If you saw someone approaching you wearing full plate carrying a two handed sword both clearly recognizable what information would this give you in a game like Ashes where gear is agnostic. Anybody can use any gear makes the whole cosmetics argument moot as long as using the cosmic or transmog system means using plate cosmetics only on plate and cloth only on cloth.
What it would mean depends greatly on the games combat system.
If armor gave a flat damage reduction to physical damage, someone in plate armor would tell you that you shouldn't use smaller physical attacks - stick to bigger attacks, even if they are slower.
The two handed sword would tell me the attacks are slow, meaning I probably have time between swings to get my attacks in, if I manage to not get hit by his.
The thing with gear being agnostic though, is that each item type is still probably going to have inherent bonuses/effects to it. Daggers are likely going to have faster attacks, and two handed swords will likely be slower - I expect there to be an inherent effect on the weapons that translates this to abilities (it could be an outright boost/reduction to cast speed of abilities, or it could be that ability cast speed is a function of weapon speed - either way, I expect something along these lines).
There will almost definitely also be weapons that have inherent bonus effects to spells and to healing. Sure, you may be able to adjust stats, but inherent bonuses are, well, inherent.
The other thing that a person in plate armor with a two handed sword tells me is that they probably have average defense against magic - at best.
So, I would summarize that this two handed sword wielding, plate armor wearing person coming at me is either a melee character that is well defended against melee (probably someone that is planning on going after a rogue) but expects to deal out some damage (no shield), but is probably not a caster or healer. If they are a caster or healer, or if they are melee but expect to defend, I will then know that they are probably not going to do all that good of a job.
Or we could have it Ashes way, where that person is actually a bear on a unicycle, but just wearing a plate armor cosmetic.
Interesting your first thought is warrior with slow attacks and that it is not possible to be a cleric bard or summoner.
Could the battle mage make proper use of "inherent" gear abilities?
The whole point is trying to judge your opponent base strictly on the armor they are showing you
Lots of people transmog into starter gear while wearing top gear just to get an edge.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
While I would indeed love to be able to just look at a character and be able to tell what their gear is, I will be content if their current plan to have a icon next to their name indicating their gear level. I will say they will also need to clearly indicated their class build as well seeing as that is very important in pvp. But who knows, could be way more fun to have to risk jumping into a fight where the person is hiding their intentions regarding their playstyle, totally sounds like something I would do.
While I would indeed love to be able to just look at a character and be able to tell what their gear is, I will be content if their current plan to have a icon next to their name indicating their gear level. I will say they will also need to clearly indicated their class build as well seeing as that is very important in pvp.
According to the wiki the icons should tell gearscore and the class. Therefore, imo that might be enough even I have used to readable gear as well. That information tells the power level and what abilities can be expected.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The only reason I agree with the idea is because some of the cosmetics are horrid and I expect people to setup their cosmetics in ways I would find generally unappealing or annoying. Such as "funny" fluorescent armor to be as obnoxious as possible, etc. However, as people have paid for the right to look a certain way, as long as cosmetic customization/dyes aren't too bad, I'd let the inability to disable them slide.
I do hope that cosmetics will be turned off by default or at least the option will exist during strictly PvP events (castle sieges and node wars come to mind).
With that said, there's no chance they'll allow people to disable cosmetics/transmogs in the regular open world. And yes, having to "read" an icon/buff will hurt the PvP aspect of the game, even if just a bit. Trying to argument that it won't make the combat at least marginally worse is being naïve, in my opinion.
At the end of the day, I hope that Intrepid is able to find a solution to this concern and that it's good enough to become a non-issue, only a minimal inconvenience.
For people understand how this is important go to a New world GvG , against tanks and warriors with gandhalf skins, and mages , bows with heavy amor skins and you will see how that mess your focus, and in that case is only 50 vs 50....
People say the simbol near name tag is enough, never played an pvx mmorpg where in a gank or in zerg every sec count, so knowing your Enemy gear at the first glance makes all the difference
That option to hide skin in Albion was genius, like many other that aoc can take notes from that game
If you saw someone approaching you wearing full plate carrying a two handed sword both clearly recognizable what information would this give you in a game like Ashes where gear is agnostic. Anybody can use any gear makes the whole cosmetics argument moot as long as using the cosmic or transmog system means using plate cosmetics only on plate and cloth only on cloth.
What it would mean depends greatly on the games combat system.
If armor gave a flat damage reduction to physical damage, someone in plate armor would tell you that you shouldn't use smaller physical attacks - stick to bigger attacks, even if they are slower.
