I'm not sure how I offended you @Cypher, but I'll try to disengage on that front.
I'm seriously asking because I don't know what you actually want, and while that would be clarified by finding all your posts, which I'm willing to do, there are indeed some limitations on time for reading forum posts specifically.
Videos, however, I can do. For those who are not aware, Vindictus PvP plays like slower less flashy BDO, and Vindictus PvE, I can't judge, because it looks like watered down Monster Hunter, from the 40 minutes I've seen.
So, for disclosure, other posters, I may not be able to engage or make updates relative to Cypher's points due to time.
When did I say I was offended? Also, why are you speaking for other people (namely me) here? Are you RP-ing a herald or a forum journalist or something? It’s just a bit strange if I’m being honest. I can’t tell if I should be flattered or weirded out that you’re trying to summarize everything I’ve said about action combat. I guess if you do somehow find the time and do it justice, more power to you. Especially if it somehow gets the final product to be closer to what I want out of the game. Final thing I have to say to you would be you can’t try to ‘announce’ to everyone “who is not aware” that a game “plays a certain way” and then simultaneously state you’ve merely found some random 40 minutes of footage from god knows where.
Anyways, @Trax I took a peak at the footage you linked. It’s certainly close to Apoc at least, but sadly that’s not what I’m hoping for. A lot of people I’ve noticed consider Apoc an example of action combat. Perhaps, in some rudimentary basic nature it is, since it has no targeting. That’s partly why when I mention action combat I usually include the terms “strings” and “combos” to specifically call out those mechanics as being required in “good” action combat. Apoc had about 5 skills, each of which only required one key press, and there were no attack strings (an example of an attack string, using your mouse buttons, would be L,R to execute a bash, while L,L,L,R executes a heavy downward strike).
I will attempt to explain simply why I am doing this and why it may be helpful.
Generally in development, raw unguided feedback is effort to compile, and the devs generally cannot guide discussion because things rapidly devolve into 'who people perceive the devs to be favoring' or 'people who think the dev's posts agree with them, becoming complacent'.
As a person with little stake in the specific outcome of the combat rework (Cleric) and a decent understanding of how to do this from my career, I am doing my best to do this part for them. Impartially guide the discussion toward a single thing that people in the thread can agree or disagree on smaller issues for a single product.
This way, people can get upset at me, without ever getting upset at Devs and either 'jumping to conclusions' or 'giving useless reactionary feedback', and hopefully continue to have less drama in their own discussions between themselves.
I said I could not judge Vindictus PvE based on the 40 minutes I watched. My issue with addressing you is that you don't generally address anything I say, you just... complain that I said it, or about the way I said it, in a specific rhetoric that normally indicates offense or general antagonism (which as I mentioned, I'm fine with).
Devs don't need to deal with that, but for various reasons it affects me minimally, so I'm glad to offer whatever help I can.
So that's where I stand now. I have watched some Vindictus, I gave a basic breakdown. You have given reactionary responses that don't counter anything I said, only call my judgement or goals or ... normalcy(?) into question. That's fine, but just understand that in my experience in product development, people who react like you are reacting get ignored and end up not contributing, when there's a lot of opportunity for them to do so if they can just stop long enough to offer something other than 'I don't like the way it is now'. And that would be why I am willing to go look for your posts. You seem to be someone who has something to offer to this discussion relative to how the thread started. You're just currently not doing so generally. The ending of your last post is somewhat helpful, since now we know that you consider strings and combos to be a meaningful requirement of your definition of Action Combat.
So, given that, would you say that it is closer to:
"Press the button repeatedly quickly in order to get a specific move to happen, where the actual corresponding strikes either morph as you get deeper into the string, or some don't happen at all and go straight to the attack type"
OR:
"Press different buttons together such as W+Q, S+8, in sequential strings with timing requirements and knowledge of animation cancels"?
The first, I know to be viewed similarly to fighting games, once PVP gets involved, and the majority of people really, really aren't good at fighting games, and are likely to react negatively, but can sometimes be taught to play using the correct tools.
The second, I'm familiar with from different fighting games, and from BDO, where it's punishingly hard to execute for many classes but I'm told is 'very rewarding' (in this case I'll give my opinion, it's... ok... I'd rather play Under Night than my BDO Kunoichi, but I could just be bad at the Kunoichi)
Both these systems could be worked into the current Compilation (The various flaws of both these systems
- DPS weirdness mostly) would be on the devs to resolve), but I'd want to get the opinions of other posters, since many of the new posters today so far just seem to be 'opposing the concept of full Action Combat'.
To those posters, I request, if you see any value in what I said at the beginning of this post, please allow me to try to consolidate and guide this, if it helps the devs even a little. I can watch lots of videos, but can't make long posts like this or read other threads too often, schedule wise, so I figured this is what I can do.
My request therefore is, if you don't want full Action Combat (and now, with the additional clarification of Cypher's definition thereof), what will you accept being added to the MVP/Compilation that can bring things closer to what someone who desires it, wants. What can be put into the basis developed by the original posters in this thread, that will improve things for Trax, Cypher, and others, that won't make you feel like you didn't get what you signed up for?
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I will attempt to explain simply why I am doing this and why it may be helpful.
Generally in development, raw unguided feedback is effort to compile, and the devs generally cannot guide discussion because things rapidly devolve into 'who people perceive the devs to be favoring' or 'people who think the dev's posts agree with them, becoming complacent'.
As a person with little stake in the specific outcome of the combat rework (Cleric) and a decent understanding of how to do this from my career, I am doing my best to do this part for them. Impartially guide the discussion toward a single thing that people in the thread can agree or disagree on smaller issues for a single product.
This way, people can get upset at me, without ever getting upset at Devs and either 'jumping to conclusions' or 'giving useless reactionary feedback', and hopefully continue to have less drama in their own discussions between themselves.
Thanks for clarifying. Still, was coming across a little odd. Seems like something that would make for a really good thread. Just compile all this stuff into the OP of your own thread. But you do you, just again, I don't want words put in my mouth.
I said I could not judge Vindictus PvE based on the 40 minutes I watched.
Perhaps you missed a key word in what I said to you. You "ANNOUNCED" to all, an assertion about what PvE is and what PvP looks to be (you specifically said the PvE looks like watered down monster hunter, right after saying you can't judge it lol). You're not directly replying directly to me with your opinions on that game, you're saying "hey everyone, this is how that game is".
My issue with addressing you is that you don't generally address anything I say, you just... complain that I said it, or about the way I said it, in a specific rhetoric that normally indicates offense or general antagonism (which as I mentioned, I'm fine with).
This brings me to your next point. What I've just said to you was indeed a complaint. It's a fairly legitimate complaint about how you're trying to summarize things for people that they might not want to be summarized. For example, I'd much prefer people look into their own footage or play the game themselves to understand why I used Vindictus to show what I like in action combat.
Now, while this was in fact a complaint, saying that my previous replies to you have been "just complaining that you said it and not addressing what you said" is just utter horse shit. You're now up on a high horse, trying to preach nonsense. I never antagonized you, especially in my first post. My first post absolutely addressed what you said to me. Your first point towards me was trying to tell me (reading it again it feels pretty preachy based on your ongoing attitude actually) to bear in mind that the devs promised X. And I specifically addressed this in my opening sentence to you, then proceeded to expand on the thought.
My second point to you in that first reply began with a statement regarding your wording but then expanded further into answering the question. So generalizing everything I've said into "you only complain about my points you don't address them" is totally false, dishonest and completely discredits you as this supposed neutral RP forum journo you're trying to be. In fact, the irony is you're now the one "complaining" about how I'm engaging with you. And you misunderstood my attitude from the very beginning by assuming I was offended by you or antagonized/antagonizing.
I have watched some Vindictus, I gave a basic breakdown. You have given reactionary responses that don't counter anything I said, only call my judgement or goals or ... normalcy(?) into question.
Can't exactly "counter" what you said directly regarding how you perceived the 40 minutes of gameplay because I have no idea what 40 minutes of footage you watched and I have described combat mechanics. What I could, and did, do was addressed in my first quote in this reply. Spending an awful lot of time countering everything you've said here though, as well as my previous posts even though you claim I didn't, so that should please you.
That's fine, but just understand that in my experience in product development, people who react like you are reacting get ignored and end up not contributing, when there's a lot of opportunity for them to do so if they can just stop long enough to offer something other than 'I don't like the way it is now'.
I've contributed ample information, examples, counters, etc in this post, my previous posts that you tried discounting, and in posts from other threads. I've done much more than simply say "I don't like the way it is now". I've shared why I don't like the way it is now, and I've shared where I want it to go.
