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PvP aspect and the likely effect to casual players

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Comments

  • OkeydokeOkeydoke Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    The word woke wasn't an exact fit in the context of what was being talked about, but I understood what he meant by it.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Okeydoke wrote: »
    The word woke wasn't an exact fit in the context of what was being talked about, but I understood what he meant by it.

    Yeah, but you're Wokeydoke.
     
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  • NishUK wrote: »
    Most hardcore players that I've ever engaged with in my time on games like Lineage 2 and Archeage are PvX (or aiming to be richest/most geared), I really don't see enough evidence that there is in fact a sizeable amount of any playerbase that are only concerned with PvP.


    tbh PvP players have grown to accept having to do everything else in games so PvP players are generaly PvX players not to mention most people dont want to PvP 24/7 when there other thing they can do in the game however they also dont want to be able to get a quota one can say for pvp content this quota veries person by person some might want majority of there game play to be pvp related while other might only want 25% of therer game play pvp and what not. I for one would like pvp when its meaningful in some way for example there caravan system along with being able to kills players my guild might considered at war with and so on (This extends to node that are at war) aswell in AoC.
    Mindless killing i dont tend to do often unless its defending a spawn im farming to maximise farm and so on.

  • fabulafabula Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Mindless killing i dont tend to do often unless its defending a spawn im farming to maximise farm and so on.

    From conversations I've had with others and reading forum posts I get the feeling that quite a few people think that killing others over "their" spot is something they will be able to do. These people are up to date on what we know about the corruption system, flagging, GvG and yet they still come to this conclusion and I just don't see how.

    Unless someone is constantly flagging to fight you, killing others will make you gain corruption and others in the area will deal with you. You really can't fight over a spot, same goes for raid bosses and any other valuable resource in the game. People might create some sort arbitration system to decide the outcome involving PvP but these type of things are opt-in, the other party is not required to accept your proposal.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    fabula wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Mindless killing i dont tend to do often unless its defending a spawn im farming to maximise farm and so on.

    From conversations I've had with others and reading forum posts I get the feeling that quite a few people think that killing others over "their" spot is something they will be able to do. These people are up to date on what we know about the corruption system, flagging, GvG and yet they still come to this conclusion and I just don't see how.

    Unless someone is constantly flagging to fight you, killing others will make you gain corruption and others in the area will deal with you. You really can't fight over a spot, same goes for raid bosses and any other valuable resource in the game. People might create some sort arbitration system to decide the outcome involving PvP but these type of things are opt-in, the other party is not required to accept your proposal.

    For a farming spot, it depends on how remote the area is. You won't be able to fight for a spot right beside a major road, as an example. However, go in to the woods a little, and it becomes viable. Sure, you may gain corruption (the person you attack is best served by fighting back - where you would not gain corruption), but even if you do, the simple act of farming that spot will work that corruption off.

    I would assume that if you are in a good spot, you would probably work off one kill worth of corruption in 5 - 7 minutes - if you are already standing at a spot that is viable for working it off (aka, a farming spot).

    Someone heading back home after farming - where you are not right at a good farming spot - that is someone that you wouldn't want to gain corruption to kill. This is because you need to travel to that farming spot in order to even start working off that corruption, increasing the time you are in that corrupt state.

    As for raid bosses, since the idea of open world raids is to fight over them, expect them to have battlegrounds around them similar to a caravan. If this is the case, corruption is not applicable there at all. Since corruption has been removed from every content piece that Intrepid add to the game that is designed specifically to be fought over (caravans, wars, sieges), I fully expect open world raids that are also designed to be fought over to hold true to this.
  • fabula wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Mindless killing i dont tend to do often unless its defending a spawn im farming to maximise farm and so on.

    From conversations I've had with others and reading forum posts I get the feeling that quite a few people think that killing others over "their" spot is something they will be able to do. These people are up to date on what we know about the corruption system, flagging, GvG and yet they still come to this conclusion and I just don't see how.

    Unless someone is constantly flagging to fight you, killing others will make you gain corruption and others in the area will deal with you. You really can't fight over a spot, same goes for raid bosses and any other valuable resource in the game. People might create some sort arbitration system to decide the outcome involving PvP but these type of things are opt-in, the other party is not required to accept your proposal.

    Pretty sure steven said raid bosses will flag everyone as combatants around them so they can be fought over in one of his streams or what not. as for farming mobs in a spot ill just wear crappier gear and kill people and eat the corruption if i have to tbh if it something im grinding and they annoy me to much by taking mobs which make me wait on respawn and so on, cause i gotta do something while waiting on respawns and if there a player there farming them well there the new content since they took away mine :p
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I'm pretty sure raid bosses do not flag everyone as combatants.
    I'd like to see that quote.