The two handed sword would tell me the attacks are slow, meaning I probably have time between swings to get my attacks in, if I manage to not get hit by his.
The thing with gear being agnostic though, is that each item type is still probably going to have inherent bonuses/effects to it. Daggers are likely going to have faster attacks, and two handed swords will likely be slower - I expect there to be an inherent effect on the weapons that translates this to abilities (it could be an outright boost/reduction to cast speed of abilities, or it could be that ability cast speed is a function of weapon speed - either way, I expect something along these lines).
There will almost definitely also be weapons that have inherent bonus effects to spells and to healing. Sure, you may be able to adjust stats, but inherent bonuses are, well, inherent.
The other thing that a person in plate armor with a two handed sword tells me is that they probably have average defense against magic - at best.
So, I would summarize that this two handed sword wielding, plate armor wearing person coming at me is either a melee character that is well defended against melee (probably someone that is planning on going after a rogue) but expects to deal out some damage (no shield), but is probably not a caster or healer. If they are a caster or healer, or if they are melee but expect to defend, I will then know that they are probably not going to do all that good of a job.
Or we could have it Ashes way, where that person is actually a bear on a unicycle, but just wearing a plate armor cosmetic.
Interesting your first thought is warrior with slow attacks and that it is not possible to be a cleric bard or summoner.
Could the battle mage make proper use of "inherent" gear abilities?
The whole point is trying to judge your opponent base strictly on the armor they are showing you
Lots of people transmog into starter gear while wearing top gear just to get an edge.
I did make the assumption based on combat system. If the combat system had bards gain a bonus from a two handed sword rather than other items, then that would factor in to the possibility. However, I would wager that they dont gain an inherent bonus from two handed sword at all. I made the assumption that it wasnt a summoner due to no mention of a summoned pet.
While this person could still potentially be a healer, bard or summoner in Ashes, if this is the case, the player is foregoing the inherent bonus that they could gain from a weapon better suited to their class. As such, the are probably going to be easier to kill than the average player of their class, you just need to factor I the minor alterations that their gear will cause (plate armor vs cloth and such).
I mean, if you are a healer and are using a two handed sword with bonuses to melee damage at the expense of a slower attack rate, rather than perhaps a mace or hammer that is aimed st being useful for healers, you are probably not going to be as hard to kill as someone that is geared up to be a healer.
For people understand how this is important go to a New world GvG , against tanks and warriors with gandhalf skins, and mages , bows with heavy amor skins and you will see how that mess your focus, and in that case is only 50 vs 50....
People say the simbol near name tag is enough, never played an pvx mmorpg where in a gank or in zerg every sec count, so knowing your Enemy gear at the first glance makes all the difference
That option to hide skin in Albion was genius, like many other that aoc can take notes from that game
Ashes plans to minimalize zergs and to greatly deter ganking.
We'll have to see whether the nametag symbol will provide us the info we need at a glance. That kind of is the purpose of symbols.
One great provision in NW is the compass, rather than a mini-map.
People like to influence the way THEY look in a game, if you can revert the appearance of their gear, even if it's only client side, your cucking them out of their customization. Not good.
Beyond that, when you are fighting someone you should be able to tell in the first 3-4 seconds who's gear is better, and it seems pretty anti fun for people to say "ah he has that sword" and run away before any battle has taken place. If you were some bad ass warrior-cleric IRL you wouldn't give a shit about what your opponent was wearing, you would go in and win or die by the sword.
Not an issue as long as the bar/icon is still planned for equivalent gear score. Just got to be visible enough to make a quick enough decision. In the real world you never know who's carrying.. could be worse when trying to be predatory. Then again i am not against not knowing but then also again it'd be kinda silly if bob came into the office wearing a costume over his suit, wouldn't it?
People like to influence the way THEY look in a game, if you can revert the appearance of their gear, even if it's only client side, your cucking them out of their customization. Not good.
Can't the same argument be made for players who care more about fluid PvP than transmogs? By Intrepid forcing cosmetics down everyone's throats, we're getting cucked out of reliable visuals during combat, and that is especially troublesome in a game where death entails item and exp loss. I think letting each individual player choose gameplay over the guy who wants everyone to see the clown suit they wore to battle is the obvious choice.
The only real counter-argument I can think of is there'll be less cosmetic sales because people can't forcibly show off their dress-up simulator to everyone (the vast majority of people don't care what your paid-for cosmetics look like, btw), yet I was under the impression that Intrepid was emphasizing gameplay in AoC.
