Problem is that each champion is a specialized "build" in its own and any customization is basically one dimensional with clear best options - if you want to win that is.
That is why to create a strong foundation for each archetype is much harder, because you need to create an enjoyable experience for most of the builds that might come from that archetype. And from experience the best builds do not guarantee enjoyable combat loop
@Tragnar
I see. MMO classes need to be open ended.
I think you can still build interskill synergy in there though - if you place more of the power in inter-skill effects? Maybe that's where AoC passives will come in to play.
I just don't want it to be like Tera... I did not enjoy sorcerer in that game.
In my experience you basically have these gameplay loops:
- keep self buffs/target debuffs
- spam the best performing ability that is not on cooldown
- spam cooldowns and stack cooldowns on top of each other
- have builder/spender system
- have random procs that alter the order of best performing abilities for a short duration or even only for one cast
- resource management - recovery of resource through consumables/spells, pooling resources for damage windows (usually for cooldown usage), choice between resource effective skills and highest damage ones
- management of group wide cooldown buffs or party/raid wide debuffs by the enemy
- repositioning
- defensives
League does not use all of the things above, because the much more limited amount of abilities and passives. Not to say that all of mmo builds are balanced towards max level customization while the leveling up state of the builds are more like downscaled versions.
However league is balancing every champion for the whole leveling up process, because every time you enter a PvP battle everyone is at level 1. So you have champions that are literally bad when everyone has 6 items and others that are literally ascending to godhood at 6 items. On the same note this works in the other way, because some champions are in the "godhood" phase when everyone has around 1 completed item or any other time stamp within the match.
This important difference makes balancing mmo and keeping distinct relevant builds really hard, because nobody cares if your archetype is the strongest on the few first levels, but literally the worst on the max level.
“Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”
― Plato
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Tragnar you're right that LoL doesn't use a lot of the gameplay loops you find in a lot of mmorpgs like builder-spender and proc-RNG, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have its own amazing combat. Having so few abilities on a single character actaully helps LoL in developing those synergies between champions and makes the combat more enjoyable than a lot of mmorpgs.
What I find fascinating about LoL is there is a clear evolution in the champion design and the gameplay. If you go back to the beginning and look at the champions in season 1 they are far more linear and simplistic than the ones being released today.
What I find fascinating about LoL is there is a clear evolution in the champion design and the gameplay. If you go back to the beginning and look at the champions in season 1 they are far more linear and simplistic than the ones being released today.
Ryze.
That is all.
HAHAHAHAHA
I wish I were deep and tragic
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
What I find fascinating about LoL is there is a clear evolution in the champion design and the gameplay. If you go back to the beginning and look at the champions in season 1 they are far more linear and simplistic than the ones being released today.
Ryze.
That is all.
HAHAHAHAHA
Haha Ryze has been reworked like 4 times already or something stupid.
What I find fascinating about LoL is there is a clear evolution in the champion design and the gameplay. If you go back to the beginning and look at the champions in season 1 they are far more linear and simplistic than the ones being released today.
Ryze.
That is all.
HAHAHAHAHA
Haha Ryze has been reworked like 4 times already or something stupid.
Exactly!
But I thought his reworks have also been a great showcase of how their design philosophy changed.
In particular how his E was changed from a bouncing pingpong spell to one that rewards accurate use of Q (and his Q changing from a point-and-click spell to a skillshot)
That idea of synergy pops up in: Zoe's sleep bubble that rewards a full range Q, Ezreal's W with any of his other skills, Nidalee Spear/Trap enhancing the pounce, Leesin syndrome... etc.
I love it - but these examples are to do with skillshots - which contest the opponent's ability to side step (aiming and dodging). I've read in a few places that people in AoC aren't keen for that kind of combat ...?
So I guess combat in AoC will have to be focused around a different core - for an MMORPG I guess the focus is around the uniqueness of your choice and the build you choose?
I'm theorycrafting - but that suggests that the optimal combat system for an MMORPG is built around a fully customizable skill system.
