NiKr wrote: » Strevi wrote: » So you are the exception to the two rules you mentioned? I'm already mega invested and gonna be a time-hardcore player that's gonna go for gameplay-hardcore stuff soon enough, but I'm against trackers because I think they speed up content consumption while also making said content so difficult that any non-tracker player would then have to use it to know how to beat it. Or at least that's how it seems to me after discussing this topic in this thread. So considering that, I think I'm an exception to some part of the things I said, but that's just cause "I'm not like other girls "
Strevi wrote: » So you are the exception to the two rules you mentioned?
Strevi wrote: » Why "any non-tracker player would then have to use it to know how to beat it"? If those who beat it first share the information, would that not be enough to help the others too?
NiKr wrote: » Strevi wrote: » Why "any non-tracker player would then have to use it to know how to beat it"? If those who beat it first share the information, would that not be enough to help the others too? In time yeah, maybe. But as Noaani said about some EQ2 content, people didn't share any info about it until they had their fill with it. And some people might be like me and would want to clear that content w/o a tracker, but, due to devs developing content around tracker use, it'd be almost impossible to do so.
The difficulty of PvE content, such as raids and dungeons will adapt based on the performance of the raid or group against previous bosses in that encounter.[17]
Strevi wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Strevi wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Strevi wrote: » SongRune wrote: » Strevi wrote: » I don't think games allow infinite room for improvement. I know speed runners find better ways to defeat records in games and this happens over decades. But normal players cannot invest that much effort and time. They rather start over on a new mmo. If trackers speed up the discovery process, that reduces the time players spend in the game, isn't it? What will keep the players in game when they have top gear? Node advancement, guild conflict, empire expansion, claiming or holding their Castle. That's the intent for Ashes, anyway. Players who like that and would pay subscription 2-3 years for this activity, might not need difficult raids and whatever drops from there. They'd use it for builds though. Also, not that I'm saying that Ashes will reach this level of gameplay, but I'll give a simple example of how this works in PvP. So, in a specific situation in Alpha-1 (balance of Alpha-1 was known to be basically not a priority), you could win fights using a specific interaction of Tank's abilities and Cleric's. The problem, is that unless you can see everyone's damage, and I mean quite precisely, you couldn't even tell what the interaction was doing, to execute the thing (or your enemies). The effect was quite powerful, but relied on a 5 frame window to 'hit confirm' from the Cleric's side, then the Tank activating something else on reaction with another short (I didn't measure this one) frame window. I'm only saying that for PvP players, 'practicing that' can keep them invested for years regardless of their gear because the gear isn't the thing causing it to work, but you still end up 'watching replays' to check it. Does this require a meter? No, but that's not the derail we're currently on. tl;dr some games allow for a 'peak human' level of improvement by front-loading the requirements and understanding, which generally means that the player UNDERSTANDS the game quickly, and then practices it for fun for a long time. In THAT game design type, the faster you can get EVERYONE through the front-loaded part, the better. So the Tracker would be pulling double duty. Helping people hit the ground running for understanding of how to play in the most effective way according to their style, and then 'helping them if they reach the top, where there is too much going on for a normal person to track'. If anything, I'd say normal players not having so much time to invest is a stronger argument FOR Trackers than against it. Not by much, but it CAN be that way. So you say players who would use trackers will play the game longer and also take part in the node related activities, crafting, caravan runs, sieges, politics... ? I obviously can't speak for them all, but frankly... yes. Of course, I again note that this is only true if the bulk of what is needed to 'git gud' is easy enough to understand or figure out early into a build, or early into synergizing with a group. If the game's INTENTION is to 'hide' what is required for strong play, that would lead to the opposite outcomes, and I think in that case a Tracker would be detrimental. But based on the psychology of most competitive players I understand (and there's actually a lot of overlap between fighting gamers/MOBA players and 'competitive' MMO players now, I know this from personal discussion with some as well as, well... myself I guess?) the more background you give them to enjoy their battles, the more they will engage with those systems and improve. It's the sort of person who wants to WIN more than they want to COMPETE that 'ditches a game to a new one' easily (assuming the game's design isn't innately frustrating). That means the raids will be very hard and let a very small % to defeat those bosses to push away fast "the sort of person who wants to WIN more than they want to COMPETE" What is your assumption, why the game has the intention to hide what is required for strong play, hence ruling trackers not allowed?
