Noaani wrote: » Deadfool wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Deadfool wrote: » I see people moaning about not having a combat tracker included in the game Right from that introduction, you are incorrect. We are arguing that Intrepid should be bold and include one, but not moaning. The argument is basically that players that want a tracker will have one, and that may create an uneven playing field. The only way for Intrepid to balance it out is to give everyone access to a tracker - and the only way to do that is to implement one in to the game. You wont see all that "QQing" that you are looking forward to, because those of us that actually want a tracker will have one. This fact isnt really up for debate at this point, as we are already tracking combat from developer update videos. --- I dont really consider it all that important to defend combat trackers. While they are misused in some situations in some games, all it means to me if someone thinks that misuse is the bulk of situations is that this player only played those few games, and was mostly in those situations. This is basically LFG/LFR in WoW. From there, if a poster can not see that the issue was actually the fact that the game treated players as disposable, and so players treated each other as disposable, then there is no way I can use logic to convince this person of anything. The fact that there are many games out there that allow trackers and where many player use them - yet that dont see those same issues at all - that is completely over the heads of these people, and so I see no value in trying to convince them. Well this is a comment that i can agree on. There is no need to discuss about it further because there will be a combat tracker for people that want it, if intrepid includes it or not. If you feel no need to discuss it further, that's great. Some of the rest of us still do, however. I do have two questions for you though, feel free to not bother answering if you like. If trackers are going to exist in Ashes for anyone that wants to use them, would you consider it an unfair advantage if you lost to someone that uses one? I mean, it IS an advantage, the question is whether or not it is unfair. Second, if you do consider it an unfair advantage, can you think of any better way for Intrepid to even that advantage out other than adding a combat tracker to the game? Keep in mind, trackers for Ashes are a given - we are looking for a solution that keeps this in mind.
Deadfool wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Deadfool wrote: » I see people moaning about not having a combat tracker included in the game Right from that introduction, you are incorrect. We are arguing that Intrepid should be bold and include one, but not moaning. The argument is basically that players that want a tracker will have one, and that may create an uneven playing field. The only way for Intrepid to balance it out is to give everyone access to a tracker - and the only way to do that is to implement one in to the game. You wont see all that "QQing" that you are looking forward to, because those of us that actually want a tracker will have one. This fact isnt really up for debate at this point, as we are already tracking combat from developer update videos. --- I dont really consider it all that important to defend combat trackers. While they are misused in some situations in some games, all it means to me if someone thinks that misuse is the bulk of situations is that this player only played those few games, and was mostly in those situations. This is basically LFG/LFR in WoW. From there, if a poster can not see that the issue was actually the fact that the game treated players as disposable, and so players treated each other as disposable, then there is no way I can use logic to convince this person of anything. The fact that there are many games out there that allow trackers and where many player use them - yet that dont see those same issues at all - that is completely over the heads of these people, and so I see no value in trying to convince them. Well this is a comment that i can agree on. There is no need to discuss about it further because there will be a combat tracker for people that want it, if intrepid includes it or not.
Noaani wrote: » Deadfool wrote: » I see people moaning about not having a combat tracker included in the game Right from that introduction, you are incorrect. We are arguing that Intrepid should be bold and include one, but not moaning. The argument is basically that players that want a tracker will have one, and that may create an uneven playing field. The only way for Intrepid to balance it out is to give everyone access to a tracker - and the only way to do that is to implement one in to the game. You wont see all that "QQing" that you are looking forward to, because those of us that actually want a tracker will have one. This fact isnt really up for debate at this point, as we are already tracking combat from developer update videos. --- I dont really consider it all that important to defend combat trackers. While they are misused in some situations in some games, all it means to me if someone thinks that misuse is the bulk of situations is that this player only played those few games, and was mostly in those situations. This is basically LFG/LFR in WoW. From there, if a poster can not see that the issue was actually the fact that the game treated players as disposable, and so players treated each other as disposable, then there is no way I can use logic to convince this person of anything. The fact that there are many games out there that allow trackers and where many player use them - yet that dont see those same issues at all - that is completely over the heads of these people, and so I see no value in trying to convince them.
