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Killing your friend to lower their corruption

George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
edited July 2022 in General Discussion
There you have it once more. It will be risky. Imagine you being red and taking off all your gear, handing to a friend, who will then proceed to kill.
At that moment you are basically a naked red player with an inventory full of gear, ready to be one-shot.
Until that trade is completed you can burst like a pinata to bring joy to all the nearby people.
Yes there is anxiety as Steven said, for those that dare to go red. While I was trading my brother, 15 or so years ago, I got killed by the swarming non-combatants and I lost my best arnor. That's what happens when you go red.

Another simple fix without altering the PK system is for a trade to take 3s after both players have hit the Cofnirm button on the trade tab.

I wish people will stop freaking out about open world PvP/PK. It's one thing to try to cover all loopholes and it's another thing to want to prevent free interaction by making content:
optional
instanced
restricted
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Comments

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    There you have it once more. It will be risky. Imagine you being red and taking off all your gear, handing to a friend, who will then proceed to kill.
    At that moment you are basically a naked red player with an inventory full of gear, ready to be one-shot.
    Until that trade is completed you can burst like a pinata to bring joy to all the nearby people.
    Yes there is anxiety as Steven said, for those that dare to go red. While I was trading my brother, 15 or so years ago, I got killed by the swarming non-combatants and I lost my best arnor. That's what happens when you go red.

    Another simple fix without altering the PK system is for a trade to take 3s after both players have hit the Cofnirm button on the trade tab.

    I wish people will stop freaking out about open world PvP/PK. It's one thing to try to cover all loopholes and it's another thing to want to prevent free interaction by making content:
    optional
    instanced
    restricted

    Haven't had a chance to watch it yet, but I am glad Steven weighted in on this.

    It's one of the few things you and I have been on the same page about.
  • ElderElder Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2022
    I'm so confused. Did I miss something in this months QA?

    Is it not still true that player to player trading is disabled for corrupt players?
    Which is the greater folly, summoning the demon or expecting gratitude from it?
    gif.gif
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    That was my question B)

    And I definitely want them to just include PKers into the flagging rules (as they kinda already are). Make it hard for party/guild groups to protect their PKer. Yes, you can't trade as a Red, but you can still do a controlled kill, so any dropped gear won't be lost.

    I think Steven was thinking more about "I'm alone and a PKer and my guildmates are somewhere far away and BHs might get me before my mates can", while my question was about "I'm in a group rn and I PKed someone. Now my mates can immediately remove my corruption (depending on the quantity) and loot anything I drop, so I'm totally safe".

    I personally want to avoid that kind of interaction, specially considering that you can't flag against your mates in the current system. I understand that Reds are supposed to be a separate entity within the lore of the game, but I think this is a question of what's better for the gameplay rather than just the story/lore.
  • ElderElder Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    NiKr wrote: »
    Now my mates can immediately remove my corruption (depending on the quantity) and loot anything I drop, so I'm totally safe".

    You're never safe when dying. No matter what you're flagged as, there are penalties for deaths.

    Experience debt.
    Skill and stat dampening.
    Lower health and mana.
    Lower gear proficiency.
    Reduction in drop rates from monsters.
    Durability loss.

    A corrupt player suffers these penalties at four times the rate of a non-combatant, and will most likely require multiple deaths to remove their corruption entirely.

    Sure, you could mitigate the chance of losing equipment, materials and certificates by having a friend kill you repeatedly. You would also be guaranteeing these other harsh penalties are applied to you.
    Which is the greater folly, summoning the demon or expecting gratitude from it?
    gif.gif
  • AsgerrAsgerr Member
    Well you don't need to trade anything as a corrupted player if your buddy is there to pick up the stuff you drop for you.

    Sure you'll lose some materials, but the big loss would be some of your gear and weapons. If you managed to sneak out to some secluded area and your friend kills you, lowering your corruption, he then loots your body and simply trades it back to you once you're not corrupted anymore.

    It's still a workaround, but you can come across betrayals and such, which just make it more fun IMO
    Sig-ult-2.png
  • Lineage 2 clan halls with scroll vendor and portal npc.
    Send a scout, find victim groups, portal, gank and grind red off until players come to kill you. BSOE which is an instant portal back to clan hall. Only guild can enter there. Beat down the red pinatas and hand them back their gear.
  • ElderElder Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Otr wrote: »
    @tonewolf There will be no way to teleport in this game.