So, given that, would you say that it is closer to:
"Press the button repeatedly quickly in order to get a specific move to happen, where the actual corresponding strikes either morph as you get deeper into the string, or some don't happen at all and go straight to the attack type"
To clarify: This is not exactly what I have described, and this is not what is in Vindictus combat. It's pretty hard to convey in a simple manner that when I was describing L, R for example, I wasn't meaning you spam the buttons as quickly as possible to make an attack happen. Every press of L is another basic attack swing, and when you add an R it ends the combo with a heavy attack.
Imagine a tree that begins with a single basic attack. And each basic attack takes you further and further down the tree. At a point, you can add what is called a "smash" which is just a heavy attack, by pressing the RMB. Some branches of this tree, depending on the class, are longer and more complex, while many branches are just as simple as doing 2 or 3 basic attacks followed by a heavy attack. But what this does is it makes the combat more than just "press 4 on your hotbar". It's more engaging, more interesting, more fluid, more fun. You still have a hot bar, as I've said before, filled with very powerful abilities that either do a lot of damage or provide group buffs, etc that have long cooldowns. It's not your bread and butter attacks, just your over-the-top stuff.
"Press different buttons together such as W+Q, S+8, in sequential strings with timing requirements and knowledge of animation cancels"?
I'd honestly be fine with either, because I enjoyed both Vindictus and BDO combat, but I would prefer the former as I described it.
In summary, this is the last insanely huge response I'm going to give, so since you stated you're limited on time (as am I) let's try to keep it to smaller bits from here on out if possible. If you go off the deep end with another mega post I'm likely going to skip it entirely because I think we've said all we need to say. But I'll gladly play along with the original topic of action combat and contribute to your compilation.
I would rather have Left Mouse Button as light attack and right mouse button as a heavier attack than Q Spam too. I understand Q Spam turns into Left Mouse Button Spam in 'Action Mode' but I still dislike the spam in general. A lot of the footage has Q Spam and Q Spam does kill mobs but in terms of nice combat the combat doesn't look nice.
Edit: I'm not sure I want LMB and RMB in Tab Mode though, because I like to move the camera with RMB Held Down and strafe or circle my opponents.
Double Edit: In BDO, I used the hotbar to cycle between Basic Skills and Ascended Skills. I learnt you could use Ascended Weapons and still cast some Basic Skills by using the hotbar. You could switch between the weapons just through a rotation. I also am not a huge fan of BDO Combat though. The Physics/Movement is too wayward and you can quickly burst down players in less than 5 seconds if you're a melee on a caster.
This might be a different take, but I honestly don't care about action vs tab. I've had fun with both and would be fine with either or hybrid. I think something interesting in todays market would be to look back a bit and introduce some old rpg systems into the quality combat systems developed today. The issue with most modern mmo combat systems is its just button mashing and dodging and no adaptiveness based on where you are and the worlds setting. I'm not saying they are bad, they just become flat and the best players are generally younger with better reaction times. I'm thinking of systems like in FFXI. Don't get me wrong the combat was slow and would not work these days but the underlying systems involved in that combat system were by far the best in the genre. Group skillchains or skills different players activated in sequence to create something better and stronger then enhanced further with magic bursts. If its hot a fire spell would hit harder and if it was a magic burst it was deadly. As slow and long the combat was in that game it was never stale. Fights were always different and could change based on situations of the zone and what others players did.
If the boss is fire based, then ice or water skills and enhancements should be used thus changing how you fight with a given skillset. Rotations are fine but most games these days that's all you do is repeat your rotation while dodging mechanics. I mean wouldn't it be cool if you got stuck in an ice block and after, all your fire spells were innate for a period of time and you had to adapt what skills you use. Groups could chain fire type skills together and the boss begins to burn or becomes more afflicted by increased fire attacks. Classic WoW did this as well and players would equip different gear and use different spells on different bosses and its why so many players play that game and just think its all around better than current retail. I want a modern take on rpg systems of combat with the modern pacing of combat. Mesh the old with the new. Fast fun combat with rpg things to think about for every fight and it will feel awesome regardless of style.
First of all I'd like to begin with a complete apology to @Cypher. (Cypher you can skip to Compilation and what comes after, everything after apology to you is explanation to the uninitiated)
Having finally had time to review more of their posts in the Dev Discussion Combat thread, I realize completely that this was not a matter of antagonism, Cypher just communicates like this all the time, and whatever interactions we had mainly came from the problem of communication about a specific part of the model which was less clear to me, regarding a definition.
What was described relative to Vindictus, for example, and is non-obvious when watching certain games, is exactly how the game is controlled, so what the combat looks like may not clearly represent what it feels like.
I'll now move on to one explanation of something that certain readers might not be familiar with, followed by a rehash of the MVP (without most Reasonings, those are on first page).
Since I don't have a specific term for what Cypher appears to be describing, despite familiarity with it from Dead Or Alive fighting game series and others, allow me to use one that is somewhat familiar, and posters can give me one they like better.
Gated Strings
I will explain this only in the precise terms of the fighting game Dead or Alive to avoid confusion and divert focus from any specific MMO.
In that game, you can press Punch (P) or Kick (K), to do basic attacks, along with some direction. Even without any directions, though, PPP in sequence is a specific string of attacks with specific properties (differs by character, not true for every single character). For most characters, this will not repeat the same Punch three times, it will do three different punches, and the second and third punches are sometimes only possible through this string. Similarly, pressing K while standing still is different from pressing P then K, different from PPK, and different from the third strike of PKK.
One has the option to stop at any point, but the requirement stands. One cannot usually get the exact strike and animation and properties of the last strike of PKK string, by doing any other sequence. Often, even doing PPKK will still not give you this outcome even though it contains PKK, because you started with PPK, and now the K has moved from being the third attack, to the fourth attack.
One important thing is that the game is very very lenient about the timing of these, you can just mostly press them with little regard for what is happening on the screen, and the entire string will happen the same way each time, unless you are so slow that your character has time to stop and return to 'neutral'.
With all that said, it's trivial to add this specific aspect of Action Combat to most games as long as you have enough animators on staff, the issue is always with balance, and the effort it takes to learn all the strings, for the player. I will give no opinions on outcomes to the community, but note that if you see a problem with this, please note it, I may be able to clear it up (I spend a nontrivial amount of time teaching people to play these fighting games, Dead or Alive included), or a proper discussion could be had with other posters.
Current Compilation/MVP
1. Directional control over the Q/LMB attack, specifically being able to 'slide attack' left or right with a fixed animation and distance, two separate strikes as the character spins, with no way for both attacks to hit a character except if they chose the same direction at the same time (also probably a S+Q/LMB that doesn't move your character forward).
2. A "Brace" function that locks you for a moment, probably not cancelable, but can be held (I request that posters discuss the concept of an 'on-reaction' counterstrike on hit to take you out of this stance, as I realized that this might be what one of the main posters on the front page might have been hinting at). This Brace would block some portion of damage from the front and reduce chance of CC, attacking players could add the ability to overwhelm this CC reduction to their attacks.
3. A tiny stamina cost for Q/LMB attack and larger Stamina costs for abilities to make the decision of if to keep doing Q/LMB between other skills, a meaningful one, with Stamina regen over time, set to be very slightly less than what you use up 'spamming Q/LMB'
4. (NEW) Addition of a modified form of gated strings, possibly as part of weapon skill trees, or just default (note that generally, to make this type of thing impactful damage wise, they have to have a skilltree cost, but this is at odds to making it impactful in terms of gameplay decisions, where everything is always available and a player's understanding of recovery frames and such, matter more. Usually for balance reasons, this is not allowed to do significantly more damage)
Main note regarding #4:
The person in support of this function, Cypher, has specifically mentioned it in a modified form. Specifically, without the requirement that the second or third Q/LMB should, in itself, be different (please clarify).
As it works now in game, with the two handed sword, the second and third Q attack is actually different animation. The person in my group that I asked, did not indicate that these different animations have any different damage or additional effects, but the current system in place already seems to have the beginnings of this, i.e. different animations and full 'gated strings', and therefore the potential to add more damage or effects.
This may indicate that their plan is to have this type of thing, and possibly to eventually add these effects? The two-handed sword user I asked, indicated that they were using the Action mode at least half the time, and this still made no difference to the effect (but I'd expect this to be so in PvE for balance reasons)
As always, I await corrections. I may post again around the usual time 3 hours from now if there are any, but if they are small, they'll be included in tomorrow's compilation since posters can just read the posts following this one.
