First, combat trackers are not inherently add ons. Add ons are actually fairly easy to prevent.
While Steven has said they won't "allow" trackers, that doesn't mean they can make an actual rule about it. I am able to run any stand alone applications on my computer that I like, and if it does not interact with Intrepids software, they have no say at all in it.
Literally none at all.
In fact, if they even look at what applications we are all running at the same time as we run the game client, that by itself will go against privacy laws in a number of jurisdictions - and you can't sign away basic rights that are granted to you by law.
Now, when you contrast this to the notion that a combat tracker in Ashes can be run while the games client isn't even running - or indeed can be run on a totally different computer - it starts to become obvious how foolish it would be to even take a step down this road.
But if Intrepid won't include a combat tracker, i am not worried as much because we all know that 3rd party trackers are not completely accurate.
In my experience, the only "inaccuracy" a third party tracker has is in relation to range. If combat is taking place too far away to be logged on your client, obviously the tracker wont be able to use the data.
This is why some guilds run a server where all guild members have their log sent to, and it merges all logs in to one in order to run through a tracker.
This is what I wanted to post too, but I chosen to answer differently when considering the 30 hour effort to create a 3rd party tracker.
Such common databases can be very valuable and I think would happen anyway, with or without an in-game tracker. Then the 3rd party tracker would become superior to the in-game one and players would use those one instead the in-game one.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
You can believe what you want doesn't change what you have said though, we had a giant discussion over it and you refuses to believe action combat people can handle more going on and any amount of coop effort with communication. Maybe you are starting to understand why I keep saying you have bad takes.
From what I can tell, you are saying I have bad takes because you aren't actually reading any posts, and just assuming people say things they don't say.
If we did indeed have a "giant discussion" over it, it would be really easy for you to find.
You claim you don't want to have another "giant discussion" over it again, which is great - I don't want to either. What I want you to do is to tell me where I said what would lead you to saying this...
He says he isn't capable of communicating as a group to clear content in cells.
That isn't something I have ever said, because it straight up isn't true.
What I have said is that your suggestion of breaking a raid up in to "cells" and having them call stuff simply wouldn't work. Other than that, I have literally no idea at all where you would get the idea that I have said I can't communicate to a raid.
This is why I am asking you to quote it. You are saying that I said something that I would not say.
I'm not going to have a giant discussion with you again over this, if you care what people say listen and be open to ideas. All you have shown is care for what you want and assuming I'm suddenly talking about calling off abilities which is weird. It shouldn't be under to understand having a main lead and cell groups to share communication with each other based on mechs you need to deal with.
What you haven't done is explain how this is a replacement for a combat tracker.
You are talking about something that is happening at a different time to when you would use a combat tracker, and is performing a function that a combat tracker does not perform. You are talking about calls during combat here, which is not where a tracker is it's most effective.
Have already gone over communication and talking to your team to figure things out over time rather than relying on a tracker for everything.
Yeah, but you have totally ignored the fact that a combat tracker doesn't stop the need to talk to your group or raid to work this out.
In fact, it adds to it.
I recall spending hours in Teamspeak back in the day talking to people in the guild about the encounter we were working on. We would all be looking over the data from the previous nights raid, discussing what we each thought may be going on.
This is why your suggestion about combat trackers and communication are just erroneous. Trackers do not supplant communication.
Post are there it doesn't matter how much you try to deny it lmao. I find its funny you are trying to attempt to back track now. Your post were read and you triple downed on them is the funny thing. Don't ask me to got through hundreds of pages because you always have garbage takes.
Trackers don't add to anything unless yo mean talking about making the game easier and requiring less communication. Nor does any game need to be built around trackers and invisible mechanics you need to deal with, as far as I'm concerned that is a issue with older games and their lack of technology to add more difficulty. Such difficulty that can only come from action combat and not looking at math sheets.
Post are there it doesn't matter how much you try to deny it lmao. I find its funny you are trying to attempt to back track now.
I mean, if they are there, just quote them.
It would take less time and effort than you have already spent replying to me asking you to quote them.
Trackers don't add to anything unless yo mean talking about making the game easier and requiring less communication.
Again, trackers do not result in less communication being needed.
While an argument can be made that they make the game easier, they only do this if a developer doesn't take them in to account (directly or indirectly) when developing content for the game.
as far as I'm concerned that is a issue with older games and their lack of technology to add more difficulty.
Those "old games" you talk about were able to create content so difficult that even with trackers, players couldn't kill it for a full year, and needed a level cap increase. Kids these days would cry at the difficulty of much of the content of those "old games" that you are deriding here, the same "old games" that were being referred to when Steven said "Make MMO's Great Again".