    Untrue.

    Scientific nodes that have reached the metropolis stage unlock the Teleportation superpower. There is also a family summon.
    Which is the greater folly, summoning the demon or expecting gratitude from it?
    gif.gif
  • ElderElder Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Otr wrote: »
    Elder wrote: »
    Otr wrote: »
    @tonewolf There will be no way to teleport in this game.

    Untrue.

    Scientific nodes that have reached the metropolis stage unlock the Teleportation superpower. There is also a family summon.

    I think the metropolis will help teleporting between vassal node and the metropolis. Will not help here much.
    The family summon is uncertain.
    Steven said he doesn't like that players are too teleporty and that feature is still being considered.
    Do you think they should add it?
    In any case, it can easily be disabled when the member is corrupt. But I think Steven wants to disable it for other reasons.

    Yes, everything is subject to testing. As far as I know, the family summon is intended to be present during A2.
    Which is the greater folly, summoning the demon or expecting gratitude from it?
    gif.gif
  • NiKr wrote: »
    That was my question B)

    And I definitely want them to just include PKers into the flagging rules (as they kinda already are). Make it hard for party/guild groups to protect their PKer. Yes, you can't trade as a Red, but you can still do a controlled kill, so any dropped gear won't be lost.

    I think Steven was thinking more about "I'm alone and a PKer and my guildmates are somewhere far away and BHs might get me before my mates can", while my question was about "I'm in a group rn and I PKed someone. Now my mates can immediately remove my corruption (depending on the quantity) and loot anything I drop, so I'm totally safe".

    I personally want to avoid that kind of interaction, specially considering that you can't flag against your mates in the current system. I understand that Reds are supposed to be a separate entity within the lore of the game, but I think this is a question of what's better for the gameplay rather than just the story/lore.

    If you drop corrupted gear you can no longer equip it on your account as its corrupted to your soul.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Elder wrote: »
    You're never safe when dying. No matter what you're flagged as, there are penalties for deaths.
    Experience debt.
    Skill and stat dampening.
    Lower health and mana.
    Lower gear proficiency.
    Reduction in drop rates from monsters.
    Durability loss.

    A corrupt player suffers these penalties at four times the rate of a non-combatant, and will most likely require multiple deaths to remove their corruption entirely.

    Sure, you could mitigate the chance of losing equipment, materials and certificates by having a friend kill you repeatedly. You would also be guaranteeing these other harsh penalties are applied to you.
    Yes, I'm fully aware of how the system works. I'm considering those penalties as the default base penalty. I'd assume that in most cases, if you have friends with you - you gonna try grinding off your corruption and not die. But if you see that a group of people is coming towards you - the safest way to limit the loss of your resources/gear is for your mate to kill you. And I personally don't want that to be the case.
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    If you drop corrupted gear you can no longer equip it on your account as its corrupted to your soul.
    If they even come close to this kind of design, I dunno how people will react :D
  • NiKr wrote: »
    Elder wrote: »
    You're never safe when dying. No matter what you're flagged as, there are penalties for deaths.
    Experience debt.
    Skill and stat dampening.
    Lower health and mana.
    Lower gear proficiency.
    Reduction in drop rates from monsters.
    Durability loss.

    A corrupt player suffers these penalties at four times the rate of a non-combatant, and will most likely require multiple deaths to remove their corruption entirely.

    Sure, you could mitigate the chance of losing equipment, materials and certificates by having a friend kill you repeatedly. You would also be guaranteeing these other harsh penalties are applied to you.
    Yes, I'm fully aware of how the system works. I'm considering those penalties as the default base penalty. I'd assume that in most cases, if you have friends with you - you gonna try grinding off your corruption and not die. But if you see that a group of people is coming towards you - the safest way to limit the loss of your resources/gear is for your mate to kill you. And I personally don't want that to be the case.
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    If you drop corrupted gear you can no longer equip it on your account as its corrupted to your soul.
    If they even come close to this kind of design, I dunno how people will react :D

    Only people that would be mad are people that would try to exploit lol. If some BH or green kills you, they aren't giving your gear back lol.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Only people that would be mad are people that would try to exploit lol. If some BH or green kills you, they aren't giving your gear back lol.
    I'm not quite sure what exploit you're talking about :/ Or maybe I misunderstood what you meant by "If you drop corrupted gear you can no longer equip it on your account as its corrupted to your soul."
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 2022
    Otr wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Elder wrote: »
    You're never safe when dying. No matter what you're flagged as, there are penalties for deaths.
    Experience debt.
    Skill and stat dampening.
    Lower health and mana.
    Lower gear proficiency.
    Reduction in drop rates from monsters.
    Durability loss.