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
A lot of people I’ve noticed consider Apoc an example of action combat. Perhaps, in some rudimentary basic nature it is, since it has no targeting. That’s partly why when I mention action combat I usually include the terms “strings” and “combos” to specifically call out those mechanics as being required in “good” action combat. Apoc had about 5 skills, each of which only required one key press, and there were no attack strings (an example of an attack string, using your mouse buttons, would be L,R to execute a bash, while L,L,L,R executes a heavy downward strike).
APOC is what Steven considers action combat.
Weapon Abilities will likely have strings and combos, but we haven't seen the combo mechanic since the first PAX demo. Currently, the Weapon Abilities skill tree is disabled in the UI.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Most of the comments in this thread are focused entirely on what the player is doing, all while forgetting one major thing:
Combat is a 2-way interaction
You can have all the fancy combos and buttons you like but at the end of the day, what really makes a combat system great are the enemies you are fighting. If the enemies you're facing all act the same, move the same and fight the same, then the combat gets very boring very quickly.
This is the problem I have with a lot of mmorpgs - the mobs are just walking target dummies that offer no interest or challenge at all. What's the point in having a fancy combo system if all you need to defeat any mob is spam a single button?
You want to know which game has my favourite combat system? Dark Souls 3. Why? Because of the enemy variety. Even in the starting areas you have such a huge diversity of mobs to fight. You have:
crossbowman (usually hiding behind other mobs but have low max health)
dagger-wielders (attacks with lots of fast slashing attacks)
spearmen with shields (advance slowly, block and counter with longer range)
swordsmen with shields (block often with shield then counter attack)
2-handed axe-wielders (slow but have long range and can take half your health with a single hit)
dogs (run fast, encircle you and lunge from odd angles)
mobs that turn into giant pus monsters if you don't kill them fast enough
Every single one of these mob types have unique fighting styles and need to be handled slightly differently, especially at the start before you get a chance to level up much. Now, compare that to most mmorpgs where all the mobs move and act the same way.
So far, in the Alpha Pre-test, I have seen most of these things play out. Enemy Mages act like mages, attack from far, move away sometimes. Enemy Tanks actually use some defensive abilities while they move and seem to take less damage. So if we assume that is already in, what is it you want out of the feeling? For example, if you are facing an enemy spearman, what do you want to be the challenge on your side?
Example: As Cleric, I'd just back away from them or attempt to evade any lunge attack and use that to get a moment to heal, particularly if I know that they can't use some ability like Javelin due to cooldown. I'd try to use Castigate just before I think they will Javelin, and melee once pulled in, to get my MP back, then 'fake out' trying to escape to get them to Javelin again, then actually escape and heal, since my dodge cooldown would be back. The difficulty would be that since I couldn't dodge twice, I would either take damage while backing off if they also have a charge ability, or I have to use some movement at perfect timing to evade their charge attack (or, if not evade, simply to not be in the same space right after getting hit and hope it didn't get a knockdown).
In this case I would 'need' the side moving Q/LMB to be able to have any real chance of the fight not becoming boring while my Dodge cooldowns are down. Or, if Brace was added, I could decide between 'Brace' and strafing Q/LMB and prevent being knocked down. My opponent could then guess that I would Brace, use forward Q/LMB instead of their charge ability, saving their mana.
(Please note that this isn't a request to use any abilities from the MVP/Compilation at all, but rather to get your input on what you would need beyond what it offers, in order to get the experience you'd want)
Sorry but I have said it before and I'll say it again. The only people that really want action combat over tab target are people that want to play a single player game. You just cant do it in a mmo. Every game that has tried it has turned into a zerg mass of who can aoe the most because you cant really target anyone correctly. That's just for dps, don't get me started on trying to heal that way.....The more people involved the harder it becomes to actually hit anything. You are just firing into a crowd if your doing anything even close to a full scale battle. Sure action combat is fun in 1v1 but go to a real battle and its useless.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Sorry but I have said it before and I'll say it again. The only people that really want action combat over tab target are people that want to play a single player game. You just cant do it in a mmo. Every game that has tried it has turned into a zerg mass of who can aoe the most because you cant really target anyone correctly. That's just for dps, don't get me started on trying to heal that way.....The more people involved the harder it becomes to actually hit anything. You are just firing into a crowd if your doing anything even close to a full scale battle. Sure action combat is fun in 1v1 but go to a real battle and its useless.
I definitely think it's important to temper the expectations and not compare Ashes combat to any single player games too much. A lot of single player games use tricks to make the combat feel more impactful that just don't work in multiplayer settings, such as slowing down the animations on the point of impact (e.g. Batman and Spiderman games) as well as linked animations where 2 on-screen characters do an animation together (e.g. Dark Souls Parry/reposte or the backstabs from Assassin's Creed).
These 2 techniques do a lot to sell the impact of combat and would never work in an mmorpg.
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CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 2021
@Azherae Do you think it would be worth hopping into a chat to screen share some Vindictus gameplay so I can show exactly what I’m referring to with an explanation as to what’s going on? Someone like you could probably manage to word it in a way that people would understand and possibly get on board with. I’ve realized how difficult it is to explain in words, the more I try the more complicated it seems and it’s actually a rather simple system, but when I explain it I guess it sounds like Dead or Alive, Mortal Kombat or other fighting games, which by the way I’m really bad at and do not like, so that’s not the system I’m advocating for here!
@Cypher - it probably would, just really hard to set up, for various reasons. Even then it might still be worth it, because I'm watching tutorial videos and got a bit of wiki reading done and I still don't get it, but I can see that there's something there. For now though, is there any video on YouTube or similar that you can point me at that is more of a guide to how to play a specific character or class, or something? I can't seem to find good ones because I don't know what to look for.
@Starcry - Note that the only reason I haven't applied things relative to your post is that I'm trying to sort my own bias. I also consider FFXI one of the most immersive systems possible and feel like all MMOs should strive toward something similar, but it's precisely because of this long-held opinion, and the 'distance' between where the Compilation is now, and 'Two sequential spells perfectly Magic Burst off a Fusion Skillchain while the Thief gets the last few hits to build the TP required to close the Light SC at the last possible moment with SATA Shark Bite so the mages have enough time to cast their Thunder spells for the kill'.
I've studied how to theoretically get another MMO to that point, starting from various points, and it's precisely because I've done so much iteration on those design principles, that I can't offer unbiased iteration of your opinion easily. Ashes does have the potential to do things like this, though, the systems are there, it's moreso that Augments will be what drives that, moreso than a base combat system. I'll hope you're around when they're taking feedback on that, because they're going to need a lot of it.
Sorry but I have said it before and I'll say it again. The only people that really want action combat over tab target are people that want to play a single player game. You just cant do it in a mmo. Every game that has tried it has turned into a zerg mass of who can aoe the most because you cant really target anyone correctly. That's just for dps, don't get me started on trying to heal that way.....The more people involved the harder it becomes to actually hit anything. You are just firing into a crowd if your doing anything even close to a full scale battle. Sure action combat is fun in 1v1 but go to a real battle and its useless.
Those people, such as myself, want an MMO that breaks the mold. I've played enough multiplayer games to know that it can work if done correctly. And you're really going to tell me that tab-target doesn't turn into an AOE fest during large engagements? C'mon, man....
Just spot tested the game. The game rubber bands still. Combat Arcs are buggy, abilities don't fire all the time but action mode plays better than tab target mode. Rubber banding makes the combat worse of course and the 'ability arcs' often fail no matter where you place your toon. They have changed the Q Spam and now you just hold down Q or LMB, it is easier to perform on LMB which is why action mode plays smoother in melee right now. You still move forward with Q or LMB unless you push hard against the target. You don't move forward when you push against the target but it means you are pretty static.
No tab target games dont turn into aoe zergs because you can actually target people.... they dont disappear just because they ran into a crowd. You also have not played any mmo that has action combat that does it right nor is action combat breaking any molds.... its been around forever and any mmo that has used it fails. You literally cant heal or dps anything in an action combat game that doesnt have a targeting system that locks on to a player.... plain and simple it works in 1 v 1 s but anything greater than that and its a sperg aoe mess. just look at eso... its literally nothing but zerg vrs zerg with whoever does the most aoe wins. No thank you I dont want that kind of pvp.
No full update today, just a minor one following today's spot testing.
The current system has not, as yet, seemed to go in a different direction than the Compilation, in a way that would disqualify it from being a test case (or rather, being the current or next test case).
@ColdGrayRain - A request for an opinion. Assume you had a Ranger or Mage with an ability that gives some debuff, that only gives the debuff if used in Action mode. Assume that there is a carefully positioned Tank between that character, and their target, that will take the hit instead if the Mage/Ranger does this attack, but in Tab Target, the attack hits without the debuff.