People like to influence the way THEY look in a game, if you can revert the appearance of their gear, even if it's only client side, your cucking them out of their customization. Not good.
The only real counter-argument I can think of is there'll be less cosmetic sales because people can't forcibly show off their dress-up simulator to everyone (the vast majority of people don't care what your paid-for cosmetics look like, btw), yet I was under the impression that Intrepid was emphasizing gameplay in AoC.
And that's the thing. They've stated they need the cosmetics shop to fund future expansions. The subscription model is obviously the primary economic pillar in terms of dependable income, but, whether it's true or not, if they believe they NEED the cash shop as well, I doubt they'll let players turn off cosmetics except for what happens automatically in siege battles.
We have talked about that icon already and it might be enough. However, one thing still concerns me with that wiki text..
"Players will have a buff on their nameplate that indicates the gear set they are wearing. Other players will be able to see this buff by targeting that player at a distance."
In games which has owPvP it can be crucial that enemies gear is readable, not by clicking, but just by looking. There will be situations where players do not have time to target and inspect because several players involved in the action and/or things happening without notice.
Therefore, it would be great if that icon can be seen without clicking and it shares gearscore and class information. Otherwise cosmetics can be used to disguise what players wears and are cabable to do.
Transmogs are fine but should not affect to the gameplay.
In games which has owPvP it can be crucial that enemies gear is readable, not by clicking, but just by looking. There will be situations where players do not have time to target and inspect because several players involved in the action and/or things happening without notice.
I think the info given with the icons will be more than enough information about a player. Realistically I don't think you should be able to know everything about somebody based off just looking at someone's character. Sure, it may be convenient for you so you can be more risk averse when wanting to go in and fight people, but it can also ruin the spontaneity that makes PVP fun, as well as the risk you run when engaging in PVP.
One of the major appeals to MMO's is the ability to customize your character's look extensively and that's not just for yourself, but as your representation in the game to be seen by and shared with everyone else. Being able to toggle off people's cosmetics takes 50% of that appeal away, and that feature would only be popular with a specific type of player while being wildly unpopular with everybody else and devaluing cosmetics people unlock (whether they paid for them, or earned them in-game).
As for Albion, that's an extremely niche game made pretty much exclusively for one type of player, while the visual aspect is...Y'know, less than stellar and lacking in detail to begin with.
1. You should be able to not allow other players to inspect you so they can't see your build and try to make a counter to it.
2. Seeing the look of a character isn't going to influence if you attack them in pvp or not. What will influence it is the threat assessment you have to the player more in lines with the class and weapons of choice.
3. Says cosmetics effect pvp is a over exaggeration. Now a cosmetic that did effect PvP was in BDO that hid your name and made you hard to see.
4. Pretty sure if you have a metal cosmetic that goes on heavy armor, if you have cloth that goes on cloth, etc.
I feel like this is a more destructive post of someone that just hates cosmetics and is passively aggressively trying to start a post about it.
Cosmetics are in every mmo they aren't going away, can people just be happy its not going to be pay to win....That is literally the only thing i care about.
I do not personally see it as a hate against cosmetics or at least from my part that is not the case. Now if a game decides to use a lot of cosmetics and have owPvP with consequences, then it is only reasonable to think how these two aspects plays together. If devs want to keep cosmetics visible 100% of the time then they should handle the readability part as well. IF cosmetics affects to the gameplay those cannot be considered cosmetics anymore. Now if I understood right, sieges will disable cosmetics, and that is because readability. The same need is in owPvP as well. If people would not drop anything it would not matter but because there is consequences involved with the corruption system it creates the need for readability.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited June 2022
Disabling cosmetics during sieges is about rendering problems for masses of players in the same location.
That has nothing to do with threat assessment.
"A 'default player appearance' may be automatically applied during sieges or other large scale battles to improve client-side performance."
Only a coward needs to see their opponents gear, making sure they only attack weaker people.
Cosmetics and transmogs are vital to MMO longevity, just grow a spine when you pvp.
Some of these comments have me worried. People saying that we shouldn't be able to inspect players' gear before a fight have almost assuredly never played a hardcore PvP game where deaths are regressive. Combat shouldn't be blindly running into people. Knowing who you're up against is vital for gameplay that feels fair.
It'll be interesting to see their opinions change. The first time they die to a group of gankers in high catch high damage gear in full cosmetic overrides to obscure the fact that they' a ganking party will have people begging Intrepid for change. The anything goes in the wilderness RP isn't as fun as people have it made out in their heads.
Only a coward needs to see their opponents gear, making sure they only attack weaker people.
