Undead CanuckMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It has been said that there will be a 'comfortable amount' of alts allowed. You want to play a different class? Play an alt. I am hoping we can have at least 8 characters. I want to play one of each archetype.
If you are allowed to change your primary archetype, your advancement should be reset to the beginning (i.e. the same as creating an alt). Just because other games allow you to level up with one class and then switch to a different one, does not mean that Ashes should.
And you may want to check out the Wiki: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
It has lots of wonderful information there, and people don't have to create thread #84687951 of a subject.
As a veteran Dungeon Master (Pathfinder, 5e, etc.) I've always been privy to the idea of allowing players the flexibility to re-roll their character class and even some role-playing games like Pathfinder 1e have rules for letting players change their class over time through retraining.
It's an interesting concept and attractive on the surface; allowing a player to re-imagine their character's play style and gameplay while retaining their persona, their inventory and accomplishments without having to start from scratch. Generally this is easier done in a single player setting or small group as it usually doesn't have the potential to have a drastic impact on the game as a whole.
However it's something I wouldn't recommend in a massively-multiplayer setting. The assumption is that if it were a service that a player could take advantage of, it would be unwise to assume it would be used by a small minority of players who didn't think too hard about their primary class and want to try something else but don't want to start all over and wanna keep pace with their friends but just fill a different role or class niche.
The reality would be, however, that as the game evolves and develops, that a feature like this would be abused by a larger population of the game's player base to swap classes whenever a balance patch skews in favor of one class archetype over another. Worse if this was a paid service, would have AoC fall into the "Pay-to-Win" category where players can pay to be the best class for their role every so many months or weeks between patches.
The best prescription I can recommend is something akin to Warcraft's class trials. A short demonstration scenario where you get to play as a certain class at its end game to get a feel for its combat style, gameplay and rotations. We'll ultimately have to wait and see just how long it takes to get an appropriate feel for a class during the leveling process.
@Neurath
>FF14 allows classes to be changed on the fly
I'm not proposing being able to change on the fly. I recognise numerous issues with such a system and understand why a team would not want people to be able to do that.
@Aardvark
>The person saying its super easy and not time consuming to level them all is clearly just a troll
"Person has different opinion must be a troll" check
@crocos
>I'm personally of the opinion that being able to swap classes is unhealthy for the game.
How so? You stated its so but not elaborated why. I can definitely see a point if I was talking about Final Fantasy levels of class swapping, but I'm not, I definitely agree that level of freedom could and probably would be incredibly unhealthy, but how would a lengthy, pain in the ass questline to change your main class once every 6 months be a pain in the ass?
@Neurath
>The main issue is balance. If we code for 'Flavours of the month' and people can change their primary archetype, Guilds will exploit this in a PvX game. You would have no balance because the DPSers would always switch to the Highest DPS
Yes, which is why I suggested making it have a lockout time before you can swap again. I'm not against severely limiting the ability to reroll your main class, merely having it be an option. If I spend 2 months investing in a character, and decide I don't like the primary skill tree, I'd like the ability to change my mind on that character, as opposed to making a new one.
@Tsukasa
>I'd rather start over my adventurer level from zero + grind new gear + be unable to reroll for 1 year on my main than play an alt! BECAUSE MY MAIN IS MY IDENTITY!(surely this isn't my opinion alone. )
When the game is out, you will see the begging and quitting.
Exactly. I feel the same way. Maybe the other people here disagreeing are the types of people who never go by the same name in a game, but I do, my character is an extension of myself, if you were to force me to make a new one to change class, you're essentially having me "kill" that part of me
@CaptainChuck
>Your interest in your class shouldn't be based on whether the class is meta or not, rather on whether the class fits your playstyle and your identity or not. Just because a certain class is weak in a particular meta, doesn't mean that you should be able to reroll from that class to another.
Okay, I love archery. However I'm also an OCE player who often plays NA servers. This means I may find it too hard to manage the ping while playing an archery based class. If I spend 2 months trying to make it work, and feel I've been unable to and want to change to be a healer or a melee, what options do I have? Because my understanding is it's
1) Make a new character
And I'm not likely to do that, I'm more likely to quit on the spot instead.
>Also if they allow people to change their primary archetype, then you will have meta slaves. People that swap their classes, back and forth, depending on the meta. This is just an unhealthy thing to have in an MMORPG, as it just goes against the RPG element of MMOs.
Yes, which is why I would not at all be against a lockout from changing it again, which would heavily disincentivise that behaviour
@Aardvark
>You can change your primary class...they confimed you can level up an alt
I'm not willing to make a new character to play as a main. Never have in any game. I level and play alts periodically to try things out, but never do they exceed my mains capabilities. Even Diablo 3, where I have a Wizard, a Necro and a Demon Hunter, my wizard hasn't been touched in 2 years and my Necro has 40 hours of playtime compared to my Demon Hunters 300.
@Niraada
>If people swap primary archetypes every patch, there's a depth of knowledge that gets sacrificed as a result.
Yes, which is why, again, I'm all for a lockout from preventing people just swapping at a whim constantly. I'm not suggesting a way of changing your mainclass on a monthly basis, I'm suggesting a way of changing it once, maybe twice a year.
>I also think that a lack of identity would be a detriment to the game's social experience. As the community forms and grows, reputations of individuals within that community are tied into that sense of identity.
