maybe not a dps meter but what about this...

What do you guys think about this idea that I just got...? There is a lot of people who do not want dps meters and there is a lot of people who want to improve skill rotation, right? What if we had a trainig zone were there are those Training Dummy which tells you how´s doing dps doing compare to other players? if ya want to see how you are actually doing so you must go to the training zone and check it out, these Trainig Dummy could copilate all the info from others players and let you know if your dps is low/medium or high (just lets us knows if very low,low, high,medium.etc)

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Noaani

Ironhammer wrote: »

I don't feel any need to add to this.

Thank god.

Oh, I'll repeat it.

Probably quite often - since you aren't going to address how blatantly wrong you were here and yet seem to still think your opinion on a topic you clearly have no knowledge of matters.

I just don't need to add anything to it.

I could also perhaps make it my forum signature - and since I turn signatures off on all forums as soon as I can, I'd probably soon forget it was even there.

In the mean time...

Ironhammer wrote: »

Keep pulling shit out of your ass man.

Ironhammer wrote: »

DPS meters only exist in WoW and TESO.

Noaani wrote: »

this

Ironhammer

I don't feel any need to add to this.

Thank god.

Noaani wrote: »

Ironhammer wrote: »

I don't feel any need to add to this.

Thank god.

Oh, I'll repeat it.

Probably quite often - since you aren't going to address how blatantly wrong you were here and yet seem to still think your opinion on a topic you clearly have no knowledge of matters.

I just don't need to add anything to it.

Are you expecting me to be ashamed of it? You're reaching REALLY hard to justify what you want to be true. You're full of shit and promoting some ass backwards website that no one uses, probably just want the community to use your bullshit for ashes. Go shill some where else.

Noaani

Ironhammer wrote: »

Are you expecting me to be ashamed of it?

No, I expect you to admit when you are clearly, blatantly and demonstrably wrong on a point you were very adamant on.

Also, ACT isn't mine, I have no affiliation with it, I use their icon as my forum sig for reasons.

Ironhammer

Noaani wrote: »

Ironhammer wrote: »

Are you expecting me to be ashamed of it?

No, I expect you to admit when you are clearly, blatantly and demonstrably wrong on a point you were very adamant on.

Also, ACT isn't mine, I have no affiliation with it, I use their icon as my forum sig for reasons.

You know that add ons have negative effects on the health of an MMORPG, yet you're still promoting them. Keep shilling dude, how much you getting paid?

Dygz

Tragnar wrote: »

The only time that such RP is accepted and encouraged is only with players that on some scale practice this RP themselves

This is primarily my point, I think.
At it's core, RP is just playing the game from the character perspectives (in character chat) as much as possible and keeping discussion of the meta and real world topics to a minimum.
Sure, lots of RPers go farther and craft background stories for their characters and "The RP Community" may try to GM their own stories. But, basic RP is just staying in character rather than discussing things from a player perspective.

A lot of gamers have not played RPGs before, so they don't even think about keeping player perspective to a minimum. They just talk about whatever they want to talk about. And when you mention RP to them, they will say things like, "Oh. I don't know how to do that." Or "Oh. I'm not very good at that." Especially if they think RP means they're supposed to talk in Elizabethan English - which was a very common misconception in the early days of EQ.
Not implementing combat trackers brings the game closer to RP because instead of focusing on what Steven calls "mechanical bullshit", combat analysis can focus more on what abilities and augments to use.

Also, MMORPGs were not designed with characters to have flaws as well as perks. Many table-top RPGs do have flaws as well as perks. So, most players in table-top games learn how to compensate for flaws. Gamers in MMORPGs strive to be uber-powerful and uber-efficient - that whole speed run for loot phenomenon.

The original idea of MMORPGs was that players would be forever questing. Hence, the name Everquest.
Leveling via questing was intended to last until the next expansion. But, gamers focused on "beating the game" as quickly as possible. So, it wasn't too long before it became common to hit max level in 8 weeks or less, rather than the dev expectation of 9 months - 1 year. I think by 2005, most gamers were speeding through expansions in about 3 weeks.
So...what do you do to keep players paying for subscriptions after they speed through quests? You make the dungeons and raids difficult enough that it keeps the people who play them playing for 9 months to 2 years while the devs create new content. And, especially as gamers create add-ons to help them speed through content even more quickly, easily and efficiently, the devs provide their own combat trackers.
By 2013, most gamers considered any leveling prior to max level to be a grind designed to keep them from end-game. Because "endgame is the real game". Which is all kinds of wrong, but makes sense when you spend 4/5 of your time or more in the end-game.