Is the 'Action Combat' potential of 'the Tank and Mage/Ranger interplay, worth the effort, in your mind? This is one of the primary things that 'Hybrid Combat' could lead to, even in the most basic forms. Would you say to not bother with this because the downsides would outweigh the benefits of this gameplay? Do you even consider this type of gameplay to be 'a benefit'?
No it would not be worth the effort. I see this type of thing used a lot to try and justify skill shots. It never works that way and always reverts to the most basic game play of aoe zergs. It may work in an arena setting but in wvw where there will be hundreds of players it always fails. The problem is that no one is able to do any real dps to a single target due to the waves of body blocking and so no one ever dies because everyone is spamming aoe heals and aoe dps. You can see tons of this happening in any eso video where they showcase anything that has more than 20 players. Im sorry but I really dont want to see zerg trains become meta in wvw like they are in every other mmo with action combat.
Today's update is not based on comments, but on finding time to get together with a teammate and watch them play Vindictus (new character from start)
Rather than specifically speak about the game, as they played for only an hour or so (which, similar to BDO and other games, just levels you rapidly), I will make a clarification of something I said earlier about the game which is likely to come up, moving forward. This is not a claim that this is how it works in Vindictus. Like I said, an hour or so.
Hitstop
The concept is simple. When your opponent lands hits, you get staggered out of your own attack, and have to wait. People don't like this. It isn't generally found in MMOs. It's common in fighting games, which is why many people are bad at them. The first thing you learn in most fighting games is simple.
"My opponent has hit me, I now need to regain my footing and defend and wait for them to push me out of their range with their attacks, or until the start-up of their next attack is slow enough for me to escape or use a quick attack of my own."
Most people don't learn this either. We want to react. We don't want hitstop. We want it such that when we press a button, the thing we want to do, happens. In fighting games, this means most people try to hit the button for their own attack. And it is slower than the opponent's attack. And they get hit again, and lose this way 'without getting to do anything'. Most MMOs are nicer, they let you keep attacking even if your opponent is pummeling you, so you focus on either doing more damage than them or dodging their actual abilities. This is why they turn into 'Spreadsheet contests' or mobility spam. It is why they have 'rotations' and why stuns and CC are so important, because normal hits have no hitstop, you can't stagger other people, you 'need' to use your CC as soon as the opponent is in position because it's almost always max DPS to do so. If you can prevent one of their abilities, all the better.
Without hitstop, zerging increases massively in effectiveness. A dragon whose claw swipe does X damage to one person is a sponge. A dragon whose claw swipe interrupts the attack of everyone in its cone, pushing them back slightly, which also does a downward wingflap or ability if too many players try to move out of the range of the claw, is a fight, but is it an annoying one? If you are 'animation locked' because you got hit and have to wait for your next attack to start after your hitstop, games change. Drastically.
I made the generalization that Vindictus appeared to be 'watered down Monster Hunter' for this reason. In the PvE videos I watched, enemies do damage, but have no hitstop on their attacks. Disregarding the question of if that game is actually like that or not, the thing that would have to be addressed is, 'how do you have meaningful action combat without hitstop, that doesn't turn into either a Spreadsheet Comparison, AimBot Paradise, or Mobility Spam?'
As usual, I will not offer any answer myself. This isn't to say that I don't have answers to questions, only that I don't want to influence the conversation more than necessary. I will give my design knowledge only if directly asked, and even then, as neutrally as possible, I hope.
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 2021
Or you can stun, snare, root and kite.
No need for spreadsheets.
Right, that's how BDO works. First you use an 'engage', then you use a stun, do damage while they are stunned, then knock them away from you and root them so that they don't get to counterattack you or move while you prepare your next big CC (usually a slow so that they can't dodge properly or kite), and then you use your Super Armored large attack which is almost sure to hit, and dash through or past. If they survived due to having equal gear or something, now you're in position to kite them until the cooldowns on those abilities come back up, or if you have another CC of any kind, hit them with it quickly if they try to attack you, otherwise just ping them with ranged attacks to keep their health low until they stop moving to heal and then CC them.
BDO becomes a fighting game precisely because those things are very effective substitutes for hitstop. Games with less of the options you mentioned have fights that last longer, but balance is normally terrible (because whoever managed to use all theirs first has the damage advantage while those things are on cooldown)
What I'm saying in response to Dygz is that if you have enough stun, snare, root and kite to say 'no need for spreadsheets', you now have hitstop. @Dygz, are you taking the position of 'I am okay with this, this is the skill part', and if you don't mind me asking, have you played BDO?
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I haven't played BDO. If I recall correctly, BDO did not allow me to create characters with "African" features, so I didn't play it.
My position is that spreadsheets aren't ever necessary. Just some people love to use them.
In tabletop RPGs, we call this roll play v roleplay.
Gamers are especially prone to trying to max everything for the most uber, time-efficient combat - at the expense of everything else an RPG has to offer. So, yeah, lots of gamers love spreadsheets.
But, you don't really have to have them to devise successful strategies or tactics.
The focus of Ashes of Creation is on objective-based PvP combat rather than on 1v1 battles.
So, Ashes is not really trying to be a "fighting game".
I don't know what you mean by AimBot or Mobility Spam.
Those are not things I think about when playing an RPG.
If I am an Ice Wizard, I'm thinking about how I can use Ice to freeze/root or freeze/snare or icy/trip/prone my targets. As well as pummeling them with giant balls of Ice.
If I am a Feral Druid, I'm thinking about how I can bite, rip, pounce, tear and fear my opponents while contemplating whether I should augment my armor with Barkskin.
If my Ice Wizard is in group direct combat, I will be trying to pay attention to what my teammates are doing so we can synch our abilities. Can I stack my freeze/root with the Ranger's Root? Do I have an Ice/DoT that can stack with the Rogue's Bleed? Can I use Ice to make an opponent prone so that the Rogue can Backstab?
If it's a siege, I'm going to be ignoring people and trying to acquire or destroy objectives.
I definitely don't need spreadsheets for any of that.
Even in tabletop RPGs, I typically avoid combat as much as possible, so in MMORPGs, I usually focus on Stealth, roots, snares and kiting. I never think of RPGs as fighting games.
I also don't think about the "skill" part.
What I'm thinking about is how to best play the role of my character.
Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning, is about the best immersion I've felt - it takes me out of my typical playstyle and has me striving to use Sneak to trigger the throat-slicing animation - complete with blood spray. Whereas most games I am a carebear. I also enjoy using Sneak to Pick Pocket, though in other games, I never Pick Pocket.
Valheim has been the 2nd best for immersion...it's not even an RPG. But, I also like Sneak and backstab in that game. And I love bouncing opponents off my Shield(s) and eviscerating them while their trying to recover their balance.
In both cases, effective use of Sneak along with the visuals of the subsequent attacks have me actively seeking (PvE) combat.
There is some player skill to choosing where to place points in abilities. There is some player skill in effectively Sneaking.
I kind of prefer not to have rotations, but...where there are cooldowns, there are rotations.
I feel like combat can be compared to a good conversation.
Bad conversations:
Both people trying to talk at the same time, whoever talks louder wins.
Good conversations:
Parties prompt the other, listening and following up on each others thoughts, interject/interrupt, provoke/concede, pause/consider, explain/express - just a fuller acknowledgement of the other party and what they can do.
@Dygz - Thanks very much for the input, your wishes seem to align directly with what Steven has implied Ashes should be like, my concern is: if they receive enough feedback from people who might not understand how very small things influence gameplay of this type, you won't get that.
I think that most people want what you want or something close, but there are literally dozens of easy-to-miss pitfalls on the path to it, especially if many of the more vocal people are trying to get a specific thing out of 1v1 Action combat. I hope this discussion can continue to lead to what you've outlined.
I won't ask you to go try to play BDO, I think your wish is really clear. I ask that you trust me for a bit on 'how easy it is to mess up the enjoyability of what you wish'. However, do note that there is now a new class in BDO, the 'Hashashin', that might finally give you the appearance (and maybe even the gameplay type, based on what you said) that you'd like, if you happen to drift that way.
@maouw - I believe that, at the moment, most of us agree on this, just not how to get there, but I could be wrong, since, actually, I don't think I've seen many objections to the current Compilation, just people adding their philosophical thoughts just as you are.
Let me know if there's anything in the compilation that you disagree with. As of now, the last livestream told us that there will be 'split body' attacks coming soon (your character's legs can move in any direction while you swing your weapon). This is likely to lead things closer to what @Trax mentioned, but (entirely personally now) I'm concerned about this. I want to have faith, but that's literally the path with the maximum number of pitfalls...