Deadfool wrote: » I see people moaning about not having a combat tracker included in the game
Deadfool wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Deadfool wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Deadfool wrote: » I see people moaning about not having a combat tracker included in the game Right from that introduction, you are incorrect. We are arguing that Intrepid should be bold and include one, but not moaning. The argument is basically that players that want a tracker will have one, and that may create an uneven playing field. The only way for Intrepid to balance it out is to give everyone access to a tracker - and the only way to do that is to implement one in to the game. You wont see all that "QQing" that you are looking forward to, because those of us that actually want a tracker will have one. This fact isnt really up for debate at this point, as we are already tracking combat from developer update videos. --- I dont really consider it all that important to defend combat trackers. While they are misused in some situations in some games, all it means to me if someone thinks that misuse is the bulk of situations is that this player only played those few games, and was mostly in those situations. This is basically LFG/LFR in WoW. From there, if a poster can not see that the issue was actually the fact that the game treated players as disposable, and so players treated each other as disposable, then there is no way I can use logic to convince this person of anything. The fact that there are many games out there that allow trackers and where many player use them - yet that dont see those same issues at all - that is completely over the heads of these people, and so I see no value in trying to convince them. Well this is a comment that i can agree on. There is no need to discuss about it further because there will be a combat tracker for people that want it, if intrepid includes it or not. If you feel no need to discuss it further, that's great. Some of the rest of us still do, however. I do have two questions for you though, feel free to not bother answering if you like. If trackers are going to exist in Ashes for anyone that wants to use them, would you consider it an unfair advantage if you lost to someone that uses one? I mean, it IS an advantage, the question is whether or not it is unfair. Second, if you do consider it an unfair advantage, can you think of any better way for Intrepid to even that advantage out other than adding a combat tracker to the game? Keep in mind, trackers for Ashes are a given - we are looking for a solution that keeps this in mind. My solution to both of the cases if Intrepid includes the tracker or not: -Guild or party leaders should have less control of who is accepted or kicked from a guild/party (since people claim to use the tracker for personal growth only).
Strevi wrote: » What if players would have the possibility to vote, just like electing the mayor, to allow or ban the usage of trackers? Because citizenship is bound to all alts of that player, that would affect the player not the character. Also how would it be if this vote would happen for the entire server instead of just a node?
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » He says he isn't capable of communicating as a group to clear content in cells. Show anyone where I said that. A combat tracker isn't a substitute for communication within a group or raid. Your suggestion that it may be simply tells everyone that you don't know anything about how groups or raids actually function - my assumption is that you have never actually played an MMO, based on your apparent knowledge of them. Worse than that, your assertion that I am saying that I don't or won't communicate with others in my group or raid tells everyone that you are more than willing to outright lie if you think it may further your cause. Our discussion has gone far past any point where you could make the honest mistake to think that I am saying this. Honestly, that is what you are doing here - outright lying in order to try and further your position in an argument on the Internet. Since they are your actions here, and since actions define the person, that is the kind of person you are. If you wish to refute this point that the above is the kind of person you are, literally all you need to do is quote me where I said I would use a combat tracker in place of communication with players in my group or raid.
Mag7spy wrote: » He says he isn't capable of communicating as a group to clear content in cells.
SongRune wrote: » Strevi wrote: » What if players would have the possibility to vote, just like electing the mayor, to allow or ban the usage of trackers? Because citizenship is bound to all alts of that player, that would affect the player not the character. Also how would it be if this vote would happen for the entire server instead of just a node? Then there would be trackers/parsers that use streams/videos, and can't be stopped. It's just "What if they ban trackers?", but applied to servers instead of universally. External trackers will be written and used, instead of the game's provided tracker. You don't get the benefit of "tracker players will move to a different server" because no-one is going to start over from level 1 just because their server changed it's mind eventually. They'll just write the ACT (not Ashes Client) plugin, and start parsing their combat video (on their other PC, if need be). Remember that the goal of the "Pro Tracker" group here is not to have trackers for themselves. It is to remove their own competitive advantage by letting everyone have them, so the game is more fair. The ones that just want their own don't bother to post here, because you can't stop them. The other idea proposed by the "Pro Tracker" group here, as you know, is to have trackers be guild-based. This lets people who want to "not be tracked" easily group with like-minded individuals who are encouraged by the system to respect their preferences. This only works if there is an in-game tracker provided (which doesn't happen if a server, or even node, eventually votes to turn it off). This provides a protection against more powerful external trackers by making it not worth the effort to write one. As a result, the "I will join a guild without the tracker perk" means the tracker will respect your limitation. This is possible only because of the convenience of having a tracker provided. If it is more convenient to join a guild with trackers enabled, than for one player in the world to write a tracker for Ashes, then that is what will happen. If an in-game tracker is not provided, is later voted away by the node or server, or is made too difficult to access by players who are interested, then an external tracker will be created because it is no longer pointless to do so. This works for tracker players, but removes ability for others to avoid trackers by choosing to play in a guild without the tracker perk, because there is now an external tracker available will not respect that limitation. It's work to write an external tracker, but it's not that much work, and once one exists it will be shared. If you make it more convenient to not bother, you can do thing like have tracker-free guilds. If you don't, you lose even that option. And so to finally address your question directly: If a guild has a choice between "leave a node we have each invested hundreds of hours in, because they now voted to ban trackers" and "our programmer spends 30 hours writing a tracker as this week's hobby project", they're not gonna choose "abandon our node". If a guild has a choice between "leave a server we have each invested thousands of hours in, and maybe have world firsts on, because they now voted to ban trackers" and "our programmer spends 30 hours writing a tracker as this week's hobby project", they're not gonna choose "abandon our server". In any case where you say "no trackers allowed", or even "we'll only give you one if you give up your home" (node/server/etc), you're going to have external trackers that you don't control. The only "lever" you get is the temptation of convenience. It's not that hard to write an external tracker.
