Mortal Online 2 is a FFA open-world action slug fest. If you want skill-based archery it’s there, but you have to be quite good to survive.
Edit - note that this is not where Ashes is going.
I guess it's because the reality they implement into game make bow useless while facing shield block, and bow lack player agency to make more trick shots.
Mortal Online 2 is a FFA open-world action slug fest. If you want skill-based archery it’s there, but you have to be quite good to survive.
Edit - note that this is not where Ashes is going.
I guess it's because the reality they implement into game make bow useless while facing shield block, and bow lack player agency to make more trick shots.
Not sure if that’s your experience. Certainly wasn’t mine.
The issue with archery for me was that you either needed to set a perfect ambush on foot and be sneaky AF. Or you needed to balance your archery skill/power with riding when melee inevitably closed distance on you with a two-hander, heavy armor, and mounted.
Good game until their server performance made it unplayable, but ranged was a fun challenge.
Well, I don't like these ideas because it's not really things or tricks most players able to manage to do in most of fights, so to me that level of projectile behave and gravity game design is meaningless and not fun, yeah maybe for 5~10% will consider it's fun but if a game mainly serve the most top 10~20% skillful players first that game can easily become a shit to be honest if I may.
A simple example, if you want to able to shoot arrows pass through castle/city wall etc in sieges or city wars simply make ranger's ultimate skill or siege skill able to shoot that far as a ground target AOE skill.
I just don't understand why people so hunger to make games so difficult and so hard to enter.
And few more things, that bow length don't really make draw time different mainly the draw feeling and the torque changing while drawing back, but the bow type and design and the brace height and the safe max draw length and how much over draw you want will effect the draw time when compare short medium long bows, and most long bow user don't draw over 29 inches(I assume when you guys say long bow means British long bow, if not long bow most have 30~34 max draw, but it's doesn't means short and medium bow can't shot far than long bow.) as I know because not every bow was designed to like the further you draw back the more power get from the bow, and average archer able to hit the target in 50 meters at least I can and I won't consider I am a good archer, last thing archer can shoot while running even it's a long bow.
I never said it was supposed to be something everyone can do. It's supposed to be something that skilled players can do. I'm talking about all basic range action mode attacks can use projectile motion/arcs. Since they said it's a projectile-based system, they can make projectile motion/arc. The arc doesn't have to be a visible indicator/visual line in-game. Make it so only good players can capitalize on it while adding a limit to how far arrows and other projectiles can go before hitting the ground. Longbows(like the kind that was shown in the range video) should have a longer draw time if you want a full draw. My idea is longbows will have a larger range than short bows. However, when you draw the bow by pressing the LMB, the longer you hold it the farther your arrow goes. Of course, there will be a max limit to how far your arrows can go. While the trade-off for a fully drawn longbow is that your character gets rooted to the ground. So you can still click the LMB button for a fast short-range draw but for every second you hold it your character gets a slow effect up to the point the longbow is fully drawn and the character is rooted and can't move until that shot is fired. This will also add a skill shot for archers who want to be really good and test their shots. This also means long bows become valuable and add a chase for a good longbow drop or for crafters to build. Short bows will also be useful because they will have a faster fire rate than longbows. Tab players can utilize short bows to get more shots fired at action combat players who will need a longer draw time to pull off such a skill shot. The risk/reward for short bows would be short range for a higher rate of fire than longbows. The risk/reward for longbows will be longer draw time for a larger range and a higher projectile motion/arc than the short bows. I guess short bow users can use the projectile motion/arc to do some skill shots just not at the same rand as longbows.
I guess what you saying is like player aiming higher instead of point at the target directly in order to gain more effective shoot range to able to hit a target is out of range, if I understand you wrong please correct me.
Well, I wrote a post in the feedback thread, I suggested they can make 3 different class bow type, short and medium and long, the short bow we saw in update still the same class we saw in update video which bow length is bow length under 50 inches and safe max draw length under 29 inches(but I don't like people always misunderstand that bow length is heavily relevant to effective shoot range, means I don't like the design make short bow range shorter than other bow type.), medium class include medium size bow which means bow length around 50-60 inches and long bow we saw in update video which bow length is around 65~75 inches then both simplified to same safe max draw length range at around 30~34 inches, long class is Japanese bow yumi that bow length around 83~96 inches and draw length is around 31 to over 41 inches and max safe draw length is depends on the materials and design of the bow but as I know the most are over 34 inches, and the reason I hope they add yumi is when I saw the snipe skill is shoot with one knee down and yumi is the bow I knew was design to able to shoot with one knee down and don't need to worry about hurt the bow and fit Ren’kai’s part of asia culture taste, and I'd like to see for example short and medium bow using snipe will be standing and only yumi able to be one knee down and have further benefit such as the ranged attack from opponent will have more chance to miss or less chance to crit while using snipe with yumi because the target is smaller, it create kind of synergies between weapon skills and archetype skills to further develop ranged weapon environment and diversity.(And I am consider about something about sacrifice the bow endurance to over draw the bow to gain more damage or more crit chance etc, but I don't know I think it can be fun.)
In my mind it will be like short bow focus on mobility, medium bow start to have charge mechanic to have more play style than short bow, long bow yumi is more like a sniper play style with able to sacrifice more mobility to have further charge power and to max out damage and able to take out the opponent with minimum shots like a sniper play style.
So, I don't like the way bring too much action element or say not for average player skill level elements in MMORPG becuase it's a MMORPG, MMORPG should be character build based instead of skill level based, the day I start follow Ashes of Creation and I found out that Intrepid once said the design about risk vs reward is everywhere in Ashes of Creation include tab vs action means action mode less effect by RNG and I think it's a very very bad idea, if the idea stay at action oriented skills are less effect by RNG than target oriented skills I will happy to accept it, but it's not, and it's a very bad idea to have while making a game that owner keep saying it's not for everyone because that idea is heavily and deeply divide players by skill level and I don't really know any MMORPG or online game can live well and happy and make money to further develop next expansion and don't drop large player base in 1 years with bad idea like that will heavily divide players by skill level, I just don't know how MMORPG can survive without average or say not skillful player base.
Yes, you got the point I was trying to make. However, I don't know why we can't have both skill base action mechanics that rely on people's ability to use basic weapons and regular MMORPG class skills ability. If someone can use a bows basic attack to make a skill shot there is nothing wrong with that and it doesn't take away class ability skills. It also doesn't mean that the game will automatically turn into a basic weapon attack game. It just adds another level of depth to the combat.
Maybe the reason I able to come up with are not things you will care, in my experience this level of design will highly divide players to who can do the trick shot with basic weapon attack consistently that developers aim for imply in game and who can't, it can or say mostly will become you are allowed by people play with you to use the weapon by able to do the tricks, if you can't do the tricks and they are not your friends in the end they won't play with you or you stop use that weapon, which means people will take the trick shot as a baseline without forgiveness unconsciously in most of situations.
I not saying that tricks shouldn't exist, what I trying to say is that people usually misunderstand things and the trick shot you mentioned is build in basic attack and it's not a trick developed by players through playing experience or experiment, it's consciously designed by developers in that basic level foundation and it can or say will misguide players that is the baseline to tell you are average or unskillful, for example:
https://youtu.be/oWNt_8xcOZw?t=858
three ticks in one 16 seconds fight, consider the era we don't really know the shit about how skills work, none of these will be consider as a baseline in that time, but in this day I won't consider the back jump trick is the baseline to tell a player is average or unskillful at least, this is what I trying to say.
Yes but that's the point. Not everyone should be able to successfully do the trick, especially not without practice. That's what a skill ceiling is. A majority of good players are good because they practice. They didn't just start playing the game and were godly at it. That's why there are training games on steam like kovaak which helps with aim. Also, keep in mind that class skills will still do more damage than basic ranged weapon attacks. This is no different than good players getting good gears and weapons from open-world bosses and dungeons/raids because they are good at the game.
But it shouldn't be designed by developer on purpose at that level, like in GW2 you can put weapon back to sheath to cancel skills so you don't have to waste skill/dodge on skill cancelling or cancel the animation to get a little bit more advantage dps I don't know it's intentional or not but they change a little bit about the trick so I guess it was not what they plan to do but they didn't remove it because players don't want they to remove it and the trick is not a trick difficult to do but if you can time every single time you can get dome advantage or comeback but it's not something that huge to let you can crush your opponent or hardly win, but the trick shot you mentioned is, the trick shot is just like thief's sword 2 skill was suppose to teleport to target when press once then teleport back to where you were when press it again in few seconds, but some players found out that sword 2 skill can infinity teleport forwards the target if they can manage to the trick every time so in a period of time you can see quite a lot thief doing that to killing and trolling people and then Anet fixed it because it's not how it should be and it's broken, the trick shot you mentioned is not at that broken level but it's not a good design at least to me, it's only create illusion and false cognition(I don't know the words I choose are right but it's what my translator told me).
The difference between what I want and that is its initial and there's no trick behind it. It will all be based on the type of bo and how far their range is. There is no trick you can use to accurately shoot your opponents that are hiding behind cover or for you to shoot them while you are behind cover. It will just come down to raw skills and practice. I doubt the soft lock aim assist/homing that players get will make a difference if you didn't lock on to a target but shot up in the sky at an angle where the arrow will fall back down and hit them. It will rely purely on skills for the arrow or any other range projectile to hit its target from such an angle.
Well, maybe it's because my examples are bad, what I want to say is that kind of skill is base on something too basic(I can't find the right word I just use basic instead) I really don't think it's good or say healthy, what you want will have to bring more reality into game world but like I said before bow and arrow and archery are not like what you think, and design game base on half way realistic and deformed concept/knowledge is not good, that I think it’s need base on the reality to make a good game and balance between fun and real because players need the realistic aspect to feel things look right but too real will kill the fun, so I always try to give my opinions to devs and others base on my experience and knowledge in real life and try my best to transform what's too real and not fun to be fun but still can feel it's real.
Are you saying gravity/projectile motion isn't based on reality? It's basic enough for every class to be able to use it. What you don't want are special technics that are only accessible in one class. For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
No, not saying that.
I'm saying the reality you want bring into game doesn't help game to be fun, like I said I do archery and I can tell you I don't shoot target behind object like you mentioned, if I want to kill a guy behind a wall I simply shoot bunch of trick arrows contents oil etc then a fire arrow, I don't even want to blind guess where is he, and if the guy is behind a pillar and I can totally predict his position and distance I able to shoot turning arrows with poison on arrowheads to kill him, and all these are faster way to do what you want to do but maybe not the way you want.
update:
About
For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
this we call it class identity in MMORPGs, anyone can use any weapon doesn't mean you will able to reach the max potential of the weapon with your class for example a warrior use a wand, do you think it's reasonable that a warrior can max out the potential of wand?
If it's that what I said make you misunderstand I'm sorry, English is not my native language.
Mortal Online 2 is a FFA open-world action slug fest. If you want skill-based archery it’s there, but you have to be quite good to survive.
Edit - note that this is not where Ashes is going.
I guess it's because the reality they implement into game make bow useless while facing shield block, and bow lack player agency to make more trick shots.
Not sure if that’s your experience. Certainly wasn’t mine.
The issue with archery for me was that you either needed to set a perfect ambush on foot and be sneaky AF. Or you needed to balance your archery skill/power with riding when melee inevitably closed distance on you with a two-hander, heavy armor, and mounted.
Good game until their server performance made it unplayable, but ranged was a fun challenge.
I never played it before but I watched some videos just now, I won't use bow and arrows in MO2, it's against what I know about archery. XD
But the sword fight remind me a game called Chivalry 2(?) I don't play game like that but it's fun to watch.
I feel like gravity having an affect on projectiles in a fantasy MMO is just too out of place, im not trying to calculate bullet drop and windage to hit a headshot on someone 800 meters away. I just want to cast my ability and have it go to where im aiming ~50 feet away
The more unnecessary components you put in for the player to deal with the more annoying and aggravating interacting with that system will be. Especially in combat, and even more so in PvP, and one of the big selling points is the massive Siege system that will be in place eventually.
Well, I don't like these ideas because it's not really things or tricks most players able to manage to do in most of fights, so to me that level of projectile behave and gravity game design is meaningless and not fun, yeah maybe for 5~10% will consider it's fun but if a game mainly serve the most top 10~20% skillful players first that game can easily become a shit to be honest if I may.
A simple example, if you want to able to shoot arrows pass through castle/city wall etc in sieges or city wars simply make ranger's ultimate skill or siege skill able to shoot that far as a ground target AOE skill.
I just don't understand why people so hunger to make games so difficult and so hard to enter.
And few more things, that bow length don't really make draw time different mainly the draw feeling and the torque changing while drawing back, but the bow type and design and the brace height and the safe max draw length and how much over draw you want will effect the draw time when compare short medium long bows, and most long bow user don't draw over 29 inches(I assume when you guys say long bow means British long bow, if not long bow most have 30~34 max draw, but it's doesn't means short and medium bow can't shot far than long bow.) as I know because not every bow was designed to like the further you draw back the more power get from the bow, and average archer able to hit the target in 50 meters at least I can and I won't consider I am a good archer, last thing archer can shoot while running even it's a long bow.
I never said it was supposed to be something everyone can do. It's supposed to be something that skilled players can do. I'm talking about all basic range action mode attacks can use projectile motion/arcs. Since they said it's a projectile-based system, they can make projectile motion/arc. The arc doesn't have to be a visible indicator/visual line in-game. Make it so only good players can capitalize on it while adding a limit to how far arrows and other projectiles can go before hitting the ground. Longbows(like the kind that was shown in the range video) should have a longer draw time if you want a full draw. My idea is longbows will have a larger range than short bows. However, when you draw the bow by pressing the LMB, the longer you hold it the farther your arrow goes. Of course, there will be a max limit to how far your arrows can go. While the trade-off for a fully drawn longbow is that your character gets rooted to the ground. So you can still click the LMB button for a fast short-range draw but for every second you hold it your character gets a slow effect up to the point the longbow is fully drawn and the character is rooted and can't move until that shot is fired. This will also add a skill shot for archers who want to be really good and test their shots. This also means long bows become valuable and add a chase for a good longbow drop or for crafters to build. Short bows will also be useful because they will have a faster fire rate than longbows. Tab players can utilize short bows to get more shots fired at action combat players who will need a longer draw time to pull off such a skill shot. The risk/reward for short bows would be short range for a higher rate of fire than longbows. The risk/reward for longbows will be longer draw time for a larger range and a higher projectile motion/arc than the short bows. I guess short bow users can use the projectile motion/arc to do some skill shots just not at the same rand as longbows.
I guess what you saying is like player aiming higher instead of point at the target directly in order to gain more effective shoot range to able to hit a target is out of range, if I understand you wrong please correct me.
Well, I wrote a post in the feedback thread, I suggested they can make 3 different class bow type, short and medium and long, the short bow we saw in update still the same class we saw in update video which bow length is bow length under 50 inches and safe max draw length under 29 inches(but I don't like people always misunderstand that bow length is heavily relevant to effective shoot range, means I don't like the design make short bow range shorter than other bow type.), medium class include medium size bow which means bow length around 50-60 inches and long bow we saw in update video which bow length is around 65~75 inches then both simplified to same safe max draw length range at around 30~34 inches, long class is Japanese bow yumi that bow length around 83~96 inches and draw length is around 31 to over 41 inches and max safe draw length is depends on the materials and design of the bow but as I know the most are over 34 inches, and the reason I hope they add yumi is when I saw the snipe skill is shoot with one knee down and yumi is the bow I knew was design to able to shoot with one knee down and don't need to worry about hurt the bow and fit Ren’kai’s part of asia culture taste, and I'd like to see for example short and medium bow using snipe will be standing and only yumi able to be one knee down and have further benefit such as the ranged attack from opponent will have more chance to miss or less chance to crit while using snipe with yumi because the target is smaller, it create kind of synergies between weapon skills and archetype skills to further develop ranged weapon environment and diversity.(And I am consider about something about sacrifice the bow endurance to over draw the bow to gain more damage or more crit chance etc, but I don't know I think it can be fun.)
In my mind it will be like short bow focus on mobility, medium bow start to have charge mechanic to have more play style than short bow, long bow yumi is more like a sniper play style with able to sacrifice more mobility to have further charge power and to max out damage and able to take out the opponent with minimum shots like a sniper play style.
So, I don't like the way bring too much action element or say not for average player skill level elements in MMORPG becuase it's a MMORPG, MMORPG should be character build based instead of skill level based, the day I start follow Ashes of Creation and I found out that Intrepid once said the design about risk vs reward is everywhere in Ashes of Creation include tab vs action means action mode less effect by RNG and I think it's a very very bad idea, if the idea stay at action oriented skills are less effect by RNG than target oriented skills I will happy to accept it, but it's not, and it's a very bad idea to have while making a game that owner keep saying it's not for everyone because that idea is heavily and deeply divide players by skill level and I don't really know any MMORPG or online game can live well and happy and make money to further develop next expansion and don't drop large player base in 1 years with bad idea like that will heavily divide players by skill level, I just don't know how MMORPG can survive without average or say not skillful player base.
Yes, you got the point I was trying to make. However, I don't know why we can't have both skill base action mechanics that rely on people's ability to use basic weapons and regular MMORPG class skills ability. If someone can use a bows basic attack to make a skill shot there is nothing wrong with that and it doesn't take away class ability skills. It also doesn't mean that the game will automatically turn into a basic weapon attack game. It just adds another level of depth to the combat.
Maybe the reason I able to come up with are not things you will care, in my experience this level of design will highly divide players to who can do the trick shot with basic weapon attack consistently that developers aim for imply in game and who can't, it can or say mostly will become you are allowed by people play with you to use the weapon by able to do the tricks, if you can't do the tricks and they are not your friends in the end they won't play with you or you stop use that weapon, which means people will take the trick shot as a baseline without forgiveness unconsciously in most of situations.
I not saying that tricks shouldn't exist, what I trying to say is that people usually misunderstand things and the trick shot you mentioned is build in basic attack and it's not a trick developed by players through playing experience or experiment, it's consciously designed by developers in that basic level foundation and it can or say will misguide players that is the baseline to tell you are average or unskillful, for example:
https://youtu.be/oWNt_8xcOZw?t=858
three ticks in one 16 seconds fight, consider the era we don't really know the shit about how skills work, none of these will be consider as a baseline in that time, but in this day I won't consider the back jump trick is the baseline to tell a player is average or unskillful at least, this is what I trying to say.
Yes but that's the point. Not everyone should be able to successfully do the trick, especially not without practice. That's what a skill ceiling is. A majority of good players are good because they practice. They didn't just start playing the game and were godly at it. That's why there are training games on steam like kovaak which helps with aim. Also, keep in mind that class skills will still do more damage than basic ranged weapon attacks. This is no different than good players getting good gears and weapons from open-world bosses and dungeons/raids because they are good at the game.
But it shouldn't be designed by developer on purpose at that level, like in GW2 you can put weapon back to sheath to cancel skills so you don't have to waste skill/dodge on skill cancelling or cancel the animation to get a little bit more advantage dps I don't know it's intentional or not but they change a little bit about the trick so I guess it was not what they plan to do but they didn't remove it because players don't want they to remove it and the trick is not a trick difficult to do but if you can time every single time you can get dome advantage or comeback but it's not something that huge to let you can crush your opponent or hardly win, but the trick shot you mentioned is, the trick shot is just like thief's sword 2 skill was suppose to teleport to target when press once then teleport back to where you were when press it again in few seconds, but some players found out that sword 2 skill can infinity teleport forwards the target if they can manage to the trick every time so in a period of time you can see quite a lot thief doing that to killing and trolling people and then Anet fixed it because it's not how it should be and it's broken, the trick shot you mentioned is not at that broken level but it's not a good design at least to me, it's only create illusion and false cognition(I don't know the words I choose are right but it's what my translator told me).
The difference between what I want and that is its initial and there's no trick behind it. It will all be based on the type of bo and how far their range is. There is no trick you can use to accurately shoot your opponents that are hiding behind cover or for you to shoot them while you are behind cover. It will just come down to raw skills and practice. I doubt the soft lock aim assist/homing that players get will make a difference if you didn't lock on to a target but shot up in the sky at an angle where the arrow will fall back down and hit them. It will rely purely on skills for the arrow or any other range projectile to hit its target from such an angle.
Well, maybe it's because my examples are bad, what I want to say is that kind of skill is base on something too basic(I can't find the right word I just use basic instead) I really don't think it's good or say healthy, what you want will have to bring more reality into game world but like I said before bow and arrow and archery are not like what you think, and design game base on half way realistic and deformed concept/knowledge is not good, that I think it’s need base on the reality to make a good game and balance between fun and real because players need the realistic aspect to feel things look right but too real will kill the fun, so I always try to give my opinions to devs and others base on my experience and knowledge in real life and try my best to transform what's too real and not fun to be fun but still can feel it's real.
Are you saying gravity/projectile motion isn't based on reality? It's basic enough for every class to be able to use it. What you don't want are special technics that are only accessible in one class. For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
No, not saying that.
I'm saying the reality you want bring into game doesn't help game to be fun, like I said I do archery and I can tell you I don't shoot target behind object like you mentioned, if I want to kill a guy behind a wall I simply shoot bunch of trick arrows contents oil etc then a fire arrow, I don't even want to blind guess where is he, and if the guy is behind a pillar and I can totally predict his position and distance I able to shoot turning arrows with poison on arrowheads to kill him, and all these are faster way to do what you want to do but maybe not the way you want.
update:
About
For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
this we call it class identity in MMORPGs, anyone can use any weapon doesn't mean you will able to reach the max potential of the weapon with your class for example a warrior use a wand, do you think it's reasonable that a warrior can max out the potential of wand?
If it's that what I said make you misunderstand I'm sorry, English is not my native language.
ok, I see your point but how often are you in a position where you have to shoot a target behind cover because that target is actively shooting back at you or coming at you with the intention to kill?
What I can say is that I have had to shoot a target from behind cover in a game. It happens when you're facing someone who is slightly better than you. Sometimes facing them on a fair playing field puts you at a disadvantage because they are faster than you.
Well, I don't like these ideas because it's not really things or tricks most players able to manage to do in most of fights, so to me that level of projectile behave and gravity game design is meaningless and not fun, yeah maybe for 5~10% will consider it's fun but if a game mainly serve the most top 10~20% skillful players first that game can easily become a shit to be honest if I may.
A simple example, if you want to able to shoot arrows pass through castle/city wall etc in sieges or city wars simply make ranger's ultimate skill or siege skill able to shoot that far as a ground target AOE skill.
I just don't understand why people so hunger to make games so difficult and so hard to enter.
And few more things, that bow length don't really make draw time different mainly the draw feeling and the torque changing while drawing back, but the bow type and design and the brace height and the safe max draw length and how much over draw you want will effect the draw time when compare short medium long bows, and most long bow user don't draw over 29 inches(I assume when you guys say long bow means British long bow, if not long bow most have 30~34 max draw, but it's doesn't means short and medium bow can't shot far than long bow.) as I know because not every bow was designed to like the further you draw back the more power get from the bow, and average archer able to hit the target in 50 meters at least I can and I won't consider I am a good archer, last thing archer can shoot while running even it's a long bow.
I never said it was supposed to be something everyone can do. It's supposed to be something that skilled players can do. I'm talking about all basic range action mode attacks can use projectile motion/arcs. Since they said it's a projectile-based system, they can make projectile motion/arc. The arc doesn't have to be a visible indicator/visual line in-game. Make it so only good players can capitalize on it while adding a limit to how far arrows and other projectiles can go before hitting the ground. Longbows(like the kind that was shown in the range video) should have a longer draw time if you want a full draw. My idea is longbows will have a larger range than short bows. However, when you draw the bow by pressing the LMB, the longer you hold it the farther your arrow goes. Of course, there will be a max limit to how far your arrows can go. While the trade-off for a fully drawn longbow is that your character gets rooted to the ground. So you can still click the LMB button for a fast short-range draw but for every second you hold it your character gets a slow effect up to the point the longbow is fully drawn and the character is rooted and can't move until that shot is fired. This will also add a skill shot for archers who want to be really good and test their shots. This also means long bows become valuable and add a chase for a good longbow drop or for crafters to build. Short bows will also be useful because they will have a faster fire rate than longbows. Tab players can utilize short bows to get more shots fired at action combat players who will need a longer draw time to pull off such a skill shot. The risk/reward for short bows would be short range for a higher rate of fire than longbows. The risk/reward for longbows will be longer draw time for a larger range and a higher projectile motion/arc than the short bows. I guess short bow users can use the projectile motion/arc to do some skill shots just not at the same rand as longbows.
I guess what you saying is like player aiming higher instead of point at the target directly in order to gain more effective shoot range to able to hit a target is out of range, if I understand you wrong please correct me.
Well, I wrote a post in the feedback thread, I suggested they can make 3 different class bow type, short and medium and long, the short bow we saw in update still the same class we saw in update video which bow length is bow length under 50 inches and safe max draw length under 29 inches(but I don't like people always misunderstand that bow length is heavily relevant to effective shoot range, means I don't like the design make short bow range shorter than other bow type.), medium class include medium size bow which means bow length around 50-60 inches and long bow we saw in update video which bow length is around 65~75 inches then both simplified to same safe max draw length range at around 30~34 inches, long class is Japanese bow yumi that bow length around 83~96 inches and draw length is around 31 to over 41 inches and max safe draw length is depends on the materials and design of the bow but as I know the most are over 34 inches, and the reason I hope they add yumi is when I saw the snipe skill is shoot with one knee down and yumi is the bow I knew was design to able to shoot with one knee down and don't need to worry about hurt the bow and fit Ren’kai’s part of asia culture taste, and I'd like to see for example short and medium bow using snipe will be standing and only yumi able to be one knee down and have further benefit such as the ranged attack from opponent will have more chance to miss or less chance to crit while using snipe with yumi because the target is smaller, it create kind of synergies between weapon skills and archetype skills to further develop ranged weapon environment and diversity.(And I am consider about something about sacrifice the bow endurance to over draw the bow to gain more damage or more crit chance etc, but I don't know I think it can be fun.)
In my mind it will be like short bow focus on mobility, medium bow start to have charge mechanic to have more play style than short bow, long bow yumi is more like a sniper play style with able to sacrifice more mobility to have further charge power and to max out damage and able to take out the opponent with minimum shots like a sniper play style.