I wish I were deep and tragic
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
What I find fascinating about LoL is there is a clear evolution in the champion design and the gameplay. If you go back to the beginning and look at the champions in season 1 they are far more linear and simplistic than the ones being released today.
Ryze.
That is all.
HAHAHAHAHA
Haha Ryze has been reworked like 4 times already or something stupid.
Exactly!
But I thought his reworks have also been a great showcase of how their design philosophy changed.
In particular how his E was changed from a bouncing pingpong spell to one that rewards accurate use of Q (and his Q changing from a point-and-click spell to a skillshot)
That idea of synergy pops up in: Zoe's sleep bubble that rewards a full range Q, Ezreal's W with any of his other skills, Nidalee Spear/Trap enhancing the pounce, Leesin syndrome... etc.
I love it - but these examples are to do with skillshots - which contest the opponent's ability to side step (aiming and dodging). I've read in a few places that people in AoC aren't keen for that kind of combat ...?
So I guess combat in AoC will have to be focused around a different core - for an MMORPG I guess the focus is around the uniqueness of your choice and the build you choose?
I'm theorycrafting - but that suggests that the optimal combat system for an MMORPG is built around a fully customizable skill system.
So, I brought this up earlier on in the thread that a lot of the combat in LoL revolves around effective use of the bushes and the fog of war, something that you don't have in most mmorpgs. This helps to balance skillshots and click-on abilities because click-on abilities are only guaranteed to land if you can see your target. If your opponent goes into the bushes and you can't see them, the click-on ability is useless. On the other hand, skillshots out in the open are harder to hit but can still be used on someone who is invisible or hidden in the bushes.
LoL recently came out with a Spirit Blossom theme which most likely a spinoff of Japanamation. Think if Ashes of creation werre to make an Oriental Expansion think it should use that art style as a template.
One of the Coolest toons in my opinions is Inuyasha´s Brother Sesshomaru was trying to up load image but was having trouble with that all you have to do is Google Sesshomaru. Think this Artstyle would be most Appropriate for Oriental Expansion.
Also LoL Champion named Jax and made a skin for him called Temple Jax which is also Oriental in nature think League of Legends did an excellent job with that particalur skin.
LoL recently came out with a Spirit Blossom theme which most likely a spinoff of Japanamation. Think if Ashes of creation werre to make an Oriental Expansion think it should use that art style as a template.
One of the Coolest toons in my opinions is Inuyasha´s Brother Sesshomaru was trying to up load image but was having trouble with that all you have to do is Google Sesshomaru. Think this Artstyle would be most Appropriate for Oriental Expansion.
Also LoL Champion named Jax and made a skin for him called Temple Jax which is also Oriental in nature think League of Legends did an excellent job with that particalur skin.
LoL recently came out with a Spirit Blossom theme which most likely a spinoff of Japanamation. Think if Ashes of creation werre to make an Oriental Expansion think it should use that art style as a template.
One of the Coolest toons in my opinions is Inuyasha´s Brother Sesshomaru was trying to up load image but was having trouble with that all you have to do is Google Sesshomaru. Think this Artstyle would be most Appropriate for Oriental Expansion.
Also LoL Champion named Jax and made a skin for him called Temple Jax which is also Oriental in nature think League of Legends did an excellent job with that particalur skin.
This is about combat mechanics not aesthetics
Yeah um kind of League of legends related really im the one that started this thread....and well think Starting another thread just for this topic is kind of redundant. So just kind of put it here since it is LoL related.
Orignal thread was about a dev discussion asking players what type of video games they were playing I just happen to have a lot to say about this game.
Implosion sounds like an awesome ability idea. Adding an area effect charge would definitely bring in some strategic gameplay. And chain lightning? That's gonna be a blast, especially if you can change targets or zap multiple times by pressing the button. You're right about Wall of Force, you can already pick where it goes, but it's still a pretty neat ability for controlling the battlefield. And Mecha Zion Zero sounds like a champ with some seriously epic abilities, especially that transforming train charge! I haven't played all the champs either, but discovering new ones is always exciting. Skill shots can be tricky, but the ability to change direction or area of effect during cast time adds an extra layer of skill. Btw, what do you think about https://lol-script.com/? Have you tried it out?