I'd like to agree with this, but for a different and directly opposing reason as you.
If I have been playing the game for 6 years, and decide I want to try something new, and make a new character to do so, no one will know who I am, I'd be a nobody. I might be able to provide players with plenty of assistance with how to play as or against the class I spent 6 years playing, yet it would have no weight because I'd be a nobody. By comparison, if I just changed my class, people would see me, see the time I have invested, and when I make statements or provide some help on playing a class I spent a long time on, it would have more weight, especially if they'd seen me around a lot as that class.
I agree that a lack of identity would be a detriment to the game's social experience, but I believe forcing people to make new characters if they wish to change their main class IS the source of that lack of identity.
It also doesn't help that I'm a rather indecisive person, making a decision that will LOCK me to that class is far far far harder for me than a decision which, while it's a pain in the fucking ASS to do, I CAN change my mind at a later date, without losing my identity I spent time investing in my main character.
@CaptainChuck
>We do NOT know how trading between alts is going to work in this game, or if it will even be allowed in the first place.
I believe Steven said somewhere that not much will be bound, so I'm assuming trading will exist.
>This means that ALL you have to do is figure out your right primary archetype, which shouldn't be a hard thing to do if you've ever played an MMO before.
I've played MMOs before. I've played a lot of games before. And in all of them, making a decision that hard locks my character in pretty much any way is incredibly hard for me to do.
In Archeage I was a Cloth mage, and had items to convert my gear to Leather. It took about 3-4 months of research, talking to people, and experiencing cloth mage for me to make a decision. Will I have 3-4 months to play each class, and speak with more experienced people to assist me in making a decision that will decide the rest of my gameplay? No, not really. And even if I did, chances of obtaining a name I care about after so long would be nigh impossible.
I understand trying to make the decision have consequences, and I'm not against making changing your primary class to be an EVEN MORE lengthy and painful process than just making an alt. I just want the option to exist.
If the goal of locking a character's primary archetype is to create long term decisions that have meaningful gameplay consequences then doesn't the ability to create alts with different primary archetypes circumvent these decisions just as much as switching does? With the correct restrictions (you have to level each primary archetype separately, can only swap in an inn at a stage three or higher city) what is the actual difference between allowing a single character to level multiple primary archetypes and allowing players to create alts? It seems as though if the devs really believed being able to switch primary archetypes/have multiple artisan skills would be bad for the game then they should restrict players to only one character per server.
I can concede, it would be nice not to have to relevel a toon in order to satiate urges. I do not know how much of a redevelopment it would need from a standard perspective. It isn't an inception plan and can't be done in Alpha 1 (Alpha 1 is ongoing). I don't know how in-depth such a change would require. I do not think it is a viable option at this time. It fundamentally changes the whole structure of Characters.
The reason I'm also against it is because I get tired of appearances and I like to create new characters. I do not know how much we can change character appearances across a lifespan either. We can state IS missed a trick with the limited approach but if the approach is limited it is limited for a reason. I still believe balance would be an issue if players can change the whole foundation of a character on the fly.
I am just baffled by the amount of people who think this is a good idea.
Why don't we just not have classes at all and just pick skills from a massive pool of abilities?
Is your character name your identity or that and what he can do? Are you John the mage? Or does your identity allow you to basically switch core concepts of your character whenever you feel like it and it helps you in-game?
@Undead Canuck
>If you are allowed to change your primary archetype, your advancement should be reset to the beginning (i.e. the same as creating an alt). Just because other games allow you to level up with one class and then switch to a different one, does not mean that Ashes should.
Yes, I agree. There's no point in any message I have posted here where I have disagreed with this much.
@Ljosalfar
>It's an interesting concept and attractive on the surface; allowing a player to re-imagine their character's play style and gameplay while retaining their persona, their inventory and accomplishments
Yes, this is basically the entire reason.
>However it's something I wouldn't recommend in a massively-multiplayer setting. The assumption is that if it were a service that a player could take advantage of, it would be unwise to assume it would be used by a small minority of players who didn't think too hard about their primary class and want to try something else but don't want to start all over and wanna keep pace with their friends but just fill a different role or class niche.
I don't think it'd only be used by a small niche if it were unrestricted, that's why I'm all for making it a huge pain to go through. Like I said, I wouldn't even mind if it was literally MORE hassle to reroll your main than just levelling an alt. Because, lets be real here for a moment. The same people who'd abuse a system to reroll your main, would also be the same people willing to invest in 8 characters, whichever was strongest at the time, like @matthewhills mentioned above me
>The reality would be, however, that as the game evolves and develops, that a feature like this would be abused by a larger population of the game's player base to swap classes whenever a balance patch skews in favor of one class archetype over another. Worse if this was a paid service, would have AoC fall into the "Pay-to-Win" category where players can pay to be the best class for their role every so many months or weeks between patches.
I agree it shouldn't be paid, 100%. I also believe people who'd just swap class depending on the balance would also just make an alt depending on the balance. The only way of preventing this completely would be 1 character per account, and no ability to reroll, but then you can just have a second account, so in reality you STILL haven't stopped it, and now it's arguably p2w.
And again, to reiterate, I'm all for making it a huge pain AND having a lockout preventing people from changing constantly.