    Most likely, getting rid of Corruption will take significantly more time than waiting on respawns.
  • superhero6785superhero6785 Member
    edited April 2022
    Silberwolf wrote: »
    The actual planned corruption system will neither prevent that griefer, ganker and/or corpse camper to continuously ruin the casual gamers gaming experience, nor would it the bounty hunter system.

    I think your whole concern is based on your assumption that the corruption system won't work. Without having tested the corruption system, bounty system, death penalties, etc., I'm not sure what makes you say so with such authority. It needs to be tested & penalties tweeked based on feedback. It's not going to be perfect on the first pass, but I have complete faith that they will get it to a good spot.
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  • Veeshan wrote: »
    fabula wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Mindless killing i dont tend to do often unless its defending a spawn im farming to maximise farm and so on.

    From conversations I've had with others and reading forum posts I get the feeling that quite a few people think that killing others over "their" spot is something they will be able to do. These people are up to date on what we know about the corruption system, flagging, GvG and yet they still come to this conclusion and I just don't see how.

    Unless someone is constantly flagging to fight you, killing others will make you gain corruption and others in the area will deal with you. You really can't fight over a spot, same goes for raid bosses and any other valuable resource in the game. People might create some sort arbitration system to decide the outcome involving PvP but these type of things are opt-in, the other party is not required to accept your proposal.

    Pretty sure steven said raid bosses will flag everyone as combatants around them so they can be fought over in one of his streams or what not. as for farming mobs in a spot ill just wear crappier gear and kill people and eat the corruption if i have to tbh if it something im grinding and they annoy me to much by taking mobs which make me wait on respawn and so on, cause i gotta do something while waiting on respawns and if there a player there farming them well there the new content since they took away mine :p

    That wouldn’t make sense, since he intends for PvE deaths to carry heavier weight than PvP deaths as Combatants. Why remove that mechanic?
  • @Silberwolf
    As steven has stated, Ashes will not be for everybody and that's ok!
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  • Just looking at the Guild I have been in for GW2, WOW, etc ...I can tell you this game will not appeal to all pve casuals...

    The pve casuals who tolerate pvp or at least que for battlegrounds in between questing (wow), will fair much better. As they do not fear pvp, even though they may not thrive on it constantly. These members will be the ones running dungeons, raids, crafting etc, and live with the reality that they are going to get killed in this pursuit within the open world.

    The ones who did not want to run on a (wow) pvp server, never que into battle grounds, and only did open world pvp quests because the Guild was ...will not last. Out of my wow Guild of 100 members only 20 have expressed true interest in AOC... others have said "they will go along if that is what everyone else does" <--- these members are going to bail within 6 months guaranteed, they just do not want to be alone in the games they play, but if they are being killed on the regular they will find any excuse to no longer log as they dread dying.

    I do not see the need for AOC to change their goals for the game. There are plenty of PVE games available for people to play, without changing this one. If they can not commit to the PVP grind but still like PVP to some extent, then they still have shooters and other game options with quick logs, 20-30 minute rounds and then log again.

    While I do like many of the members in my Guild, I realize we do not all like the same styles of games. I do not want to forgo styles of games that I enjoy, just because they do not. Not every game is going to bring in or even retain your player base... and that is OK. If only 20 of the 100 members join me for AOC and have a good time that is still a win in my book!
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I had PvE casuals who enjoyed the hell out of Darkfall, they accepted the fact that the systems they enjoyed were in a game specifically designed for hardcore PvP. They simply just enjoyed the games offering outside its initial focus.

    I think that applies to any game, a player will play Ashes despite there being it is they do not enjoy and if they cannot get passed this then they simply will not be playing.

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Silberwolf states that a PvE player who is ganked 5 times in quick succession will stop playing.
    They're correct.

    But, Corruption is designed to prevent that.
    If Corruption doesn't work as designed - there will be a bunch of PvE players who won't play. Myself included.
    But, we have no evidence that Corruption won't work as designed.
    Simply asserting that it won't work is meaningless.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Dygz wrote: »
    Silberwolf states that a PvE player who is ganked 5 times in quick succession will stop playing.
    They're correct.

    But, Corruption is designed to prevent that.
    If Corruption doesn't work as designed - there will be a bunch of PvE players who won't play. Myself included.
    But, we have no evidence that Corruption won't work as designed.
    Simply asserting that it won't work is meaningless.