Again, you are just showing your ignorance of all things MMO here - again. You have a bias towards action combat that is borne out of your preference for fighting games, and have no understanding of the depth capable with a tab target system.
Post are there it doesn't matter how much you try to deny it lmao. I find its funny you are trying to attempt to back track now.
I mean, if they are there, just quote them.
It would take less time and effort than you have already spent replying to me asking you to quote them.
Trackers don't add to anything unless yo mean talking about making the game easier and requiring less communication.
Again, trackers do not result in less communication being needed.
While an argument can be made that they make the game easier, they only do this if a developer doesn't take them in to account (directly or indirectly) when developing content for the game.
as far as I'm concerned that is a issue with older games and their lack of technology to add more difficulty.
Those "old games" you talk about were able to create content so difficult that even with trackers, players couldn't kill it for a full year, and needed a level cap increase. Kids these days would cry at the difficulty of much of the content of those "old games" that you are deriding here, the same "old games" that were being referred to when Steven said "Make MMO's Great Again".
Again, you are just showing your ignorance of all things MMO here - again. You have a bias towards action combat that is borne out of your preference for fighting games, and have no understanding of the depth capable with a tab target system.
Naa I'm not looking through a ton of post to find them, ill just remember how many crappy takes you have.
Post are there it doesn't matter how much you try to deny it lmao. I find its funny you are trying to attempt to back track now.
I mean, if they are there, just quote them.
It would take less time and effort than you have already spent replying to me asking you to quote them.
Trackers don't add to anything unless yo mean talking about making the game easier and requiring less communication.
Again, trackers do not result in less communication being needed.
While an argument can be made that they make the game easier, they only do this if a developer doesn't take them in to account (directly or indirectly) when developing content for the game.
as far as I'm concerned that is a issue with older games and their lack of technology to add more difficulty.
Those "old games" you talk about were able to create content so difficult that even with trackers, players couldn't kill it for a full year, and needed a level cap increase. Kids these days would cry at the difficulty of much of the content of those "old games" that you are deriding here, the same "old games" that were being referred to when Steven said "Make MMO's Great Again".
Again, you are just showing your ignorance of all things MMO here - again. You have a bias towards action combat that is borne out of your preference for fighting games, and have no understanding of the depth capable with a tab target system.
It's not likely that Mag prefers Action Combat because of fighting games. In my experience, more serious fighting game players prefer something closer to Tab or Hybrid. He probably prefers it as a result of his personality and personal preferences, moreso than any fighting game parallel.
You refuse to engage with a question that would reveal your general opinion on the matter.
No, your question is in relation to combat feedback in general, not to a combat tracker.
They are different matters entirely.
Combat feedback in general isn't relevant even though it determines the relevancy, possibility, and impact of combat trackers?
As well as the enjoyment of a game?
It's not the right place for it, in a free forum and 180 page thread?
Again, you are just showing your ignorance of all things MMO here - again. You have a bias towards action combat that is borne out of your preference for fighting games, and have no understanding of the depth capable with a tab target system.
my assumption is that you have never actually played an MMO, based on your apparent knowledge of them
It is funny how this is always your go to in talking shit about peoples experience that don't agree with you. When you know literally nothing about them.
Like you are proving again and again how hypocritical you are talking about it being a school kid insult yet you can't stop going back to this yourself.
I understand TAB target completely well and the lack of depth from the combat front of it compared to what action games do. And the growth to the genre it have been getting over the MANY YEARS taking from action elements.
It really can't trust you on you playing other mmorpgs besides EQ because it seems like you have not or you would understand what I'm talking about. This has nothing to do with fighting games, you are simply talking out of your ass because as I've before you don't care what people think just what you want. Leading you to create weird assumptions on people you don't know or care to understand.
Depth is only added onto more when you include more action combat and you have all the stat and skill traits of tab because that doesn't go away. You are only adding more levels on to it.
Then, what happens is a member refuses because, as some people said on this topic, they dislike this tool ?
"Don't go in guild who wish to perform in high end if you don't want the use of tracker" yes... but if all people in the guild have the same mindset about this topic, there is no problem about the "bad" use people doing it.
Well the reality is that if someone wants to improve they have to put themselves in a situation that allows it. Using any and all tools available definitely helps. If they want to stagnate that is their choice and unfortunately that does sometimes impact more than just themselves, which in this case would be however many people are doing dungeons/raids etc. They can be excluded which in all honestly if someone was having a problem in their role and not willing to improve based on feedback or such then I would remove them. It's about the many not that one person.
But this is best case and is not always used this way due to every person being different.
Well the reality is that if someone wants to improve they have to put themselves in a situation that allows it. Using any and all tools available definitely helps. If they want to stagnate that is their choice and unfortunately that does sometimes impact more than just themselves, which in this case would be however many people are doing dungeons/raids etc. They can be excluded which in all honestly if someone was having a problem in their role and not willing to improve based on feedback or such then I would remove them. It's about the many not that one person.