@matthewhills
>If the goal of locking a character's primary archetype is to create long term decisions that have meaningful gameplay consequences then doesn't the ability to create alts with different primary archetypes circumvent these decisions just as much as switching does? With the correct restrictions (you have to level each primary archetype separately, can only swap in an inn at a stage three or higher city) what is the actual difference between allowing a single character to level multiple primary archetypes and allowing players to create alts? It seems as though if the devs really believed being able to switch primary archetypes/have multiple artisan skills would be bad for the game then they should restrict players to only one character per server.
^ Basically yes. Although I feel like "(you have to level each primary archetype separately, can only swap in an inn at a stage three or higher city)" is far too easy for what I'm suggesting, and also isn't as weighty. I'm talking more along the lines of when you swap, you're essentially level 1 again, just with all your accomplishments etc still there, and your inventory. Your gear has a level 20 requirement? You can't equip it. I'm not suggesting a free
@Neurath
>I don't know how in-depth such a change would require. I do not think it is a viable option at this time. It fundamentally changes the whole structure of Characters.
I don't think it'd take much compared to other systems in the game, but I could even accept it not being a feature at launch. If IS were to just say, right now, it will be a feature but may take a year after launch to be implemented, I'm okay with that, I can live with that. If I feel that strongly about changing class, I'd just wait until I had that option, either gritting my teeth and dealing with it, or by taking a break until I could.
I can concede, it would be nice not to have to relevel a toon in order to satiate urges. I do not know how much of a redevelopment it would need from a standard perspective. It isn't an inception plan and can't be done in Alpha 1 (Alpha 1 is ongoing). I don't know how in-depth such a change would require. I do not think it is a viable option at this time. It fundamentally changes the whole structure of Characters.
The reason I'm also against it is because I get tired of appearances and I like to create new characters. I do not know how much we can change character appearances across a lifespan either. We can state IS missed a trick with the limited approach but if the approach is limited it is limited for a reason. I still believe balance would be an issue if players can change the whole foundation of a character on the fly.
It's not viable at all. Having every primary class at your disposal at any time is a bad design idea. Everyone will be able to jump around and basically not care about anything class related because they can always switch. That's stupid and will hurt the game in the long run.
I am just baffled by the amount of people who think this is a good idea.
Why don't we just not have classes at all and just pick skills from a massive pool of abilities?
Is your character name your identity or that and what he can do? Are you John the mage? Or does your identity allow you to basically switch core concepts of your character whenever you feel like it and it helps you in-game?
This whole argument is a bit silly.
You clearly haven't read much I've said.
First, picking from a massive pool of abilities isn't even how games with free-changing classes operate, so that's a huge over-exaggeration of what is being discussed, at least here.
Secondly, " allow you to basically switch core concepts of your character whenever you feel like it" is behaviour I COMPLETELY understand not wanting to exist. I agree with that decision. It's why I support things like having a lockout before you could change again. The only part where I don't agree is NEVER being able to change it.
It's not viable at all. Having every primary class at your disposal at any time is a bad design idea. Everyone will be able to jump around and basically not care about anything class related because they can always switch. That's stupid and will hurt the game in the long run.
Again, you clearly haven't read anything in this thread. I do not WANT nor have I SUGGESTED or ASKED FOR being able to have every primary class at your disposal at any time. Not even CLOSE. In fact, literally allowing alts will allow having every primary class at your disposal more than what I've suggested here.
Takes 45 days to level, okay. So lets say you want to make an alt to reroll, that'd take you 45 days without help.
Do you believe taking 45 days to reroll your class, and being locked out from doing it again for 180 days. Would be any different, let alone easier?
I'm not a developer, but, to ask for a redesign of classes mechanics would be like asking for a change in Node Dynamics. The MMO has staple building blocks and the building blocks are expanded upon. It makes no sense to go back and redesign the Class building blocks. We haven't even seen all of the classes. I still think balance is king in terms of the classes in the game (I understand there will be group balance). I explained before that people following 'The Flavour of the Month' would have no balance. If one can change the staple of what one is then there is no staple. If this was a PvE title then as I've said before it would make more sense to be able to change everything. This is a PvX Title, every class will matter in Sieges and Raids. If everyone followed 'The Flavour of the Month' we'd be stuck in a situation where Sieges become unbalanced and Raids might not be viable.
This is why I explained the work load for changing the dynamics not in place from Inception would be so catastrophic. Every system relies on the classes. There is not a system that doesn't. Combat is one of the corest core systems you can have in an MMO. I understand that some would say Nodes or sieges become more of a core core system, but, if you don't have good, balanced combat, Nodes won't level and sieges would be so unbalanced people would be wiped by 'Flavours of the Month.'
I think the only way changing the primary should be allowed is if the character is reset to 0 on everything and the only things kept are the name and achievements. Anything more than that would help destroy the game.
