will counter-act Farming Raids. What might not be possible is a PUG Raid, because everyone will know your plans and can then counter-act your plans.
Reading these threads I'm just glad I played EvE and learned to appreciate every aspect of player ruthlessness.
You have many options if you dislike the PvP aspect to it. Hire mercenaries, sell for less in closer nodes, use intel to avoid the main "bad guys", etc. etc.
Just use your brain a bit and don't expect everything (high profit without risk) to be handed to you.
Jesus Christ. If you don't want to occasionally be forced into a confrontation, don't play a damn MMO. Go find a nice little co-op based game, and stop ruining a great upcoming game for the rest of us!
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mrwafflesMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
As of me writing this the OP has just created their account, visited once to write this post, and has zero badges for backing the project. If you were an early adopter I'm not saying we need proof but this stance was mentioned in their early posts and is literally the main reason many backed the Kick Starter.
(ignore the rest if you don't want to read a paranoid nerds thoughts)
I don't post often and am a classic forum creep but I see posters like this on and off. They come out of the wood work when a video or famous streamer makes AOC blip on the MMO radar. I have a hard time buying into their "honest opinion". I think some times its just some person (or some competitor) trying to start some grief and not actually a member of the AOC community.
I just wonder whether crafters will need to participate in caravans to be effective and competitive in their trade, or will not need to depend on it. In the latter case this whole discussion is perhaps not relevant.
I just wonder whether crafters will need to participate in caravans to be effective and competitive in their trade, or will not need to depend on it. In the latter case this whole discussion is perhaps not relevant.
I could imagine something like dedicated trade guilds that just focus on the Caravan aspect. Giving the farmers on nodes better deals than what they would get locally but slightly less than doing the caravan themselves.
So someone like OP can sell their raw goods to them and have it shipped.
Crafter themselves should be able to settle down where their most used resource is located to have the cheapest access to raw goods.
Also, buying the material from a Caravan, while expensive, is also an option. You can sell the finished product for more anyway as the node/area you are in isn't home to the product and the resources it requires.
I heard the same glad-hand arguments in favor of PvPers in ArcheAge, in Black Desert, and in countless other MMOs by now. It just doesn't work. When you design a game with non-consensual PvP of any sort, griefing and exploits *always* happen. And there are a lot of potential players who want nothing to do with it.
BDO got ruined because people who wanted PvE only for a game that was 100% designed for PvP and 0 PvE content forced PvP changes that ruined the entire system. I dropped a 100$ on it to never play it once because of these changes that came right before the game launched, because people wanted to play a PvE game and complained on the forums in masses till it was changed. The mob mentality of remove PvP is toxic to a game that is designed with PvP in mind because it ruins mechanics already established in the game for pvp.
I know, where the complaint is coming from. Idm the caravan PvP, but I see the risk with the flagging system, too. For me personally it was a huge down turner to get constantly killed by better geared players whilest trying to farm for better gear in BDO and the game had an anti grief system in place aswell. I don't like the fact that you have to compete over resources all the way. Would it just be bosses or gatherable resources or EXP or loot, okay. But all together is always a pain in the arse. Especially, for players who just reached max lvl or the soft cap, but can still get easily farmed by more experienced players without any more punishment.
What is ironic, when PvE only players ruin a PvP game their single response is if you dont like it dont play. You took interest in a PvX game, dont ruin it for the people who took interest in a PvX game and want it to be a PvX game.
It's kinda funny to see how these 'intense' PvE players think that they their opinion MUST be heard by any means. It's like going to a pizza place and scream at the waiter saying that you DO NOT accept that pepperoni comes in your pepperoni pizza.
I'm not the person that says "if you don't want it, leave". Most of the time I'll try to reason with someone and come to an agreement of what is tolerable and what is not, so everyone can enjoy part of the game in a way. But this type of extremists players that says "change it now because I don't like it" are very difficult to have reasonable a discussion. If a company listen and accept this kind of feedback, it can end up pretty bad, like New World for example, in which they change the design of the game from full loot open world PvP to heavily focused endgame PvE content, and by doing it they delayed one more year so they can fix the game with all these player's demands.
That being said, from what I understand, although there is no way to 'trully' escape from PvP (like declining a duel), that means if a player really wants to attack you he can (as long as the environment allow it), I can see the corruption/anti-griefing system working well. From the information that is stated right now, looks like that griefing is very punishable and don't lasts for long. Theoretically, it can work. Let's see if in the other Alphas/Betas there are enough people to really test how it goes in the practice.
Comments
It's the perfect type of player friction. I'm gonna be the good guy if I can. Protecting noobs and Caravans. But you can be damn sure that I'll bash your face in if you steal my flowers infront of me.
But this has huge potential to be diverse and a main activity to create amazing memories. Coming from the grindy silkroad online who had a similar system in place (trader, Hunter, thief's) created some of the most fond memories I have of the game. The beef you would get into and the large scale fights were amazingly fun.
Do NOT forget the game isn't soley based on the wish for a pvp/ pvx based game. It's based about the community. Think of WoW classic and BC days. The sudden big scale open world PvP situations is what people miss about old wow. The friends they made and the social aspect is what they miss about wow.
I mean. Dedicating yourself of creating a clan who's sole purpose it is to protect the innocent bY helping them with trade runs. And creating a bounty Hunter division for those pk griefers will be absolutely amazing. Like minded people will join your guild to help you in that endevor. Same goes for the other side. We will all be able to make a name for ourself in ways that hasn't been possible for a long time now.