Azherae wrote: » Strevi wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Strevi wrote: » SongRune wrote: » Strevi wrote: » I don't think games allow infinite room for improvement. I know speed runners find better ways to defeat records in games and this happens over decades. But normal players cannot invest that much effort and time. They rather start over on a new mmo. If trackers speed up the discovery process, that reduces the time players spend in the game, isn't it? What will keep the players in game when they have top gear? Node advancement, guild conflict, empire expansion, claiming or holding their Castle. That's the intent for Ashes, anyway. Players who like that and would pay subscription 2-3 years for this activity, might not need difficult raids and whatever drops from there. They'd use it for builds though. Also, not that I'm saying that Ashes will reach this level of gameplay, but I'll give a simple example of how this works in PvP. So, in a specific situation in Alpha-1 (balance of Alpha-1 was known to be basically not a priority), you could win fights using a specific interaction of Tank's abilities and Cleric's. The problem, is that unless you can see everyone's damage, and I mean quite precisely, you couldn't even tell what the interaction was doing, to execute the thing (or your enemies). The effect was quite powerful, but relied on a 5 frame window to 'hit confirm' from the Cleric's side, then the Tank activating something else on reaction with another short (I didn't measure this one) frame window. I'm only saying that for PvP players, 'practicing that' can keep them invested for years regardless of their gear because the gear isn't the thing causing it to work, but you still end up 'watching replays' to check it. Does this require a meter? No, but that's not the derail we're currently on. tl;dr some games allow for a 'peak human' level of improvement by front-loading the requirements and understanding, which generally means that the player UNDERSTANDS the game quickly, and then practices it for fun for a long time. In THAT game design type, the faster you can get EVERYONE through the front-loaded part, the better. So the Tracker would be pulling double duty. Helping people hit the ground running for understanding of how to play in the most effective way according to their style, and then 'helping them if they reach the top, where there is too much going on for a normal person to track'. If anything, I'd say normal players not having so much time to invest is a stronger argument FOR Trackers than against it. Not by much, but it CAN be that way. So you say players who would use trackers will play the game longer and also take part in the node related activities, crafting, caravan runs, sieges, politics... ? I obviously can't speak for them all, but frankly... yes. Of course, I again note that this is only true if the bulk of what is needed to 'git gud' is easy enough to understand or figure out early into a build, or early into synergizing with a group. If the game's INTENTION is to 'hide' what is required for strong play, that would lead to the opposite outcomes, and I think in that case a Tracker would be detrimental. But based on the psychology of most competitive players I understand (and there's actually a lot of overlap between fighting gamers/MOBA players and 'competitive' MMO players now, I know this from personal discussion with some as well as, well... myself I guess?) the more background you give them to enjoy their battles, the more they will engage with those systems and improve. It's the sort of person who wants to WIN more than they want to COMPETE that 'ditches a game to a new one' easily (assuming the game's design isn't innately frustrating).