@Neurath Possibly correct, but with my admittedly limited knowledge, assuming a decent enough codebase, it shouldn't be too hard to implement such a thing, but I may be wrong. It'd be nice to hear from Intrepid even if it was just "Yeah we like the idea but we didn't build the code in a way that would make it easy to implement, sorry "
@nibiru97 I don't think keeping inventory would break the game any more than someone making an alt, but I'd be willing to at least consider a full rebirthing type system like that if that's the route Intrepid wanted to take with it. I wouldn't be the biggest fan of going that route, but I'd appreciate it over nothing, and it would at the very least be a pretty big consideration
@Arya Ideally I would like there to be an equivalent amount of friction with regards to changing your primary archetype between having an alt and having access to multiple primary archetypes on a single character. As it stands the only restrictions around swapping your class freely is time (leveling the alt) and location (your alt will not always be in the same place in the world as your main) which is why I suggested the restrictions I did. You can already swap your primary archetype five hundred times a day if you want by swapping alts as frequently as you wish so I don't really see why it would be necessary to add additional time gates on top of that.
@phdmonster Again, if you think that your primary archetype should be a truly permanent decision (not necessarily saying it shouldn't) then you should also be against the ability to create alts. As it stands you can swap your primary archetype/artisan skill as frequently as you want by switching to different alts and the only way to change that is to restrict players to one character per server.
@Amel hope I see you posting about the ability to create multiple characters on the same server then. Multiple characters on the same server will allow you to swap your primary archetype/artisan skill as frequently as you want which, as you said, is the single worst idea you've ever heard.
@matthewhills How is having several character on the same server even remotely the same thing as being able to switch your primary class on one character?
Changing your primary class is the single worst idea ive ever heard.
Word
As Steven likes to play the "Risk vs. Reward"/"Decisions matter" card, i hope that it will not be possible.
The dependancy on other players would simply vanish because swapping would be the meta.
And having a meta that is obtainable through swapping your primary reduces your freedom. You're somewhat forced to meta if you want to find groups.
There's simply no need:
If you want to play all primarys, you can do so. Just alt a lot.
Coming up with "Identity" - yes you identify as a class. If you find out you're disliking your primary you can feel free to use your character-creator saves and re-roll with a slightly different name.
Just because "fluid-idetities" are todays flavour it should find it's way in AoC.
@Amel If I have a mage and a fighter on the same server and I log out of my mage and log in to my fighter I have just switched my primary archetype.
@Bakrem You literally explained in your comment that class swapping is already planned to be in the game, you just have to make alts. How does the ability to change a character's class destroy the game but playing multiple classes via different characters on the same server not destroy the game?
@matthewhills The reason that it is different is because you have to actually play that character and learn the skills of that character while lvling up. It's kind of like how it was bad that WoW made it so you can buy max lvl characters. People have no clue how to play their class. The lvling process is what teaches players as skills get layered into their character.
Changing your primary class is the single worst idea ive ever heard.
If we were discussing a freely changing system, like Final Fantasy, I could completely understand this position. But do you not agree that an alt would be almost identical as what I'm suggesting?
The dependancy on other players would simply vanish because swapping would be the meta.
And having a meta that is obtainable through swapping your primary reduces your freedom. You're somewhat forced to meta if you want to find groups.
There's simply no need:
If you want to play all primarys, you can do so. Just alt a lot.
Coming up with "Identity" - yes you identify as a class. If you find out you're disliking your primary you can feel free to use your character-creator saves and re-roll with a slightly different name.
Just because "fluid-idetities" are todays flavour it should find it's way in AoC.
Dependancy would not vanish, as you would not be able to change constantly. You're also forced into that meta anyway. Lets say that a meta 8 man is 1 of each class. Well, "Sorry there Mr Fighter, we have a Fighter already, find another group." will be a thing, and that's not going to be much different if primary class changes existed, as all it'd be is "We already have a fighter, pick another class or find another group."
Well, my suggestion would make the "pick another class" part fucking moronic, so you're left with "Find another group" which is exactly the same outcome, so I do not believe that's a great argument.
"Just alt a lot" ignores what a couple people have said here. We don't want to. We'd rather invest MORE time in rerolling our main than making a new character. We also don't wan't slightly different names. We want our name, our identity. Sure a "slightly different" name would be instantly recognisable, but it would still feel wrong for many of us.
I don't suggest a fluid changing of classes. I understand issues people have with it, and I see issues with developing with such systems in mind, I merely suggest ways of allowing it to be possible to change it, even if that possibility ends up being harder and more time consuming than just making and levelling/gearing an alt. I even mentioned not even being against just fully rebirthing your character, keeping only Achievements and name. I don't think that extreme is necessary, but I'd be accepting of it if that's the route IS went. Do you believe that that would be any different at all to making an alt?
@matthewhills If you have a mage and a fighter on the same server then you invested the time to level 2 characters instead of just 1.
Okay if I spend time levelling a mage, and want to change to fighter, and get reset to level 0 keeping only my name, inventory and achievements, and level it back up to the same degree, have I not spent just as long of an investment as levelling 2 characters?
@nibiru97@Amel Do you think it would be possible to create a system where each primary archetype has its own experience bar? (i.e. I could be a max level mage but only a level 15 fighter so that changing your primary archetype and leveling an alt required exactly the same amount of time) If you had to level each archetype separately what would be the difference between being able to switch and making an alt?
@nibiru97@Amel Do you think it would be possible to create a system where each primary archetype has its own experience bar? (i.e. I could be a max level mage but only a level 15 fighter so that changing your primary archetype and leveling an alt required exactly the same amount of time) If you had to level each archetype separately what would be the difference between being able to switch and making an alt?