I get it...why focus on character immersion when that's not going to help you clear content as quickly and efficiently as possible?

But, you can just look at what Steven's quotes to see what his philosophy is:
STEVEN: First of all, on the add-on front, we're not allowing add-ons.
Which means he wants players to play the game the devs designed rather than finding ways to make it easier to speed through the content.

STEVEN: Back in the day, when MMOs were great, you had to win your encounters through trial and error. You didn't have a DPS meter telling you, "Oh! We need to get up to 67.7% damage in order to achieve the whatever!" It wasn't some mechanical bullshit experience where you got to look at a graph or chart and say, "Oh! We need to do exactly this." Instead, you actually had to be present, you had to watch what was happening, you had to help your fellow guild members learn how to play the game and you had to excel as a group.
Back in the day, we used trial and error. Which is not as quick and efficient as relying on the mechanical bullshit of combat trackers, but brings us closer to an RP experience.
That's also why he's trying to get away from using numbers to indicate the health of combat targets in UI and instead display health decay as nameplate decay.

Focusing on discussing the characters' perspectives of what abilities were used - describing what the abilities that were seen or the abilities that could be used, rather than discussing DPS, brings us closer to RP.

STEVEN: From a roleplay perspective, we want people to be in-depth with their characters.
I don't think Steven is talking about this in RP in the form of making up your own dialogues with NPCs.

Asgerr

Maybe I have missed something, but, @Noaani , do you have something to do with the development of combat trackers?

I had no idea what that ACT meant in your avatar, and I saw that it showed up on the link you shared: https://advancedcombattracker.com/

For the sake of transparency with the rest of the of people on the forum, and to better grasp where you're coming from: do you have an added layer of interest in Ashes having a combat tracker?

Not saying that that would be an issue. I think it would be a fair thing to do, but so we all are on the same page as to the reasons why.

Noaani

Ironhammer wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Ironhammer wrote: »

Are you expecting me to be ashamed of it?

No, I expect you to admit when you are clearly, blatantly and demonstrably wrong on a point you were very adamant on.

Also, ACT isn't mine, I have no affiliation with it, I use their icon as my forum sig for reasons.

You know that add ons have negative effects on the health of an MMORPG, yet you're still promoting them. Keep shilling dude, how much you getting paid?

So, this is a conversation I have had numerous times on these forums.

First of all, I am not asking for an add on. I am asking for a combat tracker - preferably one built in to the game.

Second, not all add ons are bad. It is bad if the game opens up the API like WoW did, but that isn't going to happen in any other game.

Third, I am not shilling anything. If I were shilling something, it would probably not be a piece of software that is free to use.

Noaani

Asgerr wrote: »

Maybe I have missed something, but, @Noaani , do you have something to do with the development of combat trackers?

No.

Here is a post from a few days ago in one of the other threads.

Noaani wrote: »

akabear wrote: »

@Noaani
ACT name and insignia alias chosen for Ashes forums is coincidently the same as Advancedcombattracker, maker of trackers for multiple MMORPGs

Makes sense now why you have advised that if they are permitted or not you will be using one

ACT has website advertising tracker for FFXIV, EQ2, SWTOR, TSW, League of Legends

ACT website charges for these trackers.

Web search shows ACT has been in the business of making trackers as early as 2012.. perhaps further.

What conclusions should the community take from this?

I can see how you can come to some of those conclusions.

However, they are basically all wrong.

First bullet point; Back when the combat tracker megathread was going on, I was in a discussion with I believe @Nagash and @Wandering Mist (summoning both!). We were talking about post counts or some such - one of us just got a new forum badge. The discussion moved on to how I had neither capitalized my forum name (couldn't do that at the start), nor added a forum avatar.

So, I did both.

Since the other major discussion going on at the time was the combat tracker thread, I opted to use the icon of my combat tracker of choice as my forum avatar. If Aditu has an issue with that, I am happy to change it.

Second bullet point; I will use one because I enjoy using them.

Third bullet point; ACT does indeed have plugins for basically all MMO's. Additionally, you can make your own plugin for ACT fairly easily so that it can be used on literally any dataset at all - not just combat from MMO's.

Fourth bullet point; ACT does not charge, it is free. They do accept donations though. You can put this to the test by downloading it.

Fifth bullet point; Act has been around since at least 2008. If you scroll down the downloads section of their website, you will see that there are still downloads (free downloads) that were uploaded in August 2008.

If I was directly involved with ACT, I would state as much - ESPECIALLY since I am using their icon as an avatar.