@Dygz - Thanks very much for the input, your wishes seem to align directly with what Steven has implied Ashes should be like, my concern is: if they receive enough feedback from people who might not understand how very small things influence gameplay of this type, you won't get that.
I think that most people want what you want or something close, but there are literally dozens of easy-to-miss pitfalls on the path to it, especially if many of the more vocal people are trying to get a specific thing out of 1v1 Action combat. I hope this discussion can continue to lead to what you've outlined.
I won't ask you to go try to play BDO, I think your wish is really clear. I ask that you trust me for a bit on 'how easy it is to mess up the enjoyability of what you wish'. However, do note that there is now a new class in BDO, the 'Hashashin', that might finally give you the appearance (and maybe even the gameplay type, based on what you said) that you'd like, if you happen to drift that way.
@maouw - I believe that, at the moment, most of us agree on this, just not how to get there, but I could be wrong, since, actually, I don't think I've seen many objections to the current Compilation, just people adding their philosophical thoughts just as you are.
Let me know if there's anything in the compilation that you disagree with. As of now, the last livestream told us that there will be 'split body' attacks coming soon (your character's legs can move in any direction while you swing your weapon). This is likely to lead things closer to what @Trax mentioned, but (entirely personally now) I'm concerned about this. I want to have faith, but that's literally the path with the maximum number of pitfalls...
I feel your concern. But I'm hopeful that their previous attempts at both with and without split-body animation means they have better insight into it this time around - I'm curious what prompted them to go back?
Also, I'm ready for your next "gushing of praise" post
No tab target games dont turn into aoe zergs because you can actually target people.... they dont disappear just because they ran into a crowd. You also have not played any mmo that has action combat that does it right nor is action combat breaking any molds.... its been around forever and any mmo that has used it fails. You literally cant heal or dps anything in an action combat game that doesnt have a targeting system that locks on to a player.... plain and simple it works in 1 v 1 s but anything greater than that and its a sperg aoe mess. just look at eso... its literally nothing but zerg vrs zerg with whoever does the most aoe wins. No thank you I dont want that kind of pvp.
Well, if you lose track of or allow the person you're fighting to break off into a crowd, that's on you. Now I'm not sure if this is a joke but saying all action combat MMO's fail is probably the most obvious sign that you're speaking from a place of bias. Ever heard of Black Desert Online? C'mon. And the problem with ESO is ESO, can't fault a combat system (that's actually tab-target lite.) because of the game it's used in is poorly balanced. I would like you to enlighten me as to what MMO supposedly doesn't have 'zerging' problems with large scale PVP, though.
@Merek - It is a little disingenuous to say that BDO is successful as an MMO within the genre/type that Ashes is almost objectively striving towards. By their own admission their class balance is quite bad, even their large scale PvP was functionally ruined as far as most players were concerned just recently, and while the game has quite a few 'active players', understand that BDO builds its metrics almost solely by manipulating the player to literally never log off.
I'm not saying that people don't enjoy BDO. Or its combat. Or even that they don't form guilds and play together. But to say that the game as a whole is immersive in any way, or healthy in terms of player interactions, is ... I'm just gonna say it's straight up wrong. The combat is not necessarily 'the reason' for this, but it definitely does not help the cause.
I feel your concern. But I'm hopeful that their previous attempts at both with and without split-body animation means they have better insight into it this time around - I'm curious what prompted them to go back?
Also, I'm ready for your next "gushing of praise" post
I can't say, I hope they didn't go back just because 'people don't like being stuck in place', because that won't actually solve the problem, in my experience, it will create a much larger, more annoying one, that will be harder to catch, raising the chances that it will be pushed too far and then it might be 'too late'. I really, really hope it isn't just that...
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Today's update is not based on comments, but on finding time to get together with a teammate and watch them play Vindictus (new character from start)
Rather than specifically speak about the game, as they played for only an hour or so (which, similar to BDO and other games, just levels you rapidly), I will make a clarification of something I said earlier about the game which is likely to come up, moving forward. This is not a claim that this is how it works in Vindictus. Like I said, an hour or so.
Hitstop
The concept is simple. When your opponent lands hits, you get staggered out of your own attack, and have to wait. People don't like this. It isn't generally found in MMOs. It's common in fighting games, which is why many people are bad at them. The first thing you learn in most fighting games is simple.
"My opponent has hit me, I now need to regain my footing and defend and wait for them to push me out of their range with their attacks, or until the start-up of their next attack is slow enough for me to escape or use a quick attack of my own."
Most people don't learn this either. We want to react. We don't want hitstop. We want it such that when we press a button, the thing we want to do, happens. In fighting games, this means most people try to hit the button for their own attack. And it is slower than the opponent's attack. And they get hit again, and lose this way 'without getting to do anything'. Most MMOs are nicer, they let you keep attacking even if your opponent is pummeling you, so you focus on either doing more damage than them or dodging their actual abilities. This is why they turn into 'Spreadsheet contests' or mobility spam. It is why they have 'rotations' and why stuns and CC are so important, because normal hits have no hitstop, you can't stagger other people, you 'need' to use your CC as soon as the opponent is in position because it's almost always max DPS to do so. If you can prevent one of their abilities, all the better.
Without hitstop, zerging increases massively in effectiveness. A dragon whose claw swipe does X damage to one person is a sponge. A dragon whose claw swipe interrupts the attack of everyone in its cone, pushing them back slightly, which also does a downward wingflap or ability if too many players try to move out of the range of the claw, is a fight, but is it an annoying one? If you are 'animation locked' because you got hit and have to wait for your next attack to start after your hitstop, games change. Drastically.
I made the generalization that Vindictus appeared to be 'watered down Monster Hunter' for this reason. In the PvE videos I watched, enemies do damage, but have no hitstop on their attacks. Disregarding the question of if that game is actually like that or not, the thing that would have to be addressed is, 'how do you have meaningful action combat without hitstop, that doesn't turn into either a Spreadsheet Comparison, AimBot Paradise, or Mobility Spam?'
As usual, I will not offer any answer myself. This isn't to say that I don't have answers to questions, only that I don't want to influence the conversation more than necessary. I will give my design knowledge only if directly asked, and even then, as neutrally as possible, I hope.
If there was hitstop in Ashes, combat would come down to whoever strikes first, wins. Given how much you can spam your weapon attacks, you could effectively stagger-lock your opponent from 100-0. That is neither fun nor engaging gameplay.
Hitstop "works" in fighting games because it's 1v1, and even if you don't get the first hit off there was ways to recover if you know what you're doing. That isn't the case for Ashes. Just look at what happened to Steven in the siege footage they showed off yesterday. With no diminishing returns on CC, he got stunlocked to death multiple times, even when he gave himself an absurd amount of health.
"How do you have meaningful action combat without hitstop?"
That's the golden question isn't it. I agree with @maouw that combat should feel like a good conversation, but how to achieve that? For me the key to good combat is in counter-play. For every mechanic there should be a counter. So for example, if you are facing crowd control there needs to be ways to break out of that crowd control. If your opponent has a way of quickly closing distance, you need a way to increase the distance, and vice versa.
There also shouldn't be any way for an opponent of equal gear and level to 100-0 you without an opportunity to fight back - That is bad game design.
Comments
When did I say I was offended? Also, why are you speaking for other people (namely me) here? Are you RP-ing a herald or a forum journalist or something? It’s just a bit strange if I’m being honest. I can’t tell if I should be flattered or weirded out that you’re trying to summarize everything I’ve said about action combat. I guess if you do somehow find the time and do it justice, more power to you. Especially if it somehow gets the final product to be closer to what I want out of the game. Final thing I have to say to you would be you can’t try to ‘announce’ to everyone “who is not aware” that a game “plays a certain way” and then simultaneously state you’ve merely found some random 40 minutes of footage from god knows where.
Anyways, @Trax I took a peak at the footage you linked. It’s certainly close to Apoc at least, but sadly that’s not what I’m hoping for. A lot of people I’ve noticed consider Apoc an example of action combat. Perhaps, in some rudimentary basic nature it is, since it has no targeting. That’s partly why when I mention action combat I usually include the terms “strings” and “combos” to specifically call out those mechanics as being required in “good” action combat. Apoc had about 5 skills, each of which only required one key press, and there were no attack strings (an example of an attack string, using your mouse buttons, would be L,R to execute a bash, while L,L,L,R executes a heavy downward strike).