Personally I don't think such a thing should exist as thats kind of how Final Fantasy does it, and that has a lot of issues that already have been mentioned. That said, if swapping to your Fighter to level it up dropped your Mage to level 1, I think that's something that would be much more agreeable to many, while still serving the purposes I made this post about, while still disincentivising swapping due to meta/balance changes
@Arya I haven't actually heard what the problems would be since that is exactly how swapping to an alt would work; if I spend the time to have a max level fighter and a max level mage alt then I can now swap freely between the two primary archetypes with no cooldown without deleveling either of the archetypes.
@Arya I disagree with your framing it as 'forcing people to create a new character'. If someone wants to experience the game in a different way, that's a choice. It's part of their own agency. That choice should have an appropriate level of burden attached to it.
To be clear, I'm defining 'appropriate level of burden' here as roughly the effort it requires one to level up the desired archetype. Why? Because if you want to have a max level character of a given archetype, you should work for it. Not just have it handed to you.
Personally, I disagree with the 'you deserve this just for showing up' mentality that has plagued MMO's in recent years.
I'd further add, in older games, we could field multiple raids - some Main Raids, some Alt Raids, but all Workable Raids. If it was a case back then of everyone just swapping the main characters, then we would only have been able to do Main Raids and not Alt Raids, which would have been far less entertaining at the time.
@Arya I haven't actually heard what the problems would be since that is exactly how swapping to an alt would work; if I spend the time to have a max level fighter and a max level mage alt then I can now swap freely between the two primary archetypes with no cooldown without deleveling either of the archetypes.
People would swap for flavour of the month, it would formulate a kinda stale meta for pvp as everyone who matters would have all their classes maxed out, meaning they'd organise stupidly efficient meta groups making it hard to deal with, people would lack a lot of experience in their class.
It'd also be a nightmare to balance around, pve content would result in people forcing you to swap class for content, etc etc
@Arya
[/quote]
Okay if I spend time levelling a mage, and want to change to fighter, and get reset to level 0 keeping only my name, inventory and achievements, and level it back up to the same degree, have I not spent just as long of an investment as levelling 2 characters?
[/quote]
its not the same because there is also a lot of side progression on a character, your religon, the societies you joined, your artisan skill. If you wanted to switch primary class on the same character all of those would have to go as well. If you wanted to switch your primary archetype like you suggest, then id be fine with it if the ONLY thing you kept was your name. EVERYTHING else is lost.
Okay if I spend time levelling a mage, and want to change to fighter, and get reset to level 0 keeping only my name, inventory and achievements, and level it back up to the same degree, have I not spent just as long of an investment as levelling 2 characters?
[/quote]
its not the same because there is also a lot of side progression on a character, your religon, the societies you joined, your artisan skill. If you wanted to switch primary class on the same character all of those would have to go as well. If you wanted to switch your primary archetype like you suggest, then id be fine with it if the ONLY thing you kept was your name. EVERYTHING else is lost.[/quote]
Inventory would definitely have to go. Citizenship, any religious augments earned, and any currency and resources in the warehouse too. Mounts, houses, etc.
I'm ok with someone keeping their freehold though. After all, that's account wide anyway.
Comments
If you are allowed to change your primary archetype, your advancement should be reset to the beginning (i.e. the same as creating an alt). Just because other games allow you to level up with one class and then switch to a different one, does not mean that Ashes should.
And you may want to check out the Wiki: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
It has lots of wonderful information there, and people don't have to create thread #84687951 of a subject.
It's an interesting concept and attractive on the surface; allowing a player to re-imagine their character's play style and gameplay while retaining their persona, their inventory and accomplishments without having to start from scratch. Generally this is easier done in a single player setting or small group as it usually doesn't have the potential to have a drastic impact on the game as a whole.
However it's something I wouldn't recommend in a massively-multiplayer setting. The assumption is that if it were a service that a player could take advantage of, it would be unwise to assume it would be used by a small minority of players who didn't think too hard about their primary class and want to try something else but don't want to start all over and wanna keep pace with their friends but just fill a different role or class niche.
The reality would be, however, that as the game evolves and develops, that a feature like this would be abused by a larger population of the game's player base to swap classes whenever a balance patch skews in favor of one class archetype over another. Worse if this was a paid service, would have AoC fall into the "Pay-to-Win" category where players can pay to be the best class for their role every so many months or weeks between patches.
The best prescription I can recommend is something akin to Warcraft's class trials. A short demonstration scenario where you get to play as a certain class at its end game to get a feel for its combat style, gameplay and rotations. We'll ultimately have to wait and see just how long it takes to get an appropriate feel for a class during the leveling process.
>FF14 allows classes to be changed on the fly
I'm not proposing being able to change on the fly. I recognise numerous issues with such a system and understand why a team would not want people to be able to do that.
@Aardvark
>The person saying its super easy and not time consuming to level them all is clearly just a troll
"Person has different opinion must be a troll" check
@crocos
>I'm personally of the opinion that being able to swap classes is unhealthy for the game.
How so? You stated its so but not elaborated why. I can definitely see a point if I was talking about Final Fantasy levels of class swapping, but I'm not, I definitely agree that level of freedom could and probably would be incredibly unhealthy, but how would a lengthy, pain in the ass questline to change your main class once every 6 months be a pain in the ass?