Strevi wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Strevi wrote: » SongRune wrote: » Strevi wrote: » I don't think games allow infinite room for improvement. I know speed runners find better ways to defeat records in games and this happens over decades. But normal players cannot invest that much effort and time. They rather start over on a new mmo. If trackers speed up the discovery process, that reduces the time players spend in the game, isn't it? What will keep the players in game when they have top gear? Node advancement, guild conflict, empire expansion, claiming or holding their Castle. That's the intent for Ashes, anyway. Players who like that and would pay subscription 2-3 years for this activity, might not need difficult raids and whatever drops from there. They'd use it for builds though. Also, not that I'm saying that Ashes will reach this level of gameplay, but I'll give a simple example of how this works in PvP. So, in a specific situation in Alpha-1 (balance of Alpha-1 was known to be basically not a priority), you could win fights using a specific interaction of Tank's abilities and Cleric's. The problem, is that unless you can see everyone's damage, and I mean quite precisely, you couldn't even tell what the interaction was doing, to execute the thing (or your enemies). The effect was quite powerful, but relied on a 5 frame window to 'hit confirm' from the Cleric's side, then the Tank activating something else on reaction with another short (I didn't measure this one) frame window. I'm only saying that for PvP players, 'practicing that' can keep them invested for years regardless of their gear because the gear isn't the thing causing it to work, but you still end up 'watching replays' to check it. Does this require a meter? No, but that's not the derail we're currently on. tl;dr some games allow for a 'peak human' level of improvement by front-loading the requirements and understanding, which generally means that the player UNDERSTANDS the game quickly, and then practices it for fun for a long time. In THAT game design type, the faster you can get EVERYONE through the front-loaded part, the better. So the Tracker would be pulling double duty. Helping people hit the ground running for understanding of how to play in the most effective way according to their style, and then 'helping them if they reach the top, where there is too much going on for a normal person to track'. If anything, I'd say normal players not having so much time to invest is a stronger argument FOR Trackers than against it. Not by much, but it CAN be that way. So you say players who would use trackers will play the game longer and also take part in the node related activities, crafting, caravan runs, sieges, politics... ?
Azherae wrote: » Strevi wrote: » SongRune wrote: » Strevi wrote: » I don't think games allow infinite room for improvement. I know speed runners find better ways to defeat records in games and this happens over decades. But normal players cannot invest that much effort and time. They rather start over on a new mmo. If trackers speed up the discovery process, that reduces the time players spend in the game, isn't it? What will keep the players in game when they have top gear? Node advancement, guild conflict, empire expansion, claiming or holding their Castle. That's the intent for Ashes, anyway. Players who like that and would pay subscription 2-3 years for this activity, might not need difficult raids and whatever drops from there. They'd use it for builds though. Also, not that I'm saying that Ashes will reach this level of gameplay, but I'll give a simple example of how this works in PvP. So, in a specific situation in Alpha-1 (balance of Alpha-1 was known to be basically not a priority), you could win fights using a specific interaction of Tank's abilities and Cleric's. The problem, is that unless you can see everyone's damage, and I mean quite precisely, you couldn't even tell what the interaction was doing, to execute the thing (or your enemies). The effect was quite powerful, but relied on a 5 frame window to 'hit confirm' from the Cleric's side, then the Tank activating something else on reaction with another short (I didn't measure this one) frame window. I'm only saying that for PvP players, 'practicing that' can keep them invested for years regardless of their gear because the gear isn't the thing causing it to work, but you still end up 'watching replays' to check it. Does this require a meter? No, but that's not the derail we're currently on. tl;dr some games allow for a 'peak human' level of improvement by front-loading the requirements and understanding, which generally means that the player UNDERSTANDS the game quickly, and then practices it for fun for a long time. In THAT game design type, the faster you can get EVERYONE through the front-loaded part, the better. So the Tracker would be pulling double duty. Helping people hit the ground running for understanding of how to play in the most effective way according to their style, and then 'helping them if they reach the top, where there is too much going on for a normal person to track'. If anything, I'd say normal players not having so much time to invest is a stronger argument FOR Trackers than against it. Not by much, but it CAN be that way.
Strevi wrote: » SongRune wrote: » Strevi wrote: » I don't think games allow infinite room for improvement. I know speed runners find better ways to defeat records in games and this happens over decades. But normal players cannot invest that much effort and time. They rather start over on a new mmo. If trackers speed up the discovery process, that reduces the time players spend in the game, isn't it? What will keep the players in game when they have top gear? Node advancement, guild conflict, empire expansion, claiming or holding their Castle. That's the intent for Ashes, anyway. Players who like that and would pay subscription 2-3 years for this activity, might not need difficult raids and whatever drops from there.
SongRune wrote: » Strevi wrote: » I don't think games allow infinite room for improvement. I know speed runners find better ways to defeat records in games and this happens over decades. But normal players cannot invest that much effort and time. They rather start over on a new mmo. If trackers speed up the discovery process, that reduces the time players spend in the game, isn't it? What will keep the players in game when they have top gear? Node advancement, guild conflict, empire expansion, claiming or holding their Castle. That's the intent for Ashes, anyway.