So, I don't like the way bring too much action element or say not for average player skill level elements in MMORPG becuase it's a MMORPG, MMORPG should be character build based instead of skill level based, the day I start follow Ashes of Creation and I found out that Intrepid once said the design about risk vs reward is everywhere in Ashes of Creation include tab vs action means action mode less effect by RNG and I think it's a very very bad idea, if the idea stay at action oriented skills are less effect by RNG than target oriented skills I will happy to accept it, but it's not, and it's a very bad idea to have while making a game that owner keep saying it's not for everyone because that idea is heavily and deeply divide players by skill level and I don't really know any MMORPG or online game can live well and happy and make money to further develop next expansion and don't drop large player base in 1 years with bad idea like that will heavily divide players by skill level, I just don't know how MMORPG can survive without average or say not skillful player base.
Yes, you got the point I was trying to make. However, I don't know why we can't have both skill base action mechanics that rely on people's ability to use basic weapons and regular MMORPG class skills ability. If someone can use a bows basic attack to make a skill shot there is nothing wrong with that and it doesn't take away class ability skills. It also doesn't mean that the game will automatically turn into a basic weapon attack game. It just adds another level of depth to the combat.
Maybe the reason I able to come up with are not things you will care, in my experience this level of design will highly divide players to who can do the trick shot with basic weapon attack consistently that developers aim for imply in game and who can't, it can or say mostly will become you are allowed by people play with you to use the weapon by able to do the tricks, if you can't do the tricks and they are not your friends in the end they won't play with you or you stop use that weapon, which means people will take the trick shot as a baseline without forgiveness unconsciously in most of situations.
I not saying that tricks shouldn't exist, what I trying to say is that people usually misunderstand things and the trick shot you mentioned is build in basic attack and it's not a trick developed by players through playing experience or experiment, it's consciously designed by developers in that basic level foundation and it can or say will misguide players that is the baseline to tell you are average or unskillful, for example:
https://youtu.be/oWNt_8xcOZw?t=858
three ticks in one 16 seconds fight, consider the era we don't really know the shit about how skills work, none of these will be consider as a baseline in that time, but in this day I won't consider the back jump trick is the baseline to tell a player is average or unskillful at least, this is what I trying to say.
Yes but that's the point. Not everyone should be able to successfully do the trick, especially not without practice. That's what a skill ceiling is. A majority of good players are good because they practice. They didn't just start playing the game and were godly at it. That's why there are training games on steam like kovaak which helps with aim. Also, keep in mind that class skills will still do more damage than basic ranged weapon attacks. This is no different than good players getting good gears and weapons from open-world bosses and dungeons/raids because they are good at the game.
But it shouldn't be designed by developer on purpose at that level, like in GW2 you can put weapon back to sheath to cancel skills so you don't have to waste skill/dodge on skill cancelling or cancel the animation to get a little bit more advantage dps I don't know it's intentional or not but they change a little bit about the trick so I guess it was not what they plan to do but they didn't remove it because players don't want they to remove it and the trick is not a trick difficult to do but if you can time every single time you can get dome advantage or comeback but it's not something that huge to let you can crush your opponent or hardly win, but the trick shot you mentioned is, the trick shot is just like thief's sword 2 skill was suppose to teleport to target when press once then teleport back to where you were when press it again in few seconds, but some players found out that sword 2 skill can infinity teleport forwards the target if they can manage to the trick every time so in a period of time you can see quite a lot thief doing that to killing and trolling people and then Anet fixed it because it's not how it should be and it's broken, the trick shot you mentioned is not at that broken level but it's not a good design at least to me, it's only create illusion and false cognition(I don't know the words I choose are right but it's what my translator told me).
The difference between what I want and that is its initial and there's no trick behind it. It will all be based on the type of bo and how far their range is. There is no trick you can use to accurately shoot your opponents that are hiding behind cover or for you to shoot them while you are behind cover. It will just come down to raw skills and practice. I doubt the soft lock aim assist/homing that players get will make a difference if you didn't lock on to a target but shot up in the sky at an angle where the arrow will fall back down and hit them. It will rely purely on skills for the arrow or any other range projectile to hit its target from such an angle.
Well, maybe it's because my examples are bad, what I want to say is that kind of skill is base on something too basic(I can't find the right word I just use basic instead) I really don't think it's good or say healthy, what you want will have to bring more reality into game world but like I said before bow and arrow and archery are not like what you think, and design game base on half way realistic and deformed concept/knowledge is not good, that I think it’s need base on the reality to make a good game and balance between fun and real because players need the realistic aspect to feel things look right but too real will kill the fun, so I always try to give my opinions to devs and others base on my experience and knowledge in real life and try my best to transform what's too real and not fun to be fun but still can feel it's real.
Are you saying gravity/projectile motion isn't based on reality? It's basic enough for every class to be able to use it. What you don't want are special technics that are only accessible in one class. For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
No, not saying that.
I'm saying the reality you want bring into game doesn't help game to be fun, like I said I do archery and I can tell you I don't shoot target behind object like you mentioned, if I want to kill a guy behind a wall I simply shoot bunch of trick arrows contents oil etc then a fire arrow, I don't even want to blind guess where is he, and if the guy is behind a pillar and I can totally predict his position and distance I able to shoot turning arrows with poison on arrowheads to kill him, and all these are faster way to do what you want to do but maybe not the way you want.
update:
About
For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
this we call it class identity in MMORPGs, anyone can use any weapon doesn't mean you will able to reach the max potential of the weapon with your class for example a warrior use a wand, do you think it's reasonable that a warrior can max out the potential of wand?
If it's that what I said make you misunderstand I'm sorry, English is not my native language.
ok, I see your point but how often are you in a position where you have to shoot a target behind cover because that target is actively shooting back at you or coming at you with the intention to kill?
What I can say is that I have had to shoot a target from behind cover in a game. It happens when you're facing someone who is slightly better than you. Sometimes facing them on a fair playing field puts you at a disadvantage because they are faster than you.
Well, I can't really answer your question because I am not living in a country is in war but what I can tell you is that my best record is able to shoot 2 arrows in 1 second, so if the opponent shoot faster and accurate than me I have more chance will die, but if I'm faster and accurate than him, he will probably die first, because if the situation is that he will shoot back I won't use those trick arrows what I said, I will study him if I feel he is a better archer than me, I will shoot trick arrows content pepper powder and chili powder to him to maximize my win rate once I sure he effect by the powder I think I have more chance to take him down.
Well, I don't like these ideas because it's not really things or tricks most players able to manage to do in most of fights, so to me that level of projectile behave and gravity game design is meaningless and not fun, yeah maybe for 5~10% will consider it's fun but if a game mainly serve the most top 10~20% skillful players first that game can easily become a shit to be honest if I may.
A simple example, if you want to able to shoot arrows pass through castle/city wall etc in sieges or city wars simply make ranger's ultimate skill or siege skill able to shoot that far as a ground target AOE skill.
I just don't understand why people so hunger to make games so difficult and so hard to enter.
And few more things, that bow length don't really make draw time different mainly the draw feeling and the torque changing while drawing back, but the bow type and design and the brace height and the safe max draw length and how much over draw you want will effect the draw time when compare short medium long bows, and most long bow user don't draw over 29 inches(I assume when you guys say long bow means British long bow, if not long bow most have 30~34 max draw, but it's doesn't means short and medium bow can't shot far than long bow.) as I know because not every bow was designed to like the further you draw back the more power get from the bow, and average archer able to hit the target in 50 meters at least I can and I won't consider I am a good archer, last thing archer can shoot while running even it's a long bow.
I never said it was supposed to be something everyone can do. It's supposed to be something that skilled players can do. I'm talking about all basic range action mode attacks can use projectile motion/arcs. Since they said it's a projectile-based system, they can make projectile motion/arc. The arc doesn't have to be a visible indicator/visual line in-game. Make it so only good players can capitalize on it while adding a limit to how far arrows and other projectiles can go before hitting the ground. Longbows(like the kind that was shown in the range video) should have a longer draw time if you want a full draw. My idea is longbows will have a larger range than short bows. However, when you draw the bow by pressing the LMB, the longer you hold it the farther your arrow goes. Of course, there will be a max limit to how far your arrows can go. While the trade-off for a fully drawn longbow is that your character gets rooted to the ground. So you can still click the LMB button for a fast short-range draw but for every second you hold it your character gets a slow effect up to the point the longbow is fully drawn and the character is rooted and can't move until that shot is fired. This will also add a skill shot for archers who want to be really good and test their shots. This also means long bows become valuable and add a chase for a good longbow drop or for crafters to build. Short bows will also be useful because they will have a faster fire rate than longbows. Tab players can utilize short bows to get more shots fired at action combat players who will need a longer draw time to pull off such a skill shot. The risk/reward for short bows would be short range for a higher rate of fire than longbows. The risk/reward for longbows will be longer draw time for a larger range and a higher projectile motion/arc than the short bows. I guess short bow users can use the projectile motion/arc to do some skill shots just not at the same rand as longbows.
I guess what you saying is like player aiming higher instead of point at the target directly in order to gain more effective shoot range to able to hit a target is out of range, if I understand you wrong please correct me.
Well, I wrote a post in the feedback thread, I suggested they can make 3 different class bow type, short and medium and long, the short bow we saw in update still the same class we saw in update video which bow length is bow length under 50 inches and safe max draw length under 29 inches(but I don't like people always misunderstand that bow length is heavily relevant to effective shoot range, means I don't like the design make short bow range shorter than other bow type.), medium class include medium size bow which means bow length around 50-60 inches and long bow we saw in update video which bow length is around 65~75 inches then both simplified to same safe max draw length range at around 30~34 inches, long class is Japanese bow yumi that bow length around 83~96 inches and draw length is around 31 to over 41 inches and max safe draw length is depends on the materials and design of the bow but as I know the most are over 34 inches, and the reason I hope they add yumi is when I saw the snipe skill is shoot with one knee down and yumi is the bow I knew was design to able to shoot with one knee down and don't need to worry about hurt the bow and fit Ren’kai’s part of asia culture taste, and I'd like to see for example short and medium bow using snipe will be standing and only yumi able to be one knee down and have further benefit such as the ranged attack from opponent will have more chance to miss or less chance to crit while using snipe with yumi because the target is smaller, it create kind of synergies between weapon skills and archetype skills to further develop ranged weapon environment and diversity.(And I am consider about something about sacrifice the bow endurance to over draw the bow to gain more damage or more crit chance etc, but I don't know I think it can be fun.)
In my mind it will be like short bow focus on mobility, medium bow start to have charge mechanic to have more play style than short bow, long bow yumi is more like a sniper play style with able to sacrifice more mobility to have further charge power and to max out damage and able to take out the opponent with minimum shots like a sniper play style.
So, I don't like the way bring too much action element or say not for average player skill level elements in MMORPG becuase it's a MMORPG, MMORPG should be character build based instead of skill level based, the day I start follow Ashes of Creation and I found out that Intrepid once said the design about risk vs reward is everywhere in Ashes of Creation include tab vs action means action mode less effect by RNG and I think it's a very very bad idea, if the idea stay at action oriented skills are less effect by RNG than target oriented skills I will happy to accept it, but it's not, and it's a very bad idea to have while making a game that owner keep saying it's not for everyone because that idea is heavily and deeply divide players by skill level and I don't really know any MMORPG or online game can live well and happy and make money to further develop next expansion and don't drop large player base in 1 years with bad idea like that will heavily divide players by skill level, I just don't know how MMORPG can survive without average or say not skillful player base.
Yes, you got the point I was trying to make. However, I don't know why we can't have both skill base action mechanics that rely on people's ability to use basic weapons and regular MMORPG class skills ability. If someone can use a bows basic attack to make a skill shot there is nothing wrong with that and it doesn't take away class ability skills. It also doesn't mean that the game will automatically turn into a basic weapon attack game. It just adds another level of depth to the combat.
Maybe the reason I able to come up with are not things you will care, in my experience this level of design will highly divide players to who can do the trick shot with basic weapon attack consistently that developers aim for imply in game and who can't, it can or say mostly will become you are allowed by people play with you to use the weapon by able to do the tricks, if you can't do the tricks and they are not your friends in the end they won't play with you or you stop use that weapon, which means people will take the trick shot as a baseline without forgiveness unconsciously in most of situations.
I not saying that tricks shouldn't exist, what I trying to say is that people usually misunderstand things and the trick shot you mentioned is build in basic attack and it's not a trick developed by players through playing experience or experiment, it's consciously designed by developers in that basic level foundation and it can or say will misguide players that is the baseline to tell you are average or unskillful, for example:
https://youtu.be/oWNt_8xcOZw?t=858
three ticks in one 16 seconds fight, consider the era we don't really know the shit about how skills work, none of these will be consider as a baseline in that time, but in this day I won't consider the back jump trick is the baseline to tell a player is average or unskillful at least, this is what I trying to say.
Yes but that's the point. Not everyone should be able to successfully do the trick, especially not without practice. That's what a skill ceiling is. A majority of good players are good because they practice. They didn't just start playing the game and were godly at it. That's why there are training games on steam like kovaak which helps with aim. Also, keep in mind that class skills will still do more damage than basic ranged weapon attacks. This is no different than good players getting good gears and weapons from open-world bosses and dungeons/raids because they are good at the game.
But it shouldn't be designed by developer on purpose at that level, like in GW2 you can put weapon back to sheath to cancel skills so you don't have to waste skill/dodge on skill cancelling or cancel the animation to get a little bit more advantage dps I don't know it's intentional or not but they change a little bit about the trick so I guess it was not what they plan to do but they didn't remove it because players don't want they to remove it and the trick is not a trick difficult to do but if you can time every single time you can get dome advantage or comeback but it's not something that huge to let you can crush your opponent or hardly win, but the trick shot you mentioned is, the trick shot is just like thief's sword 2 skill was suppose to teleport to target when press once then teleport back to where you were when press it again in few seconds, but some players found out that sword 2 skill can infinity teleport forwards the target if they can manage to the trick every time so in a period of time you can see quite a lot thief doing that to killing and trolling people and then Anet fixed it because it's not how it should be and it's broken, the trick shot you mentioned is not at that broken level but it's not a good design at least to me, it's only create illusion and false cognition(I don't know the words I choose are right but it's what my translator told me).
The difference between what I want and that is its initial and there's no trick behind it. It will all be based on the type of bo and how far their range is. There is no trick you can use to accurately shoot your opponents that are hiding behind cover or for you to shoot them while you are behind cover. It will just come down to raw skills and practice. I doubt the soft lock aim assist/homing that players get will make a difference if you didn't lock on to a target but shot up in the sky at an angle where the arrow will fall back down and hit them. It will rely purely on skills for the arrow or any other range projectile to hit its target from such an angle.
Well, maybe it's because my examples are bad, what I want to say is that kind of skill is base on something too basic(I can't find the right word I just use basic instead) I really don't think it's good or say healthy, what you want will have to bring more reality into game world but like I said before bow and arrow and archery are not like what you think, and design game base on half way realistic and deformed concept/knowledge is not good, that I think it’s need base on the reality to make a good game and balance between fun and real because players need the realistic aspect to feel things look right but too real will kill the fun, so I always try to give my opinions to devs and others base on my experience and knowledge in real life and try my best to transform what's too real and not fun to be fun but still can feel it's real.
Are you saying gravity/projectile motion isn't based on reality? It's basic enough for every class to be able to use it. What you don't want are special technics that are only accessible in one class. For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
No, not saying that.
I'm saying the reality you want bring into game doesn't help game to be fun, like I said I do archery and I can tell you I don't shoot target behind object like you mentioned, if I want to kill a guy behind a wall I simply shoot bunch of trick arrows contents oil etc then a fire arrow, I don't even want to blind guess where is he, and if the guy is behind a pillar and I can totally predict his position and distance I able to shoot turning arrows with poison on arrowheads to kill him, and all these are faster way to do what you want to do but maybe not the way you want.
update:
About
For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
this we call it class identity in MMORPGs, anyone can use any weapon doesn't mean you will able to reach the max potential of the weapon with your class for example a warrior use a wand, do you think it's reasonable that a warrior can max out the potential of wand?
If it's that what I said make you misunderstand I'm sorry, English is not my native language.
ok, I see your point but how often are you in a position where you have to shoot a target behind cover because that target is actively shooting back at you or coming at you with the intention to kill?
Well, I can't really answer your question because I am not living in a country is in war but what I can tell you is that my best record is able to shoot 2 arrows in 1 second, so if the opponent shoot faster and accurate than me I have more chance will die, but if I'm faster and accurate than him, he will probably die first, because if the situation is that he will shoot back I won't use those trick arrows what I said, I will study him if I feel he is a better archer than me, I will shoot trick arrows content pepper powder and chili powder to him to maximize my win rate once I sure he effect by the powder I think I have more chance to take him down.
Just watched a MO2 video. It looks nice. The whole thing I'm proposing is to add a little more wiggle room for range combat
Well, I don't like these ideas because it's not really things or tricks most players able to manage to do in most of fights, so to me that level of projectile behave and gravity game design is meaningless and not fun, yeah maybe for 5~10% will consider it's fun but if a game mainly serve the most top 10~20% skillful players first that game can easily become a shit to be honest if I may.
A simple example, if you want to able to shoot arrows pass through castle/city wall etc in sieges or city wars simply make ranger's ultimate skill or siege skill able to shoot that far as a ground target AOE skill.
I just don't understand why people so hunger to make games so difficult and so hard to enter.
And few more things, that bow length don't really make draw time different mainly the draw feeling and the torque changing while drawing back, but the bow type and design and the brace height and the safe max draw length and how much over draw you want will effect the draw time when compare short medium long bows, and most long bow user don't draw over 29 inches(I assume when you guys say long bow means British long bow, if not long bow most have 30~34 max draw, but it's doesn't means short and medium bow can't shot far than long bow.) as I know because not every bow was designed to like the further you draw back the more power get from the bow, and average archer able to hit the target in 50 meters at least I can and I won't consider I am a good archer, last thing archer can shoot while running even it's a long bow.
I never said it was supposed to be something everyone can do. It's supposed to be something that skilled players can do. I'm talking about all basic range action mode attacks can use projectile motion/arcs. Since they said it's a projectile-based system, they can make projectile motion/arc. The arc doesn't have to be a visible indicator/visual line in-game. Make it so only good players can capitalize on it while adding a limit to how far arrows and other projectiles can go before hitting the ground. Longbows(like the kind that was shown in the range video) should have a longer draw time if you want a full draw. My idea is longbows will have a larger range than short bows. However, when you draw the bow by pressing the LMB, the longer you hold it the farther your arrow goes. Of course, there will be a max limit to how far your arrows can go. While the trade-off for a fully drawn longbow is that your character gets rooted to the ground. So you can still click the LMB button for a fast short-range draw but for every second you hold it your character gets a slow effect up to the point the longbow is fully drawn and the character is rooted and can't move until that shot is fired. This will also add a skill shot for archers who want to be really good and test their shots. This also means long bows become valuable and add a chase for a good longbow drop or for crafters to build. Short bows will also be useful because they will have a faster fire rate than longbows. Tab players can utilize short bows to get more shots fired at action combat players who will need a longer draw time to pull off such a skill shot. The risk/reward for short bows would be short range for a higher rate of fire than longbows. The risk/reward for longbows will be longer draw time for a larger range and a higher projectile motion/arc than the short bows. I guess short bow users can use the projectile motion/arc to do some skill shots just not at the same rand as longbows.
I guess what you saying is like player aiming higher instead of point at the target directly in order to gain more effective shoot range to able to hit a target is out of range, if I understand you wrong please correct me.
Well, I wrote a post in the feedback thread, I suggested they can make 3 different class bow type, short and medium and long, the short bow we saw in update still the same class we saw in update video which bow length is bow length under 50 inches and safe max draw length under 29 inches(but I don't like people always misunderstand that bow length is heavily relevant to effective shoot range, means I don't like the design make short bow range shorter than other bow type.), medium class include medium size bow which means bow length around 50-60 inches and long bow we saw in update video which bow length is around 65~75 inches then both simplified to same safe max draw length range at around 30~34 inches, long class is Japanese bow yumi that bow length around 83~96 inches and draw length is around 31 to over 41 inches and max safe draw length is depends on the materials and design of the bow but as I know the most are over 34 inches, and the reason I hope they add yumi is when I saw the snipe skill is shoot with one knee down and yumi is the bow I knew was design to able to shoot with one knee down and don't need to worry about hurt the bow and fit Ren’kai’s part of asia culture taste, and I'd like to see for example short and medium bow using snipe will be standing and only yumi able to be one knee down and have further benefit such as the ranged attack from opponent will have more chance to miss or less chance to crit while using snipe with yumi because the target is smaller, it create kind of synergies between weapon skills and archetype skills to further develop ranged weapon environment and diversity.(And I am consider about something about sacrifice the bow endurance to over draw the bow to gain more damage or more crit chance etc, but I don't know I think it can be fun.)
In my mind it will be like short bow focus on mobility, medium bow start to have charge mechanic to have more play style than short bow, long bow yumi is more like a sniper play style with able to sacrifice more mobility to have further charge power and to max out damage and able to take out the opponent with minimum shots like a sniper play style.
So, I don't like the way bring too much action element or say not for average player skill level elements in MMORPG becuase it's a MMORPG, MMORPG should be character build based instead of skill level based, the day I start follow Ashes of Creation and I found out that Intrepid once said the design about risk vs reward is everywhere in Ashes of Creation include tab vs action means action mode less effect by RNG and I think it's a very very bad idea, if the idea stay at action oriented skills are less effect by RNG than target oriented skills I will happy to accept it, but it's not, and it's a very bad idea to have while making a game that owner keep saying it's not for everyone because that idea is heavily and deeply divide players by skill level and I don't really know any MMORPG or online game can live well and happy and make money to further develop next expansion and don't drop large player base in 1 years with bad idea like that will heavily divide players by skill level, I just don't know how MMORPG can survive without average or say not skillful player base.
Yes, you got the point I was trying to make. However, I don't know why we can't have both skill base action mechanics that rely on people's ability to use basic weapons and regular MMORPG class skills ability. If someone can use a bows basic attack to make a skill shot there is nothing wrong with that and it doesn't take away class ability skills. It also doesn't mean that the game will automatically turn into a basic weapon attack game. It just adds another level of depth to the combat.
Maybe the reason I able to come up with are not things you will care, in my experience this level of design will highly divide players to who can do the trick shot with basic weapon attack consistently that developers aim for imply in game and who can't, it can or say mostly will become you are allowed by people play with you to use the weapon by able to do the tricks, if you can't do the tricks and they are not your friends in the end they won't play with you or you stop use that weapon, which means people will take the trick shot as a baseline without forgiveness unconsciously in most of situations.
I not saying that tricks shouldn't exist, what I trying to say is that people usually misunderstand things and the trick shot you mentioned is build in basic attack and it's not a trick developed by players through playing experience or experiment, it's consciously designed by developers in that basic level foundation and it can or say will misguide players that is the baseline to tell you are average or unskillful, for example:
https://youtu.be/oWNt_8xcOZw?t=858
three ticks in one 16 seconds fight, consider the era we don't really know the shit about how skills work, none of these will be consider as a baseline in that time, but in this day I won't consider the back jump trick is the baseline to tell a player is average or unskillful at least, this is what I trying to say.
Yes but that's the point. Not everyone should be able to successfully do the trick, especially not without practice. That's what a skill ceiling is. A majority of good players are good because they practice. They didn't just start playing the game and were godly at it. That's why there are training games on steam like kovaak which helps with aim. Also, keep in mind that class skills will still do more damage than basic ranged weapon attacks. This is no different than good players getting good gears and weapons from open-world bosses and dungeons/raids because they are good at the game.
But it shouldn't be designed by developer on purpose at that level, like in GW2 you can put weapon back to sheath to cancel skills so you don't have to waste skill/dodge on skill cancelling or cancel the animation to get a little bit more advantage dps I don't know it's intentional or not but they change a little bit about the trick so I guess it was not what they plan to do but they didn't remove it because players don't want they to remove it and the trick is not a trick difficult to do but if you can time every single time you can get dome advantage or comeback but it's not something that huge to let you can crush your opponent or hardly win, but the trick shot you mentioned is, the trick shot is just like thief's sword 2 skill was suppose to teleport to target when press once then teleport back to where you were when press it again in few seconds, but some players found out that sword 2 skill can infinity teleport forwards the target if they can manage to the trick every time so in a period of time you can see quite a lot thief doing that to killing and trolling people and then Anet fixed it because it's not how it should be and it's broken, the trick shot you mentioned is not at that broken level but it's not a good design at least to me, it's only create illusion and false cognition(I don't know the words I choose are right but it's what my translator told me).
The difference between what I want and that is its initial and there's no trick behind it. It will all be based on the type of bo and how far their range is. There is no trick you can use to accurately shoot your opponents that are hiding behind cover or for you to shoot them while you are behind cover. It will just come down to raw skills and practice. I doubt the soft lock aim assist/homing that players get will make a difference if you didn't lock on to a target but shot up in the sky at an angle where the arrow will fall back down and hit them. It will rely purely on skills for the arrow or any other range projectile to hit its target from such an angle.
Well, maybe it's because my examples are bad, what I want to say is that kind of skill is base on something too basic(I can't find the right word I just use basic instead) I really don't think it's good or say healthy, what you want will have to bring more reality into game world but like I said before bow and arrow and archery are not like what you think, and design game base on half way realistic and deformed concept/knowledge is not good, that I think it’s need base on the reality to make a good game and balance between fun and real because players need the realistic aspect to feel things look right but too real will kill the fun, so I always try to give my opinions to devs and others base on my experience and knowledge in real life and try my best to transform what's too real and not fun to be fun but still can feel it's real.
Are you saying gravity/projectile motion isn't based on reality? It's basic enough for every class to be able to use it. What you don't want are special technics that are only accessible in one class. For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
No, not saying that.
I'm saying the reality you want bring into game doesn't help game to be fun, like I said I do archery and I can tell you I don't shoot target behind object like you mentioned, if I want to kill a guy behind a wall I simply shoot bunch of trick arrows contents oil etc then a fire arrow, I don't even want to blind guess where is he, and if the guy is behind a pillar and I can totally predict his position and distance I able to shoot turning arrows with poison on arrowheads to kill him, and all these are faster way to do what you want to do but maybe not the way you want.
update:
About
For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
this we call it class identity in MMORPGs, anyone can use any weapon doesn't mean you will able to reach the max potential of the weapon with your class for example a warrior use a wand, do you think it's reasonable that a warrior can max out the potential of wand?