    Case in point, this situation happened to me while playing in Alpha. I was ganked by a high level player multiple times within seconds of respawning because he was camping the respawn area. At the time there were no corruption mechanics in place, and while they had temporarily turned on PvP, they had asked players not to engage in it.

    I reported him, not sure if anything ever happened (you never get to know in those situations), but that was all I could do. I knew it was only Alpha and it didn't really matter, and that the game isn't going to be like that at release. But holy crap it sucked. I was trying to test crafting quests and this jerk was making it impossible. Hopefully his ass got banned.

    If that happened to me when playing, yeah this would not be a game I would play.
     
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  • People commonly use the threat of many people will leave the game because of a feature they personally don't like. Then they come up with a scenario where the corruption system fails some poor soul :'( and, slowly, they start to introduce this idea of servers with optional on/off world PvP.

    At the end you even try to wash your hands and say you do it for the "casual players", you wouldn't be trying to scare Intrepid in making their game if you liked it the way it is, at least say the truth. This game may not be for everyone, but a casual will be able to enjoy this game more than enough.

    And what if you die? these things will happen to everyone, the sense of danger is very addicting in games and if this one is good people will play it for years.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Sense of danger is addicting to some players.

    If Corruption does not work as well as Steven says it will - lots of people won't play. Myself included.
    Then we have to see if that leaves enough people for Steven to maintain the game for years.
    And, if it does, that's awesome. Regardless of whether I'm playing.

    But, we need to see how well this implementation of Corruption actually works.
    We won't know for sure until we test it.
  • @Dygz

    And by the way, it's not like the corruption punishment can't be tuned up or down super easy with testing since beta, so that would be the option not do separate servers where people have different experiences.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    Sense of danger is addicting to some players.

    Hook it into my veins!! 😳

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  • No, the game needs its casual playerbase @Silberwolf. All games that aim to be massive need a casual player base. IS absolutely needs to draw in a large casual player base for the game to be successful.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited April 2022
    Marcet wrote: »
    @Dygz
    And by the way, it's not like the corruption punishment can't be tuned up or down super easy with testing since beta, so that would be the option not do separate servers where people have different experiences.
    Yeah. Still need to get the balance right either way so that the PvP folk don't leave because Corruption will be too harsh.
    We just have to test it and see if we can get the balance right.
    Unlikely that separate servers will ever happen, but... it's premature to push for that at this point.
  • HumblePuffinHumblePuffin Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Gonna have to be a lot of feedback to get to a balance point where non combatants would rather just fight back instead of roll over and die, and combatants would rather not risk killing the person who refuses to fight back.

    I think the ideas around their current penalties are on the right track, just need a lot of fine tuning to find the sweet spot. Potential to drop gear when corrupted will definitely be quite a deterrent for me from getting the killing blow when weighed against the potential mats or thrill I would get from killing poor Timmy. Then working on tweaking that non combatant dropped mats number difference to a point where it’s more worth to just try and fight.

    It can’t just be about deterring Pkers. Definitely has to have a level of incentivizing people who refuse to owpvp to at least try. I know some people think if they get hit first it’s all over and why bother, but some of my most exciting moments in an mmo have come from winning that which seemed impossible at the start.
  • RevengeRomanRevengeRoman Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Honestly I don't see how it's productive to critique a system that hasn't been implemented yet.

    Let's wait until we see it and work with IS and provide feedback when we do see it.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited April 2022
    It can’t just be about deterring Pkers. Definitely has to have a level of incentivizing people who refuse to owpvp to at least try. I know some people think if they get hit first it’s all over and why bother, but some of my most exciting moments in an mmo have come from winning that which seemed impossible at the start.
    Exciting to PvPers, sure.
    You seem to think that PvE-centric people care about winning PvP battles. Whether it's possble to win or not is irrelevant.
    If dying is the quickest way to end the nwanted encounter, I will just let the attacker kill me and gain Corruption so I can get back to doing what I wanted to do.
  • HumblePuffinHumblePuffin Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I think PvE only players are opting into a game that has PvP and shouldn’t expect to entirely avoid a huge part of the game. Therefore yes there needs to be an incentive for non combatants to participate, even if it’s just to the point of “I would like to lose far less mats, I’ll throw out an auto attack”.

    I know this isn’t exactly a 1:1 comparison, but if you managed your resources poorly while fighting a mob, and you accidentally aggro a patrolling elite do you just say “welp guess I’ll just get this over with ” and take your hands off the keyboard? Or do you try to fight, and/or kite it?

    So yes if you think that players ganking should have to really make a decision on whether or not they should attack/kill this person then I think it is only fair in a PvX game that the other side has to make a meaningful decision on whether or not they fight back.