Any questions left?

Hope that clears things up.

Nagash

Why must you drag me into this Noaani I wish to stay clean!

Asgerr

Noaani wrote: »

Asgerr wrote: »

Maybe I have missed something, but, @Noaani , do you have something to do with the development of combat trackers?

No.

Here is a post from a few days ago in one of the other threads.

Noaani wrote: »

akabear wrote: »

@Noaani
ACT name and insignia alias chosen for Ashes forums is coincidently the same as Advancedcombattracker, maker of trackers for multiple MMORPGs

Makes sense now why you have advised that if they are permitted or not you will be using one

ACT has website advertising tracker for FFXIV, EQ2, SWTOR, TSW, League of Legends

ACT website charges for these trackers.

Web search shows ACT has been in the business of making trackers as early as 2012.. perhaps further.

What conclusions should the community take from this?

I can see how you can come to some of those conclusions.

However, they are basically all wrong.

First bullet point; Back when the combat tracker megathread was going on, I was in a discussion with I believe @Nagash and @Wandering Mist (summoning both!). We were talking about post counts or some such - one of us just got a new forum badge. The discussion moved on to how I had neither capitalized my forum name (couldn't do that at the start), nor added a forum avatar.

So, I did both.

Since the other major discussion going on at the time was the combat tracker thread, I opted to use the icon of my combat tracker of choice as my forum avatar. If Aditu has an issue with that, I am happy to change it.

Second bullet point; I will use one because I enjoy using them.

Third bullet point; ACT does indeed have plugins for basically all MMO's. Additionally, you can make your own plugin for ACT fairly easily so that it can be used on literally any dataset at all - not just combat from MMO's.

Fourth bullet point; ACT does not charge, it is free. They do accept donations though. You can put this to the test by downloading it.

Fifth bullet point; Act has been around since at least 2008. If you scroll down the downloads section of their website, you will see that there are still downloads (free downloads) that were uploaded in August 2008.

If I was directly involved with ACT, I would state as much - ESPECIALLY since I am using their icon as an avatar.

Any questions left?

Hope that clears things up.

Thanks for the info brother!

Noaani

Nagash wrote: »

Why must you drag me into this Noaani I wish to stay clean!

I was actually thinking just after I posted that - maybe I should have removed those two @'s.

In hindsight, I think it may have been Damokles in that conversation.

Nagash

Noaani wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

Why must you drag me into this Noaani I wish to stay clean!

I was actually thinking just after I posted that - maybe I should have removed those two @'s.

In hindsight, I think it may have been Damokles in that conversation.

well its one of us

rikardp98

Dygz wrote: »

But, you can just look at what Steven's quotes to see what his philosophy is:
STEVEN: First of all, on the add-on front, we're not allowing add-ons.
Which means he wants players to play the game the devs designed rather than finding ways to make it easier to speed through the content.

STEVEN: Back in the day, when MMOs were great, you had to win your encounters through trial and error. You didn't have a DPS meter telling you, "Oh! We need to get up to 67.7% damage in order to achieve the whatever!" It wasn't some mechanical bullshit experience where you got to look at a graph or chart and say, "Oh! We need to do exactly this." Instead, you actually had to be present, you had to watch what was happening, you had to help your fellow guild members learn how to play the game and you had to excel as a group.
Back in the day, we used trial and error. Which is not as quick and efficient as relying on the mechanical bullshit of combat trackers, but brings us closer to an RP experience.
That's also why he's trying to get away from using numbers to indicate the health of combat targets in UI and instead display health decay as nameplate decay.

Focusing on discussing the characters' perspectives of what abilities were used - describing what the abilities that were seen or the abilities that could be used, rather than discussing DPS, brings us closer to RP.

STEVEN: From a roleplay perspective, we want people to be in-depth with their characters.
I don't think Steven is talking about this in RP in the form of making up your own dialogues with NPCs.

PEOPLE STILL USE TRIAL AND ERROR IN MMORPGS THAT HAVE COMBAT TRACKERS!

If you think combat trackers tells you what you exactly need to do, then you don't know what you are talking about. It only tells you what exactly happened, you then need to figure out how beat the boss by trial and error. As I said before, just look at retail wow.

Then the RP comment is also not relevant if you read my last post.

The add-on comment I can agree with to some degree. Addons like Weak auras and deadly boss mods in wow is to much in my opinion. However, combat tracker isn't an addon since it's already in the game, we just want a nice UI to go with it so we can easier read the information we are looking for.
For those of you that do not know what weak auras is or deadly boss mods, they are addons that can tell you exactly what to do during a boss encounter. When the next spell is coming, when to hide, when to run, when to attack, everything. I can see why Steven do not what that in the game.