If it's that what I said make you misunderstand I'm sorry, English is not my native language.
ok, I see your point but how often are you in a position where you have to shoot a target behind cover because that target is actively shooting back at you or coming at you with the intention to kill?
Well, I can't really answer your question because I am not living in a country is in war but what I can tell you is that my best record is able to shoot 2 arrows in 1 second, so if the opponent shoot faster and accurate than me I have more chance will die, but if I'm faster and accurate than him, he will probably die first, because if the situation is that he will shoot back I won't use those trick arrows what I said, I will study him if I feel he is a better archer than me, I will shoot trick arrows content pepper powder and chili powder to him to maximize my win rate once I sure he effect by the powder I think I have more chance to take him down.
Just watched a MO2 video. It looks nice. The whole thing I'm proposing is to add a little more wiggle room for range combat
I understand your intention, it just Ashes of Creation is not an action base game, if make bow action base mechanics means other weapon will have to change with it, then everything go back to combat revamp and enter death loop.
Well, I don't like these ideas because it's not really things or tricks most players able to manage to do in most of fights, so to me that level of projectile behave and gravity game design is meaningless and not fun, yeah maybe for 5~10% will consider it's fun but if a game mainly serve the most top 10~20% skillful players first that game can easily become a shit to be honest if I may.
A simple example, if you want to able to shoot arrows pass through castle/city wall etc in sieges or city wars simply make ranger's ultimate skill or siege skill able to shoot that far as a ground target AOE skill.
I just don't understand why people so hunger to make games so difficult and so hard to enter.
And few more things, that bow length don't really make draw time different mainly the draw feeling and the torque changing while drawing back, but the bow type and design and the brace height and the safe max draw length and how much over draw you want will effect the draw time when compare short medium long bows, and most long bow user don't draw over 29 inches(I assume when you guys say long bow means British long bow, if not long bow most have 30~34 max draw, but it's doesn't means short and medium bow can't shot far than long bow.) as I know because not every bow was designed to like the further you draw back the more power get from the bow, and average archer able to hit the target in 50 meters at least I can and I won't consider I am a good archer, last thing archer can shoot while running even it's a long bow.
I never said it was supposed to be something everyone can do. It's supposed to be something that skilled players can do. I'm talking about all basic range action mode attacks can use projectile motion/arcs. Since they said it's a projectile-based system, they can make projectile motion/arc. The arc doesn't have to be a visible indicator/visual line in-game. Make it so only good players can capitalize on it while adding a limit to how far arrows and other projectiles can go before hitting the ground. Longbows(like the kind that was shown in the range video) should have a longer draw time if you want a full draw. My idea is longbows will have a larger range than short bows. However, when you draw the bow by pressing the LMB, the longer you hold it the farther your arrow goes. Of course, there will be a max limit to how far your arrows can go. While the trade-off for a fully drawn longbow is that your character gets rooted to the ground. So you can still click the LMB button for a fast short-range draw but for every second you hold it your character gets a slow effect up to the point the longbow is fully drawn and the character is rooted and can't move until that shot is fired. This will also add a skill shot for archers who want to be really good and test their shots. This also means long bows become valuable and add a chase for a good longbow drop or for crafters to build. Short bows will also be useful because they will have a faster fire rate than longbows. Tab players can utilize short bows to get more shots fired at action combat players who will need a longer draw time to pull off such a skill shot. The risk/reward for short bows would be short range for a higher rate of fire than longbows. The risk/reward for longbows will be longer draw time for a larger range and a higher projectile motion/arc than the short bows. I guess short bow users can use the projectile motion/arc to do some skill shots just not at the same rand as longbows.
I guess what you saying is like player aiming higher instead of point at the target directly in order to gain more effective shoot range to able to hit a target is out of range, if I understand you wrong please correct me.
Well, I wrote a post in the feedback thread, I suggested they can make 3 different class bow type, short and medium and long, the short bow we saw in update still the same class we saw in update video which bow length is bow length under 50 inches and safe max draw length under 29 inches(but I don't like people always misunderstand that bow length is heavily relevant to effective shoot range, means I don't like the design make short bow range shorter than other bow type.), medium class include medium size bow which means bow length around 50-60 inches and long bow we saw in update video which bow length is around 65~75 inches then both simplified to same safe max draw length range at around 30~34 inches, long class is Japanese bow yumi that bow length around 83~96 inches and draw length is around 31 to over 41 inches and max safe draw length is depends on the materials and design of the bow but as I know the most are over 34 inches, and the reason I hope they add yumi is when I saw the snipe skill is shoot with one knee down and yumi is the bow I knew was design to able to shoot with one knee down and don't need to worry about hurt the bow and fit Ren’kai’s part of asia culture taste, and I'd like to see for example short and medium bow using snipe will be standing and only yumi able to be one knee down and have further benefit such as the ranged attack from opponent will have more chance to miss or less chance to crit while using snipe with yumi because the target is smaller, it create kind of synergies between weapon skills and archetype skills to further develop ranged weapon environment and diversity.(And I am consider about something about sacrifice the bow endurance to over draw the bow to gain more damage or more crit chance etc, but I don't know I think it can be fun.)
In my mind it will be like short bow focus on mobility, medium bow start to have charge mechanic to have more play style than short bow, long bow yumi is more like a sniper play style with able to sacrifice more mobility to have further charge power and to max out damage and able to take out the opponent with minimum shots like a sniper play style.
So, I don't like the way bring too much action element or say not for average player skill level elements in MMORPG becuase it's a MMORPG, MMORPG should be character build based instead of skill level based, the day I start follow Ashes of Creation and I found out that Intrepid once said the design about risk vs reward is everywhere in Ashes of Creation include tab vs action means action mode less effect by RNG and I think it's a very very bad idea, if the idea stay at action oriented skills are less effect by RNG than target oriented skills I will happy to accept it, but it's not, and it's a very bad idea to have while making a game that owner keep saying it's not for everyone because that idea is heavily and deeply divide players by skill level and I don't really know any MMORPG or online game can live well and happy and make money to further develop next expansion and don't drop large player base in 1 years with bad idea like that will heavily divide players by skill level, I just don't know how MMORPG can survive without average or say not skillful player base.
Yes, you got the point I was trying to make. However, I don't know why we can't have both skill base action mechanics that rely on people's ability to use basic weapons and regular MMORPG class skills ability. If someone can use a bows basic attack to make a skill shot there is nothing wrong with that and it doesn't take away class ability skills. It also doesn't mean that the game will automatically turn into a basic weapon attack game. It just adds another level of depth to the combat.
Maybe the reason I able to come up with are not things you will care, in my experience this level of design will highly divide players to who can do the trick shot with basic weapon attack consistently that developers aim for imply in game and who can't, it can or say mostly will become you are allowed by people play with you to use the weapon by able to do the tricks, if you can't do the tricks and they are not your friends in the end they won't play with you or you stop use that weapon, which means people will take the trick shot as a baseline without forgiveness unconsciously in most of situations.
I not saying that tricks shouldn't exist, what I trying to say is that people usually misunderstand things and the trick shot you mentioned is build in basic attack and it's not a trick developed by players through playing experience or experiment, it's consciously designed by developers in that basic level foundation and it can or say will misguide players that is the baseline to tell you are average or unskillful, for example:
https://youtu.be/oWNt_8xcOZw?t=858
three ticks in one 16 seconds fight, consider the era we don't really know the shit about how skills work, none of these will be consider as a baseline in that time, but in this day I won't consider the back jump trick is the baseline to tell a player is average or unskillful at least, this is what I trying to say.
Yes but that's the point. Not everyone should be able to successfully do the trick, especially not without practice. That's what a skill ceiling is. A majority of good players are good because they practice. They didn't just start playing the game and were godly at it. That's why there are training games on steam like kovaak which helps with aim. Also, keep in mind that class skills will still do more damage than basic ranged weapon attacks. This is no different than good players getting good gears and weapons from open-world bosses and dungeons/raids because they are good at the game.
But it shouldn't be designed by developer on purpose at that level, like in GW2 you can put weapon back to sheath to cancel skills so you don't have to waste skill/dodge on skill cancelling or cancel the animation to get a little bit more advantage dps I don't know it's intentional or not but they change a little bit about the trick so I guess it was not what they plan to do but they didn't remove it because players don't want they to remove it and the trick is not a trick difficult to do but if you can time every single time you can get dome advantage or comeback but it's not something that huge to let you can crush your opponent or hardly win, but the trick shot you mentioned is, the trick shot is just like thief's sword 2 skill was suppose to teleport to target when press once then teleport back to where you were when press it again in few seconds, but some players found out that sword 2 skill can infinity teleport forwards the target if they can manage to the trick every time so in a period of time you can see quite a lot thief doing that to killing and trolling people and then Anet fixed it because it's not how it should be and it's broken, the trick shot you mentioned is not at that broken level but it's not a good design at least to me, it's only create illusion and false cognition(I don't know the words I choose are right but it's what my translator told me).
The difference between what I want and that is its initial and there's no trick behind it. It will all be based on the type of bo and how far their range is. There is no trick you can use to accurately shoot your opponents that are hiding behind cover or for you to shoot them while you are behind cover. It will just come down to raw skills and practice. I doubt the soft lock aim assist/homing that players get will make a difference if you didn't lock on to a target but shot up in the sky at an angle where the arrow will fall back down and hit them. It will rely purely on skills for the arrow or any other range projectile to hit its target from such an angle.
Well, maybe it's because my examples are bad, what I want to say is that kind of skill is base on something too basic(I can't find the right word I just use basic instead) I really don't think it's good or say healthy, what you want will have to bring more reality into game world but like I said before bow and arrow and archery are not like what you think, and design game base on half way realistic and deformed concept/knowledge is not good, that I think it’s need base on the reality to make a good game and balance between fun and real because players need the realistic aspect to feel things look right but too real will kill the fun, so I always try to give my opinions to devs and others base on my experience and knowledge in real life and try my best to transform what's too real and not fun to be fun but still can feel it's real.
Are you saying gravity/projectile motion isn't based on reality? It's basic enough for every class to be able to use it. What you don't want are special technics that are only accessible in one class. For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
No, not saying that.
I'm saying the reality you want bring into game doesn't help game to be fun, like I said I do archery and I can tell you I don't shoot target behind object like you mentioned, if I want to kill a guy behind a wall I simply shoot bunch of trick arrows contents oil etc then a fire arrow, I don't even want to blind guess where is he, and if the guy is behind a pillar and I can totally predict his position and distance I able to shoot turning arrows with poison on arrowheads to kill him, and all these are faster way to do what you want to do but maybe not the way you want.
update:
About
For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
this we call it class identity in MMORPGs, anyone can use any weapon doesn't mean you will able to reach the max potential of the weapon with your class for example a warrior use a wand, do you think it's reasonable that a warrior can max out the potential of wand?
If it's that what I said make you misunderstand I'm sorry, English is not my native language.
ok, I see your point but how often are you in a position where you have to shoot a target behind cover because that target is actively shooting back at you or coming at you with the intention to kill?
Well, I can't really answer your question because I am not living in a country is in war but what I can tell you is that my best record is able to shoot 2 arrows in 1 second, so if the opponent shoot faster and accurate than me I have more chance will die, but if I'm faster and accurate than him, he will probably die first, because if the situation is that he will shoot back I won't use those trick arrows what I said, I will study him if I feel he is a better archer than me, I will shoot trick arrows content pepper powder and chili powder to him to maximize my win rate once I sure he effect by the powder I think I have more chance to take him down.
Just watched a MO2 video. It looks nice. The whole thing I'm proposing is to add a little more wiggle room for range combat
I understand your intention, it just Ashes of Creation is not an action base game, if make bow action base mechanics means other weapon will have to change with it, then everything go back to combat revamp and enter death loop.
I'm not trying to make the game action based. It's a hybrid combat system. I want all range weapons and range abilities to have projectile motion. I plan on being a mage and if I fast fire, especially in the action mode of hybrid, it should follow a projectile motion. It's dumb for a game with graphics like ashes and where the gameplay isn't top down to not have projectile motion. That's the basics of using a projectile-based system.
After being referred to SCUM, a game on steam, it has incredibly realistic bow and arrow physics. You can check out the steam page and see their demo of it amongst the many videos. . . it starts out with killing a rabbit.
I guess i'll link it.
Well, I don't like these ideas because it's not really things or tricks most players able to manage to do in most of fights, so to me that level of projectile behave and gravity game design is meaningless and not fun, yeah maybe for 5~10% will consider it's fun but if a game mainly serve the most top 10~20% skillful players first that game can easily become a shit to be honest if I may.
A simple example, if you want to able to shoot arrows pass through castle/city wall etc in sieges or city wars simply make ranger's ultimate skill or siege skill able to shoot that far as a ground target AOE skill.
I just don't understand why people so hunger to make games so difficult and so hard to enter.
And few more things, that bow length don't really make draw time different mainly the draw feeling and the torque changing while drawing back, but the bow type and design and the brace height and the safe max draw length and how much over draw you want will effect the draw time when compare short medium long bows, and most long bow user don't draw over 29 inches(I assume when you guys say long bow means British long bow, if not long bow most have 30~34 max draw, but it's doesn't means short and medium bow can't shot far than long bow.) as I know because not every bow was designed to like the further you draw back the more power get from the bow, and average archer able to hit the target in 50 meters at least I can and I won't consider I am a good archer, last thing archer can shoot while running even it's a long bow.
I never said it was supposed to be something everyone can do. It's supposed to be something that skilled players can do. I'm talking about all basic range action mode attacks can use projectile motion/arcs. Since they said it's a projectile-based system, they can make projectile motion/arc. The arc doesn't have to be a visible indicator/visual line in-game. Make it so only good players can capitalize on it while adding a limit to how far arrows and other projectiles can go before hitting the ground. Longbows(like the kind that was shown in the range video) should have a longer draw time if you want a full draw. My idea is longbows will have a larger range than short bows. However, when you draw the bow by pressing the LMB, the longer you hold it the farther your arrow goes. Of course, there will be a max limit to how far your arrows can go. While the trade-off for a fully drawn longbow is that your character gets rooted to the ground. So you can still click the LMB button for a fast short-range draw but for every second you hold it your character gets a slow effect up to the point the longbow is fully drawn and the character is rooted and can't move until that shot is fired. This will also add a skill shot for archers who want to be really good and test their shots. This also means long bows become valuable and add a chase for a good longbow drop or for crafters to build. Short bows will also be useful because they will have a faster fire rate than longbows. Tab players can utilize short bows to get more shots fired at action combat players who will need a longer draw time to pull off such a skill shot. The risk/reward for short bows would be short range for a higher rate of fire than longbows. The risk/reward for longbows will be longer draw time for a larger range and a higher projectile motion/arc than the short bows. I guess short bow users can use the projectile motion/arc to do some skill shots just not at the same rand as longbows.
I guess what you saying is like player aiming higher instead of point at the target directly in order to gain more effective shoot range to able to hit a target is out of range, if I understand you wrong please correct me.
Well, I wrote a post in the feedback thread, I suggested they can make 3 different class bow type, short and medium and long, the short bow we saw in update still the same class we saw in update video which bow length is bow length under 50 inches and safe max draw length under 29 inches(but I don't like people always misunderstand that bow length is heavily relevant to effective shoot range, means I don't like the design make short bow range shorter than other bow type.), medium class include medium size bow which means bow length around 50-60 inches and long bow we saw in update video which bow length is around 65~75 inches then both simplified to same safe max draw length range at around 30~34 inches, long class is Japanese bow yumi that bow length around 83~96 inches and draw length is around 31 to over 41 inches and max safe draw length is depends on the materials and design of the bow but as I know the most are over 34 inches, and the reason I hope they add yumi is when I saw the snipe skill is shoot with one knee down and yumi is the bow I knew was design to able to shoot with one knee down and don't need to worry about hurt the bow and fit Ren’kai’s part of asia culture taste, and I'd like to see for example short and medium bow using snipe will be standing and only yumi able to be one knee down and have further benefit such as the ranged attack from opponent will have more chance to miss or less chance to crit while using snipe with yumi because the target is smaller, it create kind of synergies between weapon skills and archetype skills to further develop ranged weapon environment and diversity.(And I am consider about something about sacrifice the bow endurance to over draw the bow to gain more damage or more crit chance etc, but I don't know I think it can be fun.)
In my mind it will be like short bow focus on mobility, medium bow start to have charge mechanic to have more play style than short bow, long bow yumi is more like a sniper play style with able to sacrifice more mobility to have further charge power and to max out damage and able to take out the opponent with minimum shots like a sniper play style.
So, I don't like the way bring too much action element or say not for average player skill level elements in MMORPG becuase it's a MMORPG, MMORPG should be character build based instead of skill level based, the day I start follow Ashes of Creation and I found out that Intrepid once said the design about risk vs reward is everywhere in Ashes of Creation include tab vs action means action mode less effect by RNG and I think it's a very very bad idea, if the idea stay at action oriented skills are less effect by RNG than target oriented skills I will happy to accept it, but it's not, and it's a very bad idea to have while making a game that owner keep saying it's not for everyone because that idea is heavily and deeply divide players by skill level and I don't really know any MMORPG or online game can live well and happy and make money to further develop next expansion and don't drop large player base in 1 years with bad idea like that will heavily divide players by skill level, I just don't know how MMORPG can survive without average or say not skillful player base.
Yes, you got the point I was trying to make. However, I don't know why we can't have both skill base action mechanics that rely on people's ability to use basic weapons and regular MMORPG class skills ability. If someone can use a bows basic attack to make a skill shot there is nothing wrong with that and it doesn't take away class ability skills. It also doesn't mean that the game will automatically turn into a basic weapon attack game. It just adds another level of depth to the combat.
Maybe the reason I able to come up with are not things you will care, in my experience this level of design will highly divide players to who can do the trick shot with basic weapon attack consistently that developers aim for imply in game and who can't, it can or say mostly will become you are allowed by people play with you to use the weapon by able to do the tricks, if you can't do the tricks and they are not your friends in the end they won't play with you or you stop use that weapon, which means people will take the trick shot as a baseline without forgiveness unconsciously in most of situations.
I not saying that tricks shouldn't exist, what I trying to say is that people usually misunderstand things and the trick shot you mentioned is build in basic attack and it's not a trick developed by players through playing experience or experiment, it's consciously designed by developers in that basic level foundation and it can or say will misguide players that is the baseline to tell you are average or unskillful, for example:
https://youtu.be/oWNt_8xcOZw?t=858
three ticks in one 16 seconds fight, consider the era we don't really know the shit about how skills work, none of these will be consider as a baseline in that time, but in this day I won't consider the back jump trick is the baseline to tell a player is average or unskillful at least, this is what I trying to say.
Yes but that's the point. Not everyone should be able to successfully do the trick, especially not without practice. That's what a skill ceiling is. A majority of good players are good because they practice. They didn't just start playing the game and were godly at it. That's why there are training games on steam like kovaak which helps with aim. Also, keep in mind that class skills will still do more damage than basic ranged weapon attacks. This is no different than good players getting good gears and weapons from open-world bosses and dungeons/raids because they are good at the game.
But it shouldn't be designed by developer on purpose at that level, like in GW2 you can put weapon back to sheath to cancel skills so you don't have to waste skill/dodge on skill cancelling or cancel the animation to get a little bit more advantage dps I don't know it's intentional or not but they change a little bit about the trick so I guess it was not what they plan to do but they didn't remove it because players don't want they to remove it and the trick is not a trick difficult to do but if you can time every single time you can get dome advantage or comeback but it's not something that huge to let you can crush your opponent or hardly win, but the trick shot you mentioned is, the trick shot is just like thief's sword 2 skill was suppose to teleport to target when press once then teleport back to where you were when press it again in few seconds, but some players found out that sword 2 skill can infinity teleport forwards the target if they can manage to the trick every time so in a period of time you can see quite a lot thief doing that to killing and trolling people and then Anet fixed it because it's not how it should be and it's broken, the trick shot you mentioned is not at that broken level but it's not a good design at least to me, it's only create illusion and false cognition(I don't know the words I choose are right but it's what my translator told me).
The difference between what I want and that is its initial and there's no trick behind it. It will all be based on the type of bo and how far their range is. There is no trick you can use to accurately shoot your opponents that are hiding behind cover or for you to shoot them while you are behind cover. It will just come down to raw skills and practice. I doubt the soft lock aim assist/homing that players get will make a difference if you didn't lock on to a target but shot up in the sky at an angle where the arrow will fall back down and hit them. It will rely purely on skills for the arrow or any other range projectile to hit its target from such an angle.
Well, maybe it's because my examples are bad, what I want to say is that kind of skill is base on something too basic(I can't find the right word I just use basic instead) I really don't think it's good or say healthy, what you want will have to bring more reality into game world but like I said before bow and arrow and archery are not like what you think, and design game base on half way realistic and deformed concept/knowledge is not good, that I think it’s need base on the reality to make a good game and balance between fun and real because players need the realistic aspect to feel things look right but too real will kill the fun, so I always try to give my opinions to devs and others base on my experience and knowledge in real life and try my best to transform what's too real and not fun to be fun but still can feel it's real.
Are you saying gravity/projectile motion isn't based on reality? It's basic enough for every class to be able to use it. What you don't want are special technics that are only accessible in one class. For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
No, not saying that.
I'm saying the reality you want bring into game doesn't help game to be fun, like I said I do archery and I can tell you I don't shoot target behind object like you mentioned, if I want to kill a guy behind a wall I simply shoot bunch of trick arrows contents oil etc then a fire arrow, I don't even want to blind guess where is he, and if the guy is behind a pillar and I can totally predict his position and distance I able to shoot turning arrows with poison on arrowheads to kill him, and all these are faster way to do what you want to do but maybe not the way you want.
update:
About
For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
this we call it class identity in MMORPGs, anyone can use any weapon doesn't mean you will able to reach the max potential of the weapon with your class for example a warrior use a wand, do you think it's reasonable that a warrior can max out the potential of wand?
If it's that what I said make you misunderstand I'm sorry, English is not my native language.
ok, I see your point but how often are you in a position where you have to shoot a target behind cover because that target is actively shooting back at you or coming at you with the intention to kill?
Well, I can't really answer your question because I am not living in a country is in war but what I can tell you is that my best record is able to shoot 2 arrows in 1 second, so if the opponent shoot faster and accurate than me I have more chance will die, but if I'm faster and accurate than him, he will probably die first, because if the situation is that he will shoot back I won't use those trick arrows what I said, I will study him if I feel he is a better archer than me, I will shoot trick arrows content pepper powder and chili powder to him to maximize my win rate once I sure he effect by the powder I think I have more chance to take him down.
Just watched a MO2 video. It looks nice. The whole thing I'm proposing is to add a little more wiggle room for range combat
I understand your intention, it just Ashes of Creation is not an action base game, if make bow action base mechanics means other weapon will have to change with it, then everything go back to combat revamp and enter death loop.
I'm not trying to make the game action based. It's a hybrid combat system. I want all range weapons and range abilities to have projectile motion. I plan on being a mage and if I fast fire, especially in the action mode of hybrid, it should follow a projectile motion. It's dumb for a game with graphics like ashes and where the gameplay isn't top down to not have projectile motion. That's the basics of using a projectile-based system.
You realize that the aiming in "use reticle to aim to do projectile motion" is already a heavy action element, right?
Well, I don't like these ideas because it's not really things or tricks most players able to manage to do in most of fights, so to me that level of projectile behave and gravity game design is meaningless and not fun, yeah maybe for 5~10% will consider it's fun but if a game mainly serve the most top 10~20% skillful players first that game can easily become a shit to be honest if I may.
A simple example, if you want to able to shoot arrows pass through castle/city wall etc in sieges or city wars simply make ranger's ultimate skill or siege skill able to shoot that far as a ground target AOE skill.
I just don't understand why people so hunger to make games so difficult and so hard to enter.
And few more things, that bow length don't really make draw time different mainly the draw feeling and the torque changing while drawing back, but the bow type and design and the brace height and the safe max draw length and how much over draw you want will effect the draw time when compare short medium long bows, and most long bow user don't draw over 29 inches(I assume when you guys say long bow means British long bow, if not long bow most have 30~34 max draw, but it's doesn't means short and medium bow can't shot far than long bow.) as I know because not every bow was designed to like the further you draw back the more power get from the bow, and average archer able to hit the target in 50 meters at least I can and I won't consider I am a good archer, last thing archer can shoot while running even it's a long bow.
I never said it was supposed to be something everyone can do. It's supposed to be something that skilled players can do. I'm talking about all basic range action mode attacks can use projectile motion/arcs. Since they said it's a projectile-based system, they can make projectile motion/arc. The arc doesn't have to be a visible indicator/visual line in-game. Make it so only good players can capitalize on it while adding a limit to how far arrows and other projectiles can go before hitting the ground. Longbows(like the kind that was shown in the range video) should have a longer draw time if you want a full draw. My idea is longbows will have a larger range than short bows. However, when you draw the bow by pressing the LMB, the longer you hold it the farther your arrow goes. Of course, there will be a max limit to how far your arrows can go. While the trade-off for a fully drawn longbow is that your character gets rooted to the ground. So you can still click the LMB button for a fast short-range draw but for every second you hold it your character gets a slow effect up to the point the longbow is fully drawn and the character is rooted and can't move until that shot is fired. This will also add a skill shot for archers who want to be really good and test their shots. This also means long bows become valuable and add a chase for a good longbow drop or for crafters to build. Short bows will also be useful because they will have a faster fire rate than longbows. Tab players can utilize short bows to get more shots fired at action combat players who will need a longer draw time to pull off such a skill shot. The risk/reward for short bows would be short range for a higher rate of fire than longbows. The risk/reward for longbows will be longer draw time for a larger range and a higher projectile motion/arc than the short bows. I guess short bow users can use the projectile motion/arc to do some skill shots just not at the same rand as longbows.
I guess what you saying is like player aiming higher instead of point at the target directly in order to gain more effective shoot range to able to hit a target is out of range, if I understand you wrong please correct me.