    A corrupt player suffers these penalties at four times the rate of a non-combatant, and will most likely require multiple deaths to remove their corruption entirely.

    Sure, you could mitigate the chance of losing equipment, materials and certificates by having a friend kill you repeatedly. You would also be guaranteeing these other harsh penalties are applied to you.
    Yes, I'm fully aware of how the system works. I'm considering those penalties as the default base penalty. I'd assume that in most cases, if you have friends with you - you gonna try grinding off your corruption and not die. But if you see that a group of people is coming towards you - the safest way to limit the loss of your resources/gear is for your mate to kill you. And I personally don't want that to be the case.
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    If you drop corrupted gear you can no longer equip it on your account as its corrupted to your soul.
    If they even come close to this kind of design, I dunno how people will react :D

    Only people that would be mad are people that would try to exploit lol. If some BH or green kills you, they aren't giving your gear back lol.

    To exploit what? PK-er must be rewarded for their participation in offering the risk in the game and the feelings associated with it. :smile:

    This, mostly.

    No matter how many times I review Ashes' design goals in corruption, the only thing I ever find strange about the implementation is the 'only last hit actually gets corrupted' current decision.

    But that one actually makes me think sometimes... if the corruption system is moreso meant to deter solo 'griefy' gankers than an organized group of them.

    Maybe you're SUPPOSED to be able to just kill your mate to wipe some of their corruption and they just take all the other penalties.

    Also am I confused about something? Don't you only start dropping gear after a certain corruption level? I actually don't usually see how these situations even come up. If you were red enough to drop gear, your friends killing you repeatedly is fine, to me?

    You take a massive exp hit, but you are coordinated enough to not lose gear too.

    If you take that exp hit to 'get rid of your low corruption so you don't have to worry about greens attacking you and making it worse', from your friends instead, isn't that just coordination?

    EDIT: Double and triplechecked, seems like 'whether you drop gear when red is RNG' and we have no idea.

    Ah yes, RNG, the Classic Curse of The Ancient Others.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Azherae wrote: »
    If you take that exp hit to 'get rid of your low corruption so you don't have to worry about greens attacking you and making it worse', from your friends instead, isn't that just coordination?
    There's no coordination though. Your mate (with whom you already were most likely) is just the one to kill you, instead of a BH or a green. BHs lose pretty much any and all of their usefulness, while greens never get any potential Red drops.

    And yes, from how Steven answered my question, it definitely feels like he mainly had the "counter solo PKers" thought in mind when he was making changes to the L2's system.

    And I personally want this part of the system to be a bit harsher. This would mainly just promote corruption grindoff in guilds and would support BHs soooo much more than the current system. And imo this would be a much more fun "living on the edge" kind of deal, because in L2 clearing some karma when you were in a group was super easy. But it also didn't have BHs and resource drop on death, so this wasn't that big of an issue.

    As for gear drop, iirc the higher the amount the higher the chance, but yes, it's ultimately rng.
  • AsgerrAsgerr Member
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    If you drop corrupted gear you can no longer equip it on your account as its corrupted to your soul.

    Citation needed
    Sig-ult-2.png
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    If you take that exp hit to 'get rid of your low corruption so you don't have to worry about greens attacking you and making it worse', from your friends instead, isn't that just coordination?
    There's no coordination though. Your mate (with whom you already were most likely) is just the one to kill you, instead of a BH or a green. BHs lose pretty much any and all of their usefulness, while greens never get any potential Red drops.

    And yes, from how Steven answered my question, it definitely feels like he mainly had the "counter solo PKers" thought in mind when he was making changes to the L2's system.

    And I personally want this part of the system to be a bit harsher. This would mainly just promote corruption grindoff in guilds and would support BHs soooo much more than the current system. And imo this would be a much more fun "living on the edge" kind of deal, because in L2 clearing some karma when you were in a group was super easy. But it also didn't have BHs and resource drop on death, so this wasn't that big of an issue.