But this is best case and is not always used this way due to every person being different.
Sure, i used tracker more or less depending on games, and mainly how willingly i was to master my character to the top (i did not raid lead a lot in "top end" so the tracker to help to understand what happened is not a case that was a real deal for me)
and used it a lot when people asked me "how to get better" ... learning them how to understand the game, to ensure them to not need me patch after patch (while guide make you dependant on guides, imo)
The problem is : what happen when player that want enjoy, try be "simply good" goes in a party where people try to perform ? he gets kick. Or FFXIV way : silence, or wow way "stfu noob L2P" (could also be the social people but... lets see worst cases).
The idea of guild perk tracker avoid situation when people with mindset A fall with team with mindset B.
Both are playing the game the good way, their own good way, and both are importatn for the game health, but due to different mindset, the risk of toxicity is real. Lets get it clear and allow people to have fast as many way to find the guild that fit their taste as possible. And sure, if this topic proves one thing : tracker is a big point to chose your guildmate !
the way the game is currently following is FFXIV one : not allowed, but used a lot, to a point a site allow people to upload it... and make people who could want to not be "tracked" to have their data on it... Kick are silent because what is banned is not tracker use, but kicking while expressing "too low DPS" (so... simply toxic speak) and people angry to get kicked without reason, or having to keep a bad DPS in "farming party" for the fear to be reported and banned. Not a sane environment... prefer when people simply chose and know the consequences of their choices
Depth is only added onto more when you include more action combat and you have all the stat and skill traits of tab because that doesn't go away.
This right here is one of those comments that leaves anyone reading thinking you have never played an MMO.
I mean, anyone that has played WoW over time and seen the games combat gain and lose massive amounts of depth at various times would just sit there shaking their head at this comment.
You refuse to engage with a question that would reveal your general opinion on the matter.
No, your question is in relation to combat feedback in general, not to a combat tracker.
They are different matters entirely.
Combat feedback in general isn't relevant even though it determines the relevancy, possibility, and impact of combat trackers?
As well as the enjoyment of a game?
It's not the right place for it, in a free forum and 180 page thread?
Combat feedback that players get - as in, that is designed for players to easily understand during combat - is not the same thing nor does it serve the same purpose as a combat tracker. Combat feedback is usually only a subset of the data a combat tracker uses, because players simply cant absorb enough data fast enough for developers to present all of it to players.
This is indeed a free forum, and you are free to post what ever you want where ever you want it, within reason. You are also free to not post anything you dont want to post.
The thing is, so am I.
As I have said, *I* am not answering that question in this thread.
Depth is only added onto more when you include more action combat and you have all the stat and skill traits of tab because that doesn't go away.
This right here is one of those comments that leaves anyone reading thinking you have never played an MMO.
I mean, anyone that has played WoW over time and seen the games combat gain and lose massive amounts of depth at various times would just sit there shaking their head at this comment.
Your typical disgusting behavior doesn't surprise me you will manipulate anything any chance you get.
Unless you want to talk about certain mechanics that have changed so they can be discussed in what I think based on what I AM saying do not try to bring up blanket statements.
You refuse to engage with a question that would reveal your general opinion on the matter.
No, your question is in relation to combat feedback in general, not to a combat tracker.
They are different matters entirely.
Combat feedback in general isn't relevant even though it determines the relevancy, possibility, and impact of combat trackers?
As well as the enjoyment of a game?
It's not the right place for it, in a free forum and 180 page thread?
Combat feedback that players get - as in, that is designed for players to easily understand during combat - is not the same thing nor does it serve the same purpose as a combat tracker. Combat feedback is usually only a subset of the data a combat tracker uses, because players simply cant absorb enough data fast enough for developers to present all of it to players.
This is indeed a free forum, and you are free to post what ever you want where ever you want it, within reason. You are also free to not post anything you dont want to post.
The thing is, so am I.
As I have said, *I* am not answering that question in this thread.
Is that a problem?
Are we talking about combat feedback now?
You're talking about combat feedback and giving your opinion?
""Yet this process could continue on and on until it is both difficult to reverse engineer and transparent enough to players to be understandable and enjoyable.
All the while adding in new mechanics, grounding feedback, immersion, so on and so forth.
Even resulting in a game that counters bots and braindeadness, while also rewarding deep and grounded intuition, which would make insights and excellence more impressive. . .
Fin "
Problem?
Moreover a game that can be 'solved' with log reading after the fact is not dynamic; it is static. Do you want static content?
Are you hoping for static content?
Are you hoping for static content?