Well, I wrote a post in the feedback thread, I suggested they can make 3 different class bow type, short and medium and long, the short bow we saw in update still the same class we saw in update video which bow length is bow length under 50 inches and safe max draw length under 29 inches(but I don't like people always misunderstand that bow length is heavily relevant to effective shoot range, means I don't like the design make short bow range shorter than other bow type.), medium class include medium size bow which means bow length around 50-60 inches and long bow we saw in update video which bow length is around 65~75 inches then both simplified to same safe max draw length range at around 30~34 inches, long class is Japanese bow yumi that bow length around 83~96 inches and draw length is around 31 to over 41 inches and max safe draw length is depends on the materials and design of the bow but as I know the most are over 34 inches, and the reason I hope they add yumi is when I saw the snipe skill is shoot with one knee down and yumi is the bow I knew was design to able to shoot with one knee down and don't need to worry about hurt the bow and fit Ren’kai’s part of asia culture taste, and I'd like to see for example short and medium bow using snipe will be standing and only yumi able to be one knee down and have further benefit such as the ranged attack from opponent will have more chance to miss or less chance to crit while using snipe with yumi because the target is smaller, it create kind of synergies between weapon skills and archetype skills to further develop ranged weapon environment and diversity.(And I am consider about something about sacrifice the bow endurance to over draw the bow to gain more damage or more crit chance etc, but I don't know I think it can be fun.)
In my mind it will be like short bow focus on mobility, medium bow start to have charge mechanic to have more play style than short bow, long bow yumi is more like a sniper play style with able to sacrifice more mobility to have further charge power and to max out damage and able to take out the opponent with minimum shots like a sniper play style.
So, I don't like the way bring too much action element or say not for average player skill level elements in MMORPG becuase it's a MMORPG, MMORPG should be character build based instead of skill level based, the day I start follow Ashes of Creation and I found out that Intrepid once said the design about risk vs reward is everywhere in Ashes of Creation include tab vs action means action mode less effect by RNG and I think it's a very very bad idea, if the idea stay at action oriented skills are less effect by RNG than target oriented skills I will happy to accept it, but it's not, and it's a very bad idea to have while making a game that owner keep saying it's not for everyone because that idea is heavily and deeply divide players by skill level and I don't really know any MMORPG or online game can live well and happy and make money to further develop next expansion and don't drop large player base in 1 years with bad idea like that will heavily divide players by skill level, I just don't know how MMORPG can survive without average or say not skillful player base.
Yes, you got the point I was trying to make. However, I don't know why we can't have both skill base action mechanics that rely on people's ability to use basic weapons and regular MMORPG class skills ability. If someone can use a bows basic attack to make a skill shot there is nothing wrong with that and it doesn't take away class ability skills. It also doesn't mean that the game will automatically turn into a basic weapon attack game. It just adds another level of depth to the combat.
Maybe the reason I able to come up with are not things you will care, in my experience this level of design will highly divide players to who can do the trick shot with basic weapon attack consistently that developers aim for imply in game and who can't, it can or say mostly will become you are allowed by people play with you to use the weapon by able to do the tricks, if you can't do the tricks and they are not your friends in the end they won't play with you or you stop use that weapon, which means people will take the trick shot as a baseline without forgiveness unconsciously in most of situations.
I not saying that tricks shouldn't exist, what I trying to say is that people usually misunderstand things and the trick shot you mentioned is build in basic attack and it's not a trick developed by players through playing experience or experiment, it's consciously designed by developers in that basic level foundation and it can or say will misguide players that is the baseline to tell you are average or unskillful, for example:
https://youtu.be/oWNt_8xcOZw?t=858
three ticks in one 16 seconds fight, consider the era we don't really know the shit about how skills work, none of these will be consider as a baseline in that time, but in this day I won't consider the back jump trick is the baseline to tell a player is average or unskillful at least, this is what I trying to say.
Yes but that's the point. Not everyone should be able to successfully do the trick, especially not without practice. That's what a skill ceiling is. A majority of good players are good because they practice. They didn't just start playing the game and were godly at it. That's why there are training games on steam like kovaak which helps with aim. Also, keep in mind that class skills will still do more damage than basic ranged weapon attacks. This is no different than good players getting good gears and weapons from open-world bosses and dungeons/raids because they are good at the game.
But it shouldn't be designed by developer on purpose at that level, like in GW2 you can put weapon back to sheath to cancel skills so you don't have to waste skill/dodge on skill cancelling or cancel the animation to get a little bit more advantage dps I don't know it's intentional or not but they change a little bit about the trick so I guess it was not what they plan to do but they didn't remove it because players don't want they to remove it and the trick is not a trick difficult to do but if you can time every single time you can get dome advantage or comeback but it's not something that huge to let you can crush your opponent or hardly win, but the trick shot you mentioned is, the trick shot is just like thief's sword 2 skill was suppose to teleport to target when press once then teleport back to where you were when press it again in few seconds, but some players found out that sword 2 skill can infinity teleport forwards the target if they can manage to the trick every time so in a period of time you can see quite a lot thief doing that to killing and trolling people and then Anet fixed it because it's not how it should be and it's broken, the trick shot you mentioned is not at that broken level but it's not a good design at least to me, it's only create illusion and false cognition(I don't know the words I choose are right but it's what my translator told me).
The difference between what I want and that is its initial and there's no trick behind it. It will all be based on the type of bo and how far their range is. There is no trick you can use to accurately shoot your opponents that are hiding behind cover or for you to shoot them while you are behind cover. It will just come down to raw skills and practice. I doubt the soft lock aim assist/homing that players get will make a difference if you didn't lock on to a target but shot up in the sky at an angle where the arrow will fall back down and hit them. It will rely purely on skills for the arrow or any other range projectile to hit its target from such an angle.
Well, maybe it's because my examples are bad, what I want to say is that kind of skill is base on something too basic(I can't find the right word I just use basic instead) I really don't think it's good or say healthy, what you want will have to bring more reality into game world but like I said before bow and arrow and archery are not like what you think, and design game base on half way realistic and deformed concept/knowledge is not good, that I think it’s need base on the reality to make a good game and balance between fun and real because players need the realistic aspect to feel things look right but too real will kill the fun, so I always try to give my opinions to devs and others base on my experience and knowledge in real life and try my best to transform what's too real and not fun to be fun but still can feel it's real.
Are you saying gravity/projectile motion isn't based on reality? It's basic enough for every class to be able to use it. What you don't want are special technics that are only accessible in one class. For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
No, not saying that.
I'm saying the reality you want bring into game doesn't help game to be fun, like I said I do archery and I can tell you I don't shoot target behind object like you mentioned, if I want to kill a guy behind a wall I simply shoot bunch of trick arrows contents oil etc then a fire arrow, I don't even want to blind guess where is he, and if the guy is behind a pillar and I can totally predict his position and distance I able to shoot turning arrows with poison on arrowheads to kill him, and all these are faster way to do what you want to do but maybe not the way you want.
update:
About
For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
this we call it class identity in MMORPGs, anyone can use any weapon doesn't mean you will able to reach the max potential of the weapon with your class for example a warrior use a wand, do you think it's reasonable that a warrior can max out the potential of wand?
If it's that what I said make you misunderstand I'm sorry, English is not my native language.
ok, I see your point but how often are you in a position where you have to shoot a target behind cover because that target is actively shooting back at you or coming at you with the intention to kill?
Well, I can't really answer your question because I am not living in a country is in war but what I can tell you is that my best record is able to shoot 2 arrows in 1 second, so if the opponent shoot faster and accurate than me I have more chance will die, but if I'm faster and accurate than him, he will probably die first, because if the situation is that he will shoot back I won't use those trick arrows what I said, I will study him if I feel he is a better archer than me, I will shoot trick arrows content pepper powder and chili powder to him to maximize my win rate once I sure he effect by the powder I think I have more chance to take him down.
Just watched a MO2 video. It looks nice. The whole thing I'm proposing is to add a little more wiggle room for range combat
I understand your intention, it just Ashes of Creation is not an action base game, if make bow action base mechanics means other weapon will have to change with it, then everything go back to combat revamp and enter death loop.
I'm not trying to make the game action based. It's a hybrid combat system. I want all range weapons and range abilities to have projectile motion. I plan on being a mage and if I fast fire, especially in the action mode of hybrid, it should follow a projectile motion. It's dumb for a game with graphics like ashes and where the gameplay isn't top down to not have projectile motion. That's the basics of using a projectile-based system.
You realize that the aiming in "use reticle to aim to do projectile motion" is already a heavy action element, right?
that's what I wanted to clearify. If its already going to bee in game then I have no problem with thee combat system
Well, I don't like these ideas because it's not really things or tricks most players able to manage to do in most of fights, so to me that level of projectile behave and gravity game design is meaningless and not fun, yeah maybe for 5~10% will consider it's fun but if a game mainly serve the most top 10~20% skillful players first that game can easily become a shit to be honest if I may.
A simple example, if you want to able to shoot arrows pass through castle/city wall etc in sieges or city wars simply make ranger's ultimate skill or siege skill able to shoot that far as a ground target AOE skill.
I just don't understand why people so hunger to make games so difficult and so hard to enter.
And few more things, that bow length don't really make draw time different mainly the draw feeling and the torque changing while drawing back, but the bow type and design and the brace height and the safe max draw length and how much over draw you want will effect the draw time when compare short medium long bows, and most long bow user don't draw over 29 inches(I assume when you guys say long bow means British long bow, if not long bow most have 30~34 max draw, but it's doesn't means short and medium bow can't shot far than long bow.) as I know because not every bow was designed to like the further you draw back the more power get from the bow, and average archer able to hit the target in 50 meters at least I can and I won't consider I am a good archer, last thing archer can shoot while running even it's a long bow.
I never said it was supposed to be something everyone can do. It's supposed to be something that skilled players can do. I'm talking about all basic range action mode attacks can use projectile motion/arcs. Since they said it's a projectile-based system, they can make projectile motion/arc. The arc doesn't have to be a visible indicator/visual line in-game. Make it so only good players can capitalize on it while adding a limit to how far arrows and other projectiles can go before hitting the ground. Longbows(like the kind that was shown in the range video) should have a longer draw time if you want a full draw. My idea is longbows will have a larger range than short bows. However, when you draw the bow by pressing the LMB, the longer you hold it the farther your arrow goes. Of course, there will be a max limit to how far your arrows can go. While the trade-off for a fully drawn longbow is that your character gets rooted to the ground. So you can still click the LMB button for a fast short-range draw but for every second you hold it your character gets a slow effect up to the point the longbow is fully drawn and the character is rooted and can't move until that shot is fired. This will also add a skill shot for archers who want to be really good and test their shots. This also means long bows become valuable and add a chase for a good longbow drop or for crafters to build. Short bows will also be useful because they will have a faster fire rate than longbows. Tab players can utilize short bows to get more shots fired at action combat players who will need a longer draw time to pull off such a skill shot. The risk/reward for short bows would be short range for a higher rate of fire than longbows. The risk/reward for longbows will be longer draw time for a larger range and a higher projectile motion/arc than the short bows. I guess short bow users can use the projectile motion/arc to do some skill shots just not at the same rand as longbows.
I guess what you saying is like player aiming higher instead of point at the target directly in order to gain more effective shoot range to able to hit a target is out of range, if I understand you wrong please correct me.
Well, I wrote a post in the feedback thread, I suggested they can make 3 different class bow type, short and medium and long, the short bow we saw in update still the same class we saw in update video which bow length is bow length under 50 inches and safe max draw length under 29 inches(but I don't like people always misunderstand that bow length is heavily relevant to effective shoot range, means I don't like the design make short bow range shorter than other bow type.), medium class include medium size bow which means bow length around 50-60 inches and long bow we saw in update video which bow length is around 65~75 inches then both simplified to same safe max draw length range at around 30~34 inches, long class is Japanese bow yumi that bow length around 83~96 inches and draw length is around 31 to over 41 inches and max safe draw length is depends on the materials and design of the bow but as I know the most are over 34 inches, and the reason I hope they add yumi is when I saw the snipe skill is shoot with one knee down and yumi is the bow I knew was design to able to shoot with one knee down and don't need to worry about hurt the bow and fit Ren’kai’s part of asia culture taste, and I'd like to see for example short and medium bow using snipe will be standing and only yumi able to be one knee down and have further benefit such as the ranged attack from opponent will have more chance to miss or less chance to crit while using snipe with yumi because the target is smaller, it create kind of synergies between weapon skills and archetype skills to further develop ranged weapon environment and diversity.(And I am consider about something about sacrifice the bow endurance to over draw the bow to gain more damage or more crit chance etc, but I don't know I think it can be fun.)
In my mind it will be like short bow focus on mobility, medium bow start to have charge mechanic to have more play style than short bow, long bow yumi is more like a sniper play style with able to sacrifice more mobility to have further charge power and to max out damage and able to take out the opponent with minimum shots like a sniper play style.
So, I don't like the way bring too much action element or say not for average player skill level elements in MMORPG becuase it's a MMORPG, MMORPG should be character build based instead of skill level based, the day I start follow Ashes of Creation and I found out that Intrepid once said the design about risk vs reward is everywhere in Ashes of Creation include tab vs action means action mode less effect by RNG and I think it's a very very bad idea, if the idea stay at action oriented skills are less effect by RNG than target oriented skills I will happy to accept it, but it's not, and it's a very bad idea to have while making a game that owner keep saying it's not for everyone because that idea is heavily and deeply divide players by skill level and I don't really know any MMORPG or online game can live well and happy and make money to further develop next expansion and don't drop large player base in 1 years with bad idea like that will heavily divide players by skill level, I just don't know how MMORPG can survive without average or say not skillful player base.
Yes, you got the point I was trying to make. However, I don't know why we can't have both skill base action mechanics that rely on people's ability to use basic weapons and regular MMORPG class skills ability. If someone can use a bows basic attack to make a skill shot there is nothing wrong with that and it doesn't take away class ability skills. It also doesn't mean that the game will automatically turn into a basic weapon attack game. It just adds another level of depth to the combat.
Maybe the reason I able to come up with are not things you will care, in my experience this level of design will highly divide players to who can do the trick shot with basic weapon attack consistently that developers aim for imply in game and who can't, it can or say mostly will become you are allowed by people play with you to use the weapon by able to do the tricks, if you can't do the tricks and they are not your friends in the end they won't play with you or you stop use that weapon, which means people will take the trick shot as a baseline without forgiveness unconsciously in most of situations.
I not saying that tricks shouldn't exist, what I trying to say is that people usually misunderstand things and the trick shot you mentioned is build in basic attack and it's not a trick developed by players through playing experience or experiment, it's consciously designed by developers in that basic level foundation and it can or say will misguide players that is the baseline to tell you are average or unskillful, for example:
https://youtu.be/oWNt_8xcOZw?t=858
three ticks in one 16 seconds fight, consider the era we don't really know the shit about how skills work, none of these will be consider as a baseline in that time, but in this day I won't consider the back jump trick is the baseline to tell a player is average or unskillful at least, this is what I trying to say.
Yes but that's the point. Not everyone should be able to successfully do the trick, especially not without practice. That's what a skill ceiling is. A majority of good players are good because they practice. They didn't just start playing the game and were godly at it. That's why there are training games on steam like kovaak which helps with aim. Also, keep in mind that class skills will still do more damage than basic ranged weapon attacks. This is no different than good players getting good gears and weapons from open-world bosses and dungeons/raids because they are good at the game.
But it shouldn't be designed by developer on purpose at that level, like in GW2 you can put weapon back to sheath to cancel skills so you don't have to waste skill/dodge on skill cancelling or cancel the animation to get a little bit more advantage dps I don't know it's intentional or not but they change a little bit about the trick so I guess it was not what they plan to do but they didn't remove it because players don't want they to remove it and the trick is not a trick difficult to do but if you can time every single time you can get dome advantage or comeback but it's not something that huge to let you can crush your opponent or hardly win, but the trick shot you mentioned is, the trick shot is just like thief's sword 2 skill was suppose to teleport to target when press once then teleport back to where you were when press it again in few seconds, but some players found out that sword 2 skill can infinity teleport forwards the target if they can manage to the trick every time so in a period of time you can see quite a lot thief doing that to killing and trolling people and then Anet fixed it because it's not how it should be and it's broken, the trick shot you mentioned is not at that broken level but it's not a good design at least to me, it's only create illusion and false cognition(I don't know the words I choose are right but it's what my translator told me).
The difference between what I want and that is its initial and there's no trick behind it. It will all be based on the type of bo and how far their range is. There is no trick you can use to accurately shoot your opponents that are hiding behind cover or for you to shoot them while you are behind cover. It will just come down to raw skills and practice. I doubt the soft lock aim assist/homing that players get will make a difference if you didn't lock on to a target but shot up in the sky at an angle where the arrow will fall back down and hit them. It will rely purely on skills for the arrow or any other range projectile to hit its target from such an angle.
Well, maybe it's because my examples are bad, what I want to say is that kind of skill is base on something too basic(I can't find the right word I just use basic instead) I really don't think it's good or say healthy, what you want will have to bring more reality into game world but like I said before bow and arrow and archery are not like what you think, and design game base on half way realistic and deformed concept/knowledge is not good, that I think it’s need base on the reality to make a good game and balance between fun and real because players need the realistic aspect to feel things look right but too real will kill the fun, so I always try to give my opinions to devs and others base on my experience and knowledge in real life and try my best to transform what's too real and not fun to be fun but still can feel it's real.
Are you saying gravity/projectile motion isn't based on reality? It's basic enough for every class to be able to use it. What you don't want are special technics that are only accessible in one class. For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
No, not saying that.
I'm saying the reality you want bring into game doesn't help game to be fun, like I said I do archery and I can tell you I don't shoot target behind object like you mentioned, if I want to kill a guy behind a wall I simply shoot bunch of trick arrows contents oil etc then a fire arrow, I don't even want to blind guess where is he, and if the guy is behind a pillar and I can totally predict his position and distance I able to shoot turning arrows with poison on arrowheads to kill him, and all these are faster way to do what you want to do but maybe not the way you want.
update:
About
For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
this we call it class identity in MMORPGs, anyone can use any weapon doesn't mean you will able to reach the max potential of the weapon with your class for example a warrior use a wand, do you think it's reasonable that a warrior can max out the potential of wand?
If it's that what I said make you misunderstand I'm sorry, English is not my native language.
ok, I see your point but how often are you in a position where you have to shoot a target behind cover because that target is actively shooting back at you or coming at you with the intention to kill?
Well, I can't really answer your question because I am not living in a country is in war but what I can tell you is that my best record is able to shoot 2 arrows in 1 second, so if the opponent shoot faster and accurate than me I have more chance will die, but if I'm faster and accurate than him, he will probably die first, because if the situation is that he will shoot back I won't use those trick arrows what I said, I will study him if I feel he is a better archer than me, I will shoot trick arrows content pepper powder and chili powder to him to maximize my win rate once I sure he effect by the powder I think I have more chance to take him down.
Just watched a MO2 video. It looks nice. The whole thing I'm proposing is to add a little more wiggle room for range combat
I understand your intention, it just Ashes of Creation is not an action base game, if make bow action base mechanics means other weapon will have to change with it, then everything go back to combat revamp and enter death loop.
I'm not trying to make the game action based. It's a hybrid combat system. I want all range weapons and range abilities to have projectile motion. I plan on being a mage and if I fast fire, especially in the action mode of hybrid, it should follow a projectile motion. It's dumb for a game with graphics like ashes and where the gameplay isn't top down to not have projectile motion. That's the basics of using a projectile-based system.
You realize that the aiming in "use reticle to aim to do projectile motion" is already a heavy action element, right?
that's what I wanted to clearify. If its already going to bee in game then I have no problem with thee combat system
Yeah what we can see in update video is in action mode you can shoot arrows without target but I can't see arrow flying so I can't sure anything about projectile motion but I hope they take the draw length and over draw to let player able to shoot far than normal draw length which means the longer you charge the far you can shoot instead of take projectile motion to make arrow fly further, timing the bow charge mechanic is a good enough action element to me.
Well, I don't like these ideas because it's not really things or tricks most players able to manage to do in most of fights, so to me that level of projectile behave and gravity game design is meaningless and not fun, yeah maybe for 5~10% will consider it's fun but if a game mainly serve the most top 10~20% skillful players first that game can easily become a shit to be honest if I may.
A simple example, if you want to able to shoot arrows pass through castle/city wall etc in sieges or city wars simply make ranger's ultimate skill or siege skill able to shoot that far as a ground target AOE skill.
I just don't understand why people so hunger to make games so difficult and so hard to enter.
And few more things, that bow length don't really make draw time different mainly the draw feeling and the torque changing while drawing back, but the bow type and design and the brace height and the safe max draw length and how much over draw you want will effect the draw time when compare short medium long bows, and most long bow user don't draw over 29 inches(I assume when you guys say long bow means British long bow, if not long bow most have 30~34 max draw, but it's doesn't means short and medium bow can't shot far than long bow.) as I know because not every bow was designed to like the further you draw back the more power get from the bow, and average archer able to hit the target in 50 meters at least I can and I won't consider I am a good archer, last thing archer can shoot while running even it's a long bow.
I never said it was supposed to be something everyone can do. It's supposed to be something that skilled players can do. I'm talking about all basic range action mode attacks can use projectile motion/arcs. Since they said it's a projectile-based system, they can make projectile motion/arc. The arc doesn't have to be a visible indicator/visual line in-game. Make it so only good players can capitalize on it while adding a limit to how far arrows and other projectiles can go before hitting the ground. Longbows(like the kind that was shown in the range video) should have a longer draw time if you want a full draw. My idea is longbows will have a larger range than short bows. However, when you draw the bow by pressing the LMB, the longer you hold it the farther your arrow goes. Of course, there will be a max limit to how far your arrows can go. While the trade-off for a fully drawn longbow is that your character gets rooted to the ground. So you can still click the LMB button for a fast short-range draw but for every second you hold it your character gets a slow effect up to the point the longbow is fully drawn and the character is rooted and can't move until that shot is fired. This will also add a skill shot for archers who want to be really good and test their shots. This also means long bows become valuable and add a chase for a good longbow drop or for crafters to build. Short bows will also be useful because they will have a faster fire rate than longbows. Tab players can utilize short bows to get more shots fired at action combat players who will need a longer draw time to pull off such a skill shot. The risk/reward for short bows would be short range for a higher rate of fire than longbows. The risk/reward for longbows will be longer draw time for a larger range and a higher projectile motion/arc than the short bows. I guess short bow users can use the projectile motion/arc to do some skill shots just not at the same rand as longbows.
I guess what you saying is like player aiming higher instead of point at the target directly in order to gain more effective shoot range to able to hit a target is out of range, if I understand you wrong please correct me.
Well, I wrote a post in the feedback thread, I suggested they can make 3 different class bow type, short and medium and long, the short bow we saw in update still the same class we saw in update video which bow length is bow length under 50 inches and safe max draw length under 29 inches(but I don't like people always misunderstand that bow length is heavily relevant to effective shoot range, means I don't like the design make short bow range shorter than other bow type.), medium class include medium size bow which means bow length around 50-60 inches and long bow we saw in update video which bow length is around 65~75 inches then both simplified to same safe max draw length range at around 30~34 inches, long class is Japanese bow yumi that bow length around 83~96 inches and draw length is around 31 to over 41 inches and max safe draw length is depends on the materials and design of the bow but as I know the most are over 34 inches, and the reason I hope they add yumi is when I saw the snipe skill is shoot with one knee down and yumi is the bow I knew was design to able to shoot with one knee down and don't need to worry about hurt the bow and fit Ren’kai’s part of asia culture taste, and I'd like to see for example short and medium bow using snipe will be standing and only yumi able to be one knee down and have further benefit such as the ranged attack from opponent will have more chance to miss or less chance to crit while using snipe with yumi because the target is smaller, it create kind of synergies between weapon skills and archetype skills to further develop ranged weapon environment and diversity.(And I am consider about something about sacrifice the bow endurance to over draw the bow to gain more damage or more crit chance etc, but I don't know I think it can be fun.)
In my mind it will be like short bow focus on mobility, medium bow start to have charge mechanic to have more play style than short bow, long bow yumi is more like a sniper play style with able to sacrifice more mobility to have further charge power and to max out damage and able to take out the opponent with minimum shots like a sniper play style.
So, I don't like the way bring too much action element or say not for average player skill level elements in MMORPG becuase it's a MMORPG, MMORPG should be character build based instead of skill level based, the day I start follow Ashes of Creation and I found out that Intrepid once said the design about risk vs reward is everywhere in Ashes of Creation include tab vs action means action mode less effect by RNG and I think it's a very very bad idea, if the idea stay at action oriented skills are less effect by RNG than target oriented skills I will happy to accept it, but it's not, and it's a very bad idea to have while making a game that owner keep saying it's not for everyone because that idea is heavily and deeply divide players by skill level and I don't really know any MMORPG or online game can live well and happy and make money to further develop next expansion and don't drop large player base in 1 years with bad idea like that will heavily divide players by skill level, I just don't know how MMORPG can survive without average or say not skillful player base.
Yes, you got the point I was trying to make. However, I don't know why we can't have both skill base action mechanics that rely on people's ability to use basic weapons and regular MMORPG class skills ability. If someone can use a bows basic attack to make a skill shot there is nothing wrong with that and it doesn't take away class ability skills. It also doesn't mean that the game will automatically turn into a basic weapon attack game. It just adds another level of depth to the combat.
Maybe the reason I able to come up with are not things you will care, in my experience this level of design will highly divide players to who can do the trick shot with basic weapon attack consistently that developers aim for imply in game and who can't, it can or say mostly will become you are allowed by people play with you to use the weapon by able to do the tricks, if you can't do the tricks and they are not your friends in the end they won't play with you or you stop use that weapon, which means people will take the trick shot as a baseline without forgiveness unconsciously in most of situations.
I not saying that tricks shouldn't exist, what I trying to say is that people usually misunderstand things and the trick shot you mentioned is build in basic attack and it's not a trick developed by players through playing experience or experiment, it's consciously designed by developers in that basic level foundation and it can or say will misguide players that is the baseline to tell you are average or unskillful, for example:
https://youtu.be/oWNt_8xcOZw?t=858
three ticks in one 16 seconds fight, consider the era we don't really know the shit about how skills work, none of these will be consider as a baseline in that time, but in this day I won't consider the back jump trick is the baseline to tell a player is average or unskillful at least, this is what I trying to say.
Yes but that's the point. Not everyone should be able to successfully do the trick, especially not without practice. That's what a skill ceiling is. A majority of good players are good because they practice. They didn't just start playing the game and were godly at it. That's why there are training games on steam like kovaak which helps with aim. Also, keep in mind that class skills will still do more damage than basic ranged weapon attacks. This is no different than good players getting good gears and weapons from open-world bosses and dungeons/raids because they are good at the game.