While there are no doubt some things you can learn from League of Legends, studying a MOBA for the way a MMORPG skills are going to work is probably not the best material to study.
I'm going to be difficult and disagree cause why not. League has a large variety of ability mechanics and synergies. Yes, you wouldn't want to copy the abilities 100% but i'd argue there are ideas or at least things that can be used as inspiration for class abilities in an MMO.
Its also the closest thing you will find to hybrid combat aswell imo.
While there are no doubt some things you can learn from League of Legends, studying a MOBA for the way a MMORPG skills are going to work is probably not the best material to study.
you say that but it also has a blend of tab target combat and skil shots aka AoC hybrid combat so yeah it probaly good to have a look tbh
Here some skill mechanics from league of legends that would would work well
Nami W = (tab target skill) heal/dmg skill that bounces between targets (cant bounce to 2 allies or 2 enemies in a row) Another interesting thing is its bounces are less effective early on but as you get more AP (magic bonus) stat it actualy amplies the bounce instead
Senna Q = (Tab target) Targets friend or enemy and heal all allies in a line and dmgs all enemies. it can only target as far as there target range however it ray goes 30% or so further so u can snipe somone behind a target using somone as a medium to get that extra range. AA also reduces the CD here so it could be a way to tie basic attacks into some skills
Lux W = (Ground target) throw a ball out to a location it will light up an area and slows everyone inside it and when u reactiuve the skill it explodes dealing dmg in the area. This mechanic can be used as a zoning tool aswell as a dmg dmging ability
Thresh Q - (skill shot) Throws out a hook and drags the target towards you, reactivting the skill pull you to the target
Thresh W (Ground target) throws a lantern that provides a shield and if ally uses it he pull the lantern back along with the ally to get them out of a dangerous location
Mordikaiser R - (tab target) pulls somone into a alternative realm where they can fight 1v1 for 6 seconds or something before returning to the realm (might be interesting mechanic for some summoner subclass it like a revease summon where u can pull them into the realm of where summoner pulls there summons from) this abiolity allows you to seperate somone in a fight from their allies and urs aswell for a duration
Azirs W - Arise, summons a sand soldier which the player uses to attack with basic attacks if there in range of the soldier can be used to zone and allows for attackjing from longer range, They can also be used as mobility with rest of his kit where one allows him to dash the soilder somewhere and the other button makes him fly to a sand soldier
cassopeia R (Ground target cone) Petrify/stun everyone in the cone that facing you
Comments
That is why to create a strong foundation for each archetype is much harder, because you need to create an enjoyable experience for most of the builds that might come from that archetype. And from experience the best builds do not guarantee enjoyable combat loop
― Plato
I see. MMO classes need to be open ended.
I think you can still build interskill synergy in there though - if you place more of the power in inter-skill effects? Maybe that's where AoC passives will come in to play.
I just don't want it to be like Tera... I did not enjoy sorcerer in that game.
League does not use all of the things above, because the much more limited amount of abilities and passives. Not to say that all of mmo builds are balanced towards max level customization while the leveling up state of the builds are more like downscaled versions.
However league is balancing every champion for the whole leveling up process, because every time you enter a PvP battle everyone is at level 1. So you have champions that are literally bad when everyone has 6 items and others that are literally ascending to godhood at 6 items. On the same note this works in the other way, because some champions are in the "godhood" phase when everyone has around 1 completed item or any other time stamp within the match.
This important difference makes balancing mmo and keeping distinct relevant builds really hard, because nobody cares if your archetype is the strongest on the few first levels, but literally the worst on the max level.
― Plato
What I find fascinating about LoL is there is a clear evolution in the champion design and the gameplay. If you go back to the beginning and look at the champions in season 1 they are far more linear and simplistic than the ones being released today.
Ryze.
That is all.