Are you hoping to beat static content with trackers?
Are you hoping trackers will be giving you feedback mid-fight as to their damage and effect?
The problem is that you insist players shouldn't have to overcome obstacles to information acquisition in-game because you want WoW raids and omniscience.
"players simply cant absorb enough data fast enough for developers to present all of it to players."
Feedback that builds on a person's intuitions, player intuition, by being 'based in reality' in a way that is consistent with 'real reality' and the 'game's reality' in an intertwined way makes Feedback easier to absorb and process.
Just as a CoD Player learns to extract information from the screen and notice the camoflouged pixels of a person in the bush, any MMO player can pick up on information presented by the game. But numbers are dumb and not fun.
If this feedback is difficult to reduce to numerical formulas and trackers can't be used due to both the difficulty of reducing the game in such a way, machine recognition hostilities, limited client information, and the variability to "mobs", the player will have to focus on alternatives to overcoming challenges rather than "lose then look through the logs then metagame harder" such as by using their INTELLIGENCE and RESOURCEFULNESS, as well as SKILL and KNOWLEDGE beyond EXPLOITS. Perhaps yall should just try again? git gud?
Or maybe just invite more people next time; maybe ask someone who can lead the group? Go check out the marketplace in-game? Go elsewhere?
Trackers aren't a golden goose of fun. Except to you, and those you surround yourself with that are just like you.
There are people with more than double the data processing as you.
Much of it is skill based, familiarity, intuition. Much of it is a difference in attributes; they just process things quicker. They should be rewarded for that merit OVER you; rather than you. You excluded. Not you.
The 'data' available shouldn't be numbers; it should be intertwined with what is visible on-screen, audio, impact, response, reaction, behavior, cause & effect. It should intertwine with Sense, Intuition, Reason, Judgement and Knowledge for a cohesively immersive game that sets up, enables, promotes, establishes and generates fUn
The problem is that you insist players shouldn't have to overcome obstacles to information acquisition in-game because you want WoW raids and omniscience.
So, anyone that has spent any time on these forums would know that I consider WoW to be the single worst thing to happen to the MMO genre ever. It is a blight, not something to be copied.
As to your comment that I insist players shouldn't have to overcome obstacles to gain information - I never said that.
Before I go further, explain to me exactly how a guild is able to get detailed information about an encounter without a combat tracker.
The rest of.my response to the a ove post is awaiting your answer to this question.
The problem is that you insist players shouldn't have to overcome obstacles to information acquisition in-game because you want WoW raids and omniscience.
So, anyone that has spent any time on these forums would know that I consider WoW to be the single worst thing to happen to the MMO genre ever. It is a blight, not something to be copied.
As to your comment that I insist players shouldn't have to overcome obstacles to gain information - I never said that.
Before I go further, explain to me exactly how a guild is able to get detailed information about an encounter without a combat tracker.
The rest of.my response to the a ove post is awaiting your answer to this question.
The only important matter here is whether said guild overcomes the encounter; however the difficulty is determined is multiplicit.
Information acquisition and processing can be rewarded without numerical feedback and trackers.
As I said in my above post that you quoted, i will continue my reply to the post of yours that I quoted (though not to the other post of yours above it) once you have answered the question I asked you.
This is how discussion works.
I'll ask it again - other than a combat tracker, how are players expected to obtain detailed data about an encounter.
Edit to add; you only get to decide what is important to you, not what is important to everyone. I am asking you a direct question looking for more information from you so that I can answer your question that you asked me. That question may not be important to you, but it is required for me to be able to answer your question.
Since you do not know what the answer I am going to give to your question is, you are in no position at all to say whether the question I asked is important or not.
This thread is not only about combat trackers but is also related to the "cancel culture" and frustration when one feels it should be able to but cannot cancel somebody.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
I'll ask it again - other than a combat tracker, how are players expected to obtain detailed data about an encounter.
You don't need to explicitly know the mechanisms to respond thoughtfully.
"Yet this process could continue on and on until it is both difficult to reverse engineer and transparent enough to players to be understandable and enjoyable.
All the while adding in new mechanics, grounding feedback, immersion, so on and so forth.
Even resulting in a game that counters bots and braindeadness, while also rewarding deep and grounded intuition, which would make insights and excellence more impressive. . ."
"Talking about the genre as a whole and a small part of it is plenty appropriate in its scope and subject.
All I've strung together is a somewhat cohesive design choice that may feature in an MMORPG, that would fit in Ashes of Creation while shitting on many problems the genre, game, and players would otherwise face.
Of course, it would also be more immersive and open up gameplay opportunities.
Do you think it's good as part of the genre or not.
Do you think it's good as part of the game's direction or not."