Cosmetics and transmogs are vital to MMO longevity, just grow a spine when you pvp.
As a Bard, this is not at all true. I need to know what buffs to put up when the fight starts, or even as someone is approaching before I'm attacked. This varies entirely based on the type of enemy stats and playstyle that I'm about to encounter. If I can be deceived about your playstyle based on cosmetics, I am at a meaningful disadvantage. I don't get an extra time-out to change my buffs once I've realized you're not what your costume implies. I have to commit to something up front, and there's a meaningful cost to being wrong.
Theyre going to add pve servers once hundreds of thousands of people leave in the first week of finding out there arent any, they would be fools not to have pve servers.
Theyre going to add pve servers once hundreds of thousands of people leave in the first week of finding out there arent any, they would be fools not to have pve servers.
Some of these comments have me worried. People saying that we shouldn't be able to inspect players' gear before a fight have almost assuredly never played a hardcore PvP game where deaths are regressive. Combat shouldn't be blindly running into people. Knowing who you're up against is vital for gameplay that feels fair.
It'll be interesting to see their opinions change. The first time they die to a group of gankers in high catch high damage gear in full cosmetic overrides to obscure the fact that they' a ganking party will have people begging Intrepid for change. The anything goes in the wilderness RP isn't as fun as people have it made out in their heads.
What are you on about, you don't even know how gear works in this game its not WoW. AOC will never be WoW it is designed as a completely different game. My opinion will never change on that, knowing what you are up against a head of time and trying to make a counter build to them before a fight is a casual mentality.
Seriously when did all these PvE players think they are pro PvPers now all the sudden.
Theyre going to add pve servers once hundreds of thousands of people leave in the first week of finding out there arent any, they would be fools not to have pve servers.
You mean like they leave in every new mmorpg that comes out and go back to WoW or final fantasy that are designed for pve.
What are you on about, you don't even know how gear works in this game its not WoW. AOC will never be WoW it is designed as a completely different game. My opinion will never change on that, knowing what you are up against a head of time and trying to make a counter build to them before a fight is a casual mentality.
Seriously when did all these PvE players think they are pro PvPers now all the sudden.
The only WoW I've played is ~20h of tbc classic, yet I'm here hating on transmogs and asking for a direct sight-reading of enemies power lvls (at least rough estimates). You know why? Because I've played L2 for 12 years and sight-read all my enemies and knew when to engage them or when to run, or when to prepare for a specific kind of fight.
If you consider L2's owpvp casual, I dunno what to tell you.
Comments
Interesting your first thought is warrior with slow attacks and that it is not possible to be a cleric bard or summoner.
Could the battle mage make proper use of "inherent" gear abilities?
The whole point is trying to judge your opponent base strictly on the armor they are showing you
Lots of people transmog into starter gear while wearing top gear just to get an edge.
According to the wiki the icons should tell gearscore and the class. Therefore, imo that might be enough even I have used to readable gear as well. That information tells the power level and what abilities can be expected.
Especially that giant ass BiS sandal...
Good thing the show cosmetics option can be toggleable. You get to see transmogs, those of us who differ can look at real gear. Win win.
With that said, there's no chance they'll allow people to disable cosmetics/transmogs in the regular open world. And yes, having to "read" an icon/buff will hurt the PvP aspect of the game, even if just a bit. Trying to argument that it won't make the combat at least marginally worse is being naïve, in my opinion.
At the end of the day, I hope that Intrepid is able to find a solution to this concern and that it's good enough to become a non-issue, only a minimal inconvenience.
People say the simbol near name tag is enough, never played an pvx mmorpg where in a gank or in zerg every sec count, so knowing your Enemy gear at the first glance makes all the difference
That option to hide skin in Albion was genius, like many other that aoc can take notes from that game
I did make the assumption based on combat system. If the combat system had bards gain a bonus from a two handed sword rather than other items, then that would factor in to the possibility. However, I would wager that they dont gain an inherent bonus from two handed sword at all. I made the assumption that it wasnt a summoner due to no mention of a summoned pet.
While this person could still potentially be a healer, bard or summoner in Ashes, if this is the case, the player is foregoing the inherent bonus that they could gain from a weapon better suited to their class. As such, the are probably going to be easier to kill than the average player of their class, you just need to factor I the minor alterations that their gear will cause (plate armor vs cloth and such).
I mean, if you are a healer and are using a two handed sword with bonuses to melee damage at the expense of a slower attack rate, rather than perhaps a mace or hammer that is aimed st being useful for healers, you are probably not going to be as hard to kill as someone that is geared up to be a healer.