It's great to criticize and voice your concerns about a system but while doing so don't forget the big picture and the possibilities that come with that.
I for one have been hardly this hyped for a game and I got extremely high hopes for it. This is torture to wait for the release!
Pretty sure caravans and the associated mechanics were in the game from the KS days. It was at least pretty clear to me from day one that "caravan pvp" was going to be a thing.
So if you weren't paying attention when you backed I think you've only yourself to blame. Not the developers.
I wouldn't give up on the game just yet. Not over something like this. I understand your concern--trust me. I enjoy being able to relax when I PvE without any worry of being attacked or griefed. I hated that element of UO (and LoA), but those were full loot games. As I understand it, being ganked in this game will not really impact you greatly since you lose nothing but some time when you're ganked, and I doubt it will happen often since there is no real gain for the ganker (typically). I see this being most prevalent in open world dungeons where people decide they want to fight over a camp spot or some such.
If you haven't experienced the game, I would wait and judge it first hand. I, too, hope griefing is not a thing in this game. But some world PvP (like Azgalor in WoW back in the day) really can be pretty fun for everyone involved. It was world pvp, no loot. There was definitely some griefing, but there were ways to deal with that, too.
Don't give up yet! You might find yourself enjoying some good fights and some sweet, sweet revenge on bad guys.
This isn't new information; Steven and Intrepid have been extremely clear that AoC and Verra are an evolving story driven by player interaction and player conflict. If that isn't something that you're excited about, then there are a number of MMO's on the market that will completely separate you from anything like PVP and let you enjoy the full extent of their content.
I played WoW for more than 10 years, enjoying progression and story and never taking part in PVP outside of battlegrounds or the occasional city raid. With Ashes though, I can honestly say that I'm excited to experience PVP in a way that feels meaningful. That changes something for me as a player, and is connected to my experience of the world instead of being compartmentalised and limited.
If the thought of having new experiences, outside of what you explicitly intended isn't an exciting prospect to you... If you're not looking at these systems and thinking to yourself, "Wow, I'm going to have a great time fighting off bandits and pirates in something other than a scripted event that's designed to let me win!", then really, I think you're in the wrong game.
If all you want is a carefully curated PVE game, that's great. I love PVE experiences too. But that's not what this is billed as. Risk and reward is what Ashes is about.
I've never really been big on PVP myself, but even as a primarily PVE focused player, I'm excited about caravans. I'm excited about node and castle sieges. I'm excited about being able to take out griefers or botters when I see them. I'm excited to hop on a ship with my guildmates and hit the seas looking for a fight.
I've never had a reason to care about PVP in my past MMO experiences. I do now.
tl;dr OP, I really don't think your complaint is valid. What you're asking for is fundamentally a different game.
That was well written and very clear. Thanks for taking the time.
i always disagreed with adding instanced content with no other benefit than to let people dodge pvp.
nty.
pvp isnt griefing. fight back and die. even if all 8 of your team die, you killing 3-4 would stop the people that killed you from being able to effectively grind that location also.
dont want to fight? then thats on you. its not up to the system to protect you cos you want to dodge.
It not to let them dodge pvp as you can still guard the door...its to make actual pve completion possible without raiding at 3am
It will be possible.
You have many options if you dislike the PvP aspect to it. Hire mercenaries, sell for less in closer nodes, use intel to avoid the main "bad guys", etc. etc.
Just use your brain a bit and don't expect everything (high profit without risk) to be handed to you.
(ignore the rest if you don't want to read a paranoid nerds thoughts)
I don't post often and am a classic forum creep but I see posters like this on and off. They come out of the wood work when a video or famous streamer makes AOC blip on the MMO radar. I have a hard time buying into their "honest opinion". I think some times its just some person (or some competitor) trying to start some grief and not actually a member of the AOC community.
I could imagine something like dedicated trade guilds that just focus on the Caravan aspect. Giving the farmers on nodes better deals than what they would get locally but slightly less than doing the caravan themselves.
So someone like OP can sell their raw goods to them and have it shipped.
Crafter themselves should be able to settle down where their most used resource is located to have the cheapest access to raw goods.
Also, buying the material from a Caravan, while expensive, is also an option. You can sell the finished product for more anyway as the node/area you are in isn't home to the product and the resources it requires.
What is ironic, when PvE only players ruin a PvP game their single response is if you dont like it dont play. You took interest in a PvX game, dont ruin it for the people who took interest in a PvX game and want it to be a PvX game.
I'm not the person that says "if you don't want it, leave". Most of the time I'll try to reason with someone and come to an agreement of what is tolerable and what is not, so everyone can enjoy part of the game in a way. But this type of extremists players that says "change it now because I don't like it" are very difficult to have reasonable a discussion. If a company listen and accept this kind of feedback, it can end up pretty bad, like New World for example, in which they change the design of the game from full loot open world PvP to heavily focused endgame PvE content, and by doing it they delayed one more year so they can fix the game with all these player's demands.
That being said, from what I understand, although there is no way to 'trully' escape from PvP (like declining a duel), that means if a player really wants to attack you he can (as long as the environment allow it), I can see the corruption/anti-griefing system working well. From the information that is stated right now, looks like that griefing is very punishable and don't lasts for long. Theoretically, it can work. Let's see if in the other Alphas/Betas there are enough people to really test how it goes in the practice.