HAHAHAHAHA
Haha Ryze has been reworked like 4 times already or something stupid.
Exactly!
But I thought his reworks have also been a great showcase of how their design philosophy changed.
In particular how his E was changed from a bouncing pingpong spell to one that rewards accurate use of Q (and his Q changing from a point-and-click spell to a skillshot)
That idea of synergy pops up in: Zoe's sleep bubble that rewards a full range Q, Ezreal's W with any of his other skills, Nidalee Spear/Trap enhancing the pounce, Leesin syndrome... etc.
I love it - but these examples are to do with skillshots - which contest the opponent's ability to side step (aiming and dodging). I've read in a few places that people in AoC aren't keen for that kind of combat ...?
So I guess combat in AoC will have to be focused around a different core - for an MMORPG I guess the focus is around the uniqueness of your choice and the build you choose?
I'm theorycrafting - but that suggests that the optimal combat system for an MMORPG is built around a fully customizable skill system.
Care to elaborate on why you think that?
So, I brought this up earlier on in the thread that a lot of the combat in LoL revolves around effective use of the bushes and the fog of war, something that you don't have in most mmorpgs. This helps to balance skillshots and click-on abilities because click-on abilities are only guaranteed to land if you can see your target. If your opponent goes into the bushes and you can't see them, the click-on ability is useless. On the other hand, skillshots out in the open are harder to hit but can still be used on someone who is invisible or hidden in the bushes.
One of the Coolest toons in my opinions is Inuyasha´s Brother Sesshomaru was trying to up load image but was having trouble with that all you have to do is Google Sesshomaru. Think this Artstyle would be most Appropriate for Oriental Expansion.
Also LoL Champion named Jax and made a skin for him called Temple Jax which is also Oriental in nature think League of Legends did an excellent job with that particalur skin.
This is about combat mechanics not aesthetics
Yeah um kind of League of legends related really im the one that started this thread....and well think Starting another thread just for this topic is kind of redundant. So just kind of put it here since it is LoL related.
Orignal thread was about a dev discussion asking players what type of video games they were playing I just happen to have a lot to say about this game.
Its also the closest thing you will find to hybrid combat aswell imo.
you say that but it also has a blend of tab target combat and skil shots aka AoC hybrid combat so yeah it probaly good to have a look tbh
Nami W = (tab target skill) heal/dmg skill that bounces between targets (cant bounce to 2 allies or 2 enemies in a row) Another interesting thing is its bounces are less effective early on but as you get more AP (magic bonus) stat it actualy amplies the bounce instead
Senna Q = (Tab target) Targets friend or enemy and heal all allies in a line and dmgs all enemies. it can only target as far as there target range however it ray goes 30% or so further so u can snipe somone behind a target using somone as a medium to get that extra range. AA also reduces the CD here so it could be a way to tie basic attacks into some skills
Lux W = (Ground target) throw a ball out to a location it will light up an area and slows everyone inside it and when u reactiuve the skill it explodes dealing dmg in the area. This mechanic can be used as a zoning tool aswell as a dmg dmging ability
Thresh Q - (skill shot) Throws out a hook and drags the target towards you, reactivting the skill pull you to the target
Thresh W (Ground target) throws a lantern that provides a shield and if ally uses it he pull the lantern back along with the ally to get them out of a dangerous location
Mordikaiser R - (tab target) pulls somone into a alternative realm where they can fight 1v1 for 6 seconds or something before returning to the realm (might be interesting mechanic for some summoner subclass it like a revease summon where u can pull them into the realm of where summoner pulls there summons from) this abiolity allows you to seperate somone in a fight from their allies and urs aswell for a duration
Azirs W - Arise, summons a sand soldier which the player uses to attack with basic attacks if there in range of the soldier can be used to zone and allows for attackjing from longer range, They can also be used as mobility with rest of his kit where one allows him to dash the soilder somewhere and the other button makes him fly to a sand soldier
cassopeia R (Ground target cone) Petrify/stun everyone in the cone that facing you
just a couple off the top of my head