"You refuse to engage with a question that would reveal your general opinion on the matter. You will not answer even for the sake of the discussion, for communication and understanding.
Would you like me to understand? Answer the question. "
"Moreover a game that can be 'solved' with log reading after the fact is not dynamic; it is static. Do you want static content?
Are you hoping for static content?
Are you hoping for static content?
Are you hoping to beat static content with trackers?
Are you hoping trackers will be giving you feedback mid-fight as to their damage and effect?
All I've strung together is a somewhat cohesive design choice that may feature in an MMORPG, that would fit in Ashes of Creation while shitting on many problems the genre, game, and players would otherwise face.
Of course, it would also be more immersive and open up gameplay opportunities.
Do you think it's good as part of the genre or not.
Do you think it's good as part of the game's direction or not."
Ok, so its clear you are not at all interested in actual discussion, so blatant put-down it is instead.
Your idea is shit. Objectively shit.
The reason it is shit is because it can literally be summed up by saying "let's remove all aspects of an MMO that enables players to play that MMO in any way other than the way I wish to play it, forcing people to play said MMO my way."
If this feedback is difficult to reduce to numerical formulas and trackers can't be used due to both the difficulty of reducing the game in such a way, machine recognition hostilities, limited client information, and the variability to "mobs", the player will have to focus on alternatives to overcoming challenges
That is you outright saying "remove these parts of the game, so that players only have MY WAY left to play". You dont use the words "the player will have to" in a situation where you are not forcing things.
Now, if we contrast that to what I am saying, which can basically be summed up as " if you want to play the game by feel or intuition, the game should allow for that. If you want to play the game by knowledge and logic, the game should allow for that, if you want to play the game via some combination of the two, the game should allow for that".
Don't believe me that this is what I am saying? Here is a post from me in relation to a question from Intrepid in relation to floating damage feedback in combat...
As long as there is a turnoff option Ill be happy.
So, you mean to say you like a minimalistic UI, correct?
IMO, literally every UI element in the game should have the ability to be turned off, turned on, or have appropriate contexts to automatically turn on, as well as the option to alter the opacity based on contexts.
An example would be hot bars. I want the ability to turn each of them off or on individually, but with all of them turning on if I am in combat.
I want my buffs window to show when I have a new buff applied, or when an existing buff is about to expire, but also the ability to mouse over where that window is to show it for as long as it is mouse over.
I want the ability to turn off character portraits in the group window, leaving only names, health and mana of group members showing. If I am not a tank or healer, I dont even need that information and so would want the ability to have the whole group widen translucent unless mouse over (or a group member leaves or joins, I guess). I should also have the ability to set a condition where right clicking on a character in the group window casts a specific spell on them (a buff, heal, what ever I decide).
Basically, there is no customization that players or developers could think of that shouldnt be implemented, there just needs to be options to both save a full UI setring, and the ability to reset everything back to default.
What I am saying here is that if you want to play the game with absolutely no feedback at all, you should be able to do so. You should be able to turn off all of that information, and the game should still be playable for you. While I do not specifically talk about in combat feedback, the thread is literally only about that and so the entire post is actually about it.
This is literally me saying that you should be able to play Ashes the way you want to play Ashes - Intrepid have literally no reason at all to stop you, and it wouldn't be all that hard for them to make this a reality.
An MMORPG is at it's best when it attracts the most varied people. You should be able to play the game the way you want to play the game.
But so should I.
While you should be able to turn all of that combat feedback off, I should be able to turn it back on. You don't enjoy numbers, that's great, have at it.
However, don't go telling me that I also don't enjoy numbers - as you have tried to say many times in this thread by outright asserting that numbers are not fun.
So do you want combat feedback part of the HUDless game, integrated into the mechanics and basic visual and audio feedback of the game. . . or not?
As I literally just said in the above post, every player should be able to decide that for them self.
Why am i taking time to answer your questions when you both refuse to answer anyone else's, and dont even read the fucking answers when we give them to you?
Anyway, until AoC comes out we will see other attempts too, like the Throne and Liberty mmo. Maybe they have new ideas about this. Or maybe they delayed the release because they follow this thread and we found no solution yet
Why would Throne and Liberty bother to make Trackers unavailable though?
For a game to do this, they would have to think it matters for some reason. Since that's not actually an obvious conclusion to everyone (particularly not Korean MMO creators), they might just... not care at all about parser/tracker options.
These rooms would also solve the problem when owning intelligent androids sometime in 100 years will be a common thing... until genetically modified players will be created.
then possibly an AI will not be allowed to play MMOs either
But playing against an AI can be fun if that is trying to offer fun.
But when is something an "AI" vs a very clever algorithm?
Can a game be complex enough to require a tracker to become very smart?