@Neurath
>The main issue is balance. If we code for 'Flavours of the month' and people can change their primary archetype, Guilds will exploit this in a PvX game. You would have no balance because the DPSers would always switch to the Highest DPS
Yes, which is why I suggested making it have a lockout time before you can swap again. I'm not against severely limiting the ability to reroll your main class, merely having it be an option. If I spend 2 months investing in a character, and decide I don't like the primary skill tree, I'd like the ability to change my mind on that character, as opposed to making a new one.
@Tsukasa
>I'd rather start over my adventurer level from zero + grind new gear + be unable to reroll for 1 year on my main than play an alt! BECAUSE MY MAIN IS MY IDENTITY!(surely this isn't my opinion alone. )
When the game is out, you will see the begging and quitting.
Exactly. I feel the same way. Maybe the other people here disagreeing are the types of people who never go by the same name in a game, but I do, my character is an extension of myself, if you were to force me to make a new one to change class, you're essentially having me "kill" that part of me
@CaptainChuck
>Your interest in your class shouldn't be based on whether the class is meta or not, rather on whether the class fits your playstyle and your identity or not. Just because a certain class is weak in a particular meta, doesn't mean that you should be able to reroll from that class to another.
Okay, I love archery. However I'm also an OCE player who often plays NA servers. This means I may find it too hard to manage the ping while playing an archery based class. If I spend 2 months trying to make it work, and feel I've been unable to and want to change to be a healer or a melee, what options do I have? Because my understanding is it's
1) Make a new character
And I'm not likely to do that, I'm more likely to quit on the spot instead.
>Also if they allow people to change their primary archetype, then you will have meta slaves. People that swap their classes, back and forth, depending on the meta. This is just an unhealthy thing to have in an MMORPG, as it just goes against the RPG element of MMOs.
Yes, which is why I would not at all be against a lockout from changing it again, which would heavily disincentivise that behaviour
@Aardvark
>You can change your primary class...they confimed you can level up an alt
I'm not willing to make a new character to play as a main. Never have in any game. I level and play alts periodically to try things out, but never do they exceed my mains capabilities. Even Diablo 3, where I have a Wizard, a Necro and a Demon Hunter, my wizard hasn't been touched in 2 years and my Necro has 40 hours of playtime compared to my Demon Hunters 300.
@Niraada
>If people swap primary archetypes every patch, there's a depth of knowledge that gets sacrificed as a result.
Yes, which is why, again, I'm all for a lockout from preventing people just swapping at a whim constantly. I'm not suggesting a way of changing your mainclass on a monthly basis, I'm suggesting a way of changing it once, maybe twice a year.
>I also think that a lack of identity would be a detriment to the game's social experience. As the community forms and grows, reputations of individuals within that community are tied into that sense of identity.
I'd like to agree with this, but for a different and directly opposing reason as you.
If I have been playing the game for 6 years, and decide I want to try something new, and make a new character to do so, no one will know who I am, I'd be a nobody. I might be able to provide players with plenty of assistance with how to play as or against the class I spent 6 years playing, yet it would have no weight because I'd be a nobody. By comparison, if I just changed my class, people would see me, see the time I have invested, and when I make statements or provide some help on playing a class I spent a long time on, it would have more weight, especially if they'd seen me around a lot as that class.
I agree that a lack of identity would be a detriment to the game's social experience, but I believe forcing people to make new characters if they wish to change their main class IS the source of that lack of identity.
It also doesn't help that I'm a rather indecisive person, making a decision that will LOCK me to that class is far far far harder for me than a decision which, while it's a pain in the fucking ASS to do, I CAN change my mind at a later date, without losing my identity I spent time investing in my main character.
>We do NOT know how trading between alts is going to work in this game, or if it will even be allowed in the first place.
I believe Steven said somewhere that not much will be bound, so I'm assuming trading will exist.
>This means that ALL you have to do is figure out your right primary archetype, which shouldn't be a hard thing to do if you've ever played an MMO before.
I've played MMOs before. I've played a lot of games before. And in all of them, making a decision that hard locks my character in pretty much any way is incredibly hard for me to do.
In Archeage I was a Cloth mage, and had items to convert my gear to Leather. It took about 3-4 months of research, talking to people, and experiencing cloth mage for me to make a decision. Will I have 3-4 months to play each class, and speak with more experienced people to assist me in making a decision that will decide the rest of my gameplay? No, not really. And even if I did, chances of obtaining a name I care about after so long would be nigh impossible.
I understand trying to make the decision have consequences, and I'm not against making changing your primary class to be an EVEN MORE lengthy and painful process than just making an alt. I just want the option to exist.
I can concede, it would be nice not to have to relevel a toon in order to satiate urges. I do not know how much of a redevelopment it would need from a standard perspective. It isn't an inception plan and can't be done in Alpha 1 (Alpha 1 is ongoing). I don't know how in-depth such a change would require. I do not think it is a viable option at this time. It fundamentally changes the whole structure of Characters.
The reason I'm also against it is because I get tired of appearances and I like to create new characters. I do not know how much we can change character appearances across a lifespan either. We can state IS missed a trick with the limited approach but if the approach is limited it is limited for a reason. I still believe balance would be an issue if players can change the whole foundation of a character on the fly.
Why don't we just not have classes at all and just pick skills from a massive pool of abilities?