Strevi wrote: » I don't think games allow infinite room for improvement. I know speed runners find better ways to defeat records in games and this happens over decades. But normal players cannot invest that much effort and time. They rather start over on a new mmo. If trackers speed up the discovery process, that reduces the time players spend in the game, isn't it? What will keep the players in game when they have top gear?
Strevi wrote: » So it might be possible that you will defeat the raid too, even if you do more mistakes. And you will never know that you had a lower performance than Noaani. The mental/skill effort might be the same if the auto-scaling works well.
NiKr wrote: » Strevi wrote: » So it might be possible that you will defeat the raid too, even if you do more mistakes. And you will never know that you had a lower performance than Noaani. The mental/skill effort might be the same if the auto-scaling works well. Information gets around so if someone sees a new piece of gear, they'll try learning where it came from. And if they learn that it comes from a boss that a lot of people have beaten but never gotten - people will assume that it came from the "top lvl clear" drop table. So I think that the result of clearing a boss at top speeds will be known, but not the way to do it. Though I might be wrong, especially depending on how Intrepid design loot tables.
Azherae wrote: » Strevi wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Strevi wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Strevi wrote: » SongRune wrote: » Strevi wrote: » I don't think games allow infinite room for improvement. I know speed runners find better ways to defeat records in games and this happens over decades. But normal players cannot invest that much effort and time. They rather start over on a new mmo. If trackers speed up the discovery process, that reduces the time players spend in the game, isn't it? What will keep the players in game when they have top gear? Node advancement, guild conflict, empire expansion, claiming or holding their Castle. That's the intent for Ashes, anyway. Players who like that and would pay subscription 2-3 years for this activity, might not need difficult raids and whatever drops from there. They'd use it for builds though. Also, not that I'm saying that Ashes will reach this level of gameplay, but I'll give a simple example of how this works in PvP. So, in a specific situation in Alpha-1 (balance of Alpha-1 was known to be basically not a priority), you could win fights using a specific interaction of Tank's abilities and Cleric's. The problem, is that unless you can see everyone's damage, and I mean quite precisely, you couldn't even tell what the interaction was doing, to execute the thing (or your enemies). The effect was quite powerful, but relied on a 5 frame window to 'hit confirm' from the Cleric's side, then the Tank activating something else on reaction with another short (I didn't measure this one) frame window. I'm only saying that for PvP players, 'practicing that' can keep them invested for years regardless of their gear because the gear isn't the thing causing it to work, but you still end up 'watching replays' to check it. Does this require a meter? No, but that's not the derail we're currently on. tl;dr some games allow for a 'peak human' level of improvement by front-loading the requirements and understanding, which generally means that the player UNDERSTANDS the game quickly, and then practices it for fun for a long time. In THAT game design type, the faster you can get EVERYONE through the front-loaded part, the better. So the Tracker would be pulling double duty. Helping people hit the ground running for understanding of how to play in the most effective way according to their style, and then 'helping them if they reach the top, where there is too much going on for a normal person to track'. If anything, I'd say normal players not having so much time to invest is a stronger argument FOR Trackers than against it. Not by much, but it CAN be that way. So you say players who would use trackers will play the game longer and also take part in the node related activities, crafting, caravan runs, sieges, politics... ? I obviously can't speak for them all, but frankly... yes. Of course, I again note that this is only true if the bulk of what is needed to 'git gud' is easy enough to understand or figure out early into a build, or early into synergizing with a group. If the game's INTENTION is to 'hide' what is required for strong play, that would lead to the opposite outcomes, and I think in that case a Tracker would be detrimental. But based on the psychology of most competitive players I understand (and there's actually a lot of overlap between fighting gamers/MOBA players and 'competitive' MMO players now, I know this from personal discussion with some as well as, well... myself I guess?) the more background you give them to enjoy their battles, the more they will engage with those systems and improve. It's the sort of person who wants to WIN more than they want to COMPETE that 'ditches a game to a new one' easily (assuming the game's design isn't innately frustrating). That means the raids will be very hard and let a very small % to defeat those bosses to push away fast "the sort of person who wants to WIN more than they want to COMPETE" What is your assumption, why the game has the intention to hide what is required for strong play, hence ruling trackers not allowed? I don't have any assumption. That whole thing was said so long ago that it's quite possible that they didn't know exactly what it meant, or didn't know what the game would be like. Making claims about how many people you plan to have winning against your content very early into development is not necessarily meaningful. I think that if Intrepid's stance on Meters/Trackers has changed, then their 'best' option is to take the FFXIV route. I do not LIKE this because I consider it manipulative, but for the health of the game and happiness of the most players, I think focusing on the actual gameplay and balance will resolve any problems with Trackers and toxicity much more than 'trying to stop Trackers and Parsers'. I don't think they were 'hiding' anything because I feel that at the time that statement was made, there wasn't enough of anything designed to 'hide' yet'.