But it shouldn't be designed by developer on purpose at that level, like in GW2 you can put weapon back to sheath to cancel skills so you don't have to waste skill/dodge on skill cancelling or cancel the animation to get a little bit more advantage dps I don't know it's intentional or not but they change a little bit about the trick so I guess it was not what they plan to do but they didn't remove it because players don't want they to remove it and the trick is not a trick difficult to do but if you can time every single time you can get dome advantage or comeback but it's not something that huge to let you can crush your opponent or hardly win, but the trick shot you mentioned is, the trick shot is just like thief's sword 2 skill was suppose to teleport to target when press once then teleport back to where you were when press it again in few seconds, but some players found out that sword 2 skill can infinity teleport forwards the target if they can manage to the trick every time so in a period of time you can see quite a lot thief doing that to killing and trolling people and then Anet fixed it because it's not how it should be and it's broken, the trick shot you mentioned is not at that broken level but it's not a good design at least to me, it's only create illusion and false cognition(I don't know the words I choose are right but it's what my translator told me).
The difference between what I want and that is its initial and there's no trick behind it. It will all be based on the type of bo and how far their range is. There is no trick you can use to accurately shoot your opponents that are hiding behind cover or for you to shoot them while you are behind cover. It will just come down to raw skills and practice. I doubt the soft lock aim assist/homing that players get will make a difference if you didn't lock on to a target but shot up in the sky at an angle where the arrow will fall back down and hit them. It will rely purely on skills for the arrow or any other range projectile to hit its target from such an angle.
Well, maybe it's because my examples are bad, what I want to say is that kind of skill is base on something too basic(I can't find the right word I just use basic instead) I really don't think it's good or say healthy, what you want will have to bring more reality into game world but like I said before bow and arrow and archery are not like what you think, and design game base on half way realistic and deformed concept/knowledge is not good, that I think it’s need base on the reality to make a good game and balance between fun and real because players need the realistic aspect to feel things look right but too real will kill the fun, so I always try to give my opinions to devs and others base on my experience and knowledge in real life and try my best to transform what's too real and not fun to be fun but still can feel it's real.
Are you saying gravity/projectile motion isn't based on reality? It's basic enough for every class to be able to use it. What you don't want are special technics that are only accessible in one class. For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
No, not saying that.
I'm saying the reality you want bring into game doesn't help game to be fun, like I said I do archery and I can tell you I don't shoot target behind object like you mentioned, if I want to kill a guy behind a wall I simply shoot bunch of trick arrows contents oil etc then a fire arrow, I don't even want to blind guess where is he, and if the guy is behind a pillar and I can totally predict his position and distance I able to shoot turning arrows with poison on arrowheads to kill him, and all these are faster way to do what you want to do but maybe not the way you want.
update:
About
For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
this we call it class identity in MMORPGs, anyone can use any weapon doesn't mean you will able to reach the max potential of the weapon with your class for example a warrior use a wand, do you think it's reasonable that a warrior can max out the potential of wand?
If it's that what I said make you misunderstand I'm sorry, English is not my native language.
ok, I see your point but how often are you in a position where you have to shoot a target behind cover because that target is actively shooting back at you or coming at you with the intention to kill?
Well, I can't really answer your question because I am not living in a country is in war but what I can tell you is that my best record is able to shoot 2 arrows in 1 second, so if the opponent shoot faster and accurate than me I have more chance will die, but if I'm faster and accurate than him, he will probably die first, because if the situation is that he will shoot back I won't use those trick arrows what I said, I will study him if I feel he is a better archer than me, I will shoot trick arrows content pepper powder and chili powder to him to maximize my win rate once I sure he effect by the powder I think I have more chance to take him down.
Just watched a MO2 video. It looks nice. The whole thing I'm proposing is to add a little more wiggle room for range combat
I understand your intention, it just Ashes of Creation is not an action base game, if make bow action base mechanics means other weapon will have to change with it, then everything go back to combat revamp and enter death loop.
I'm not trying to make the game action based. It's a hybrid combat system. I want all range weapons and range abilities to have projectile motion. I plan on being a mage and if I fast fire, especially in the action mode of hybrid, it should follow a projectile motion. It's dumb for a game with graphics like ashes and where the gameplay isn't top down to not have projectile motion. That's the basics of using a projectile-based system.
You realize that the aiming in "use reticle to aim to do projectile motion" is already a heavy action element, right?
that's what I wanted to clearify. If its already going to bee in game then I have no problem with thee combat system
Yeah what we can see in update video is in action mode you can shoot arrows without target but I can't see arrow flying so I can't sure anything about projectile motion but I hope they take the draw length and over draw to let player able to shoot far than normal draw length which means the longer you charge the far you can shoot instead of take projectile motion to make arrow fly further, timing the bow charge mechanic is a good enough action element to me.
I agree with you it's just when I say projectile motion I'm not thinking about using it for arrows to fly farther but rather using it to hit someone hiding behind an object like a rock. I like things that add a little bit of vertical play and make people think about the best way to handle certain situations. This also adds an extra dynamic to sieges where the attack can shoot at the defenders on top of the wall within range of course.
Well, I don't like these ideas because it's not really things or tricks most players able to manage to do in most of fights, so to me that level of projectile behave and gravity game design is meaningless and not fun, yeah maybe for 5~10% will consider it's fun but if a game mainly serve the most top 10~20% skillful players first that game can easily become a shit to be honest if I may.
A simple example, if you want to able to shoot arrows pass through castle/city wall etc in sieges or city wars simply make ranger's ultimate skill or siege skill able to shoot that far as a ground target AOE skill.
I just don't understand why people so hunger to make games so difficult and so hard to enter.
And few more things, that bow length don't really make draw time different mainly the draw feeling and the torque changing while drawing back, but the bow type and design and the brace height and the safe max draw length and how much over draw you want will effect the draw time when compare short medium long bows, and most long bow user don't draw over 29 inches(I assume when you guys say long bow means British long bow, if not long bow most have 30~34 max draw, but it's doesn't means short and medium bow can't shot far than long bow.) as I know because not every bow was designed to like the further you draw back the more power get from the bow, and average archer able to hit the target in 50 meters at least I can and I won't consider I am a good archer, last thing archer can shoot while running even it's a long bow.
I never said it was supposed to be something everyone can do. It's supposed to be something that skilled players can do. I'm talking about all basic range action mode attacks can use projectile motion/arcs. Since they said it's a projectile-based system, they can make projectile motion/arc. The arc doesn't have to be a visible indicator/visual line in-game. Make it so only good players can capitalize on it while adding a limit to how far arrows and other projectiles can go before hitting the ground. Longbows(like the kind that was shown in the range video) should have a longer draw time if you want a full draw. My idea is longbows will have a larger range than short bows. However, when you draw the bow by pressing the LMB, the longer you hold it the farther your arrow goes. Of course, there will be a max limit to how far your arrows can go. While the trade-off for a fully drawn longbow is that your character gets rooted to the ground. So you can still click the LMB button for a fast short-range draw but for every second you hold it your character gets a slow effect up to the point the longbow is fully drawn and the character is rooted and can't move until that shot is fired. This will also add a skill shot for archers who want to be really good and test their shots. This also means long bows become valuable and add a chase for a good longbow drop or for crafters to build. Short bows will also be useful because they will have a faster fire rate than longbows. Tab players can utilize short bows to get more shots fired at action combat players who will need a longer draw time to pull off such a skill shot. The risk/reward for short bows would be short range for a higher rate of fire than longbows. The risk/reward for longbows will be longer draw time for a larger range and a higher projectile motion/arc than the short bows. I guess short bow users can use the projectile motion/arc to do some skill shots just not at the same rand as longbows.
I guess what you saying is like player aiming higher instead of point at the target directly in order to gain more effective shoot range to able to hit a target is out of range, if I understand you wrong please correct me.
Well, I wrote a post in the feedback thread, I suggested they can make 3 different class bow type, short and medium and long, the short bow we saw in update still the same class we saw in update video which bow length is bow length under 50 inches and safe max draw length under 29 inches(but I don't like people always misunderstand that bow length is heavily relevant to effective shoot range, means I don't like the design make short bow range shorter than other bow type.), medium class include medium size bow which means bow length around 50-60 inches and long bow we saw in update video which bow length is around 65~75 inches then both simplified to same safe max draw length range at around 30~34 inches, long class is Japanese bow yumi that bow length around 83~96 inches and draw length is around 31 to over 41 inches and max safe draw length is depends on the materials and design of the bow but as I know the most are over 34 inches, and the reason I hope they add yumi is when I saw the snipe skill is shoot with one knee down and yumi is the bow I knew was design to able to shoot with one knee down and don't need to worry about hurt the bow and fit Ren’kai’s part of asia culture taste, and I'd like to see for example short and medium bow using snipe will be standing and only yumi able to be one knee down and have further benefit such as the ranged attack from opponent will have more chance to miss or less chance to crit while using snipe with yumi because the target is smaller, it create kind of synergies between weapon skills and archetype skills to further develop ranged weapon environment and diversity.(And I am consider about something about sacrifice the bow endurance to over draw the bow to gain more damage or more crit chance etc, but I don't know I think it can be fun.)
In my mind it will be like short bow focus on mobility, medium bow start to have charge mechanic to have more play style than short bow, long bow yumi is more like a sniper play style with able to sacrifice more mobility to have further charge power and to max out damage and able to take out the opponent with minimum shots like a sniper play style.
So, I don't like the way bring too much action element or say not for average player skill level elements in MMORPG becuase it's a MMORPG, MMORPG should be character build based instead of skill level based, the day I start follow Ashes of Creation and I found out that Intrepid once said the design about risk vs reward is everywhere in Ashes of Creation include tab vs action means action mode less effect by RNG and I think it's a very very bad idea, if the idea stay at action oriented skills are less effect by RNG than target oriented skills I will happy to accept it, but it's not, and it's a very bad idea to have while making a game that owner keep saying it's not for everyone because that idea is heavily and deeply divide players by skill level and I don't really know any MMORPG or online game can live well and happy and make money to further develop next expansion and don't drop large player base in 1 years with bad idea like that will heavily divide players by skill level, I just don't know how MMORPG can survive without average or say not skillful player base.
Yes, you got the point I was trying to make. However, I don't know why we can't have both skill base action mechanics that rely on people's ability to use basic weapons and regular MMORPG class skills ability. If someone can use a bows basic attack to make a skill shot there is nothing wrong with that and it doesn't take away class ability skills. It also doesn't mean that the game will automatically turn into a basic weapon attack game. It just adds another level of depth to the combat.
Maybe the reason I able to come up with are not things you will care, in my experience this level of design will highly divide players to who can do the trick shot with basic weapon attack consistently that developers aim for imply in game and who can't, it can or say mostly will become you are allowed by people play with you to use the weapon by able to do the tricks, if you can't do the tricks and they are not your friends in the end they won't play with you or you stop use that weapon, which means people will take the trick shot as a baseline without forgiveness unconsciously in most of situations.
I not saying that tricks shouldn't exist, what I trying to say is that people usually misunderstand things and the trick shot you mentioned is build in basic attack and it's not a trick developed by players through playing experience or experiment, it's consciously designed by developers in that basic level foundation and it can or say will misguide players that is the baseline to tell you are average or unskillful, for example:
https://youtu.be/oWNt_8xcOZw?t=858
three ticks in one 16 seconds fight, consider the era we don't really know the shit about how skills work, none of these will be consider as a baseline in that time, but in this day I won't consider the back jump trick is the baseline to tell a player is average or unskillful at least, this is what I trying to say.
Yes but that's the point. Not everyone should be able to successfully do the trick, especially not without practice. That's what a skill ceiling is. A majority of good players are good because they practice. They didn't just start playing the game and were godly at it. That's why there are training games on steam like kovaak which helps with aim. Also, keep in mind that class skills will still do more damage than basic ranged weapon attacks. This is no different than good players getting good gears and weapons from open-world bosses and dungeons/raids because they are good at the game.
But it shouldn't be designed by developer on purpose at that level, like in GW2 you can put weapon back to sheath to cancel skills so you don't have to waste skill/dodge on skill cancelling or cancel the animation to get a little bit more advantage dps I don't know it's intentional or not but they change a little bit about the trick so I guess it was not what they plan to do but they didn't remove it because players don't want they to remove it and the trick is not a trick difficult to do but if you can time every single time you can get dome advantage or comeback but it's not something that huge to let you can crush your opponent or hardly win, but the trick shot you mentioned is, the trick shot is just like thief's sword 2 skill was suppose to teleport to target when press once then teleport back to where you were when press it again in few seconds, but some players found out that sword 2 skill can infinity teleport forwards the target if they can manage to the trick every time so in a period of time you can see quite a lot thief doing that to killing and trolling people and then Anet fixed it because it's not how it should be and it's broken, the trick shot you mentioned is not at that broken level but it's not a good design at least to me, it's only create illusion and false cognition(I don't know the words I choose are right but it's what my translator told me).
The difference between what I want and that is its initial and there's no trick behind it. It will all be based on the type of bo and how far their range is. There is no trick you can use to accurately shoot your opponents that are hiding behind cover or for you to shoot them while you are behind cover. It will just come down to raw skills and practice. I doubt the soft lock aim assist/homing that players get will make a difference if you didn't lock on to a target but shot up in the sky at an angle where the arrow will fall back down and hit them. It will rely purely on skills for the arrow or any other range projectile to hit its target from such an angle.
Well, maybe it's because my examples are bad, what I want to say is that kind of skill is base on something too basic(I can't find the right word I just use basic instead) I really don't think it's good or say healthy, what you want will have to bring more reality into game world but like I said before bow and arrow and archery are not like what you think, and design game base on half way realistic and deformed concept/knowledge is not good, that I think it’s need base on the reality to make a good game and balance between fun and real because players need the realistic aspect to feel things look right but too real will kill the fun, so I always try to give my opinions to devs and others base on my experience and knowledge in real life and try my best to transform what's too real and not fun to be fun but still can feel it's real.
Are you saying gravity/projectile motion isn't based on reality? It's basic enough for every class to be able to use it. What you don't want are special technics that are only accessible in one class. For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
No, not saying that.
I'm saying the reality you want bring into game doesn't help game to be fun, like I said I do archery and I can tell you I don't shoot target behind object like you mentioned, if I want to kill a guy behind a wall I simply shoot bunch of trick arrows contents oil etc then a fire arrow, I don't even want to blind guess where is he, and if the guy is behind a pillar and I can totally predict his position and distance I able to shoot turning arrows with poison on arrowheads to kill him, and all these are faster way to do what you want to do but maybe not the way you want.
update:
About
For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
this we call it class identity in MMORPGs, anyone can use any weapon doesn't mean you will able to reach the max potential of the weapon with your class for example a warrior use a wand, do you think it's reasonable that a warrior can max out the potential of wand?
If it's that what I said make you misunderstand I'm sorry, English is not my native language.
ok, I see your point but how often are you in a position where you have to shoot a target behind cover because that target is actively shooting back at you or coming at you with the intention to kill?
Well, I can't really answer your question because I am not living in a country is in war but what I can tell you is that my best record is able to shoot 2 arrows in 1 second, so if the opponent shoot faster and accurate than me I have more chance will die, but if I'm faster and accurate than him, he will probably die first, because if the situation is that he will shoot back I won't use those trick arrows what I said, I will study him if I feel he is a better archer than me, I will shoot trick arrows content pepper powder and chili powder to him to maximize my win rate once I sure he effect by the powder I think I have more chance to take him down.
Just watched a MO2 video. It looks nice. The whole thing I'm proposing is to add a little more wiggle room for range combat
I understand your intention, it just Ashes of Creation is not an action base game, if make bow action base mechanics means other weapon will have to change with it, then everything go back to combat revamp and enter death loop.
I'm not trying to make the game action based. It's a hybrid combat system. I want all range weapons and range abilities to have projectile motion. I plan on being a mage and if I fast fire, especially in the action mode of hybrid, it should follow a projectile motion. It's dumb for a game with graphics like ashes and where the gameplay isn't top down to not have projectile motion. That's the basics of using a projectile-based system.
You realize that the aiming in "use reticle to aim to do projectile motion" is already a heavy action element, right?
that's what I wanted to clearify. If its already going to bee in game then I have no problem with thee combat system
Yeah what we can see in update video is in action mode you can shoot arrows without target but I can't see arrow flying so I can't sure anything about projectile motion but I hope they take the draw length and over draw to let player able to shoot far than normal draw length which means the longer you charge the far you can shoot instead of take projectile motion to make arrow fly further, timing the bow charge mechanic is a good enough action element to me.
I agree with you it's just when I say projectile motion I'm not thinking about using it for arrows to fly farther but rather using it to hit someone hiding behind an object like a rock. I like things that add a little bit of vertical play and make people think about the best way to handle certain situations. This also adds an extra dynamic to sieges where the attack can shoot at the defenders on top of the wall within range of course.
Oh yes, I forgot that sorry, to that I just don't want ranged weapon to have that abilities to do such thing because MMORPG should be like a warrior is effective to against ranger, ranger is effective to against mage, mage is effective to against warrior, and situations like you mentioned I prefer to give certain class some abilities to deal with the situations, like if they just hide behind a ruin of a house without roof and the mages in my team can use meteor to push them out, or if they are in a house with roof maybe ranger will have some skills that shot a arrow in straight line but it will explode in the end of the line or hit the first object or player etc and cause a aoe dot/consistent damage like a cloud of poison etc, yeah these are what I prefer game design, because it's more forgive to players and make teamwork thinking and co-work effort more stand out and to feel the joy instead of base on player skill level to make the way out and yes it can be a joy from other perspectives but I don't really have much good experiences in such games use that game design philosophy for example like co-op pve/pvp game base on player skill level and those game work because it's base on divide players by skill level using game modes like LOL or APEX or Destiny 2 it's maybe okay because game mode is limited to 3~5 players in one team and system matching players in a roughly same skill level range but use that game design philosophy in a MMORPG it will lose player base in the end.
Well, I don't like these ideas because it's not really things or tricks most players able to manage to do in most of fights, so to me that level of projectile behave and gravity game design is meaningless and not fun, yeah maybe for 5~10% will consider it's fun but if a game mainly serve the most top 10~20% skillful players first that game can easily become a shit to be honest if I may.
A simple example, if you want to able to shoot arrows pass through castle/city wall etc in sieges or city wars simply make ranger's ultimate skill or siege skill able to shoot that far as a ground target AOE skill.
I just don't understand why people so hunger to make games so difficult and so hard to enter.
And few more things, that bow length don't really make draw time different mainly the draw feeling and the torque changing while drawing back, but the bow type and design and the brace height and the safe max draw length and how much over draw you want will effect the draw time when compare short medium long bows, and most long bow user don't draw over 29 inches(I assume when you guys say long bow means British long bow, if not long bow most have 30~34 max draw, but it's doesn't means short and medium bow can't shot far than long bow.) as I know because not every bow was designed to like the further you draw back the more power get from the bow, and average archer able to hit the target in 50 meters at least I can and I won't consider I am a good archer, last thing archer can shoot while running even it's a long bow.
I never said it was supposed to be something everyone can do. It's supposed to be something that skilled players can do. I'm talking about all basic range action mode attacks can use projectile motion/arcs. Since they said it's a projectile-based system, they can make projectile motion/arc. The arc doesn't have to be a visible indicator/visual line in-game. Make it so only good players can capitalize on it while adding a limit to how far arrows and other projectiles can go before hitting the ground. Longbows(like the kind that was shown in the range video) should have a longer draw time if you want a full draw. My idea is longbows will have a larger range than short bows. However, when you draw the bow by pressing the LMB, the longer you hold it the farther your arrow goes. Of course, there will be a max limit to how far your arrows can go. While the trade-off for a fully drawn longbow is that your character gets rooted to the ground. So you can still click the LMB button for a fast short-range draw but for every second you hold it your character gets a slow effect up to the point the longbow is fully drawn and the character is rooted and can't move until that shot is fired. This will also add a skill shot for archers who want to be really good and test their shots. This also means long bows become valuable and add a chase for a good longbow drop or for crafters to build. Short bows will also be useful because they will have a faster fire rate than longbows. Tab players can utilize short bows to get more shots fired at action combat players who will need a longer draw time to pull off such a skill shot. The risk/reward for short bows would be short range for a higher rate of fire than longbows. The risk/reward for longbows will be longer draw time for a larger range and a higher projectile motion/arc than the short bows. I guess short bow users can use the projectile motion/arc to do some skill shots just not at the same rand as longbows.
I guess what you saying is like player aiming higher instead of point at the target directly in order to gain more effective shoot range to able to hit a target is out of range, if I understand you wrong please correct me.
Well, I wrote a post in the feedback thread, I suggested they can make 3 different class bow type, short and medium and long, the short bow we saw in update still the same class we saw in update video which bow length is bow length under 50 inches and safe max draw length under 29 inches(but I don't like people always misunderstand that bow length is heavily relevant to effective shoot range, means I don't like the design make short bow range shorter than other bow type.), medium class include medium size bow which means bow length around 50-60 inches and long bow we saw in update video which bow length is around 65~75 inches then both simplified to same safe max draw length range at around 30~34 inches, long class is Japanese bow yumi that bow length around 83~96 inches and draw length is around 31 to over 41 inches and max safe draw length is depends on the materials and design of the bow but as I know the most are over 34 inches, and the reason I hope they add yumi is when I saw the snipe skill is shoot with one knee down and yumi is the bow I knew was design to able to shoot with one knee down and don't need to worry about hurt the bow and fit Ren’kai’s part of asia culture taste, and I'd like to see for example short and medium bow using snipe will be standing and only yumi able to be one knee down and have further benefit such as the ranged attack from opponent will have more chance to miss or less chance to crit while using snipe with yumi because the target is smaller, it create kind of synergies between weapon skills and archetype skills to further develop ranged weapon environment and diversity.(And I am consider about something about sacrifice the bow endurance to over draw the bow to gain more damage or more crit chance etc, but I don't know I think it can be fun.)
In my mind it will be like short bow focus on mobility, medium bow start to have charge mechanic to have more play style than short bow, long bow yumi is more like a sniper play style with able to sacrifice more mobility to have further charge power and to max out damage and able to take out the opponent with minimum shots like a sniper play style.
So, I don't like the way bring too much action element or say not for average player skill level elements in MMORPG becuase it's a MMORPG, MMORPG should be character build based instead of skill level based, the day I start follow Ashes of Creation and I found out that Intrepid once said the design about risk vs reward is everywhere in Ashes of Creation include tab vs action means action mode less effect by RNG and I think it's a very very bad idea, if the idea stay at action oriented skills are less effect by RNG than target oriented skills I will happy to accept it, but it's not, and it's a very bad idea to have while making a game that owner keep saying it's not for everyone because that idea is heavily and deeply divide players by skill level and I don't really know any MMORPG or online game can live well and happy and make money to further develop next expansion and don't drop large player base in 1 years with bad idea like that will heavily divide players by skill level, I just don't know how MMORPG can survive without average or say not skillful player base.
Yes, you got the point I was trying to make. However, I don't know why we can't have both skill base action mechanics that rely on people's ability to use basic weapons and regular MMORPG class skills ability. If someone can use a bows basic attack to make a skill shot there is nothing wrong with that and it doesn't take away class ability skills. It also doesn't mean that the game will automatically turn into a basic weapon attack game. It just adds another level of depth to the combat.
Maybe the reason I able to come up with are not things you will care, in my experience this level of design will highly divide players to who can do the trick shot with basic weapon attack consistently that developers aim for imply in game and who can't, it can or say mostly will become you are allowed by people play with you to use the weapon by able to do the tricks, if you can't do the tricks and they are not your friends in the end they won't play with you or you stop use that weapon, which means people will take the trick shot as a baseline without forgiveness unconsciously in most of situations.
I not saying that tricks shouldn't exist, what I trying to say is that people usually misunderstand things and the trick shot you mentioned is build in basic attack and it's not a trick developed by players through playing experience or experiment, it's consciously designed by developers in that basic level foundation and it can or say will misguide players that is the baseline to tell you are average or unskillful, for example:
https://youtu.be/oWNt_8xcOZw?t=858
three ticks in one 16 seconds fight, consider the era we don't really know the shit about how skills work, none of these will be consider as a baseline in that time, but in this day I won't consider the back jump trick is the baseline to tell a player is average or unskillful at least, this is what I trying to say.
Yes but that's the point. Not everyone should be able to successfully do the trick, especially not without practice. That's what a skill ceiling is. A majority of good players are good because they practice. They didn't just start playing the game and were godly at it. That's why there are training games on steam like kovaak which helps with aim. Also, keep in mind that class skills will still do more damage than basic ranged weapon attacks. This is no different than good players getting good gears and weapons from open-world bosses and dungeons/raids because they are good at the game.
But it shouldn't be designed by developer on purpose at that level, like in GW2 you can put weapon back to sheath to cancel skills so you don't have to waste skill/dodge on skill cancelling or cancel the animation to get a little bit more advantage dps I don't know it's intentional or not but they change a little bit about the trick so I guess it was not what they plan to do but they didn't remove it because players don't want they to remove it and the trick is not a trick difficult to do but if you can time every single time you can get dome advantage or comeback but it's not something that huge to let you can crush your opponent or hardly win, but the trick shot you mentioned is, the trick shot is just like thief's sword 2 skill was suppose to teleport to target when press once then teleport back to where you were when press it again in few seconds, but some players found out that sword 2 skill can infinity teleport forwards the target if they can manage to the trick every time so in a period of time you can see quite a lot thief doing that to killing and trolling people and then Anet fixed it because it's not how it should be and it's broken, the trick shot you mentioned is not at that broken level but it's not a good design at least to me, it's only create illusion and false cognition(I don't know the words I choose are right but it's what my translator told me).
The difference between what I want and that is its initial and there's no trick behind it. It will all be based on the type of bo and how far their range is. There is no trick you can use to accurately shoot your opponents that are hiding behind cover or for you to shoot them while you are behind cover. It will just come down to raw skills and practice. I doubt the soft lock aim assist/homing that players get will make a difference if you didn't lock on to a target but shot up in the sky at an angle where the arrow will fall back down and hit them. It will rely purely on skills for the arrow or any other range projectile to hit its target from such an angle.