Is your character name your identity or that and what he can do? Are you John the mage? Or does your identity allow you to basically switch core concepts of your character whenever you feel like it and it helps you in-game?
This whole argument is a bit silly.
>If you are allowed to change your primary archetype, your advancement should be reset to the beginning (i.e. the same as creating an alt). Just because other games allow you to level up with one class and then switch to a different one, does not mean that Ashes should.
Yes, I agree. There's no point in any message I have posted here where I have disagreed with this much.
@Ljosalfar
>It's an interesting concept and attractive on the surface; allowing a player to re-imagine their character's play style and gameplay while retaining their persona, their inventory and accomplishments
Yes, this is basically the entire reason.
>However it's something I wouldn't recommend in a massively-multiplayer setting. The assumption is that if it were a service that a player could take advantage of, it would be unwise to assume it would be used by a small minority of players who didn't think too hard about their primary class and want to try something else but don't want to start all over and wanna keep pace with their friends but just fill a different role or class niche.
I don't think it'd only be used by a small niche if it were unrestricted, that's why I'm all for making it a huge pain to go through. Like I said, I wouldn't even mind if it was literally MORE hassle to reroll your main than just levelling an alt. Because, lets be real here for a moment. The same people who'd abuse a system to reroll your main, would also be the same people willing to invest in 8 characters, whichever was strongest at the time, like @matthewhills mentioned above me
>The reality would be, however, that as the game evolves and develops, that a feature like this would be abused by a larger population of the game's player base to swap classes whenever a balance patch skews in favor of one class archetype over another. Worse if this was a paid service, would have AoC fall into the "Pay-to-Win" category where players can pay to be the best class for their role every so many months or weeks between patches.
I agree it shouldn't be paid, 100%. I also believe people who'd just swap class depending on the balance would also just make an alt depending on the balance. The only way of preventing this completely would be 1 character per account, and no ability to reroll, but then you can just have a second account, so in reality you STILL haven't stopped it, and now it's arguably p2w.
And again, to reiterate, I'm all for making it a huge pain AND having a lockout preventing people from changing constantly.
@matthewhills
>If the goal of locking a character's primary archetype is to create long term decisions that have meaningful gameplay consequences then doesn't the ability to create alts with different primary archetypes circumvent these decisions just as much as switching does? With the correct restrictions (you have to level each primary archetype separately, can only swap in an inn at a stage three or higher city) what is the actual difference between allowing a single character to level multiple primary archetypes and allowing players to create alts? It seems as though if the devs really believed being able to switch primary archetypes/have multiple artisan skills would be bad for the game then they should restrict players to only one character per server.
^ Basically yes. Although I feel like "(you have to level each primary archetype separately, can only swap in an inn at a stage three or higher city)" is far too easy for what I'm suggesting, and also isn't as weighty. I'm talking more along the lines of when you swap, you're essentially level 1 again, just with all your accomplishments etc still there, and your inventory. Your gear has a level 20 requirement? You can't equip it. I'm not suggesting a free
@Neurath
>I don't know how in-depth such a change would require. I do not think it is a viable option at this time. It fundamentally changes the whole structure of Characters.
I don't think it'd take much compared to other systems in the game, but I could even accept it not being a feature at launch. If IS were to just say, right now, it will be a feature but may take a year after launch to be implemented, I'm okay with that, I can live with that. If I feel that strongly about changing class, I'd just wait until I had that option, either gritting my teeth and dealing with it, or by taking a break until I could.
It's not viable at all. Having every primary class at your disposal at any time is a bad design idea. Everyone will be able to jump around and basically not care about anything class related because they can always switch. That's stupid and will hurt the game in the long run.
You clearly haven't read much I've said.
First, picking from a massive pool of abilities isn't even how games with free-changing classes operate, so that's a huge over-exaggeration of what is being discussed, at least here.
Secondly, " allow you to basically switch core concepts of your character whenever you feel like it" is behaviour I COMPLETELY understand not wanting to exist. I agree with that decision. It's why I support things like having a lockout before you could change again. The only part where I don't agree is NEVER being able to change it.
Again, you clearly haven't read anything in this thread. I do not WANT nor have I SUGGESTED or ASKED FOR being able to have every primary class at your disposal at any time. Not even CLOSE. In fact, literally allowing alts will allow having every primary class at your disposal more than what I've suggested here.
Takes 45 days to level, okay. So lets say you want to make an alt to reroll, that'd take you 45 days without help.
Do you believe taking 45 days to reroll your class, and being locked out from doing it again for 180 days. Would be any different, let alone easier?
I'm not a developer, but, to ask for a redesign of classes mechanics would be like asking for a change in Node Dynamics. The MMO has staple building blocks and the building blocks are expanded upon. It makes no sense to go back and redesign the Class building blocks. We haven't even seen all of the classes. I still think balance is king in terms of the classes in the game (I understand there will be group balance). I explained before that people following 'The Flavour of the Month' would have no balance. If one can change the staple of what one is then there is no staple. If this was a PvE title then as I've said before it would make more sense to be able to change everything. This is a PvX Title, every class will matter in Sieges and Raids. If everyone followed 'The Flavour of the Month' we'd be stuck in a situation where Sieges become unbalanced and Raids might not be viable.