Can be cases where you as a game developer can say somebody used a very smart tracker vs an average one to beat your designed raid?
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
Comments
Yes, we know.
First, combat trackers are not inherently add ons. Add ons are actually fairly easy to prevent.
While Steven has said they won't "allow" trackers, that doesn't mean they can make an actual rule about it. I am able to run any stand alone applications on my computer that I like, and if it does not interact with Intrepids software, they have no say at all in it.
Literally none at all.
In fact, if they even look at what applications we are all running at the same time as we run the game client, that by itself will go against privacy laws in a number of jurisdictions - and you can't sign away basic rights that are granted to you by law.
Now, when you contrast this to the notion that a combat tracker in Ashes can be run while the games client isn't even running - or indeed can be run on a totally different computer - it starts to become obvious how foolish it would be to even take a step down this road.
what if the dps tracker is not built as an addon, but as a completely separate third-party software that can be run from your phone?
― Plato
This is what I wanted to post too, but I chosen to answer differently when considering the 30 hour effort to create a 3rd party tracker.
Such common databases can be very valuable and I think would happen anyway, with or without an in-game tracker. Then the 3rd party tracker would become superior to the in-game one and players would use those one instead the in-game one.
Post are there it doesn't matter how much you try to deny it lmao. I find its funny you are trying to attempt to back track now. Your post were read and you triple downed on them is the funny thing. Don't ask me to got through hundreds of pages because you always have garbage takes.
Trackers don't add to anything unless yo mean talking about making the game easier and requiring less communication. Nor does any game need to be built around trackers and invisible mechanics you need to deal with, as far as I'm concerned that is a issue with older games and their lack of technology to add more difficulty. Such difficulty that can only come from action combat and not looking at math sheets.
It would take less time and effort than you have already spent replying to me asking you to quote them.
Again, trackers do not result in less communication being needed.
While an argument can be made that they make the game easier, they only do this if a developer doesn't take them in to account (directly or indirectly) when developing content for the game.
Those "old games" you talk about were able to create content so difficult that even with trackers, players couldn't kill it for a full year, and needed a level cap increase. Kids these days would cry at the difficulty of much of the content of those "old games" that you are deriding here, the same "old games" that were being referred to when Steven said "Make MMO's Great Again".
Again, you are just showing your ignorance of all things MMO here - again. You have a bias towards action combat that is borne out of your preference for fighting games, and have no understanding of the depth capable with a tab target system.
Naa I'm not looking through a ton of post to find them, ill just remember how many crappy takes you have.
Very persuasive.
It's not likely that Mag prefers Action Combat because of fighting games. In my experience, more serious fighting game players prefer something closer to Tab or Hybrid. He probably prefers it as a result of his personality and personal preferences, moreso than any fighting game parallel.
Combat feedback in general isn't relevant even though it determines the relevancy, possibility, and impact of combat trackers?
As well as the enjoyment of a game?
It's not the right place for it, in a free forum and 180 page thread?
It is funny how this is always your go to in talking shit about peoples experience that don't agree with you. When you know literally nothing about them.
Like you are proving again and again how hypocritical you are talking about it being a school kid insult yet you can't stop going back to this yourself.
I understand TAB target completely well and the lack of depth from the combat front of it compared to what action games do. And the growth to the genre it have been getting over the MANY YEARS taking from action elements.
It really can't trust you on you playing other mmorpgs besides EQ because it seems like you have not or you would understand what I'm talking about. This has nothing to do with fighting games, you are simply talking out of your ass because as I've before you don't care what people think just what you want. Leading you to create weird assumptions on people you don't know or care to understand.
Depth is only added onto more when you include more action combat and you have all the stat and skill traits of tab because that doesn't go away. You are only adding more levels on to it.
Well the reality is that if someone wants to improve they have to put themselves in a situation that allows it. Using any and all tools available definitely helps. If they want to stagnate that is their choice and unfortunately that does sometimes impact more than just themselves, which in this case would be however many people are doing dungeons/raids etc. They can be excluded which in all honestly if someone was having a problem in their role and not willing to improve based on feedback or such then I would remove them. It's about the many not that one person.
But this is best case and is not always used this way due to every person being different.
Sure, i used tracker more or less depending on games, and mainly how willingly i was to master my character to the top (i did not raid lead a lot in "top end" so the tracker to help to understand what happened is not a case that was a real deal for me)
and used it a lot when people asked me "how to get better" ... learning them how to understand the game, to ensure them to not need me patch after patch (while guide make you dependant on guides, imo)
The problem is : what happen when player that want enjoy, try be "simply good" goes in a party where people try to perform ? he gets kick. Or FFXIV way : silence, or wow way "stfu noob L2P" (could also be the social people but... lets see worst cases).