Well, maybe it's because my examples are bad, what I want to say is that kind of skill is base on something too basic(I can't find the right word I just use basic instead) I really don't think it's good or say healthy, what you want will have to bring more reality into game world but like I said before bow and arrow and archery are not like what you think, and design game base on half way realistic and deformed concept/knowledge is not good, that I think it’s need base on the reality to make a good game and balance between fun and real because players need the realistic aspect to feel things look right but too real will kill the fun, so I always try to give my opinions to devs and others base on my experience and knowledge in real life and try my best to transform what's too real and not fun to be fun but still can feel it's real.
Are you saying gravity/projectile motion isn't based on reality? It's basic enough for every class to be able to use it. What you don't want are special technics that are only accessible in one class. For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
No, not saying that.
I'm saying the reality you want bring into game doesn't help game to be fun, like I said I do archery and I can tell you I don't shoot target behind object like you mentioned, if I want to kill a guy behind a wall I simply shoot bunch of trick arrows contents oil etc then a fire arrow, I don't even want to blind guess where is he, and if the guy is behind a pillar and I can totally predict his position and distance I able to shoot turning arrows with poison on arrowheads to kill him, and all these are faster way to do what you want to do but maybe not the way you want.
update:
About
For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
this we call it class identity in MMORPGs, anyone can use any weapon doesn't mean you will able to reach the max potential of the weapon with your class for example a warrior use a wand, do you think it's reasonable that a warrior can max out the potential of wand?
If it's that what I said make you misunderstand I'm sorry, English is not my native language.
ok, I see your point but how often are you in a position where you have to shoot a target behind cover because that target is actively shooting back at you or coming at you with the intention to kill?
Well, I can't really answer your question because I am not living in a country is in war but what I can tell you is that my best record is able to shoot 2 arrows in 1 second, so if the opponent shoot faster and accurate than me I have more chance will die, but if I'm faster and accurate than him, he will probably die first, because if the situation is that he will shoot back I won't use those trick arrows what I said, I will study him if I feel he is a better archer than me, I will shoot trick arrows content pepper powder and chili powder to him to maximize my win rate once I sure he effect by the powder I think I have more chance to take him down.
Just watched a MO2 video. It looks nice. The whole thing I'm proposing is to add a little more wiggle room for range combat
I understand your intention, it just Ashes of Creation is not an action base game, if make bow action base mechanics means other weapon will have to change with it, then everything go back to combat revamp and enter death loop.
I'm not trying to make the game action based. It's a hybrid combat system. I want all range weapons and range abilities to have projectile motion. I plan on being a mage and if I fast fire, especially in the action mode of hybrid, it should follow a projectile motion. It's dumb for a game with graphics like ashes and where the gameplay isn't top down to not have projectile motion. That's the basics of using a projectile-based system.
You realize that the aiming in "use reticle to aim to do projectile motion" is already a heavy action element, right?
that's what I wanted to clearify. If its already going to bee in game then I have no problem with thee combat system
Yeah what we can see in update video is in action mode you can shoot arrows without target but I can't see arrow flying so I can't sure anything about projectile motion but I hope they take the draw length and over draw to let player able to shoot far than normal draw length which means the longer you charge the far you can shoot instead of take projectile motion to make arrow fly further, timing the bow charge mechanic is a good enough action element to me.
I agree with you it's just when I say projectile motion I'm not thinking about using it for arrows to fly farther but rather using it to hit someone hiding behind an object like a rock. I like things that add a little bit of vertical play and make people think about the best way to handle certain situations. This also adds an extra dynamic to sieges where the attack can shoot at the defenders on top of the wall within range of course.
Oh yes, I forgot that sorry, to that I just don't want ranged weapon to have that abilities to do such thing because MMORPG should be like a warrior is effective to against ranger, ranger is effective to against mage, mage is effective to against warrior, and situations like you mentioned I prefer to give certain class some abilities to deal with the situations, like if they just hide behind a ruin of a house without roof and the mages in my team can use meteor to push them out, or if they are in a house with roof maybe ranger will have some skills that shot a arrow in straight line but it will explode in the end of the line or hit the first object or player etc and cause a aoe dot/consistent damage like a cloud of poison etc, yeah these are what I prefer game design, because it's more forgive to players and make teamwork thinking and co-work effort more stand out and to feel the joy instead of base on player skill level to make the way out and yes it can be a joy from other perspectives but I don't really have much good experiences in such games use that game design philosophy for example like co-op pve/pvp game base on player skill level and those game work because it's base on divide players by skill level using game modes like LOL or APEX or Destiny 2 it's maybe okay because game mode is limited to 3~5 players in one team and system matching players in a roughly same skill level range but use that game design philosophy in a MMORPG it will lose player base in the end.
Yea but the cool part about Ashes is that weapons aren't locked behind classes and not everyone will be able to capitalize on them unless they practice. Which to me is no different than players who raid a lot and get higher stat gears. I don't think anyone would argue against giving good raiders better gears. Also, fighters do have a dodge/dash ability so I shouldn't really affect them any more than a normal archer. Just because you can shoot an arrow at an angle where it can go over a rock and fall back down due to gravity doesn't mean you can spam that in a rapid-fire manner. It will just be something the player can do occasionally depending on the situation where the opposing target is playing passively. If you really think about it having the ability to do such a skill shot is no different than a mage who can just cast a meteor. However, this will be something that is available to everyone who wants to run a bow giving them the ability to successfully do it once or twice every now and then but rare enough to the point where it only becomes a problem when playing against a really good player. I should mention what I want isn't a special ranger skill. It will just be something you can do with a bow depending on what type of bow it is. It won't be any more spamming than a normal longbow shot(which I want a little longer draw time). Where you have to hold the LMB to draw and hold the shot until the release of the LMB.
Well, I don't like these ideas because it's not really things or tricks most players able to manage to do in most of fights, so to me that level of projectile behave and gravity game design is meaningless and not fun, yeah maybe for 5~10% will consider it's fun but if a game mainly serve the most top 10~20% skillful players first that game can easily become a shit to be honest if I may.
A simple example, if you want to able to shoot arrows pass through castle/city wall etc in sieges or city wars simply make ranger's ultimate skill or siege skill able to shoot that far as a ground target AOE skill.
I just don't understand why people so hunger to make games so difficult and so hard to enter.
And few more things, that bow length don't really make draw time different mainly the draw feeling and the torque changing while drawing back, but the bow type and design and the brace height and the safe max draw length and how much over draw you want will effect the draw time when compare short medium long bows, and most long bow user don't draw over 29 inches(I assume when you guys say long bow means British long bow, if not long bow most have 30~34 max draw, but it's doesn't means short and medium bow can't shot far than long bow.) as I know because not every bow was designed to like the further you draw back the more power get from the bow, and average archer able to hit the target in 50 meters at least I can and I won't consider I am a good archer, last thing archer can shoot while running even it's a long bow.
I never said it was supposed to be something everyone can do. It's supposed to be something that skilled players can do. I'm talking about all basic range action mode attacks can use projectile motion/arcs. Since they said it's a projectile-based system, they can make projectile motion/arc. The arc doesn't have to be a visible indicator/visual line in-game. Make it so only good players can capitalize on it while adding a limit to how far arrows and other projectiles can go before hitting the ground. Longbows(like the kind that was shown in the range video) should have a longer draw time if you want a full draw. My idea is longbows will have a larger range than short bows. However, when you draw the bow by pressing the LMB, the longer you hold it the farther your arrow goes. Of course, there will be a max limit to how far your arrows can go. While the trade-off for a fully drawn longbow is that your character gets rooted to the ground. So you can still click the LMB button for a fast short-range draw but for every second you hold it your character gets a slow effect up to the point the longbow is fully drawn and the character is rooted and can't move until that shot is fired. This will also add a skill shot for archers who want to be really good and test their shots. This also means long bows become valuable and add a chase for a good longbow drop or for crafters to build. Short bows will also be useful because they will have a faster fire rate than longbows. Tab players can utilize short bows to get more shots fired at action combat players who will need a longer draw time to pull off such a skill shot. The risk/reward for short bows would be short range for a higher rate of fire than longbows. The risk/reward for longbows will be longer draw time for a larger range and a higher projectile motion/arc than the short bows. I guess short bow users can use the projectile motion/arc to do some skill shots just not at the same rand as longbows.
I guess what you saying is like player aiming higher instead of point at the target directly in order to gain more effective shoot range to able to hit a target is out of range, if I understand you wrong please correct me.
Well, I wrote a post in the feedback thread, I suggested they can make 3 different class bow type, short and medium and long, the short bow we saw in update still the same class we saw in update video which bow length is bow length under 50 inches and safe max draw length under 29 inches(but I don't like people always misunderstand that bow length is heavily relevant to effective shoot range, means I don't like the design make short bow range shorter than other bow type.), medium class include medium size bow which means bow length around 50-60 inches and long bow we saw in update video which bow length is around 65~75 inches then both simplified to same safe max draw length range at around 30~34 inches, long class is Japanese bow yumi that bow length around 83~96 inches and draw length is around 31 to over 41 inches and max safe draw length is depends on the materials and design of the bow but as I know the most are over 34 inches, and the reason I hope they add yumi is when I saw the snipe skill is shoot with one knee down and yumi is the bow I knew was design to able to shoot with one knee down and don't need to worry about hurt the bow and fit Ren’kai’s part of asia culture taste, and I'd like to see for example short and medium bow using snipe will be standing and only yumi able to be one knee down and have further benefit such as the ranged attack from opponent will have more chance to miss or less chance to crit while using snipe with yumi because the target is smaller, it create kind of synergies between weapon skills and archetype skills to further develop ranged weapon environment and diversity.(And I am consider about something about sacrifice the bow endurance to over draw the bow to gain more damage or more crit chance etc, but I don't know I think it can be fun.)
In my mind it will be like short bow focus on mobility, medium bow start to have charge mechanic to have more play style than short bow, long bow yumi is more like a sniper play style with able to sacrifice more mobility to have further charge power and to max out damage and able to take out the opponent with minimum shots like a sniper play style.
So, I don't like the way bring too much action element or say not for average player skill level elements in MMORPG becuase it's a MMORPG, MMORPG should be character build based instead of skill level based, the day I start follow Ashes of Creation and I found out that Intrepid once said the design about risk vs reward is everywhere in Ashes of Creation include tab vs action means action mode less effect by RNG and I think it's a very very bad idea, if the idea stay at action oriented skills are less effect by RNG than target oriented skills I will happy to accept it, but it's not, and it's a very bad idea to have while making a game that owner keep saying it's not for everyone because that idea is heavily and deeply divide players by skill level and I don't really know any MMORPG or online game can live well and happy and make money to further develop next expansion and don't drop large player base in 1 years with bad idea like that will heavily divide players by skill level, I just don't know how MMORPG can survive without average or say not skillful player base.
Yes, you got the point I was trying to make. However, I don't know why we can't have both skill base action mechanics that rely on people's ability to use basic weapons and regular MMORPG class skills ability. If someone can use a bows basic attack to make a skill shot there is nothing wrong with that and it doesn't take away class ability skills. It also doesn't mean that the game will automatically turn into a basic weapon attack game. It just adds another level of depth to the combat.
Maybe the reason I able to come up with are not things you will care, in my experience this level of design will highly divide players to who can do the trick shot with basic weapon attack consistently that developers aim for imply in game and who can't, it can or say mostly will become you are allowed by people play with you to use the weapon by able to do the tricks, if you can't do the tricks and they are not your friends in the end they won't play with you or you stop use that weapon, which means people will take the trick shot as a baseline without forgiveness unconsciously in most of situations.
I not saying that tricks shouldn't exist, what I trying to say is that people usually misunderstand things and the trick shot you mentioned is build in basic attack and it's not a trick developed by players through playing experience or experiment, it's consciously designed by developers in that basic level foundation and it can or say will misguide players that is the baseline to tell you are average or unskillful, for example:
https://youtu.be/oWNt_8xcOZw?t=858
three ticks in one 16 seconds fight, consider the era we don't really know the shit about how skills work, none of these will be consider as a baseline in that time, but in this day I won't consider the back jump trick is the baseline to tell a player is average or unskillful at least, this is what I trying to say.
Yes but that's the point. Not everyone should be able to successfully do the trick, especially not without practice. That's what a skill ceiling is. A majority of good players are good because they practice. They didn't just start playing the game and were godly at it. That's why there are training games on steam like kovaak which helps with aim. Also, keep in mind that class skills will still do more damage than basic ranged weapon attacks. This is no different than good players getting good gears and weapons from open-world bosses and dungeons/raids because they are good at the game.
But it shouldn't be designed by developer on purpose at that level, like in GW2 you can put weapon back to sheath to cancel skills so you don't have to waste skill/dodge on skill cancelling or cancel the animation to get a little bit more advantage dps I don't know it's intentional or not but they change a little bit about the trick so I guess it was not what they plan to do but they didn't remove it because players don't want they to remove it and the trick is not a trick difficult to do but if you can time every single time you can get dome advantage or comeback but it's not something that huge to let you can crush your opponent or hardly win, but the trick shot you mentioned is, the trick shot is just like thief's sword 2 skill was suppose to teleport to target when press once then teleport back to where you were when press it again in few seconds, but some players found out that sword 2 skill can infinity teleport forwards the target if they can manage to the trick every time so in a period of time you can see quite a lot thief doing that to killing and trolling people and then Anet fixed it because it's not how it should be and it's broken, the trick shot you mentioned is not at that broken level but it's not a good design at least to me, it's only create illusion and false cognition(I don't know the words I choose are right but it's what my translator told me).
The difference between what I want and that is its initial and there's no trick behind it. It will all be based on the type of bo and how far their range is. There is no trick you can use to accurately shoot your opponents that are hiding behind cover or for you to shoot them while you are behind cover. It will just come down to raw skills and practice. I doubt the soft lock aim assist/homing that players get will make a difference if you didn't lock on to a target but shot up in the sky at an angle where the arrow will fall back down and hit them. It will rely purely on skills for the arrow or any other range projectile to hit its target from such an angle.
Well, maybe it's because my examples are bad, what I want to say is that kind of skill is base on something too basic(I can't find the right word I just use basic instead) I really don't think it's good or say healthy, what you want will have to bring more reality into game world but like I said before bow and arrow and archery are not like what you think, and design game base on half way realistic and deformed concept/knowledge is not good, that I think it’s need base on the reality to make a good game and balance between fun and real because players need the realistic aspect to feel things look right but too real will kill the fun, so I always try to give my opinions to devs and others base on my experience and knowledge in real life and try my best to transform what's too real and not fun to be fun but still can feel it's real.
Are you saying gravity/projectile motion isn't based on reality? It's basic enough for every class to be able to use it. What you don't want are special technics that are only accessible in one class. For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
No, not saying that.
I'm saying the reality you want bring into game doesn't help game to be fun, like I said I do archery and I can tell you I don't shoot target behind object like you mentioned, if I want to kill a guy behind a wall I simply shoot bunch of trick arrows contents oil etc then a fire arrow, I don't even want to blind guess where is he, and if the guy is behind a pillar and I can totally predict his position and distance I able to shoot turning arrows with poison on arrowheads to kill him, and all these are faster way to do what you want to do but maybe not the way you want.
update:
About
For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
this we call it class identity in MMORPGs, anyone can use any weapon doesn't mean you will able to reach the max potential of the weapon with your class for example a warrior use a wand, do you think it's reasonable that a warrior can max out the potential of wand?
If it's that what I said make you misunderstand I'm sorry, English is not my native language.
ok, I see your point but how often are you in a position where you have to shoot a target behind cover because that target is actively shooting back at you or coming at you with the intention to kill?
Well, I can't really answer your question because I am not living in a country is in war but what I can tell you is that my best record is able to shoot 2 arrows in 1 second, so if the opponent shoot faster and accurate than me I have more chance will die, but if I'm faster and accurate than him, he will probably die first, because if the situation is that he will shoot back I won't use those trick arrows what I said, I will study him if I feel he is a better archer than me, I will shoot trick arrows content pepper powder and chili powder to him to maximize my win rate once I sure he effect by the powder I think I have more chance to take him down.
Just watched a MO2 video. It looks nice. The whole thing I'm proposing is to add a little more wiggle room for range combat
I understand your intention, it just Ashes of Creation is not an action base game, if make bow action base mechanics means other weapon will have to change with it, then everything go back to combat revamp and enter death loop.
I'm not trying to make the game action based. It's a hybrid combat system. I want all range weapons and range abilities to have projectile motion. I plan on being a mage and if I fast fire, especially in the action mode of hybrid, it should follow a projectile motion. It's dumb for a game with graphics like ashes and where the gameplay isn't top down to not have projectile motion. That's the basics of using a projectile-based system.
You realize that the aiming in "use reticle to aim to do projectile motion" is already a heavy action element, right?
that's what I wanted to clearify. If its already going to bee in game then I have no problem with thee combat system
Yeah what we can see in update video is in action mode you can shoot arrows without target but I can't see arrow flying so I can't sure anything about projectile motion but I hope they take the draw length and over draw to let player able to shoot far than normal draw length which means the longer you charge the far you can shoot instead of take projectile motion to make arrow fly further, timing the bow charge mechanic is a good enough action element to me.
I agree with you it's just when I say projectile motion I'm not thinking about using it for arrows to fly farther but rather using it to hit someone hiding behind an object like a rock. I like things that add a little bit of vertical play and make people think about the best way to handle certain situations. This also adds an extra dynamic to sieges where the attack can shoot at the defenders on top of the wall within range of course.
Oh yes, I forgot that sorry, to that I just don't want ranged weapon to have that abilities to do such thing because MMORPG should be like a warrior is effective to against ranger, ranger is effective to against mage, mage is effective to against warrior, and situations like you mentioned I prefer to give certain class some abilities to deal with the situations, like if they just hide behind a ruin of a house without roof and the mages in my team can use meteor to push them out, or if they are in a house with roof maybe ranger will have some skills that shot a arrow in straight line but it will explode in the end of the line or hit the first object or player etc and cause a aoe dot/consistent damage like a cloud of poison etc, yeah these are what I prefer game design, because it's more forgive to players and make teamwork thinking and co-work effort more stand out and to feel the joy instead of base on player skill level to make the way out and yes it can be a joy from other perspectives but I don't really have much good experiences in such games use that game design philosophy for example like co-op pve/pvp game base on player skill level and those game work because it's base on divide players by skill level using game modes like LOL or APEX or Destiny 2 it's maybe okay because game mode is limited to 3~5 players in one team and system matching players in a roughly same skill level range but use that game design philosophy in a MMORPG it will lose player base in the end.
Yea but the cool part about Ashes is that weapons aren't locked behind classes and not everyone will be able to capitalize on them unless they practice. Which to me is no different than players who raid a lot and get higher stat gears. I don't think anyone would argue against giving good raiders better gears. Also, fighters do have a dodge/dash ability so I shouldn't really affect them any more than a normal archer. Just because you can shoot an arrow at an angle where it can go over a rock and fall back down due to gravity doesn't mean you can spam that in a rapid-fire manner. It will just be something the player can do occasionally depending on the situation where the opposing target is playing passively. If you really think about it having the ability to do such a skill shot is no different than a mage who can just cast a meteor. However, this will be something that is available to everyone who wants to run a bow giving them the ability to successfully do it once or twice every now and then but rare enough to the point where it only becomes a problem when playing against a really good player. I should mention what I want isn't a special ranger skill. It will just be something you can do with a bow depending on what type of bow it is. It won't be any more spamming than a normal longbow shot(which I want a little longer draw time). Where you have to hold the LMB to draw and hold the shot until the release of the LMB.
Umm, I really understand the joy you want to bring, it's like what bows capable to do in Splatoon 3 yes it's fun and it takes practices but it's still more like blind guess shots with luck(or say it’s base on your target usually forgot about those shots so they don’t think they need keep moving) at most of time to me despite maybe most of Splatoon player won't agree with me because in most people's mind they think that kind of shots is kind of skill because people more like to think they are good at instinctively aiming but the fact is to make that kind of shots work you have to 100% sure one thing is your target will be where you aim for but most of time it's just the target didn't consistently moving because they think it's safe behind object instead of it's you knew the target will move to where at the moment you release the shot, besides that kind of shots require the game design base I don't see that in Ashes of Creation.
Well, I don't like these ideas because it's not really things or tricks most players able to manage to do in most of fights, so to me that level of projectile behave and gravity game design is meaningless and not fun, yeah maybe for 5~10% will consider it's fun but if a game mainly serve the most top 10~20% skillful players first that game can easily become a shit to be honest if I may.
A simple example, if you want to able to shoot arrows pass through castle/city wall etc in sieges or city wars simply make ranger's ultimate skill or siege skill able to shoot that far as a ground target AOE skill.
I just don't understand why people so hunger to make games so difficult and so hard to enter.
And few more things, that bow length don't really make draw time different mainly the draw feeling and the torque changing while drawing back, but the bow type and design and the brace height and the safe max draw length and how much over draw you want will effect the draw time when compare short medium long bows, and most long bow user don't draw over 29 inches(I assume when you guys say long bow means British long bow, if not long bow most have 30~34 max draw, but it's doesn't means short and medium bow can't shot far than long bow.) as I know because not every bow was designed to like the further you draw back the more power get from the bow, and average archer able to hit the target in 50 meters at least I can and I won't consider I am a good archer, last thing archer can shoot while running even it's a long bow.
I never said it was supposed to be something everyone can do. It's supposed to be something that skilled players can do. I'm talking about all basic range action mode attacks can use projectile motion/arcs. Since they said it's a projectile-based system, they can make projectile motion/arc. The arc doesn't have to be a visible indicator/visual line in-game. Make it so only good players can capitalize on it while adding a limit to how far arrows and other projectiles can go before hitting the ground. Longbows(like the kind that was shown in the range video) should have a longer draw time if you want a full draw. My idea is longbows will have a larger range than short bows. However, when you draw the bow by pressing the LMB, the longer you hold it the farther your arrow goes. Of course, there will be a max limit to how far your arrows can go. While the trade-off for a fully drawn longbow is that your character gets rooted to the ground. So you can still click the LMB button for a fast short-range draw but for every second you hold it your character gets a slow effect up to the point the longbow is fully drawn and the character is rooted and can't move until that shot is fired. This will also add a skill shot for archers who want to be really good and test their shots. This also means long bows become valuable and add a chase for a good longbow drop or for crafters to build. Short bows will also be useful because they will have a faster fire rate than longbows. Tab players can utilize short bows to get more shots fired at action combat players who will need a longer draw time to pull off such a skill shot. The risk/reward for short bows would be short range for a higher rate of fire than longbows. The risk/reward for longbows will be longer draw time for a larger range and a higher projectile motion/arc than the short bows. I guess short bow users can use the projectile motion/arc to do some skill shots just not at the same rand as longbows.
I guess what you saying is like player aiming higher instead of point at the target directly in order to gain more effective shoot range to able to hit a target is out of range, if I understand you wrong please correct me.
Well, I wrote a post in the feedback thread, I suggested they can make 3 different class bow type, short and medium and long, the short bow we saw in update still the same class we saw in update video which bow length is bow length under 50 inches and safe max draw length under 29 inches(but I don't like people always misunderstand that bow length is heavily relevant to effective shoot range, means I don't like the design make short bow range shorter than other bow type.), medium class include medium size bow which means bow length around 50-60 inches and long bow we saw in update video which bow length is around 65~75 inches then both simplified to same safe max draw length range at around 30~34 inches, long class is Japanese bow yumi that bow length around 83~96 inches and draw length is around 31 to over 41 inches and max safe draw length is depends on the materials and design of the bow but as I know the most are over 34 inches, and the reason I hope they add yumi is when I saw the snipe skill is shoot with one knee down and yumi is the bow I knew was design to able to shoot with one knee down and don't need to worry about hurt the bow and fit Ren’kai’s part of asia culture taste, and I'd like to see for example short and medium bow using snipe will be standing and only yumi able to be one knee down and have further benefit such as the ranged attack from opponent will have more chance to miss or less chance to crit while using snipe with yumi because the target is smaller, it create kind of synergies between weapon skills and archetype skills to further develop ranged weapon environment and diversity.(And I am consider about something about sacrifice the bow endurance to over draw the bow to gain more damage or more crit chance etc, but I don't know I think it can be fun.)
In my mind it will be like short bow focus on mobility, medium bow start to have charge mechanic to have more play style than short bow, long bow yumi is more like a sniper play style with able to sacrifice more mobility to have further charge power and to max out damage and able to take out the opponent with minimum shots like a sniper play style.
So, I don't like the way bring too much action element or say not for average player skill level elements in MMORPG becuase it's a MMORPG, MMORPG should be character build based instead of skill level based, the day I start follow Ashes of Creation and I found out that Intrepid once said the design about risk vs reward is everywhere in Ashes of Creation include tab vs action means action mode less effect by RNG and I think it's a very very bad idea, if the idea stay at action oriented skills are less effect by RNG than target oriented skills I will happy to accept it, but it's not, and it's a very bad idea to have while making a game that owner keep saying it's not for everyone because that idea is heavily and deeply divide players by skill level and I don't really know any MMORPG or online game can live well and happy and make money to further develop next expansion and don't drop large player base in 1 years with bad idea like that will heavily divide players by skill level, I just don't know how MMORPG can survive without average or say not skillful player base.
Yes, you got the point I was trying to make. However, I don't know why we can't have both skill base action mechanics that rely on people's ability to use basic weapons and regular MMORPG class skills ability. If someone can use a bows basic attack to make a skill shot there is nothing wrong with that and it doesn't take away class ability skills. It also doesn't mean that the game will automatically turn into a basic weapon attack game. It just adds another level of depth to the combat.
Maybe the reason I able to come up with are not things you will care, in my experience this level of design will highly divide players to who can do the trick shot with basic weapon attack consistently that developers aim for imply in game and who can't, it can or say mostly will become you are allowed by people play with you to use the weapon by able to do the tricks, if you can't do the tricks and they are not your friends in the end they won't play with you or you stop use that weapon, which means people will take the trick shot as a baseline without forgiveness unconsciously in most of situations.
I not saying that tricks shouldn't exist, what I trying to say is that people usually misunderstand things and the trick shot you mentioned is build in basic attack and it's not a trick developed by players through playing experience or experiment, it's consciously designed by developers in that basic level foundation and it can or say will misguide players that is the baseline to tell you are average or unskillful, for example:
https://youtu.be/oWNt_8xcOZw?t=858
three ticks in one 16 seconds fight, consider the era we don't really know the shit about how skills work, none of these will be consider as a baseline in that time, but in this day I won't consider the back jump trick is the baseline to tell a player is average or unskillful at least, this is what I trying to say.