Generally in development, raw unguided feedback is effort to compile, and the devs generally cannot guide discussion because things rapidly devolve into 'who people perceive the devs to be favoring' or 'people who think the dev's posts agree with them, becoming complacent'.
As a person with little stake in the specific outcome of the combat rework (Cleric) and a decent understanding of how to do this from my career, I am doing my best to do this part for them. Impartially guide the discussion toward a single thing that people in the thread can agree or disagree on smaller issues for a single product.
This way, people can get upset at me, without ever getting upset at Devs and either 'jumping to conclusions' or 'giving useless reactionary feedback', and hopefully continue to have less drama in their own discussions between themselves.
As for your specific points, @Cypher .
I said I could not judge Vindictus PvE based on the 40 minutes I watched. My issue with addressing you is that you don't generally address anything I say, you just... complain that I said it, or about the way I said it, in a specific rhetoric that normally indicates offense or general antagonism (which as I mentioned, I'm fine with).
Devs don't need to deal with that, but for various reasons it affects me minimally, so I'm glad to offer whatever help I can.
So that's where I stand now. I have watched some Vindictus, I gave a basic breakdown. You have given reactionary responses that don't counter anything I said, only call my judgement or goals or ... normalcy(?) into question. That's fine, but just understand that in my experience in product development, people who react like you are reacting get ignored and end up not contributing, when there's a lot of opportunity for them to do so if they can just stop long enough to offer something other than 'I don't like the way it is now'. And that would be why I am willing to go look for your posts. You seem to be someone who has something to offer to this discussion relative to how the thread started. You're just currently not doing so generally. The ending of your last post is somewhat helpful, since now we know that you consider strings and combos to be a meaningful requirement of your definition of Action Combat.
So, given that, would you say that it is closer to:
"Press the button repeatedly quickly in order to get a specific move to happen, where the actual corresponding strikes either morph as you get deeper into the string, or some don't happen at all and go straight to the attack type"
OR:
"Press different buttons together such as W+Q, S+8, in sequential strings with timing requirements and knowledge of animation cancels"?
The first, I know to be viewed similarly to fighting games, once PVP gets involved, and the majority of people really, really aren't good at fighting games, and are likely to react negatively, but can sometimes be taught to play using the correct tools.
The second, I'm familiar with from different fighting games, and from BDO, where it's punishingly hard to execute for many classes but I'm told is 'very rewarding' (in this case I'll give my opinion, it's... ok... I'd rather play Under Night than my BDO Kunoichi, but I could just be bad at the Kunoichi)
Both these systems could be worked into the current Compilation (The various flaws of both these systems
- DPS weirdness mostly) would be on the devs to resolve), but I'd want to get the opinions of other posters, since many of the new posters today so far just seem to be 'opposing the concept of full Action Combat'.
To those posters, I request, if you see any value in what I said at the beginning of this post, please allow me to try to consolidate and guide this, if it helps the devs even a little. I can watch lots of videos, but can't make long posts like this or read other threads too often, schedule wise, so I figured this is what I can do.
My request therefore is, if you don't want full Action Combat (and now, with the additional clarification of Cypher's definition thereof), what will you accept being added to the MVP/Compilation that can bring things closer to what someone who desires it, wants. What can be put into the basis developed by the original posters in this thread, that will improve things for Trax, Cypher, and others, that won't make you feel like you didn't get what you signed up for?
Thanks for clarifying. Still, was coming across a little odd. Seems like something that would make for a really good thread. Just compile all this stuff into the OP of your own thread. But you do you, just again, I don't want words put in my mouth.
Perhaps you missed a key word in what I said to you. You "ANNOUNCED" to all, an assertion about what PvE is and what PvP looks to be (you specifically said the PvE looks like watered down monster hunter, right after saying you can't judge it lol). You're not directly replying directly to me with your opinions on that game, you're saying "hey everyone, this is how that game is".
This brings me to your next point. What I've just said to you was indeed a complaint. It's a fairly legitimate complaint about how you're trying to summarize things for people that they might not want to be summarized. For example, I'd much prefer people look into their own footage or play the game themselves to understand why I used Vindictus to show what I like in action combat.
Now, while this was in fact a complaint, saying that my previous replies to you have been "just complaining that you said it and not addressing what you said" is just utter horse shit. You're now up on a high horse, trying to preach nonsense. I never antagonized you, especially in my first post. My first post absolutely addressed what you said to me. Your first point towards me was trying to tell me (reading it again it feels pretty preachy based on your ongoing attitude actually) to bear in mind that the devs promised X. And I specifically addressed this in my opening sentence to you, then proceeded to expand on the thought.
My second point to you in that first reply began with a statement regarding your wording but then expanded further into answering the question. So generalizing everything I've said into "you only complain about my points you don't address them" is totally false, dishonest and completely discredits you as this supposed neutral RP forum journo you're trying to be. In fact, the irony is you're now the one "complaining" about how I'm engaging with you. And you misunderstood my attitude from the very beginning by assuming I was offended by you or antagonized/antagonizing.
Can't exactly "counter" what you said directly regarding how you perceived the 40 minutes of gameplay because I have no idea what 40 minutes of footage you watched and I have described combat mechanics. What I could, and did, do was addressed in my first quote in this reply. Spending an awful lot of time countering everything you've said here though, as well as my previous posts even though you claim I didn't, so that should please you.
I've contributed ample information, examples, counters, etc in this post, my previous posts that you tried discounting, and in posts from other threads. I've done much more than simply say "I don't like the way it is now". I've shared why I don't like the way it is now, and I've shared where I want it to go.
To clarify: This is not exactly what I have described, and this is not what is in Vindictus combat. It's pretty hard to convey in a simple manner that when I was describing L, R for example, I wasn't meaning you spam the buttons as quickly as possible to make an attack happen. Every press of L is another basic attack swing, and when you add an R it ends the combo with a heavy attack.
Imagine a tree that begins with a single basic attack. And each basic attack takes you further and further down the tree. At a point, you can add what is called a "smash" which is just a heavy attack, by pressing the RMB. Some branches of this tree, depending on the class, are longer and more complex, while many branches are just as simple as doing 2 or 3 basic attacks followed by a heavy attack. But what this does is it makes the combat more than just "press 4 on your hotbar". It's more engaging, more interesting, more fluid, more fun. You still have a hot bar, as I've said before, filled with very powerful abilities that either do a lot of damage or provide group buffs, etc that have long cooldowns. It's not your bread and butter attacks, just your over-the-top stuff.
So if you instead are asking if I want this ^^^^^
OR:
I'd honestly be fine with either, because I enjoyed both Vindictus and BDO combat, but I would prefer the former as I described it.
In summary, this is the last insanely huge response I'm going to give, so since you stated you're limited on time (as am I) let's try to keep it to smaller bits from here on out if possible. If you go off the deep end with another mega post I'm likely going to skip it entirely because I think we've said all we need to say. But I'll gladly play along with the original topic of action combat and contribute to your compilation.
Edit: I'm not sure I want LMB and RMB in Tab Mode though, because I like to move the camera with RMB Held Down and strafe or circle my opponents.
Double Edit: In BDO, I used the hotbar to cycle between Basic Skills and Ascended Skills. I learnt you could use Ascended Weapons and still cast some Basic Skills by using the hotbar. You could switch between the weapons just through a rotation. I also am not a huge fan of BDO Combat though. The Physics/Movement is too wayward and you can quickly burst down players in less than 5 seconds if you're a melee on a caster.
If the boss is fire based, then ice or water skills and enhancements should be used thus changing how you fight with a given skillset. Rotations are fine but most games these days that's all you do is repeat your rotation while dodging mechanics. I mean wouldn't it be cool if you got stuck in an ice block and after, all your fire spells were innate for a period of time and you had to adapt what skills you use. Groups could chain fire type skills together and the boss begins to burn or becomes more afflicted by increased fire attacks. Classic WoW did this as well and players would equip different gear and use different spells on different bosses and its why so many players play that game and just think its all around better than current retail. I want a modern take on rpg systems of combat with the modern pacing of combat. Mesh the old with the new. Fast fun combat with rpg things to think about for every fight and it will feel awesome regardless of style.
Having finally had time to review more of their posts in the Dev Discussion Combat thread, I realize completely that this was not a matter of antagonism, Cypher just communicates like this all the time, and whatever interactions we had mainly came from the problem of communication about a specific part of the model which was less clear to me, regarding a definition.
What was described relative to Vindictus, for example, and is non-obvious when watching certain games, is exactly how the game is controlled, so what the combat looks like may not clearly represent what it feels like.
I'll now move on to one explanation of something that certain readers might not be familiar with, followed by a rehash of the MVP (without most Reasonings, those are on first page).