The idea of guild perk tracker avoid situation when people with mindset A fall with team with mindset B.
Both are playing the game the good way, their own good way, and both are importatn for the game health, but due to different mindset, the risk of toxicity is real. Lets get it clear and allow people to have fast as many way to find the guild that fit their taste as possible. And sure, if this topic proves one thing : tracker is a big point to chose your guildmate !
the way the game is currently following is FFXIV one : not allowed, but used a lot, to a point a site allow people to upload it... and make people who could want to not be "tracked" to have their data on it... Kick are silent because what is banned is not tracker use, but kicking while expressing "too low DPS" (so... simply toxic speak) and people angry to get kicked without reason, or having to keep a bad DPS in "farming party" for the fear to be reported and banned. Not a sane environment... prefer when people simply chose and know the consequences of their choices
I mean, anyone that has played WoW over time and seen the games combat gain and lose massive amounts of depth at various times would just sit there shaking their head at this comment.
Combat feedback that players get - as in, that is designed for players to easily understand during combat - is not the same thing nor does it serve the same purpose as a combat tracker. Combat feedback is usually only a subset of the data a combat tracker uses, because players simply cant absorb enough data fast enough for developers to present all of it to players.
This is indeed a free forum, and you are free to post what ever you want where ever you want it, within reason. You are also free to not post anything you dont want to post.
The thing is, so am I.
As I have said, *I* am not answering that question in this thread.
Is that a problem?
Your typical disgusting behavior doesn't surprise me you will manipulate anything any chance you get.
Unless you want to talk about certain mechanics that have changed so they can be discussed in what I think based on what I AM saying do not try to bring up blanket statements.
Are we talking about combat feedback now?
You're talking about combat feedback and giving your opinion?
""Yet this process could continue on and on until it is both difficult to reverse engineer and transparent enough to players to be understandable and enjoyable.
All the while adding in new mechanics, grounding feedback, immersion, so on and so forth.
Even resulting in a game that counters bots and braindeadness, while also rewarding deep and grounded intuition, which would make insights and excellence more impressive. . .
Fin "
Problem?
Moreover a game that can be 'solved' with log reading after the fact is not dynamic; it is static. Do you want static content?
Are you hoping for static content?
Are you hoping for static content?
Are you hoping to beat static content with trackers?
Are you hoping trackers will be giving you feedback mid-fight as to their damage and effect?
Are you hoping for full logs and full tracking?
"Doesn't serve the same function"
The problem is that you insist players shouldn't have to overcome obstacles to information acquisition in-game because you want WoW raids and omniscience.
"players simply cant absorb enough data fast enough for developers to present all of it to players."
Feedback that builds on a person's intuitions, player intuition, by being 'based in reality' in a way that is consistent with 'real reality' and the 'game's reality' in an intertwined way makes Feedback easier to absorb and process.
Just as a CoD Player learns to extract information from the screen and notice the camoflouged pixels of a person in the bush, any MMO player can pick up on information presented by the game. But numbers are dumb and not fun.
If this feedback is difficult to reduce to numerical formulas and trackers can't be used due to both the difficulty of reducing the game in such a way, machine recognition hostilities, limited client information, and the variability to "mobs", the player will have to focus on alternatives to overcoming challenges rather than "lose then look through the logs then metagame harder" such as by using their INTELLIGENCE and RESOURCEFULNESS, as well as SKILL and KNOWLEDGE beyond EXPLOITS. Perhaps yall should just try again? git gud?
Or maybe just invite more people next time; maybe ask someone who can lead the group? Go check out the marketplace in-game? Go elsewhere?
Trackers aren't a golden goose of fun. Except to you, and those you surround yourself with that are just like you.
There are people with more than double the data processing as you.
Much of it is skill based, familiarity, intuition. Much of it is a difference in attributes; they just process things quicker. They should be rewarded for that merit OVER you; rather than you. You excluded. Not you.
The 'data' available shouldn't be numbers; it should be intertwined with what is visible on-screen, audio, impact, response, reaction, behavior, cause & effect. It should intertwine with Sense, Intuition, Reason, Judgement and Knowledge for a cohesively immersive game that sets up, enables, promotes, establishes and generates f U n
Problem?
As to your comment that I insist players shouldn't have to overcome obstacles to gain information - I never said that.
Before I go further, explain to me exactly how a guild is able to get detailed information about an encounter without a combat tracker.
The rest of.my response to the a ove post is awaiting your answer to this question.
What was in the original thread?
The only important matter here is whether said guild overcomes the encounter; however the difficulty is determined is multiplicit.
Information acquisition and processing can be rewarded without numerical feedback and trackers.
Answer the questions.
This is how discussion works.
I'll ask it again - other than a combat tracker, how are players expected to obtain detailed data about an encounter.