We'll have to see whether the nametag symbol will provide us the info we need at a glance. That kind of is the purpose of symbols.
One great provision in NW is the compass, rather than a mini-map.
Beyond that, when you are fighting someone you should be able to tell in the first 3-4 seconds who's gear is better, and it seems pretty anti fun for people to say "ah he has that sword" and run away before any battle has taken place. If you were some bad ass warrior-cleric IRL you wouldn't give a shit about what your opponent was wearing, you would go in and win or die by the sword.
Can't the same argument be made for players who care more about fluid PvP than transmogs? By Intrepid forcing cosmetics down everyone's throats, we're getting cucked out of reliable visuals during combat, and that is especially troublesome in a game where death entails item and exp loss. I think letting each individual player choose gameplay over the guy who wants everyone to see the clown suit they wore to battle is the obvious choice.
The only real counter-argument I can think of is there'll be less cosmetic sales because people can't forcibly show off their dress-up simulator to everyone (the vast majority of people don't care what your paid-for cosmetics look like, btw), yet I was under the impression that Intrepid was emphasizing gameplay in AoC.
And that's the thing. They've stated they need the cosmetics shop to fund future expansions. The subscription model is obviously the primary economic pillar in terms of dependable income, but, whether it's true or not, if they believe they NEED the cash shop as well, I doubt they'll let players turn off cosmetics except for what happens automatically in siege battles.
"Players will have a buff on their nameplate that indicates the gear set they are wearing. Other players will be able to see this buff by targeting that player at a distance."
In games which has owPvP it can be crucial that enemies gear is readable, not by clicking, but just by looking. There will be situations where players do not have time to target and inspect because several players involved in the action and/or things happening without notice.
Therefore, it would be great if that icon can be seen without clicking and it shares gearscore and class information. Otherwise cosmetics can be used to disguise what players wears and are cabable to do.
Transmogs are fine but should not affect to the gameplay.
One of the major appeals to MMO's is the ability to customize your character's look extensively and that's not just for yourself, but as your representation in the game to be seen by and shared with everyone else. Being able to toggle off people's cosmetics takes 50% of that appeal away, and that feature would only be popular with a specific type of player while being wildly unpopular with everybody else and devaluing cosmetics people unlock (whether they paid for them, or earned them in-game).
As for Albion, that's an extremely niche game made pretty much exclusively for one type of player, while the visual aspect is...Y'know, less than stellar and lacking in detail to begin with.
2. Seeing the look of a character isn't going to influence if you attack them in pvp or not. What will influence it is the threat assessment you have to the player more in lines with the class and weapons of choice.
3. Says cosmetics effect pvp is a over exaggeration. Now a cosmetic that did effect PvP was in BDO that hid your name and made you hard to see.
4. Pretty sure if you have a metal cosmetic that goes on heavy armor, if you have cloth that goes on cloth, etc.
I feel like this is a more destructive post of someone that just hates cosmetics and is passively aggressively trying to start a post about it.
Cosmetics are in every mmo they aren't going away, can people just be happy its not going to be pay to win....That is literally the only thing i care about.
That has nothing to do with threat assessment.
"A 'default player appearance' may be automatically applied during sieges or other large scale battles to improve client-side performance."
Cosmetics and transmogs are vital to MMO longevity, just grow a spine when you pvp.
It'll be interesting to see their opinions change. The first time they die to a group of gankers in high catch high damage gear in full cosmetic overrides to obscure the fact that they' a ganking party will have people begging Intrepid for change. The anything goes in the wilderness RP isn't as fun as people have it made out in their heads.
As a Bard, this is not at all true. I need to know what buffs to put up when the fight starts, or even as someone is approaching before I'm attacked. This varies entirely based on the type of enemy stats and playstyle that I'm about to encounter. If I can be deceived about your playstyle based on cosmetics, I am at a meaningful disadvantage. I don't get an extra time-out to change my buffs once I've realized you're not what your costume implies. I have to commit to something up front, and there's a meaningful cost to being wrong.
how about you just go find a PvE game....?
What are you on about, you don't even know how gear works in this game its not WoW. AOC will never be WoW it is designed as a completely different game. My opinion will never change on that, knowing what you are up against a head of time and trying to make a counter build to them before a fight is a casual mentality.
Seriously when did all these PvE players think they are pro PvPers now all the sudden.
You mean like they leave in every new mmorpg that comes out and go back to WoW or final fantasy that are designed for pve.
If you consider L2's owpvp casual, I dunno what to tell you.