    As for gear drop, iirc the higher the amount the higher the chance, but yes, it's ultimately rng.

    Right but Ashes is a game where 'just having your friends with you to begin with' might be considered 'coordination'.

    The entire idea is that you don't travel alone, and you preferably travel with a full party of each Archetype for maximum effectiveness.

    People losing their gear from going Red temporarily might just be rare. Obviously as the 'one going to be doing all this stuff' it favors me. I just expected (wanted?) it to be different so that players who don't like being smacked around for being in my way without their friends would be more likely to feel like I was 'getting what I deserved', but that doesn't really mean that the gameplay would be better.

    Might just be that I'm not supposed to be terribly deterred once I stop caring about exp.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Otr wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    You take a massive exp hit, but you are coordinated enough to not lose gear too.
    If you can recover the lost experience faster than getting the same quantity of resources you loot, it is worth being done. If the game is well balanced, choosing to kill and loot should bring risks too upon the PKer. That's the intention for small isolated cases.

    Killing and looting might work when a team is around to help with the corruption but then more people are blocked doing this activity for less loot. Probably they will move to target caravans if they really want to be efficient. If they don't do that, then their plan is to scare the gatherers and divert defenders away from caravans?
    Can also be that they enjoy killing helpless innocent gatherers, but if they can do that, then the server is really in chaos and no structured alliances are present anymore. In that case, something bad happened with the game imo.

    There are no helpless innocent gatherers. If they are gathering, they're not helpless.

    If they're helpless, then why are they gathering, other than to basically be killed by people who take some stuff?

    Maybe the materials they drop are just the price of the bloodport home?
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Azherae wrote: »
    Right but Ashes is a game where 'just having your friends with you to begin with' might be considered 'coordination'.
    This is where my L2 bias shows too. To me, running in a party is literally the most basic thing you do in an mmo :D The only times I was farming alone in L2 was on high rate servers with automatic buffers and mana pots.
    Azherae wrote: »
    People losing their gear from going Red temporarily might just be rare. Obviously as the 'one going to be doing all this stuff' it favors me. I just expected (wanted?) it to be different so that players who don't like being smacked around for being in my way without their friends would be more likely to feel like I was 'getting what I deserved', but that doesn't really mean that the gameplay would be better.

    Might just be that I'm not supposed to be terribly deterred once I stop caring about exp.
    Yeah, and that's why I think that making the potential punishment that much harder would be fairly beneficial to the system.

    As I see it, constant groups would most likely have a designated "vacuum" member who'll never PK, so resource drops will not be an issue for Reds that are in a party. And if said party has a designated Red, their PK count will be quite high quite often, so gear loss would be quite probable. But due to the current setup, that probability is non-existent, because the party will just clear the Red's corruption as soon as he gets it. Especially if Intrepid allow us to rez the Reds (I'm on the fence about whether I'd like this or not)

    But even if we can't rez them, all you gotta do is wait a bit for BHs to run towards you; kill the PKer; loot whatever he drops; he respawns in a random location with a much lower amount of corruption (especially if, while you were waiting for BHs to approach you, you were farming mobs/XP) and cooperate in voice the quickest way to gather up again to clear the rest of the corruption.

    But if you couldn't attack your Red mate, now it's a real cat&mouse game of grinding off the corruption, while fighting off BHs in a very coordinated way (if you're trying to minimize your party's corruption) and potentially having other green parties coming to try and get your Red. To me that sounds like a much more fun system.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Right but Ashes is a game where 'just having your friends with you to begin with' might be considered 'coordination'.
    This is where my L2 bias shows too. To me, running in a party is literally the most basic thing you do in an mmo :D The only times I was farming alone in L2 was on high rate servers with automatic buffers and mana pots.
    Azherae wrote: »
    People losing their gear from going Red temporarily might just be rare. Obviously as the 'one going to be doing all this stuff' it favors me. I just expected (wanted?) it to be different so that players who don't like being smacked around for being in my way without their friends would be more likely to feel like I was 'getting what I deserved', but that doesn't really mean that the gameplay would be better.

    Might just be that I'm not supposed to be terribly deterred once I stop caring about exp.
    Yeah, and that's why I think that making the potential punishment that much harder would be fairly beneficial to the system.