This is why I explained the work load for changing the dynamics not in place from Inception would be so catastrophic. Every system relies on the classes. There is not a system that doesn't. Combat is one of the corest core systems you can have in an MMO. I understand that some would say Nodes or sieges become more of a core core system, but, if you don't have good, balanced combat, Nodes won't level and sieges would be so unbalanced people would be wiped by 'Flavours of the Month.'
@nibiru97 I don't think keeping inventory would break the game any more than someone making an alt, but I'd be willing to at least consider a full rebirthing type system like that if that's the route Intrepid wanted to take with it. I wouldn't be the biggest fan of going that route, but I'd appreciate it over nothing, and it would at the very least be a pretty big consideration
@phdmonster Again, if you think that your primary archetype should be a truly permanent decision (not necessarily saying it shouldn't) then you should also be against the ability to create alts. As it stands you can swap your primary archetype/artisan skill as frequently as you want by switching to different alts and the only way to change that is to restrict players to one character per server.
As Steven likes to play the "Risk vs. Reward"/"Decisions matter" card, i hope that it will not be possible.
The dependancy on other players would simply vanish because swapping would be the meta.
And having a meta that is obtainable through swapping your primary reduces your freedom. You're somewhat forced to meta if you want to find groups.
There's simply no need:
If you want to play all primarys, you can do so. Just alt a lot.
Coming up with "Identity" - yes you identify as a class. If you find out you're disliking your primary you can feel free to use your character-creator saves and re-roll with a slightly different name.
Just because "fluid-idetities" are todays flavour it should find it's way in AoC.
@Bakrem You literally explained in your comment that class swapping is already planned to be in the game, you just have to make alts. How does the ability to change a character's class destroy the game but playing multiple classes via different characters on the same server not destroy the game?
If we were discussing a freely changing system, like Final Fantasy, I could completely understand this position. But do you not agree that an alt would be almost identical as what I'm suggesting?
Dependancy would not vanish, as you would not be able to change constantly. You're also forced into that meta anyway. Lets say that a meta 8 man is 1 of each class. Well, "Sorry there Mr Fighter, we have a Fighter already, find another group." will be a thing, and that's not going to be much different if primary class changes existed, as all it'd be is "We already have a fighter, pick another class or find another group."
Well, my suggestion would make the "pick another class" part fucking moronic, so you're left with "Find another group" which is exactly the same outcome, so I do not believe that's a great argument.
"Just alt a lot" ignores what a couple people have said here. We don't want to. We'd rather invest MORE time in rerolling our main than making a new character. We also don't wan't slightly different names. We want our name, our identity. Sure a "slightly different" name would be instantly recognisable, but it would still feel wrong for many of us.
I don't suggest a fluid changing of classes. I understand issues people have with it, and I see issues with developing with such systems in mind, I merely suggest ways of allowing it to be possible to change it, even if that possibility ends up being harder and more time consuming than just making and levelling/gearing an alt. I even mentioned not even being against just fully rebirthing your character, keeping only Achievements and name. I don't think that extreme is necessary, but I'd be accepting of it if that's the route IS went. Do you believe that that would be any different at all to making an alt?
Okay if I spend time levelling a mage, and want to change to fighter, and get reset to level 0 keeping only my name, inventory and achievements, and level it back up to the same degree, have I not spent just as long of an investment as levelling 2 characters?
Personally I don't think such a thing should exist as thats kind of how Final Fantasy does it, and that has a lot of issues that already have been mentioned. That said, if swapping to your Fighter to level it up dropped your Mage to level 1, I think that's something that would be much more agreeable to many, while still serving the purposes I made this post about, while still disincentivising swapping due to meta/balance changes
To be clear, I'm defining 'appropriate level of burden' here as roughly the effort it requires one to level up the desired archetype. Why? Because if you want to have a max level character of a given archetype, you should work for it. Not just have it handed to you.
Personally, I disagree with the 'you deserve this just for showing up' mentality that has plagued MMO's in recent years.
People would swap for flavour of the month, it would formulate a kinda stale meta for pvp as everyone who matters would have all their classes maxed out, meaning they'd organise stupidly efficient meta groups making it hard to deal with, people would lack a lot of experience in their class.
It'd also be a nightmare to balance around, pve content would result in people forcing you to swap class for content, etc etc
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Okay if I spend time levelling a mage, and want to change to fighter, and get reset to level 0 keeping only my name, inventory and achievements, and level it back up to the same degree, have I not spent just as long of an investment as levelling 2 characters?
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its not the same because there is also a lot of side progression on a character, your religon, the societies you joined, your artisan skill. If you wanted to switch primary class on the same character all of those would have to go as well. If you wanted to switch your primary archetype like you suggest, then id be fine with it if the ONLY thing you kept was your name. EVERYTHING else is lost.
[/quote]
its not the same because there is also a lot of side progression on a character, your religon, the societies you joined, your artisan skill. If you wanted to switch primary class on the same character all of those would have to go as well. If you wanted to switch your primary archetype like you suggest, then id be fine with it if the ONLY thing you kept was your name. EVERYTHING else is lost.[/quote]
Inventory would definitely have to go. Citizenship, any religious augments earned, and any currency and resources in the warehouse too. Mounts, houses, etc.
I'm ok with someone keeping their freehold though. After all, that's account wide anyway.