Azherae wrote: » I've also said that if they make 'not very hard' content, it will still achieve their goal. If they make a lot of open world content, the same thing will happen. There are lots of ways to design the game so that their comments about raids are true, the only difference will be that it has nothing to do with the complexity of the raid content itself relative to what 'top end raiders' expect. I've heard multiple times that most people don't care about that, so I am interested to see if a game like this that has no top-end raiding scene actually succeeds (if that's the path they take).
Azherae wrote: » To clarify two things then. 1. I don't care about Trackers in Ashes and I don't intend to use one. (Combat log availability is important to me, and I don't want to have no option to download it, but I'm a programmer who is on a Linux distro most of the time, the things that people consider 'Parsers' or 'scripts' are single-line commands to me, which is why I'm so concerned about what exactly their policy is) 2. I hope to play Ashes for all those reasons more than I care about the Raid content at all, personally. But that leads into two additional conclusions. I lose some of my desire to play Ashes if good gear and good builds are 'locked' behind stuff that the players who DO still use Trackers will definitely get first. And in my opinion, this WILL happen. Secondly, if the combat/'puzzle-challenge' isn't great, then gathering up 6-8 players to go out into the world and fight mobs won't be interesting or challenging and then my interest in the game would fade and I'd wish I was using a Tracker just so I could find something interesting to do or learn. Skirmishing with other players is fine, right up to the point where you're losing because their gear or builds are much better... because they're using Trackers. If somehow Intrepid avoids all those things, great. My point is that, the situation as we currently predict it would have a considerably lower potential for retention of ME as a player. The prediction is based on a lot of priors and understanding of 'how trackers/bots/parsers work' and 'How often you can catch someone using them'. If Intrepid really does figure out a way to 'prevent the three basic steps I know would lead to parsers', then the prediction would not mean anything.
Strevi wrote: » Azherae wrote: » To clarify two things then. 1. I don't care about Trackers in Ashes and I don't intend to use one. (Combat log availability is important to me, and I don't want to have no option to download it, but I'm a programmer who is on a Linux distro most of the time, the things that people consider 'Parsers' or 'scripts' are single-line commands to me, which is why I'm so concerned about what exactly their policy is) 2. I hope to play Ashes for all those reasons more than I care about the Raid content at all, personally. But that leads into two additional conclusions. I lose some of my desire to play Ashes if good gear and good builds are 'locked' behind stuff that the players who DO still use Trackers will definitely get first. And in my opinion, this WILL happen. Secondly, if the combat/'puzzle-challenge' isn't great, then gathering up 6-8 players to go out into the world and fight mobs won't be interesting or challenging and then my interest in the game would fade and I'd wish I was using a Tracker just so I could find something interesting to do or learn. Skirmishing with other players is fine, right up to the point where you're losing because their gear or builds are much better... because they're using Trackers. If somehow Intrepid avoids all those things, great. My point is that, the situation as we currently predict it would have a considerably lower potential for retention of ME as a player. The prediction is based on a lot of priors and understanding of 'how trackers/bots/parsers work' and 'How often you can catch someone using them'. If Intrepid really does figure out a way to 'prevent the three basic steps I know would lead to parsers', then the prediction would not mean anything. Being a programmer and having all that knowledge about how trackers work can you not make an algorithm to distinguish between those who use trackers and those who don't? Assume you are the one who creates the raid content.