    As I see it, constant groups would most likely have a designated "vacuum" member who'll never PK, so resource drops will not be an issue for Reds that are in a party. And if said party has a designated Red, their PK count will be quite high quite often, so gear loss would be quite probable. But due to the current setup, that probability is non-existent, because the party will just clear the Red's corruption as soon as he gets it. Especially if Intrepid allow us to rez the Reds (I'm on the fence about whether I'd like this or not)

    But even if we can't rez them, all you gotta do is wait a bit for BHs to run towards you; kill the PKer; loot whatever he drops; he respawns in a random location with a much lower amount of corruption (especially if, while you were waiting for BHs to approach you, you were farming mobs/XP) and cooperate in voice the quickest way to gather up again to clear the rest of the corruption.

    But if you couldn't attack your Red mate, now it's a real cat&mouse game of grinding off the corruption, while fighting off BHs in a very coordinated way (if you're trying to minimize your party's corruption) and potentially having other green parties coming to try and get your Red. To me that sounds like a much more fun system.

    To each their own, either way is challengers.

    The Wonder Has Called Forth New Seeds.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2022
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    If you drop corrupted gear you can no longer equip it on your account as its corrupted to your soul.
    ^^^
    LMAO
    That's 100% misleading.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Otr wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Otr wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    You take a massive exp hit, but you are coordinated enough to not lose gear too.
    If you can recover the lost experience faster than getting the same quantity of resources you loot, it is worth being done. If the game is well balanced, choosing to kill and loot should bring risks too upon the PKer. That's the intention for small isolated cases.

    Killing and looting might work when a team is around to help with the corruption but then more people are blocked doing this activity for less loot. Probably they will move to target caravans if they really want to be efficient. If they don't do that, then their plan is to scare the gatherers and divert defenders away from caravans?
    Can also be that they enjoy killing helpless innocent gatherers, but if they can do that, then the server is really in chaos and no structured alliances are present anymore. In that case, something bad happened with the game imo.

    There are no helpless innocent gatherers. If they are gathering, they're not helpless.

    If they're helpless, then why are they gathering, other than to basically be killed by people who take some stuff?

    Maybe the materials they drop are just the price of the bloodport home?

    True, if they can kill mobs guarding rare resources, they have good weapons and gear.
    Weapons which make the same damage in both PvP and PvE.
    It makes no sense to not fight and defend when a player attacks.
    I have no idea why there is this overreaction to PK-ers here on this forum.
    Sometime the argument is that PKers kill low level players. I think this will be not possible and/or efficient in AoC.

    Maybe some players are used to easy predictable NPCs and they feel they can always defeat NPCs but players are always better and will win. So they call themselves peaceful players.
    Maybe NPCs in AoC should be as skilled as a player.

    We can always hope. It'd be a shame to have a game like this and then the regular enemies be pushovers.

    They were at least 'okay' in Alpha-1 though.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Otr wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    ^^^
    LMAO
    That's 100% misleading.

    What is misleading? :innocent:

    Dont.. ignore it..
  • Asgerr wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    If you drop corrupted gear you can no longer equip it on your account as its corrupted to your soul.

    Citation needed

    This is simply an idea that would help to counter people trying to avoid dealing with corruption consequences.
  • Also when you hit max level if you don't delevel than xp lost might not matter to people potentially.
  • Otr wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    ^^^
    LMAO
    That's 100% misleading.

    What is misleading? :innocent:

    Dont.. ignore it..
    Otr wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    ^^^
    LMAO
    That's 100% misleading.

    What is misleading? :innocent:

    Dont.. ignore it..

    2mq7xl1a76im.png
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Also when you hit max level if you don't delevel than xp lost might not matter to people potentially.
    You do "delvel" though. Your stats go down because your XP debt gets you below your Level value. But, unless the levels matter too much for the character power, I doubt most people will care about 1-2 levels "lost".
  • NiKr wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Also when you hit max level if you don't delevel than xp lost might not matter to people potentially.
    You do "delvel" though. Your stats go down because your XP debt gets you below your Level value. But, unless the levels matter too much for the character power, I doubt most people will care about 1-2 levels "lost".

    Did not know that so ya it will still matter which is good then.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    What is misleading? :innocent:
    Hunh. When I wrote that comment it was directly under Mag7spy's post, but...
    I might have gotten interrupted for a while at work before I hit the post button.
    Fixed now.

  • When people try to argue on forums without context and just waste reading time ^
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Glad you are finally self-reflective.
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