Since I don't have a specific term for what Cypher appears to be describing, despite familiarity with it from Dead Or Alive fighting game series and others, allow me to use one that is somewhat familiar, and posters can give me one they like better.
Gated Strings
I will explain this only in the precise terms of the fighting game Dead or Alive to avoid confusion and divert focus from any specific MMO.
In that game, you can press Punch (P) or Kick (K), to do basic attacks, along with some direction. Even without any directions, though, PPP in sequence is a specific string of attacks with specific properties (differs by character, not true for every single character). For most characters, this will not repeat the same Punch three times, it will do three different punches, and the second and third punches are sometimes only possible through this string. Similarly, pressing K while standing still is different from pressing P then K, different from PPK, and different from the third strike of PKK.
One has the option to stop at any point, but the requirement stands. One cannot usually get the exact strike and animation and properties of the last strike of PKK string, by doing any other sequence. Often, even doing PPKK will still not give you this outcome even though it contains PKK, because you started with PPK, and now the K has moved from being the third attack, to the fourth attack.
One important thing is that the game is very very lenient about the timing of these, you can just mostly press them with little regard for what is happening on the screen, and the entire string will happen the same way each time, unless you are so slow that your character has time to stop and return to 'neutral'.
With all that said, it's trivial to add this specific aspect of Action Combat to most games as long as you have enough animators on staff, the issue is always with balance, and the effort it takes to learn all the strings, for the player. I will give no opinions on outcomes to the community, but note that if you see a problem with this, please note it, I may be able to clear it up (I spend a nontrivial amount of time teaching people to play these fighting games, Dead or Alive included), or a proper discussion could be had with other posters.
Current Compilation/MVP
1. Directional control over the Q/LMB attack, specifically being able to 'slide attack' left or right with a fixed animation and distance, two separate strikes as the character spins, with no way for both attacks to hit a character except if they chose the same direction at the same time (also probably a S+Q/LMB that doesn't move your character forward).
2. A "Brace" function that locks you for a moment, probably not cancelable, but can be held (I request that posters discuss the concept of an 'on-reaction' counterstrike on hit to take you out of this stance, as I realized that this might be what one of the main posters on the front page might have been hinting at). This Brace would block some portion of damage from the front and reduce chance of CC, attacking players could add the ability to overwhelm this CC reduction to their attacks.
3. A tiny stamina cost for Q/LMB attack and larger Stamina costs for abilities to make the decision of if to keep doing Q/LMB between other skills, a meaningful one, with Stamina regen over time, set to be very slightly less than what you use up 'spamming Q/LMB'
4. (NEW) Addition of a modified form of gated strings, possibly as part of weapon skill trees, or just default (note that generally, to make this type of thing impactful damage wise, they have to have a skilltree cost, but this is at odds to making it impactful in terms of gameplay decisions, where everything is always available and a player's understanding of recovery frames and such, matter more. Usually for balance reasons, this is not allowed to do significantly more damage)
Main note regarding #4:
The person in support of this function, Cypher, has specifically mentioned it in a modified form. Specifically, without the requirement that the second or third Q/LMB should, in itself, be different (please clarify).
As it works now in game, with the two handed sword, the second and third Q attack is actually different animation. The person in my group that I asked, did not indicate that these different animations have any different damage or additional effects, but the current system in place already seems to have the beginnings of this, i.e. different animations and full 'gated strings', and therefore the potential to add more damage or effects.
This may indicate that their plan is to have this type of thing, and possibly to eventually add these effects? The two-handed sword user I asked, indicated that they were using the Action mode at least half the time, and this still made no difference to the effect (but I'd expect this to be so in PvE for balance reasons)
As always, I await corrections. I may post again around the usual time 3 hours from now if there are any, but if they are small, they'll be included in tomorrow's compilation since posters can just read the posts following this one.
Weapon Abilities will likely have strings and combos, but we haven't seen the combo mechanic since the first PAX demo. Currently, the Weapon Abilities skill tree is disabled in the UI.
You can have all the fancy combos and buttons you like but at the end of the day, what really makes a combat system great are the enemies you are fighting. If the enemies you're facing all act the same, move the same and fight the same, then the combat gets very boring very quickly.
This is the problem I have with a lot of mmorpgs - the mobs are just walking target dummies that offer no interest or challenge at all. What's the point in having a fancy combo system if all you need to defeat any mob is spam a single button?
You want to know which game has my favourite combat system? Dark Souls 3. Why? Because of the enemy variety. Even in the starting areas you have such a huge diversity of mobs to fight. You have:
Every single one of these mob types have unique fighting styles and need to be handled slightly differently, especially at the start before you get a chance to level up much. Now, compare that to most mmorpgs where all the mobs move and act the same way.
Example: As Cleric, I'd just back away from them or attempt to evade any lunge attack and use that to get a moment to heal, particularly if I know that they can't use some ability like Javelin due to cooldown. I'd try to use Castigate just before I think they will Javelin, and melee once pulled in, to get my MP back, then 'fake out' trying to escape to get them to Javelin again, then actually escape and heal, since my dodge cooldown would be back. The difficulty would be that since I couldn't dodge twice, I would either take damage while backing off if they also have a charge ability, or I have to use some movement at perfect timing to evade their charge attack (or, if not evade, simply to not be in the same space right after getting hit and hope it didn't get a knockdown).
In this case I would 'need' the side moving Q/LMB to be able to have any real chance of the fight not becoming boring while my Dodge cooldowns are down. Or, if Brace was added, I could decide between 'Brace' and strafing Q/LMB and prevent being knocked down. My opponent could then guess that I would Brace, use forward Q/LMB instead of their charge ability, saving their mana.
(Please note that this isn't a request to use any abilities from the MVP/Compilation at all, but rather to get your input on what you would need beyond what it offers, in order to get the experience you'd want)
I definitely think it's important to temper the expectations and not compare Ashes combat to any single player games too much. A lot of single player games use tricks to make the combat feel more impactful that just don't work in multiplayer settings, such as slowing down the animations on the point of impact (e.g. Batman and Spiderman games) as well as linked animations where 2 on-screen characters do an animation together (e.g. Dark Souls Parry/reposte or the backstabs from Assassin's Creed).
These 2 techniques do a lot to sell the impact of combat and would never work in an mmorpg.
@Starcry - Note that the only reason I haven't applied things relative to your post is that I'm trying to sort my own bias. I also consider FFXI one of the most immersive systems possible and feel like all MMOs should strive toward something similar, but it's precisely because of this long-held opinion, and the 'distance' between where the Compilation is now, and 'Two sequential spells perfectly Magic Burst off a Fusion Skillchain while the Thief gets the last few hits to build the TP required to close the Light SC at the last possible moment with SATA Shark Bite so the mages have enough time to cast their Thunder spells for the kill'.
I've studied how to theoretically get another MMO to that point, starting from various points, and it's precisely because I've done so much iteration on those design principles, that I can't offer unbiased iteration of your opinion easily. Ashes does have the potential to do things like this, though, the systems are there, it's moreso that Augments will be what drives that, moreso than a base combat system. I'll hope you're around when they're taking feedback on that, because they're going to need a lot of it.
For now, back to the spot testing...
Those people, such as myself, want an MMO that breaks the mold. I've played enough multiplayer games to know that it can work if done correctly. And you're really going to tell me that tab-target doesn't turn into an AOE fest during large engagements? C'mon, man....
The current system has not, as yet, seemed to go in a different direction than the Compilation, in a way that would disqualify it from being a test case (or rather, being the current or next test case).
@ColdGrayRain - A request for an opinion. Assume you had a Ranger or Mage with an ability that gives some debuff, that only gives the debuff if used in Action mode. Assume that there is a carefully positioned Tank between that character, and their target, that will take the hit instead if the Mage/Ranger does this attack, but in Tab Target, the attack hits without the debuff.
Is the 'Action Combat' potential of 'the Tank and Mage/Ranger interplay, worth the effort, in your mind? This is one of the primary things that 'Hybrid Combat' could lead to, even in the most basic forms. Would you say to not bother with this because the downsides would outweigh the benefits of this gameplay? Do you even consider this type of gameplay to be 'a benefit'?
Rather than specifically speak about the game, as they played for only an hour or so (which, similar to BDO and other games, just levels you rapidly), I will make a clarification of something I said earlier about the game which is likely to come up, moving forward. This is not a claim that this is how it works in Vindictus. Like I said, an hour or so.
Hitstop
The concept is simple. When your opponent lands hits, you get staggered out of your own attack, and have to wait. People don't like this. It isn't generally found in MMOs. It's common in fighting games, which is why many people are bad at them. The first thing you learn in most fighting games is simple.