Deadfool wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Deadfool wrote: » Sapiverenus it will also give you a chance to get your account suspended for a certain period of time if 3rd party tools wouldn't be allowed. This is something I have gone in to far more detail than I would want to go in. A software developer can only prevent you from using tools that interact with their software. Since combat trackers are generally stand alone applications, they cant do anything about it. Further to this point, a combat tracker doesnt even need to be run while the game client is being run. It is perfectly viable to run a tracker after the fact - it is also viable to run it on a different computer to the one the game client is on. I am sure you would agree that software running on a totally different computer is out of the scope of any terms of service for any software. Yep, i completely agree. But as you mentioned before, they are not completely accurate. In some cases they are straight up terrible xD
Noaani wrote: » Deadfool wrote: » Sapiverenus it will also give you a chance to get your account suspended for a certain period of time if 3rd party tools wouldn't be allowed. This is something I have gone in to far more detail than I would want to go in. A software developer can only prevent you from using tools that interact with their software. Since combat trackers are generally stand alone applications, they cant do anything about it. Further to this point, a combat tracker doesnt even need to be run while the game client is being run. It is perfectly viable to run a tracker after the fact - it is also viable to run it on a different computer to the one the game client is on. I am sure you would agree that software running on a totally different computer is out of the scope of any terms of service for any software.
Deadfool wrote: » Sapiverenus it will also give you a chance to get your account suspended for a certain period of time if 3rd party tools wouldn't be allowed.
Strevi wrote: » Anyway, until AoC comes out we will see other attempts too, like the Throne and Liberty mmo. Maybe they have new ideas about this. Or maybe they delayed the release because they follow this thread and we found no solution yet
Azherae wrote: » Strevi wrote: » Anyway, until AoC comes out we will see other attempts too, like the Throne and Liberty mmo. Maybe they have new ideas about this. Or maybe they delayed the release because they follow this thread and we found no solution yet Why would Throne and Liberty bother to make Trackers unavailable though? For a game to do this, they would have to think it matters for some reason. Since that's not actually an obvious conclusion to everyone (particularly not Korean MMO creators), they might just... not care at all about parser/tracker options.
Strevi wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Strevi wrote: » Anyway, until AoC comes out we will see other attempts too, like the Throne and Liberty mmo. Maybe they have new ideas about this. Or maybe they delayed the release because they follow this thread and we found no solution yet Why would Throne and Liberty bother to make Trackers unavailable though? For a game to do this, they would have to think it matters for some reason. Since that's not actually an obvious conclusion to everyone (particularly not Korean MMO creators), they might just... not care at all about parser/tracker options. Maybe they might be like the kind of managers I hate the most. When I go to interviews they hire me only if I allow them to track my performance and they give me higher salary only if I work every day of the week. I wonder if Steven will kick that developer out from his guild, who made those birds not be scared of him and not fly away. I was watching the League of Legends stream https://lolesports.com/vod/108998961199240256/1/vnEYQS4k1nM That's how players should earn their unique legendary gear In special rooms with computers prepared in advance and watched by the entire world. (I wonder if they test them for how much coffee they have in their blood.) These rooms would also solve the problem when owning intelligent androids sometime in 100 years will be a common thing... until genetically modified players will be created. But maybe Throne and Liberty will not want to have a competitive raid system where the most skilled will get good items, but the ones who can afford buying something from an in-game shop too for real money. Which is also a competition but with real life skills.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani Why do you keep repeating stuff like "there's no way to figure out what's going on" when I've suggested several ways to know what's going on to you already. We've had this talk several times. And it boils down to "well we're hacking the servers either way bud". Doubt it, but you might sure LMAO. Talking about ToS after talking about stealing information from the server like jesus fucking christ what kind of schizophrenic two faced shit is this. It's not worth discussing because you want to bullshit, threaten, and lie for whatever chimp motivation of yours.
Deadfool wrote: » But if Intrepid won't include a combat tracker, i am not worried as much because we all know that 3rd party trackers are not completely accurate.