Sapiverenus wrote: » @Noaani "This is why actual thousands of potential players stepped away from looking at this game when Steven first mentioned they will not support trackers (along with giving him the message "fuck you", which I was lucky enough to deliver on their behalf). " "fuck you" too All you do is pay lip service to shit that's important then gloss over everything that actually confronts your position and what you're saying. Words are easy to ignore I guess! Remove Logs. Remove Numbers. Remove Tooltips. Remove the Arbitrary Mechanics. Make the Game Grounded.
"This is why actual thousands of potential players stepped away from looking at this game when Steven first mentioned they will not support trackers (along with giving him the message "fuck you", which I was lucky enough to deliver on their behalf). "
Deadfool wrote: » I see people moaning about not having a combat tracker included in the game
Noaani wrote: » Deadfool wrote: » I see people moaning about not having a combat tracker included in the game Right from that introduction, you are incorrect. We are arguing that Intrepid should be bold and include one, but not moaning. The argument is basically that players that want a tracker will have one, and that may create an uneven playing field. The only way for Intrepid to balance it out is to give everyone access to a tracker - and the only way to do that is to implement one in to the game. You wont see all that "QQing" that you are looking forward to, because those of us that actually want a tracker will have one. This fact isnt really up for debate at this point, as we are already tracking combat from developer update videos. --- I dont really consider it all that important to defend combat trackers. While they are misused in some situations in some games, all it means to me if someone thinks that misuse is the bulk of situations is that this player only played those few games, and was mostly in those situations. This is basically LFG/LFR in WoW. From there, if a poster can not see that the issue was actually the fact that the game treated players as disposable, and so players treated each other as disposable, then there is no way I can use logic to convince this person of anything. The fact that there are many games out there that allow trackers and where many player use them - yet that dont see those same issues at all - that is completely over the heads of these people, and so I see no value in trying to convince them.
Deadfool wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Deadfool wrote: » I see people moaning about not having a combat tracker included in the game Right from that introduction, you are incorrect. We are arguing that Intrepid should be bold and include one, but not moaning. The argument is basically that players that want a tracker will have one, and that may create an uneven playing field. The only way for Intrepid to balance it out is to give everyone access to a tracker - and the only way to do that is to implement one in to the game. You wont see all that "QQing" that you are looking forward to, because those of us that actually want a tracker will have one. This fact isnt really up for debate at this point, as we are already tracking combat from developer update videos. --- I dont really consider it all that important to defend combat trackers. While they are misused in some situations in some games, all it means to me if someone thinks that misuse is the bulk of situations is that this player only played those few games, and was mostly in those situations. This is basically LFG/LFR in WoW. From there, if a poster can not see that the issue was actually the fact that the game treated players as disposable, and so players treated each other as disposable, then there is no way I can use logic to convince this person of anything. The fact that there are many games out there that allow trackers and where many player use them - yet that dont see those same issues at all - that is completely over the heads of these people, and so I see no value in trying to convince them. Well this is a comment that i can agree on. There is no need to discuss about it further because there will be a combat tracker for people that want it, if intrepid includes it or not.
Deadfool wrote: » I see people moaning about not having a combat tracker included in the game and i know why that is. Most people would suck at the game. "OHH there is no way of telling if im making any improvements without it" How about investing the actual time to figure out what you want to know about your progress? This discussion is getting ridiculous because there will always be someone who will defend DPS meter or combat tracker in general, because they know they can't function without it. Snowflakes... Im tired of this discussion so im not even going to bother participating in it anymore. Because i know what is coming... More snowflakes I hope Intrepid Studios will not include a combat tracker or any form of DPS meter so i will get to read all the QQing in a form of "ohh im not going to play this game"
Mag7spy wrote: » He says he isn't capable of communicating as a group to clear content in cells.