"My opponent has hit me, I now need to regain my footing and defend and wait for them to push me out of their range with their attacks, or until the start-up of their next attack is slow enough for me to escape or use a quick attack of my own."
Most people don't learn this either. We want to react. We don't want hitstop. We want it such that when we press a button, the thing we want to do, happens. In fighting games, this means most people try to hit the button for their own attack. And it is slower than the opponent's attack. And they get hit again, and lose this way 'without getting to do anything'. Most MMOs are nicer, they let you keep attacking even if your opponent is pummeling you, so you focus on either doing more damage than them or dodging their actual abilities. This is why they turn into 'Spreadsheet contests' or mobility spam. It is why they have 'rotations' and why stuns and CC are so important, because normal hits have no hitstop, you can't stagger other people, you 'need' to use your CC as soon as the opponent is in position because it's almost always max DPS to do so. If you can prevent one of their abilities, all the better.
Without hitstop, zerging increases massively in effectiveness. A dragon whose claw swipe does X damage to one person is a sponge. A dragon whose claw swipe interrupts the attack of everyone in its cone, pushing them back slightly, which also does a downward wingflap or ability if too many players try to move out of the range of the claw, is a fight, but is it an annoying one? If you are 'animation locked' because you got hit and have to wait for your next attack to start after your hitstop, games change. Drastically.
I made the generalization that Vindictus appeared to be 'watered down Monster Hunter' for this reason. In the PvE videos I watched, enemies do damage, but have no hitstop on their attacks. Disregarding the question of if that game is actually like that or not, the thing that would have to be addressed is, 'how do you have meaningful action combat without hitstop, that doesn't turn into either a Spreadsheet Comparison, AimBot Paradise, or Mobility Spam?'
As usual, I will not offer any answer myself. This isn't to say that I don't have answers to questions, only that I don't want to influence the conversation more than necessary. I will give my design knowledge only if directly asked, and even then, as neutrally as possible, I hope.
No need for spreadsheets.
BDO becomes a fighting game precisely because those things are very effective substitutes for hitstop. Games with less of the options you mentioned have fights that last longer, but balance is normally terrible (because whoever managed to use all theirs first has the damage advantage while those things are on cooldown)
What I'm saying in response to Dygz is that if you have enough stun, snare, root and kite to say 'no need for spreadsheets', you now have hitstop. @Dygz, are you taking the position of 'I am okay with this, this is the skill part', and if you don't mind me asking, have you played BDO?
My position is that spreadsheets aren't ever necessary. Just some people love to use them.
In tabletop RPGs, we call this roll play v roleplay.
Gamers are especially prone to trying to max everything for the most uber, time-efficient combat - at the expense of everything else an RPG has to offer. So, yeah, lots of gamers love spreadsheets.
But, you don't really have to have them to devise successful strategies or tactics.
The focus of Ashes of Creation is on objective-based PvP combat rather than on 1v1 battles.
So, Ashes is not really trying to be a "fighting game".
I don't know what you mean by AimBot or Mobility Spam.
Those are not things I think about when playing an RPG.
If I am an Ice Wizard, I'm thinking about how I can use Ice to freeze/root or freeze/snare or icy/trip/prone my targets. As well as pummeling them with giant balls of Ice.
If I am a Feral Druid, I'm thinking about how I can bite, rip, pounce, tear and fear my opponents while contemplating whether I should augment my armor with Barkskin.
If my Ice Wizard is in group direct combat, I will be trying to pay attention to what my teammates are doing so we can synch our abilities. Can I stack my freeze/root with the Ranger's Root? Do I have an Ice/DoT that can stack with the Rogue's Bleed? Can I use Ice to make an opponent prone so that the Rogue can Backstab?
If it's a siege, I'm going to be ignoring people and trying to acquire or destroy objectives.
I definitely don't need spreadsheets for any of that.
Even in tabletop RPGs, I typically avoid combat as much as possible, so in MMORPGs, I usually focus on Stealth, roots, snares and kiting. I never think of RPGs as fighting games.
I also don't think about the "skill" part.
What I'm thinking about is how to best play the role of my character.
Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning, is about the best immersion I've felt - it takes me out of my typical playstyle and has me striving to use Sneak to trigger the throat-slicing animation - complete with blood spray. Whereas most games I am a carebear. I also enjoy using Sneak to Pick Pocket, though in other games, I never Pick Pocket.
Valheim has been the 2nd best for immersion...it's not even an RPG. But, I also like Sneak and backstab in that game. And I love bouncing opponents off my Shield(s) and eviscerating them while their trying to recover their balance.
In both cases, effective use of Sneak along with the visuals of the subsequent attacks have me actively seeking (PvE) combat.
There is some player skill to choosing where to place points in abilities. There is some player skill in effectively Sneaking.
I kind of prefer not to have rotations, but...where there are cooldowns, there are rotations.
Bad conversations:
Both people trying to talk at the same time, whoever talks louder wins.
Good conversations:
Parties prompt the other, listening and following up on each others thoughts, interject/interrupt, provoke/concede, pause/consider, explain/express - just a fuller acknowledgement of the other party and what they can do.
I think that most people want what you want or something close, but there are literally dozens of easy-to-miss pitfalls on the path to it, especially if many of the more vocal people are trying to get a specific thing out of 1v1 Action combat. I hope this discussion can continue to lead to what you've outlined.
I won't ask you to go try to play BDO, I think your wish is really clear. I ask that you trust me for a bit on 'how easy it is to mess up the enjoyability of what you wish'. However, do note that there is now a new class in BDO, the 'Hashashin', that might finally give you the appearance (and maybe even the gameplay type, based on what you said) that you'd like, if you happen to drift that way.
@maouw - I believe that, at the moment, most of us agree on this, just not how to get there, but I could be wrong, since, actually, I don't think I've seen many objections to the current Compilation, just people adding their philosophical thoughts just as you are.
Let me know if there's anything in the compilation that you disagree with. As of now, the last livestream told us that there will be 'split body' attacks coming soon (your character's legs can move in any direction while you swing your weapon). This is likely to lead things closer to what @Trax mentioned, but (entirely personally now) I'm concerned about this. I want to have faith, but that's literally the path with the maximum number of pitfalls...
I feel your concern. But I'm hopeful that their previous attempts at both with and without split-body animation means they have better insight into it this time around - I'm curious what prompted them to go back?
Also, I'm ready for your next "gushing of praise" post
I can't even.
Well, if you lose track of or allow the person you're fighting to break off into a crowd, that's on you. Now I'm not sure if this is a joke but saying all action combat MMO's fail is probably the most obvious sign that you're speaking from a place of bias. Ever heard of Black Desert Online? C'mon. And the problem with ESO is ESO, can't fault a combat system (that's actually tab-target lite.) because of the game it's used in is poorly balanced. I would like you to enlighten me as to what MMO supposedly doesn't have 'zerging' problems with large scale PVP, though.
I'm not saying that people don't enjoy BDO. Or its combat. Or even that they don't form guilds and play together. But to say that the game as a whole is immersive in any way, or healthy in terms of player interactions, is ... I'm just gonna say it's straight up wrong. The combat is not necessarily 'the reason' for this, but it definitely does not help the cause.
I can't say, I hope they didn't go back just because 'people don't like being stuck in place', because that won't actually solve the problem, in my experience, it will create a much larger, more annoying one, that will be harder to catch, raising the chances that it will be pushed too far and then it might be 'too late'. I really, really hope it isn't just that...
If there was hitstop in Ashes, combat would come down to whoever strikes first, wins. Given how much you can spam your weapon attacks, you could effectively stagger-lock your opponent from 100-0. That is neither fun nor engaging gameplay.
Hitstop "works" in fighting games because it's 1v1, and even if you don't get the first hit off there was ways to recover if you know what you're doing. That isn't the case for Ashes. Just look at what happened to Steven in the siege footage they showed off yesterday. With no diminishing returns on CC, he got stunlocked to death multiple times, even when he gave himself an absurd amount of health.
"How do you have meaningful action combat without hitstop?"
That's the golden question isn't it. I agree with @maouw that combat should feel like a good conversation, but how to achieve that? For me the key to good combat is in counter-play. For every mechanic there should be a counter. So for example, if you are facing crowd control there needs to be ways to break out of that crowd control. If your opponent has a way of quickly closing distance, you need a way to increase the distance, and vice versa.
There also shouldn't be any way for an opponent of equal gear and level to 100-0 you without an opportunity to fight back - That is bad game design.