Noaani

rikardp98 wrote: »

PEOPLE STILL USE TRIAL AND ERROR IN MMORPGS THAT HAVE COMBAT TRACKERS!

If you think combat trackers tells you what you exactly need to do, then you don't know what you are talking about.

This is 100% accurate as a statement.

The part about this that has me concerned is not that Dygz believes combat trackers remove trial and error, but that Steven believes it.

Such a fundamental misunderstanding of an entire section of MMO gameplay does not bode well for that section of gameplay in Ashes.

Dygz

rikardp98 wrote: »

If you think combat trackers tells you what you exactly need to do, then you don't know what you are talking about. It only tells you what exactly happened, you then need to figure out how beat the boss by trial and error. As I said before, just look at retail wow.

I didn't say that combat trackers tell you exactly what to do.
Don't just make shit up and then pretend I said it.
What did I say combat trackers do?

Asgerr

Noaani wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

PEOPLE STILL USE TRIAL AND ERROR IN MMORPGS THAT HAVE COMBAT TRACKERS!

If you think combat trackers tells you what you exactly need to do, then you don't know what you are talking about.

This is 100% accurate as a statement.

The part about this that has me concerned is not that Dygz believes combat trackers remove trial and error, but that Steven believes it.

Such a fundamental misunderstanding of an entire section of MMO gameplay does not bode well for that section of gameplay in Ashes.

I think there's a correction to be made here.

Steven dislikes the idea of combat trackers, not only because he believes it breeds toxicity (which you can debate), but because it would then allow for other add-ons.

Other add-ons can then be used for less than legit practices such as botting and other forms of automations.
Or at the very least, that opening the door to that possibility would make it harder on the dev team to monitor and police them, if they believe it breaks terms of service, or just are "unethical" to the MMO experience.

Ironhammer

Noaani wrote: »

Ironhammer wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Ironhammer wrote: »

Are you expecting me to be ashamed of it?

No, I expect you to admit when you are clearly, blatantly and demonstrably wrong on a point you were very adamant on.

Also, ACT isn't mine, I have no affiliation with it, I use their icon as my forum sig for reasons.

You know that add ons have negative effects on the health of an MMORPG, yet you're still promoting them. Keep shilling dude, how much you getting paid?

So, this is a conversation I have had numerous times on these forums.

First of all, I am not asking for an add on. I am asking for a combat tracker - preferably one built in to the game.

Second, not all add ons are bad. It is bad if the game opens up the API like WoW did, but that isn't going to happen in any other game.

Third, I am not shilling anything. If I were shilling something, it would probably not be a piece of software that is free to use.

Okay, keep shilling man.

rikardp98

Dygz wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

If you think combat trackers tells you what you exactly need to do, then you don't know what you are talking about. It only tells you what exactly happened, you then need to figure out how beat the boss by trial and error. As I said before, just look at retail wow.

I didn't say that combat trackers tell you exactly what to do.
Don't just make shit up and then pretend I said it.
What did I say combat trackers do?

well if you agree with Stevens statement where he said, "Oh! We need to do exactly this." then yes you indirectly did so

rikardp98

Asgerr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

PEOPLE STILL USE TRIAL AND ERROR IN MMORPGS THAT HAVE COMBAT TRACKERS!

If you think combat trackers tells you what you exactly need to do, then you don't know what you are talking about.

This is 100% accurate as a statement.

The part about this that has me concerned is not that Dygz believes combat trackers remove trial and error, but that Steven believes it.

Such a fundamental misunderstanding of an entire section of MMO gameplay does not bode well for that section of gameplay in Ashes.

I think there's a correction to be made here.

Steven dislikes the idea of combat trackers, not only because he believes it breeds toxicity (which you can debate), but because it would then allow for other add-ons.

Other add-ons can then be used for less than legit practices such as botting and other forms of automations.
Or at the very least, that opening the door to that possibility would make it harder on the dev team to monitor and police them, if they believe it breaks terms of service, or just are "unethical" to the MMO experience.

For me the difference between an addon and a combat tracker is that, an addon you use during combat to make it easier, while a combat tracker is used after the encounter to get a better understanding what actually happened.

Dygz

I don't agree with your interpretation of what "Oh! We need to do exactly this." means.
To me, that refers to when people says, "Your DPS is low!! It needs to be xx!" "Your healing is supposed to be at xx! Slacker!"

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