Yes but that's the point. Not everyone should be able to successfully do the trick, especially not without practice. That's what a skill ceiling is. A majority of good players are good because they practice. They didn't just start playing the game and were godly at it. That's why there are training games on steam like kovaak which helps with aim. Also, keep in mind that class skills will still do more damage than basic ranged weapon attacks. This is no different than good players getting good gears and weapons from open-world bosses and dungeons/raids because they are good at the game.
But it shouldn't be designed by developer on purpose at that level, like in GW2 you can put weapon back to sheath to cancel skills so you don't have to waste skill/dodge on skill cancelling or cancel the animation to get a little bit more advantage dps I don't know it's intentional or not but they change a little bit about the trick so I guess it was not what they plan to do but they didn't remove it because players don't want they to remove it and the trick is not a trick difficult to do but if you can time every single time you can get dome advantage or comeback but it's not something that huge to let you can crush your opponent or hardly win, but the trick shot you mentioned is, the trick shot is just like thief's sword 2 skill was suppose to teleport to target when press once then teleport back to where you were when press it again in few seconds, but some players found out that sword 2 skill can infinity teleport forwards the target if they can manage to the trick every time so in a period of time you can see quite a lot thief doing that to killing and trolling people and then Anet fixed it because it's not how it should be and it's broken, the trick shot you mentioned is not at that broken level but it's not a good design at least to me, it's only create illusion and false cognition(I don't know the words I choose are right but it's what my translator told me).
The difference between what I want and that is its initial and there's no trick behind it. It will all be based on the type of bo and how far their range is. There is no trick you can use to accurately shoot your opponents that are hiding behind cover or for you to shoot them while you are behind cover. It will just come down to raw skills and practice. I doubt the soft lock aim assist/homing that players get will make a difference if you didn't lock on to a target but shot up in the sky at an angle where the arrow will fall back down and hit them. It will rely purely on skills for the arrow or any other range projectile to hit its target from such an angle.
Well, maybe it's because my examples are bad, what I want to say is that kind of skill is base on something too basic(I can't find the right word I just use basic instead) I really don't think it's good or say healthy, what you want will have to bring more reality into game world but like I said before bow and arrow and archery are not like what you think, and design game base on half way realistic and deformed concept/knowledge is not good, that I think it’s need base on the reality to make a good game and balance between fun and real because players need the realistic aspect to feel things look right but too real will kill the fun, so I always try to give my opinions to devs and others base on my experience and knowledge in real life and try my best to transform what's too real and not fun to be fun but still can feel it's real.
Are you saying gravity/projectile motion isn't based on reality? It's basic enough for every class to be able to use it. What you don't want are special technics that are only accessible in one class. For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
No, not saying that.
I'm saying the reality you want bring into game doesn't help game to be fun, like I said I do archery and I can tell you I don't shoot target behind object like you mentioned, if I want to kill a guy behind a wall I simply shoot bunch of trick arrows contents oil etc then a fire arrow, I don't even want to blind guess where is he, and if the guy is behind a pillar and I can totally predict his position and distance I able to shoot turning arrows with poison on arrowheads to kill him, and all these are faster way to do what you want to do but maybe not the way you want.
update:
About
For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
this we call it class identity in MMORPGs, anyone can use any weapon doesn't mean you will able to reach the max potential of the weapon with your class for example a warrior use a wand, do you think it's reasonable that a warrior can max out the potential of wand?
If it's that what I said make you misunderstand I'm sorry, English is not my native language.
ok, I see your point but how often are you in a position where you have to shoot a target behind cover because that target is actively shooting back at you or coming at you with the intention to kill?
Well, I can't really answer your question because I am not living in a country is in war but what I can tell you is that my best record is able to shoot 2 arrows in 1 second, so if the opponent shoot faster and accurate than me I have more chance will die, but if I'm faster and accurate than him, he will probably die first, because if the situation is that he will shoot back I won't use those trick arrows what I said, I will study him if I feel he is a better archer than me, I will shoot trick arrows content pepper powder and chili powder to him to maximize my win rate once I sure he effect by the powder I think I have more chance to take him down.
Just watched a MO2 video. It looks nice. The whole thing I'm proposing is to add a little more wiggle room for range combat
I understand your intention, it just Ashes of Creation is not an action base game, if make bow action base mechanics means other weapon will have to change with it, then everything go back to combat revamp and enter death loop.
I'm not trying to make the game action based. It's a hybrid combat system. I want all range weapons and range abilities to have projectile motion. I plan on being a mage and if I fast fire, especially in the action mode of hybrid, it should follow a projectile motion. It's dumb for a game with graphics like ashes and where the gameplay isn't top down to not have projectile motion. That's the basics of using a projectile-based system.
You realize that the aiming in "use reticle to aim to do projectile motion" is already a heavy action element, right?
that's what I wanted to clearify. If its already going to bee in game then I have no problem with thee combat system
Yeah what we can see in update video is in action mode you can shoot arrows without target but I can't see arrow flying so I can't sure anything about projectile motion but I hope they take the draw length and over draw to let player able to shoot far than normal draw length which means the longer you charge the far you can shoot instead of take projectile motion to make arrow fly further, timing the bow charge mechanic is a good enough action element to me.
I agree with you it's just when I say projectile motion I'm not thinking about using it for arrows to fly farther but rather using it to hit someone hiding behind an object like a rock. I like things that add a little bit of vertical play and make people think about the best way to handle certain situations. This also adds an extra dynamic to sieges where the attack can shoot at the defenders on top of the wall within range of course.
Oh yes, I forgot that sorry, to that I just don't want ranged weapon to have that abilities to do such thing because MMORPG should be like a warrior is effective to against ranger, ranger is effective to against mage, mage is effective to against warrior, and situations like you mentioned I prefer to give certain class some abilities to deal with the situations, like if they just hide behind a ruin of a house without roof and the mages in my team can use meteor to push them out, or if they are in a house with roof maybe ranger will have some skills that shot a arrow in straight line but it will explode in the end of the line or hit the first object or player etc and cause a aoe dot/consistent damage like a cloud of poison etc, yeah these are what I prefer game design, because it's more forgive to players and make teamwork thinking and co-work effort more stand out and to feel the joy instead of base on player skill level to make the way out and yes it can be a joy from other perspectives but I don't really have much good experiences in such games use that game design philosophy for example like co-op pve/pvp game base on player skill level and those game work because it's base on divide players by skill level using game modes like LOL or APEX or Destiny 2 it's maybe okay because game mode is limited to 3~5 players in one team and system matching players in a roughly same skill level range but use that game design philosophy in a MMORPG it will lose player base in the end.
Yea but the cool part about Ashes is that weapons aren't locked behind classes and not everyone will be able to capitalize on them unless they practice. Which to me is no different than players who raid a lot and get higher stat gears. I don't think anyone would argue against giving good raiders better gears. Also, fighters do have a dodge/dash ability so I shouldn't really affect them any more than a normal archer. Just because you can shoot an arrow at an angle where it can go over a rock and fall back down due to gravity doesn't mean you can spam that in a rapid-fire manner. It will just be something the player can do occasionally depending on the situation where the opposing target is playing passively. If you really think about it having the ability to do such a skill shot is no different than a mage who can just cast a meteor. However, this will be something that is available to everyone who wants to run a bow giving them the ability to successfully do it once or twice every now and then but rare enough to the point where it only becomes a problem when playing against a really good player. I should mention what I want isn't a special ranger skill. It will just be something you can do with a bow depending on what type of bow it is. It won't be any more spamming than a normal longbow shot(which I want a little longer draw time). Where you have to hold the LMB to draw and hold the shot until the release of the LMB.
Umm, I really understand the joy you want to bring, it's like what bows capable to do in Splatoon 3 yes it's fun and it takes practices but it's still more like blind guess shots with luck(or say it’s base on your target usually forgot about those shots so they don’t think they need keep moving) at most of time to me despite maybe most of Splatoon player won't agree with me because in most people's mind they think that kind of shots is kind of skill because people more like to think they are good at instinctively aiming but the fact is to make that kind of shots work you have to 100% sure one thing is your target will be where you aim for but most of time it's just the target didn't consistently moving because they think it's safe behind object instead of it's you knew the target will move to where at the moment you release the shot, besides that kind of shots require the game design base I don't see that in Ashes of Creation.
I don't know if it's blindly guessing if you know the range of the bow you are using. All it would take is the constant use of that bow to get used to it. For example, in destiny 2 there are grenade launchers. Now, these don't really have a projectile motion arc but the way they work is you can bounce them off objects. Initially, you would think people are just randomly firing and hoping to get a hit and some people do use them like that. However, there are people like me who get accustomed to those weapons by using and testing them. There are players who can accurately determine where and how to bounce these GL projectiles so they can hit their targets. It's not far off to imagine people practicing this skill by initially testing how long the bow has to be drawn and how high to point the bow to get it to fall where they want. That's just what players like that including myself like to do. The more control we have over our weapons the better. That level of control also gives us more possibilities to work with and ways to engage a target. This point you made right here "in most people's minds they think that kind of shot is kind of skill because people more like to think they are good at instinctively aiming but the fact is to make that kind of shot work you have to 100% sure one thing is your target will be where you aim" is exactly why people like it. The fact that probability speaking you are likely to miss if not spot on is the rush of skill shots. It's the bragging rights to be a part of the few players who can successfully hit your target when that situation arrives. The fact that in Destiny 2 I can accurately shoot my GL hitting multiple flat surfaces before successfully hitting my target who is hiding behind a wall is why weapons like that are used in that game. It's not a skill that's supposed to be easy it is something that you have to master as a player. It's another carrot on a stick to keep some plays interested in the game purely for them to say they are better than other archers without devs having to add a literal reward to it. That is something that I do see behind ashes purely from a game engine mechanic, an in-game physics mechanic, and adding more depth to the gameplay besides everyone just utilizing tab target from a top-down view.
I think you should try MO2. It has the exact archery physics you’re describing, and I think you may also see the other side of the coin better - particularly from an MMO perspective.
Well, I don't like these ideas because it's not really things or tricks most players able to manage to do in most of fights, so to me that level of projectile behave and gravity game design is meaningless and not fun, yeah maybe for 5~10% will consider it's fun but if a game mainly serve the most top 10~20% skillful players first that game can easily become a shit to be honest if I may.
A simple example, if you want to able to shoot arrows pass through castle/city wall etc in sieges or city wars simply make ranger's ultimate skill or siege skill able to shoot that far as a ground target AOE skill.
I just don't understand why people so hunger to make games so difficult and so hard to enter.
And few more things, that bow length don't really make draw time different mainly the draw feeling and the torque changing while drawing back, but the bow type and design and the brace height and the safe max draw length and how much over draw you want will effect the draw time when compare short medium long bows, and most long bow user don't draw over 29 inches(I assume when you guys say long bow means British long bow, if not long bow most have 30~34 max draw, but it's doesn't means short and medium bow can't shot far than long bow.) as I know because not every bow was designed to like the further you draw back the more power get from the bow, and average archer able to hit the target in 50 meters at least I can and I won't consider I am a good archer, last thing archer can shoot while running even it's a long bow.
I never said it was supposed to be something everyone can do. It's supposed to be something that skilled players can do. I'm talking about all basic range action mode attacks can use projectile motion/arcs. Since they said it's a projectile-based system, they can make projectile motion/arc. The arc doesn't have to be a visible indicator/visual line in-game. Make it so only good players can capitalize on it while adding a limit to how far arrows and other projectiles can go before hitting the ground. Longbows(like the kind that was shown in the range video) should have a longer draw time if you want a full draw. My idea is longbows will have a larger range than short bows. However, when you draw the bow by pressing the LMB, the longer you hold it the farther your arrow goes. Of course, there will be a max limit to how far your arrows can go. While the trade-off for a fully drawn longbow is that your character gets rooted to the ground. So you can still click the LMB button for a fast short-range draw but for every second you hold it your character gets a slow effect up to the point the longbow is fully drawn and the character is rooted and can't move until that shot is fired. This will also add a skill shot for archers who want to be really good and test their shots. This also means long bows become valuable and add a chase for a good longbow drop or for crafters to build. Short bows will also be useful because they will have a faster fire rate than longbows. Tab players can utilize short bows to get more shots fired at action combat players who will need a longer draw time to pull off such a skill shot. The risk/reward for short bows would be short range for a higher rate of fire than longbows. The risk/reward for longbows will be longer draw time for a larger range and a higher projectile motion/arc than the short bows. I guess short bow users can use the projectile motion/arc to do some skill shots just not at the same rand as longbows.
I guess what you saying is like player aiming higher instead of point at the target directly in order to gain more effective shoot range to able to hit a target is out of range, if I understand you wrong please correct me.
Well, I wrote a post in the feedback thread, I suggested they can make 3 different class bow type, short and medium and long, the short bow we saw in update still the same class we saw in update video which bow length is bow length under 50 inches and safe max draw length under 29 inches(but I don't like people always misunderstand that bow length is heavily relevant to effective shoot range, means I don't like the design make short bow range shorter than other bow type.), medium class include medium size bow which means bow length around 50-60 inches and long bow we saw in update video which bow length is around 65~75 inches then both simplified to same safe max draw length range at around 30~34 inches, long class is Japanese bow yumi that bow length around 83~96 inches and draw length is around 31 to over 41 inches and max safe draw length is depends on the materials and design of the bow but as I know the most are over 34 inches, and the reason I hope they add yumi is when I saw the snipe skill is shoot with one knee down and yumi is the bow I knew was design to able to shoot with one knee down and don't need to worry about hurt the bow and fit Ren’kai’s part of asia culture taste, and I'd like to see for example short and medium bow using snipe will be standing and only yumi able to be one knee down and have further benefit such as the ranged attack from opponent will have more chance to miss or less chance to crit while using snipe with yumi because the target is smaller, it create kind of synergies between weapon skills and archetype skills to further develop ranged weapon environment and diversity.(And I am consider about something about sacrifice the bow endurance to over draw the bow to gain more damage or more crit chance etc, but I don't know I think it can be fun.)
In my mind it will be like short bow focus on mobility, medium bow start to have charge mechanic to have more play style than short bow, long bow yumi is more like a sniper play style with able to sacrifice more mobility to have further charge power and to max out damage and able to take out the opponent with minimum shots like a sniper play style.
So, I don't like the way bring too much action element or say not for average player skill level elements in MMORPG becuase it's a MMORPG, MMORPG should be character build based instead of skill level based, the day I start follow Ashes of Creation and I found out that Intrepid once said the design about risk vs reward is everywhere in Ashes of Creation include tab vs action means action mode less effect by RNG and I think it's a very very bad idea, if the idea stay at action oriented skills are less effect by RNG than target oriented skills I will happy to accept it, but it's not, and it's a very bad idea to have while making a game that owner keep saying it's not for everyone because that idea is heavily and deeply divide players by skill level and I don't really know any MMORPG or online game can live well and happy and make money to further develop next expansion and don't drop large player base in 1 years with bad idea like that will heavily divide players by skill level, I just don't know how MMORPG can survive without average or say not skillful player base.
Yes, you got the point I was trying to make. However, I don't know why we can't have both skill base action mechanics that rely on people's ability to use basic weapons and regular MMORPG class skills ability. If someone can use a bows basic attack to make a skill shot there is nothing wrong with that and it doesn't take away class ability skills. It also doesn't mean that the game will automatically turn into a basic weapon attack game. It just adds another level of depth to the combat.
Maybe the reason I able to come up with are not things you will care, in my experience this level of design will highly divide players to who can do the trick shot with basic weapon attack consistently that developers aim for imply in game and who can't, it can or say mostly will become you are allowed by people play with you to use the weapon by able to do the tricks, if you can't do the tricks and they are not your friends in the end they won't play with you or you stop use that weapon, which means people will take the trick shot as a baseline without forgiveness unconsciously in most of situations.
I not saying that tricks shouldn't exist, what I trying to say is that people usually misunderstand things and the trick shot you mentioned is build in basic attack and it's not a trick developed by players through playing experience or experiment, it's consciously designed by developers in that basic level foundation and it can or say will misguide players that is the baseline to tell you are average or unskillful, for example:
https://youtu.be/oWNt_8xcOZw?t=858
three ticks in one 16 seconds fight, consider the era we don't really know the shit about how skills work, none of these will be consider as a baseline in that time, but in this day I won't consider the back jump trick is the baseline to tell a player is average or unskillful at least, this is what I trying to say.
Yes but that's the point. Not everyone should be able to successfully do the trick, especially not without practice. That's what a skill ceiling is. A majority of good players are good because they practice. They didn't just start playing the game and were godly at it. That's why there are training games on steam like kovaak which helps with aim. Also, keep in mind that class skills will still do more damage than basic ranged weapon attacks. This is no different than good players getting good gears and weapons from open-world bosses and dungeons/raids because they are good at the game.
But it shouldn't be designed by developer on purpose at that level, like in GW2 you can put weapon back to sheath to cancel skills so you don't have to waste skill/dodge on skill cancelling or cancel the animation to get a little bit more advantage dps I don't know it's intentional or not but they change a little bit about the trick so I guess it was not what they plan to do but they didn't remove it because players don't want they to remove it and the trick is not a trick difficult to do but if you can time every single time you can get dome advantage or comeback but it's not something that huge to let you can crush your opponent or hardly win, but the trick shot you mentioned is, the trick shot is just like thief's sword 2 skill was suppose to teleport to target when press once then teleport back to where you were when press it again in few seconds, but some players found out that sword 2 skill can infinity teleport forwards the target if they can manage to the trick every time so in a period of time you can see quite a lot thief doing that to killing and trolling people and then Anet fixed it because it's not how it should be and it's broken, the trick shot you mentioned is not at that broken level but it's not a good design at least to me, it's only create illusion and false cognition(I don't know the words I choose are right but it's what my translator told me).
The difference between what I want and that is its initial and there's no trick behind it. It will all be based on the type of bo and how far their range is. There is no trick you can use to accurately shoot your opponents that are hiding behind cover or for you to shoot them while you are behind cover. It will just come down to raw skills and practice. I doubt the soft lock aim assist/homing that players get will make a difference if you didn't lock on to a target but shot up in the sky at an angle where the arrow will fall back down and hit them. It will rely purely on skills for the arrow or any other range projectile to hit its target from such an angle.
Well, maybe it's because my examples are bad, what I want to say is that kind of skill is base on something too basic(I can't find the right word I just use basic instead) I really don't think it's good or say healthy, what you want will have to bring more reality into game world but like I said before bow and arrow and archery are not like what you think, and design game base on half way realistic and deformed concept/knowledge is not good, that I think it’s need base on the reality to make a good game and balance between fun and real because players need the realistic aspect to feel things look right but too real will kill the fun, so I always try to give my opinions to devs and others base on my experience and knowledge in real life and try my best to transform what's too real and not fun to be fun but still can feel it's real.
Are you saying gravity/projectile motion isn't based on reality? It's basic enough for every class to be able to use it. What you don't want are special technics that are only accessible in one class. For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
No, not saying that.
I'm saying the reality you want bring into game doesn't help game to be fun, like I said I do archery and I can tell you I don't shoot target behind object like you mentioned, if I want to kill a guy behind a wall I simply shoot bunch of trick arrows contents oil etc then a fire arrow, I don't even want to blind guess where is he, and if the guy is behind a pillar and I can totally predict his position and distance I able to shoot turning arrows with poison on arrowheads to kill him, and all these are faster way to do what you want to do but maybe not the way you want.
update:
About
For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
this we call it class identity in MMORPGs, anyone can use any weapon doesn't mean you will able to reach the max potential of the weapon with your class for example a warrior use a wand, do you think it's reasonable that a warrior can max out the potential of wand?
If it's that what I said make you misunderstand I'm sorry, English is not my native language.
ok, I see your point but how often are you in a position where you have to shoot a target behind cover because that target is actively shooting back at you or coming at you with the intention to kill?
Well, I can't really answer your question because I am not living in a country is in war but what I can tell you is that my best record is able to shoot 2 arrows in 1 second, so if the opponent shoot faster and accurate than me I have more chance will die, but if I'm faster and accurate than him, he will probably die first, because if the situation is that he will shoot back I won't use those trick arrows what I said, I will study him if I feel he is a better archer than me, I will shoot trick arrows content pepper powder and chili powder to him to maximize my win rate once I sure he effect by the powder I think I have more chance to take him down.
Just watched a MO2 video. It looks nice. The whole thing I'm proposing is to add a little more wiggle room for range combat
I understand your intention, it just Ashes of Creation is not an action base game, if make bow action base mechanics means other weapon will have to change with it, then everything go back to combat revamp and enter death loop.
I'm not trying to make the game action based. It's a hybrid combat system. I want all range weapons and range abilities to have projectile motion. I plan on being a mage and if I fast fire, especially in the action mode of hybrid, it should follow a projectile motion. It's dumb for a game with graphics like ashes and where the gameplay isn't top down to not have projectile motion. That's the basics of using a projectile-based system.
You realize that the aiming in "use reticle to aim to do projectile motion" is already a heavy action element, right?
that's what I wanted to clearify. If its already going to bee in game then I have no problem with thee combat system
Yeah what we can see in update video is in action mode you can shoot arrows without target but I can't see arrow flying so I can't sure anything about projectile motion but I hope they take the draw length and over draw to let player able to shoot far than normal draw length which means the longer you charge the far you can shoot instead of take projectile motion to make arrow fly further, timing the bow charge mechanic is a good enough action element to me.
I agree with you it's just when I say projectile motion I'm not thinking about using it for arrows to fly farther but rather using it to hit someone hiding behind an object like a rock. I like things that add a little bit of vertical play and make people think about the best way to handle certain situations. This also adds an extra dynamic to sieges where the attack can shoot at the defenders on top of the wall within range of course.
Oh yes, I forgot that sorry, to that I just don't want ranged weapon to have that abilities to do such thing because MMORPG should be like a warrior is effective to against ranger, ranger is effective to against mage, mage is effective to against warrior, and situations like you mentioned I prefer to give certain class some abilities to deal with the situations, like if they just hide behind a ruin of a house without roof and the mages in my team can use meteor to push them out, or if they are in a house with roof maybe ranger will have some skills that shot a arrow in straight line but it will explode in the end of the line or hit the first object or player etc and cause a aoe dot/consistent damage like a cloud of poison etc, yeah these are what I prefer game design, because it's more forgive to players and make teamwork thinking and co-work effort more stand out and to feel the joy instead of base on player skill level to make the way out and yes it can be a joy from other perspectives but I don't really have much good experiences in such games use that game design philosophy for example like co-op pve/pvp game base on player skill level and those game work because it's base on divide players by skill level using game modes like LOL or APEX or Destiny 2 it's maybe okay because game mode is limited to 3~5 players in one team and system matching players in a roughly same skill level range but use that game design philosophy in a MMORPG it will lose player base in the end.
Yea but the cool part about Ashes is that weapons aren't locked behind classes and not everyone will be able to capitalize on them unless they practice. Which to me is no different than players who raid a lot and get higher stat gears. I don't think anyone would argue against giving good raiders better gears. Also, fighters do have a dodge/dash ability so I shouldn't really affect them any more than a normal archer. Just because you can shoot an arrow at an angle where it can go over a rock and fall back down due to gravity doesn't mean you can spam that in a rapid-fire manner. It will just be something the player can do occasionally depending on the situation where the opposing target is playing passively. If you really think about it having the ability to do such a skill shot is no different than a mage who can just cast a meteor. However, this will be something that is available to everyone who wants to run a bow giving them the ability to successfully do it once or twice every now and then but rare enough to the point where it only becomes a problem when playing against a really good player. I should mention what I want isn't a special ranger skill. It will just be something you can do with a bow depending on what type of bow it is. It won't be any more spamming than a normal longbow shot(which I want a little longer draw time). Where you have to hold the LMB to draw and hold the shot until the release of the LMB.
Umm, I really understand the joy you want to bring, it's like what bows capable to do in Splatoon 3 yes it's fun and it takes practices but it's still more like blind guess shots with luck(or say it’s base on your target usually forgot about those shots so they don’t think they need keep moving) at most of time to me despite maybe most of Splatoon player won't agree with me because in most people's mind they think that kind of shots is kind of skill because people more like to think they are good at instinctively aiming but the fact is to make that kind of shots work you have to 100% sure one thing is your target will be where you aim for but most of time it's just the target didn't consistently moving because they think it's safe behind object instead of it's you knew the target will move to where at the moment you release the shot, besides that kind of shots require the game design base I don't see that in Ashes of Creation.
I don't know if it's blindly guessing if you know the range of the bow you are using. All it would take is the constant use of that bow to get used to it. For example, in destiny 2 there are grenade launchers. Now, these don't really have a projectile motion arc but the way they work is you can bounce them off objects. Initially, you would think people are just randomly firing and hoping to get a hit and some people do use them like that. However, there are people like me who get accustomed to those weapons by using and testing them. There are players who can accurately determine where and how to bounce these GL projectiles so they can hit their targets. It's not far off to imagine people practicing this skill by initially testing how long the bow has to be drawn and how high to point the bow to get it to fall where they want. That's just what players like that including myself like to do. The more control we have over our weapons the better. That level of control also gives us more possibilities to work with and ways to engage a target. This point you made right here "in most people's minds they think that kind of shot is kind of skill because people more like to think they are good at instinctively aiming but the fact is to make that kind of shot work you have to 100% sure one thing is your target will be where you aim" is exactly why people like it. The fact that probability speaking you are likely to miss if not spot on is the rush of skill shots. It's the bragging rights to be a part of the few players who can successfully hit your target when that situation arrives. The fact that in Destiny 2 I can accurately shoot my GL hitting multiple flat surfaces before successfully hitting my target who is hiding behind a wall is why weapons like that are used in that game. It's not a skill that's supposed to be easy it is something that you have to master as a player. It's another carrot on a stick to keep some plays interested in the game purely for them to say they are better than other archers without devs having to add a literal reward to it. That is something that I do see behind ashes purely from a game engine mechanic, an in-game physics mechanic, and adding more depth to the gameplay besides everyone just utilizing tab target from a top-down view.