    It just feels like such a bad faith argument to say well this guy participating within the bounds of the game needs to drop full gear, and have their power diminished, and they better not go anywhere near a guard, and other players can see where they are and freely hunt them, while the other side wishes to have basically no consequences for poorly managing resources and CDs and not having any semblance of map awareness, or incentive to participate in what is supposed to be a dangerous open world full of beasts and baddies.
  • @Silberwolf
    As steven has stated, Ashes will not be for everybody and that's ok!

    That could also be applied to the more PvP oriented crowd. Someone coming expecting or wanting only to fight other players might have picked the wrong game.

    As for the specific subject of the thread... If I had to guess, I'd say the corruption system will be put to test a lot if there isn't enough goal oriented PvP activities. If there aren't enough caravans, castle sieges, node sieges, groups/guilds fighting over dungeons or zones and the like, some will want to stir the pot, form gank squads and go kill some random people in hope of starting bigger fights. Oh, these kind of "events" will happen even if there are plenty of "official" PvP events, but not enough to be problematic. If they were to become the norm, well, the game will bleed casual, especially if the corruption system isn't up to the task.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited April 2022
    I think PvE only players are opting into a game that has PvP and shouldn’t expect to entirely avoid a huge part of the game. Therefore yes there needs to be an incentive for non combatants to participate, even if it’s just to the point of “I would like to lose far less mats, I’ll throw out an auto attack”.
    You can think that if you wish. People for whom forced PvP is a deal-breaker won't play Ashes.
    There's still those of us who are only in the mood for PvP combat sometimes.
    And the balance for Corruption has to not step over the threshold that will be a deal-breaker for us, for us to be willing to play.
    I don't care about losing mats, I care about not being forced to PvP when I'm not in the mood for PvP.
    Ashes doesn't have auto-attack.


    I know this isn’t exactly a 1:1 comparison, but if you managed your resources poorly while fighting a mob, and you accidentally aggro a patrolling elite do you just say “welp guess I’ll just get this over with ” and take your hands off the keyboard? Or do you try to fight, and/or kite it?
    If I accidentally aggro a mob, I'm pretty confident I can outrun its tether. And, if it kills me anyway, I know it's not going to corpse camp me and I can go back to what I was doing before and be on alert for that mob to not aggro it again.
    Again, fairly confident that I can find a safe spot where I can avoid the parolling elites.
    The same is not true with regard to dealing with player character opponents.


    So yes if you think that players ganking should have to really make a decision on whether or not they should attack/kill this person then I think it is only fair in a PvX game that the other side has to make a meaningful decision on whether or not they fight back.
    I already know what the meaningful decision is.
    When I'm not in the mood to flag as combatant, I won't flag as combatant. I'll let the attacker take the Corruption hit so that it's too much of a risk to attack me again. It's unlikely I will care enough about resources to flag for PvP when I'm not in the mood for PvP.


    It just feels like such a bad faith argument to say well this guy participating within the bounds of the game needs to drop full gear, and have their power diminished, and they better not go anywhere near a guard, and other players can see where they are and freely hunt them, while the other side wishes to have basically no consequences for poorly managing resources and CDs and not having any semblance of map awareness, or incentive to participate in what is supposed to be a dangerous open world full of beasts and baddies.
    But... I don't care about "bad faith" when someone is trying to force me to participate in an activity I'm not in the mood for. The problem starts with their poor sportsmanship.
    But, if they want to kill me and gain Corruption, they can do so. That is operating within the bounds of the game.
    My preference would be to be on a PvE-Only server - but that's not within the bounds of the game, so...
  • The more skill and stat dampening applies (lower health and mana, lower gear proficiency), until the corrupt player ultimately becomes ineffective at combat.[14] This dampening only affects PvP combat.

    The higher chance of dropping of carried raw materials and gear (Weapons and Armor) when the corrupted player dies.

    The more corruption you gain, the less effective you become in PvP and there's going to be a certain period at which point you have gained enough corruption that you're going to be gearless and you're also going to have a massive reduction in your PvP efficacy.


    I don't like PvP, but those things could proberly do so it doesn't get out of hand
  • Honestly I don't see how it's productive to critique a system that hasn't been implemented yet.

    Let's wait until we see it and work with IS and provide feedback when we do see it.

    We need more people like you, here. Please stick around.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
  • HumblePuffinHumblePuffin Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited April 2022
    Just gonna number the 4 points you made for clarity instead of quoting everything, cause I’m lazy.