Mag7spy wrote: » We have gone over this you have said that already lmao. You are forgetting other discussions about content which is fine.
I get you are mad and are missing the "in cells" part. Like i said we have gone over this in action combat to tab about having other people help call things out and work together, rather than just the main raid leader calling things out. You deemed you can't do that, which is naïve at best.
I've played more mmorpgs then you, and honestly if you are looking at trackers data most the time i don't view that as playing a mmorpg.
and there are hundreds of pages, not going to go find the post where you start arguing you cant do that and saying it is stupid lol.
Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani Why do you keep repeating stuff like "there's no way to figure out what's going on" when I've suggested several ways to know what's going on to you already. We've had this talk several times. And it boils down to "well we're hacking the servers either way bud". Doubt it, but you might sure LMAO. Talking about ToS after talking about stealing information from the server like jesus fucking christ what kind of schizophrenic two faced shit is this. It's not worth discussing because you want to bullshit, threaten, and lie for whatever chimp motivation of yours. Your suggestions for ways to make it so a person can tell what is going on just by looking around all amount to "let's make the game shit". If you were put in charge of Nascar or something, and you were given a problem to solve, your solution would be "lers just make the cars all drive slower". That is the equivalent of what you have suggested here. You may accept that as a solution, I do not. As to "hacking the server", not quite. The point I was making there was that removing all numerical feedback from players would simply see players leave - but still wouldn't stop people getting information if they really wanted it. I guess that went well over your head.
Sapiverenus wrote: » "Getting it if they really wanted it" -- From the servers. Yes. . . right. . . with tools such as one would use when hacking I bet.
Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » "Getting it if they really wanted it" -- From the servers. Yes. . . right. . . with tools such as one would use when hacking I bet. Yeah, but at this point we are talking about a dead game. That is the point I was making - your suggestion will kill the game before it would stop people using combat trackers. Do you understand that yet?
Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » "Getting it if they really wanted it" -- From the servers. Yes. . . right. . . with tools such as one would use when hacking I bet. Yeah, but at this point we are talking about a dead game. That is the point I was making - your suggestion will kill the game before it would stop people using combat trackers. Do you understand that yet? Does repeating it make it true yet? Just making sure.
Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » "Getting it if they really wanted it" -- From the servers. Yes. . . right. . . with tools such as one would use when hacking I bet. Yeah, but at this point we are talking about a dead game. That is the point I was making - your suggestion will kill the game before it would stop people using combat trackers. Do you understand that yet? Does repeating it make it true yet? Just making sure. Just making sure you understand. If you remove all numerical combat feedback from players, the only players that would be left playing the game are those that are completely un-invested in said game. Anyone invested in the game, or even just wanting to improve at the games they play - would simply go elsewhere. Sure, YOU may play, but you've spent a few weeks telling us all how you don't even like games and don't even play them. You are exactly the kind of un-invested player that may stick around. We can even go one full step back from this and point out that all of this is simply nothing more than you having a fantasy about the game. We know the game will have a combat log - yet you keep repeating this fantasy of yours where it doesn't.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » "Getting it if they really wanted it" -- From the servers. Yes. . . right. . . with tools such as one would use when hacking I bet. Yeah, but at this point we are talking about a dead game. That is the point I was making - your suggestion will kill the game before it would stop people using combat trackers. Do you understand that yet? Does repeating it make it true yet? Just making sure. Just making sure you understand. If you remove all numerical combat feedback from players, the only players that would be left playing the game are those that are completely un-invested in said game. Anyone invested in the game, or even just wanting to improve at the games they play - would simply go elsewhere. Sure, YOU may play, but you've spent a few weeks telling us all how you don't even like games and don't even play them. You are exactly the kind of un-invested player that may stick around. We can even go one full step back from this and point out that all of this is simply nothing more than you having a fantasy about the game. We know the game will have a combat log - yet you keep repeating this fantasy of yours where it doesn't. Next I will suggest some "numerical transparency" that amounts to some UI or visual update of damage done, healing, whatever. The next steps after this from you are, "any amount of numerical transparency, such as UI that updates from reaching certain thresholds of damage, will make the game easy to reverse engineer" Then after all the various ways I suggest the game can be difficult to reverse engineer while still providing information, you say, "dead game" Yet this process could continue on and on until it is both difficult to reverse engineer and transparent enough to players to be understandable and enjoyable. All the while adding in new mechanics, grounding feedback, immersion, so on and so forth. Even resulting in a game that counters bots and braindeadness, while also rewarding deep and grounded intuition, which would make insights and excellence more impressive. . . Fin
Sapiverenus wrote: » Yet this process could continue on and on until it is both difficult to reverse engineer and transparent enough to players to be understandable and enjoyable.