Edit to add; you only get to decide what is important to you, not what is important to everyone. I am asking you a direct question looking for more information from you so that I can answer your question that you asked me. That question may not be important to you, but it is required for me to be able to answer your question.
Since you do not know what the answer I am going to give to your question is, you are in no position at all to say whether the question I asked is important or not.
Look into your trash and fall asleep head first.
You don't need to explicitly know the mechanisms to respond thoughtfully.
"Yet this process could continue on and on until it is both difficult to reverse engineer and transparent enough to players to be understandable and enjoyable.
All the while adding in new mechanics, grounding feedback, immersion, so on and so forth.
Even resulting in a game that counters bots and braindeadness, while also rewarding deep and grounded intuition, which would make insights and excellence more impressive. . ."
"Talking about the genre as a whole and a small part of it is plenty appropriate in its scope and subject.
All I've strung together is a somewhat cohesive design choice that may feature in an MMORPG, that would fit in Ashes of Creation while shitting on many problems the genre, game, and players would otherwise face.
Of course, it would also be more immersive and open up gameplay opportunities.
Do you think it's good as part of the genre or not.
Do you think it's good as part of the game's direction or not."
"You refuse to engage with a question that would reveal your general opinion on the matter. You will not answer even for the sake of the discussion, for communication and understanding.
Would you like me to understand? Answer the question. "
"Moreover a game that can be 'solved' with log reading after the fact is not dynamic; it is static. Do you want static content?
Are you hoping for static content?
Are you hoping for static content?
Are you hoping to beat static content with trackers?
Are you hoping trackers will be giving you feedback mid-fight as to their damage and effect?
Are you hoping for full logs and full tracking? "
Ok, so its clear you are not at all interested in actual discussion, so blatant put-down it is instead.
Your idea is shit. Objectively shit.
The reason it is shit is because it can literally be summed up by saying "let's remove all aspects of an MMO that enables players to play that MMO in any way other than the way I wish to play it, forcing people to play said MMO my way."
Dont believe me that this is what you are saying? That is you outright saying "remove these parts of the game, so that players only have MY WAY left to play". You dont use the words "the player will have to" in a situation where you are not forcing things.
Now, if we contrast that to what I am saying, which can basically be summed up as " if you want to play the game by feel or intuition, the game should allow for that. If you want to play the game by knowledge and logic, the game should allow for that, if you want to play the game via some combination of the two, the game should allow for that".
Don't believe me that this is what I am saying? Here is a post from me in relation to a question from Intrepid in relation to floating damage feedback in combat... What I am saying here is that if you want to play the game with absolutely no feedback at all, you should be able to do so. You should be able to turn off all of that information, and the game should still be playable for you. While I do not specifically talk about in combat feedback, the thread is literally only about that and so the entire post is actually about it.
This is literally me saying that you should be able to play Ashes the way you want to play Ashes - Intrepid have literally no reason at all to stop you, and it wouldn't be all that hard for them to make this a reality.
An MMORPG is at it's best when it attracts the most varied people. You should be able to play the game the way you want to play the game.
But so should I.
While you should be able to turn all of that combat feedback off, I should be able to turn it back on. You don't enjoy numbers, that's great, have at it.
However, don't go telling me that I also don't enjoy numbers - as you have tried to say many times in this thread by outright asserting that numbers are not fun. So again, I am saying that both you and I should be able to play Ashes the way we each want to play Ashes.
You are saying that both you and I should be able to play Ashes only the way you want to play Ashes.
This is why your idea is shit.
Do you have any more questions you would like me to answer?
So do you want combat feedback part of the HUDless game, integrated into the mechanics and basic visual and audio feedback of the game. . . or not?
And do you want perks for in-game characters to have unique information gathering advantages such as 'Inspect' or not?
As I literally just said in the above post, every player should be able to decide that for them self.
Why am i taking time to answer your questions when you both refuse to answer anyone else's, and dont even read the fucking answers when we give them to you?
edit: Are you OK with this even if it confers an advantage OVER those using a tracker?
At this point, I think you may be the first person on any forum I have ever reported for trolling. I've answered this question twice in two posts.
If you do not like or understand my answer, ask for clarification.
I'm asking about the HUDless combat feedback.
Yes or no.
If people can harm (or take fun away) using AI from other people
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2022/10/biden-proposes-new-bill-of-rights-to-protect-americans-from-ai-snooping/
then possibly an AI will not be allowed to play MMOs either
But playing against an AI can be fun if that is trying to offer fun.
But when is something an "AI" vs a very clever algorithm?
Can a game be complex enough to require a tracker to become very smart?
Can be cases where you as a game developer can say somebody used a very smart tracker vs an average one to beat your designed raid?