    1. That’s kind of my point. You want PvPers to need to weigh the cost benefit of multiple different things before killing you; I think that sounds fair if we will be coexisting in a game where risk vs reward is a major theme. As I sit here imagining the system, I see this as a legit choice I have to make, and honestly I’m probably not going to kill you if you don’t attack back, even if I am in the mood to PvP. Going by your own words the system they currently have provides you zero incentive to make those same risk vs reward calculations yourself. It’s just whatever you’re feeling at the moment.
    ( I know there’s no auto attack, it’s just the nomenclature I go to without thinking, same point tho throw out an ability or use your weapon)


    2. This point is that you do something. You don’t just say oh well, kill me, I dare you to the mob. All I propose is that they tweak the system to a point where there is enough of a benefit to you to want to flag vs not. Make it so the resource and experience debt as a combatant is so little the only reason you wouldn’t flag and try is if you really feel done dirty and feel inflicting corruption on the person is justified or didn’t have time to because you were that hurt and that person was actually unsportsmanlike. You don’t rez at your body so the only way to get camped is if you, a person who at this time does not want to PvP, makes the poor decision to go right back where you were to get stabbed again. Either way you’re getting yeeted back to a respawn point.
    .
    3. Once again you have one meaningful thing to consider, your mood, apparently even when it’s not in your best interest resource wise, I would have a multitude.

    4 I agree it’s pretty unsportsmanlike to pick on people way below your level or who you are fully aware that their name plate is super degraded and obviously have zero health. I also think it’s pretty unsportsmanlike to pick up the ball and go home because you’re “not in the mood” even though we both paid for the ball (this is quite possibly a poorly worded metaphor please don’t get hung up on the semantics of it).

    It’s just frustrating when players who enjoy owpvp are always asked to compromise, and then compromise some more to satisfy the primarily PvE crowd with no reciprocation. I personally think it’s totally fine that there is that option to opt out when you’re not in the mood at all, I just want it to matter that you made that decision instead of all of it resting on the shoulders of the other person.

    In my opinion how you do that’s is by making both the PKing, and the giving up side very punishing, with the middle ground very tempting to choose. I on one side want to stop attacking you because you haven’t attacked back and corruption sounds horrible, and you on the other side want to attack back because it’s far more beneficial to not take your hands off the keyboard and actually try.

    It’s a big, bad untamed world, I think you should have to be concerned about that random person you don’t know in the middle of the woods you’re walking in.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited April 2022
    1: No. I want to not be attacked by other players when I'm minding my own business. Just as I won't attack non-combatants.
    Corruption is designed such that players who wish to kill non-combatants have to weigh the risks.
    There's not much for me to weigh. What's most important to me is that I'm not attacked by players when I'm not in the mood for PvP combat. My own death penalties are irrelevant. Because the best way to minimize being PKed is to not fight back and penalize my killer with Corruption. It's also the quickest way for me to return to whatever my game session goals were before I was interrupted.

    2: With a mob, I will most likely choose to out run the tether and return to doing whatever I was doing before I was attacked. Unless I'm confident it's a fairly easy kill...assuming there's a reason for me to want to kill anything.
    There is no way to make the death penalty so minimal that it will entice me to flag as combatant when I'm not in the mood for PvP combat. Flagging as combatant will always be the absolute worst choice because even if I win the battle I still lose...because I remain flagged as a combatant for some period of time when I don't want to be a combatant. That just invites more people to attack me.
    And, no, I don't think I'll have to go return to the exact spot where I died in order to continue farming or doing whatever it was I was doing when I was ganked.

    3: That' correct. My best interest is whatever I'm interested in doing for the rest of my play session.
    And my best interest will always be to deter gankers from ganking me by penalizing them with Corruption.

    4: It's poor sportsmanship to kill non-combatants. Which is why we have Corruption as a penalty. Picking up the ball and going home might be an apt analogy if I were a combatant. As a non-combatant, I am refusing to pick up the ball.
    Ultimately, If I don't like the game, I'm not going to play it. Doesn't matter how much I paid for it.

    You keep saying something like I should try. Why should I "try" something I already know that I won't like?
    You seem to think that winning the encounter will make me feel better or will be some kind of consolation and I'm telling you I'm just going to be pissed off, regardless of who wins, because it's not an activity I want to participate in at that time - and I'm being forced to participate anyways.
    If I am full, it doesn't matter how good the food tastes, if you try to force me to eat food, I'm going to be pissed off. Doesn't matter whether you succeed at stuffing the food down my throat, I'm still going to be pissed off that you tried to force me to do something I'm not in the mood to do. And, given the opportunity, I will maximize any penalty that will deter you from trying to do so again.

    When I'm in the mood for PvP combat, I'll join a Caravan run or join a Siege.
    Others are free to do the same.
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