I think you misunderstand me, what I mean blind guessing is not about learn to perform curved shot are base on blind guess, what I mean the shot is basic blind guessing is because most of the time when the shot made to hit a consistently moving target is not base on player knew the target will 100% there because the target is behind a wall and player just can't see through the wall and 100% knew where the target at or will be, instead most of time it's the target happen to be the place the shot will land on it or just the target didn't move and my point is yes people think it feels good and make them feel they are good and that is what I think not good and not healthy because it heavily divide or say tears player base apart in many ways and from different perspectives, it's a illusion that poison the player base consciousness make player think luck is a skill instead of game knowledge and this is what I don't want to see.
I don't play Destiny 2 so I can't say anything base on it, but I do archery what I can say is if I only able to use curved shot that arrow goes up then down and try to land arrows on a target consistently moving and hide behind a wall and have nothing to predict where is it, I will say the hit rate is infinity near 0, even the arrow land on the target I won't think it's because of skill it's just luck but some people think it's skill.
In Splatoon 3 I able to curved shot to take down opponent behind object is mostly because I knew the opponent won't able to dodge it base on study the opponent in the whole time or the situation makes the opponent not able to dodge my shot such as my teammates pinned the opponent there, other situations I knew those are lucky shot and blind guessing so there is no me involve that shot.
I think you should try MO2. It has the exact archery physics you’re describing, and I think you may also see the other side of the coin better - particularly from an MMO perspective.
Well, I don't like these ideas because it's not really things or tricks most players able to manage to do in most of fights, so to me that level of projectile behave and gravity game design is meaningless and not fun, yeah maybe for 5~10% will consider it's fun but if a game mainly serve the most top 10~20% skillful players first that game can easily become a shit to be honest if I may.
A simple example, if you want to able to shoot arrows pass through castle/city wall etc in sieges or city wars simply make ranger's ultimate skill or siege skill able to shoot that far as a ground target AOE skill.
I just don't understand why people so hunger to make games so difficult and so hard to enter.
And few more things, that bow length don't really make draw time different mainly the draw feeling and the torque changing while drawing back, but the bow type and design and the brace height and the safe max draw length and how much over draw you want will effect the draw time when compare short medium long bows, and most long bow user don't draw over 29 inches(I assume when you guys say long bow means British long bow, if not long bow most have 30~34 max draw, but it's doesn't means short and medium bow can't shot far than long bow.) as I know because not every bow was designed to like the further you draw back the more power get from the bow, and average archer able to hit the target in 50 meters at least I can and I won't consider I am a good archer, last thing archer can shoot while running even it's a long bow.
I never said it was supposed to be something everyone can do. It's supposed to be something that skilled players can do. I'm talking about all basic range action mode attacks can use projectile motion/arcs. Since they said it's a projectile-based system, they can make projectile motion/arc. The arc doesn't have to be a visible indicator/visual line in-game. Make it so only good players can capitalize on it while adding a limit to how far arrows and other projectiles can go before hitting the ground. Longbows(like the kind that was shown in the range video) should have a longer draw time if you want a full draw. My idea is longbows will have a larger range than short bows. However, when you draw the bow by pressing the LMB, the longer you hold it the farther your arrow goes. Of course, there will be a max limit to how far your arrows can go. While the trade-off for a fully drawn longbow is that your character gets rooted to the ground. So you can still click the LMB button for a fast short-range draw but for every second you hold it your character gets a slow effect up to the point the longbow is fully drawn and the character is rooted and can't move until that shot is fired. This will also add a skill shot for archers who want to be really good and test their shots. This also means long bows become valuable and add a chase for a good longbow drop or for crafters to build. Short bows will also be useful because they will have a faster fire rate than longbows. Tab players can utilize short bows to get more shots fired at action combat players who will need a longer draw time to pull off such a skill shot. The risk/reward for short bows would be short range for a higher rate of fire than longbows. The risk/reward for longbows will be longer draw time for a larger range and a higher projectile motion/arc than the short bows. I guess short bow users can use the projectile motion/arc to do some skill shots just not at the same rand as longbows.
I guess what you saying is like player aiming higher instead of point at the target directly in order to gain more effective shoot range to able to hit a target is out of range, if I understand you wrong please correct me.
Well, I wrote a post in the feedback thread, I suggested they can make 3 different class bow type, short and medium and long, the short bow we saw in update still the same class we saw in update video which bow length is bow length under 50 inches and safe max draw length under 29 inches(but I don't like people always misunderstand that bow length is heavily relevant to effective shoot range, means I don't like the design make short bow range shorter than other bow type.), medium class include medium size bow which means bow length around 50-60 inches and long bow we saw in update video which bow length is around 65~75 inches then both simplified to same safe max draw length range at around 30~34 inches, long class is Japanese bow yumi that bow length around 83~96 inches and draw length is around 31 to over 41 inches and max safe draw length is depends on the materials and design of the bow but as I know the most are over 34 inches, and the reason I hope they add yumi is when I saw the snipe skill is shoot with one knee down and yumi is the bow I knew was design to able to shoot with one knee down and don't need to worry about hurt the bow and fit Ren’kai’s part of asia culture taste, and I'd like to see for example short and medium bow using snipe will be standing and only yumi able to be one knee down and have further benefit such as the ranged attack from opponent will have more chance to miss or less chance to crit while using snipe with yumi because the target is smaller, it create kind of synergies between weapon skills and archetype skills to further develop ranged weapon environment and diversity.(And I am consider about something about sacrifice the bow endurance to over draw the bow to gain more damage or more crit chance etc, but I don't know I think it can be fun.)
In my mind it will be like short bow focus on mobility, medium bow start to have charge mechanic to have more play style than short bow, long bow yumi is more like a sniper play style with able to sacrifice more mobility to have further charge power and to max out damage and able to take out the opponent with minimum shots like a sniper play style.
So, I don't like the way bring too much action element or say not for average player skill level elements in MMORPG becuase it's a MMORPG, MMORPG should be character build based instead of skill level based, the day I start follow Ashes of Creation and I found out that Intrepid once said the design about risk vs reward is everywhere in Ashes of Creation include tab vs action means action mode less effect by RNG and I think it's a very very bad idea, if the idea stay at action oriented skills are less effect by RNG than target oriented skills I will happy to accept it, but it's not, and it's a very bad idea to have while making a game that owner keep saying it's not for everyone because that idea is heavily and deeply divide players by skill level and I don't really know any MMORPG or online game can live well and happy and make money to further develop next expansion and don't drop large player base in 1 years with bad idea like that will heavily divide players by skill level, I just don't know how MMORPG can survive without average or say not skillful player base.
Yes, you got the point I was trying to make. However, I don't know why we can't have both skill base action mechanics that rely on people's ability to use basic weapons and regular MMORPG class skills ability. If someone can use a bows basic attack to make a skill shot there is nothing wrong with that and it doesn't take away class ability skills. It also doesn't mean that the game will automatically turn into a basic weapon attack game. It just adds another level of depth to the combat.
Maybe the reason I able to come up with are not things you will care, in my experience this level of design will highly divide players to who can do the trick shot with basic weapon attack consistently that developers aim for imply in game and who can't, it can or say mostly will become you are allowed by people play with you to use the weapon by able to do the tricks, if you can't do the tricks and they are not your friends in the end they won't play with you or you stop use that weapon, which means people will take the trick shot as a baseline without forgiveness unconsciously in most of situations.
I not saying that tricks shouldn't exist, what I trying to say is that people usually misunderstand things and the trick shot you mentioned is build in basic attack and it's not a trick developed by players through playing experience or experiment, it's consciously designed by developers in that basic level foundation and it can or say will misguide players that is the baseline to tell you are average or unskillful, for example:
https://youtu.be/oWNt_8xcOZw?t=858
three ticks in one 16 seconds fight, consider the era we don't really know the shit about how skills work, none of these will be consider as a baseline in that time, but in this day I won't consider the back jump trick is the baseline to tell a player is average or unskillful at least, this is what I trying to say.
Yes but that's the point. Not everyone should be able to successfully do the trick, especially not without practice. That's what a skill ceiling is. A majority of good players are good because they practice. They didn't just start playing the game and were godly at it. That's why there are training games on steam like kovaak which helps with aim. Also, keep in mind that class skills will still do more damage than basic ranged weapon attacks. This is no different than good players getting good gears and weapons from open-world bosses and dungeons/raids because they are good at the game.
But it shouldn't be designed by developer on purpose at that level, like in GW2 you can put weapon back to sheath to cancel skills so you don't have to waste skill/dodge on skill cancelling or cancel the animation to get a little bit more advantage dps I don't know it's intentional or not but they change a little bit about the trick so I guess it was not what they plan to do but they didn't remove it because players don't want they to remove it and the trick is not a trick difficult to do but if you can time every single time you can get dome advantage or comeback but it's not something that huge to let you can crush your opponent or hardly win, but the trick shot you mentioned is, the trick shot is just like thief's sword 2 skill was suppose to teleport to target when press once then teleport back to where you were when press it again in few seconds, but some players found out that sword 2 skill can infinity teleport forwards the target if they can manage to the trick every time so in a period of time you can see quite a lot thief doing that to killing and trolling people and then Anet fixed it because it's not how it should be and it's broken, the trick shot you mentioned is not at that broken level but it's not a good design at least to me, it's only create illusion and false cognition(I don't know the words I choose are right but it's what my translator told me).
The difference between what I want and that is its initial and there's no trick behind it. It will all be based on the type of bo and how far their range is. There is no trick you can use to accurately shoot your opponents that are hiding behind cover or for you to shoot them while you are behind cover. It will just come down to raw skills and practice. I doubt the soft lock aim assist/homing that players get will make a difference if you didn't lock on to a target but shot up in the sky at an angle where the arrow will fall back down and hit them. It will rely purely on skills for the arrow or any other range projectile to hit its target from such an angle.
Well, maybe it's because my examples are bad, what I want to say is that kind of skill is base on something too basic(I can't find the right word I just use basic instead) I really don't think it's good or say healthy, what you want will have to bring more reality into game world but like I said before bow and arrow and archery are not like what you think, and design game base on half way realistic and deformed concept/knowledge is not good, that I think it’s need base on the reality to make a good game and balance between fun and real because players need the realistic aspect to feel things look right but too real will kill the fun, so I always try to give my opinions to devs and others base on my experience and knowledge in real life and try my best to transform what's too real and not fun to be fun but still can feel it's real.
Are you saying gravity/projectile motion isn't based on reality? It's basic enough for every class to be able to use it. What you don't want are special technics that are only accessible in one class. For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
No, not saying that.
I'm saying the reality you want bring into game doesn't help game to be fun, like I said I do archery and I can tell you I don't shoot target behind object like you mentioned, if I want to kill a guy behind a wall I simply shoot bunch of trick arrows contents oil etc then a fire arrow, I don't even want to blind guess where is he, and if the guy is behind a pillar and I can totally predict his position and distance I able to shoot turning arrows with poison on arrowheads to kill him, and all these are faster way to do what you want to do but maybe not the way you want.
update:
About
For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
this we call it class identity in MMORPGs, anyone can use any weapon doesn't mean you will able to reach the max potential of the weapon with your class for example a warrior use a wand, do you think it's reasonable that a warrior can max out the potential of wand?
If it's that what I said make you misunderstand I'm sorry, English is not my native language.
ok, I see your point but how often are you in a position where you have to shoot a target behind cover because that target is actively shooting back at you or coming at you with the intention to kill?
Well, I can't really answer your question because I am not living in a country is in war but what I can tell you is that my best record is able to shoot 2 arrows in 1 second, so if the opponent shoot faster and accurate than me I have more chance will die, but if I'm faster and accurate than him, he will probably die first, because if the situation is that he will shoot back I won't use those trick arrows what I said, I will study him if I feel he is a better archer than me, I will shoot trick arrows content pepper powder and chili powder to him to maximize my win rate once I sure he effect by the powder I think I have more chance to take him down.
Just watched a MO2 video. It looks nice. The whole thing I'm proposing is to add a little more wiggle room for range combat
I understand your intention, it just Ashes of Creation is not an action base game, if make bow action base mechanics means other weapon will have to change with it, then everything go back to combat revamp and enter death loop.
I'm not trying to make the game action based. It's a hybrid combat system. I want all range weapons and range abilities to have projectile motion. I plan on being a mage and if I fast fire, especially in the action mode of hybrid, it should follow a projectile motion. It's dumb for a game with graphics like ashes and where the gameplay isn't top down to not have projectile motion. That's the basics of using a projectile-based system.
You realize that the aiming in "use reticle to aim to do projectile motion" is already a heavy action element, right?
that's what I wanted to clearify. If its already going to bee in game then I have no problem with thee combat system
Yeah what we can see in update video is in action mode you can shoot arrows without target but I can't see arrow flying so I can't sure anything about projectile motion but I hope they take the draw length and over draw to let player able to shoot far than normal draw length which means the longer you charge the far you can shoot instead of take projectile motion to make arrow fly further, timing the bow charge mechanic is a good enough action element to me.
I agree with you it's just when I say projectile motion I'm not thinking about using it for arrows to fly farther but rather using it to hit someone hiding behind an object like a rock. I like things that add a little bit of vertical play and make people think about the best way to handle certain situations. This also adds an extra dynamic to sieges where the attack can shoot at the defenders on top of the wall within range of course.
Oh yes, I forgot that sorry, to that I just don't want ranged weapon to have that abilities to do such thing because MMORPG should be like a warrior is effective to against ranger, ranger is effective to against mage, mage is effective to against warrior, and situations like you mentioned I prefer to give certain class some abilities to deal with the situations, like if they just hide behind a ruin of a house without roof and the mages in my team can use meteor to push them out, or if they are in a house with roof maybe ranger will have some skills that shot a arrow in straight line but it will explode in the end of the line or hit the first object or player etc and cause a aoe dot/consistent damage like a cloud of poison etc, yeah these are what I prefer game design, because it's more forgive to players and make teamwork thinking and co-work effort more stand out and to feel the joy instead of base on player skill level to make the way out and yes it can be a joy from other perspectives but I don't really have much good experiences in such games use that game design philosophy for example like co-op pve/pvp game base on player skill level and those game work because it's base on divide players by skill level using game modes like LOL or APEX or Destiny 2 it's maybe okay because game mode is limited to 3~5 players in one team and system matching players in a roughly same skill level range but use that game design philosophy in a MMORPG it will lose player base in the end.
Yea but the cool part about Ashes is that weapons aren't locked behind classes and not everyone will be able to capitalize on them unless they practice. Which to me is no different than players who raid a lot and get higher stat gears. I don't think anyone would argue against giving good raiders better gears. Also, fighters do have a dodge/dash ability so I shouldn't really affect them any more than a normal archer. Just because you can shoot an arrow at an angle where it can go over a rock and fall back down due to gravity doesn't mean you can spam that in a rapid-fire manner. It will just be something the player can do occasionally depending on the situation where the opposing target is playing passively. If you really think about it having the ability to do such a skill shot is no different than a mage who can just cast a meteor. However, this will be something that is available to everyone who wants to run a bow giving them the ability to successfully do it once or twice every now and then but rare enough to the point where it only becomes a problem when playing against a really good player. I should mention what I want isn't a special ranger skill. It will just be something you can do with a bow depending on what type of bow it is. It won't be any more spamming than a normal longbow shot(which I want a little longer draw time). Where you have to hold the LMB to draw and hold the shot until the release of the LMB.
Umm, I really understand the joy you want to bring, it's like what bows capable to do in Splatoon 3 yes it's fun and it takes practices but it's still more like blind guess shots with luck(or say it’s base on your target usually forgot about those shots so they don’t think they need keep moving) at most of time to me despite maybe most of Splatoon player won't agree with me because in most people's mind they think that kind of shots is kind of skill because people more like to think they are good at instinctively aiming but the fact is to make that kind of shots work you have to 100% sure one thing is your target will be where you aim for but most of time it's just the target didn't consistently moving because they think it's safe behind object instead of it's you knew the target will move to where at the moment you release the shot, besides that kind of shots require the game design base I don't see that in Ashes of Creation.
I don't know if it's blindly guessing if you know the range of the bow you are using. All it would take is the constant use of that bow to get used to it. For example, in destiny 2 there are grenade launchers. Now, these don't really have a projectile motion arc but the way they work is you can bounce them off objects. Initially, you would think people are just randomly firing and hoping to get a hit and some people do use them like that. However, there are people like me who get accustomed to those weapons by using and testing them. There are players who can accurately determine where and how to bounce these GL projectiles so they can hit their targets. It's not far off to imagine people practicing this skill by initially testing how long the bow has to be drawn and how high to point the bow to get it to fall where they want. That's just what players like that including myself like to do. The more control we have over our weapons the better. That level of control also gives us more possibilities to work with and ways to engage a target. This point you made right here "in most people's minds they think that kind of shot is kind of skill because people more like to think they are good at instinctively aiming but the fact is to make that kind of shot work you have to 100% sure one thing is your target will be where you aim" is exactly why people like it. The fact that probability speaking you are likely to miss if not spot on is the rush of skill shots. It's the bragging rights to be a part of the few players who can successfully hit your target when that situation arrives. The fact that in Destiny 2 I can accurately shoot my GL hitting multiple flat surfaces before successfully hitting my target who is hiding behind a wall is why weapons like that are used in that game. It's not a skill that's supposed to be easy it is something that you have to master as a player. It's another carrot on a stick to keep some plays interested in the game purely for them to say they are better than other archers without devs having to add a literal reward to it. That is something that I do see behind ashes purely from a game engine mechanic, an in-game physics mechanic, and adding more depth to the gameplay besides everyone just utilizing tab target from a top-down view.
I think you misunderstand me, what I mean blind guessing is not about learn to perform curved shot are base on blind guess, what I mean the shot is basic blind guessing is because most of the time when the shot made to hit a consistently moving target is not base on player knew the target will 100% there because the target is behind a wall and player just can't see through the wall and 100% knew where the target at or will be, instead most of time it's the target happen to be the place the shot will land on it or just the target didn't move and my point is yes people think it feels good and make them feel they are good and that is what I think not good and not healthy because it heavily divide or say tears player base apart in many ways and from different perspectives, it's a illusion that poison the player base consciousness make player think luck is a skill instead of game knowledge and this is what I don't want to see.
I don't play Destiny 2 so I can't say anything base on it, but I do archery what I can say is if I only able to use curved shot that arrow goes up then down and try to land arrows on a target consistently moving and hide behind a wall and have nothing to predict where is it, I will say the hit rate is infinity near 0, even the arrow land on the target I won't think it's because of skill it's just luck but some people think it's skill.
In Splatoon 3 I able to curved shot to take down opponent behind object is mostly because I knew the opponent won't able to dodge it base on study the opponent in the whole time or the situation makes the opponent not able to dodge my shot such as my teammates pinned the opponent there, other situations I knew those are lucky shot and blind guessing so there is no me involve that shot.
oh ok. yeah, that was a misunderstanding on my part. I get your point now.
I think you should try MO2. It has the exact archery physics you’re describing, and I think you may also see the other side of the coin better - particularly from an MMO perspective.
Comments
I guess it's because the reality they implement into game make bow useless while facing shield block, and bow lack player agency to make more trick shots.
↓Good youtube channel to learn things about creating games.↓
Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games:
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Not sure if that’s your experience. Certainly wasn’t mine.
The issue with archery for me was that you either needed to set a perfect ambush on foot and be sneaky AF. Or you needed to balance your archery skill/power with riding when melee inevitably closed distance on you with a two-hander, heavy armor, and mounted.
Good game until their server performance made it unplayable, but ranged was a fun challenge.
No, not saying that.
I'm saying the reality you want bring into game doesn't help game to be fun, like I said I do archery and I can tell you I don't shoot target behind object like you mentioned, if I want to kill a guy behind a wall I simply shoot bunch of trick arrows contents oil etc then a fire arrow, I don't even want to blind guess where is he, and if the guy is behind a pillar and I can totally predict his position and distance I able to shoot turning arrows with poison on arrowheads to kill him, and all these are faster way to do what you want to do but maybe not the way you want.
update:
About
this we call it class identity in MMORPGs, anyone can use any weapon doesn't mean you will able to reach the max potential of the weapon with your class for example a warrior use a wand, do you think it's reasonable that a warrior can max out the potential of wand?
If it's that what I said make you misunderstand I'm sorry, English is not my native language.
↓Good youtube channel to learn things about creating games.↓
Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1DvRY5PyHHt3KN9ghunuw
I never played it before but I watched some videos just now, I won't use bow and arrows in MO2, it's against what I know about archery. XD
But the sword fight remind me a game called Chivalry 2(?) I don't play game like that but it's fun to watch.
↓Good youtube channel to learn things about creating games.↓
Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1DvRY5PyHHt3KN9ghunuw
The more unnecessary components you put in for the player to deal with the more annoying and aggravating interacting with that system will be. Especially in combat, and even more so in PvP, and one of the big selling points is the massive Siege system that will be in place eventually.
ok, I see your point but how often are you in a position where you have to shoot a target behind cover because that target is actively shooting back at you or coming at you with the intention to kill?
What I can say is that I have had to shoot a target from behind cover in a game. It happens when you're facing someone who is slightly better than you. Sometimes facing them on a fair playing field puts you at a disadvantage because they are faster than you.
Well, I can't really answer your question because I am not living in a country is in war but what I can tell you is that my best record is able to shoot 2 arrows in 1 second, so if the opponent shoot faster and accurate than me I have more chance will die, but if I'm faster and accurate than him, he will probably die first, because if the situation is that he will shoot back I won't use those trick arrows what I said, I will study him if I feel he is a better archer than me, I will shoot trick arrows content pepper powder and chili powder to him to maximize my win rate once I sure he effect by the powder I think I have more chance to take him down.
↓Good youtube channel to learn things about creating games.↓
Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1DvRY5PyHHt3KN9ghunuw
Just watched a MO2 video. It looks nice. The whole thing I'm proposing is to add a little more wiggle room for range combat
I understand your intention, it just Ashes of Creation is not an action base game, if make bow action base mechanics means other weapon will have to change with it, then everything go back to combat revamp and enter death loop.
↓Good youtube channel to learn things about creating games.↓
Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1DvRY5PyHHt3KN9ghunuw
I'm not trying to make the game action based. It's a hybrid combat system. I want all range weapons and range abilities to have projectile motion. I plan on being a mage and if I fast fire, especially in the action mode of hybrid, it should follow a projectile motion. It's dumb for a game with graphics like ashes and where the gameplay isn't top down to not have projectile motion. That's the basics of using a projectile-based system.
I guess i'll link it.
Cheats are an issue in SCUM according to reviews though HA
The more complicated the more difficult for the server to crack down on exploits.
You realize that the aiming in "use reticle to aim to do projectile motion" is already a heavy action element, right?
↓Good youtube channel to learn things about creating games.↓
Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1DvRY5PyHHt3KN9ghunuw
that's what I wanted to clearify. If its already going to bee in game then I have no problem with thee combat system
Yeah what we can see in update video is in action mode you can shoot arrows without target but I can't see arrow flying so I can't sure anything about projectile motion but I hope they take the draw length and over draw to let player able to shoot far than normal draw length which means the longer you charge the far you can shoot instead of take projectile motion to make arrow fly further, timing the bow charge mechanic is a good enough action element to me.
↓Good youtube channel to learn things about creating games.↓
Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1DvRY5PyHHt3KN9ghunuw
I agree with you it's just when I say projectile motion I'm not thinking about using it for arrows to fly farther but rather using it to hit someone hiding behind an object like a rock. I like things that add a little bit of vertical play and make people think about the best way to handle certain situations. This also adds an extra dynamic to sieges where the attack can shoot at the defenders on top of the wall within range of course.
Oh yes, I forgot that sorry, to that I just don't want ranged weapon to have that abilities to do such thing because MMORPG should be like a warrior is effective to against ranger, ranger is effective to against mage, mage is effective to against warrior, and situations like you mentioned I prefer to give certain class some abilities to deal with the situations, like if they just hide behind a ruin of a house without roof and the mages in my team can use meteor to push them out, or if they are in a house with roof maybe ranger will have some skills that shot a arrow in straight line but it will explode in the end of the line or hit the first object or player etc and cause a aoe dot/consistent damage like a cloud of poison etc, yeah these are what I prefer game design, because it's more forgive to players and make teamwork thinking and co-work effort more stand out and to feel the joy instead of base on player skill level to make the way out and yes it can be a joy from other perspectives but I don't really have much good experiences in such games use that game design philosophy for example like co-op pve/pvp game base on player skill level and those game work because it's base on divide players by skill level using game modes like LOL or APEX or Destiny 2 it's maybe okay because game mode is limited to 3~5 players in one team and system matching players in a roughly same skill level range but use that game design philosophy in a MMORPG it will lose player base in the end.
↓Good youtube channel to learn things about creating games.↓
Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1DvRY5PyHHt3KN9ghunuw
Yea but the cool part about Ashes is that weapons aren't locked behind classes and not everyone will be able to capitalize on them unless they practice. Which to me is no different than players who raid a lot and get higher stat gears. I don't think anyone would argue against giving good raiders better gears. Also, fighters do have a dodge/dash ability so I shouldn't really affect them any more than a normal archer. Just because you can shoot an arrow at an angle where it can go over a rock and fall back down due to gravity doesn't mean you can spam that in a rapid-fire manner. It will just be something the player can do occasionally depending on the situation where the opposing target is playing passively. If you really think about it having the ability to do such a skill shot is no different than a mage who can just cast a meteor. However, this will be something that is available to everyone who wants to run a bow giving them the ability to successfully do it once or twice every now and then but rare enough to the point where it only becomes a problem when playing against a really good player. I should mention what I want isn't a special ranger skill. It will just be something you can do with a bow depending on what type of bow it is. It won't be any more spamming than a normal longbow shot(which I want a little longer draw time). Where you have to hold the LMB to draw and hold the shot until the release of the LMB.
Umm, I really understand the joy you want to bring, it's like what bows capable to do in Splatoon 3 yes it's fun and it takes practices but it's still more like blind guess shots with luck(or say it’s base on your target usually forgot about those shots so they don’t think they need keep moving) at most of time to me despite maybe most of Splatoon player won't agree with me because in most people's mind they think that kind of shots is kind of skill because people more like to think they are good at instinctively aiming but the fact is to make that kind of shots work you have to 100% sure one thing is your target will be where you aim for but most of time it's just the target didn't consistently moving because they think it's safe behind object instead of it's you knew the target will move to where at the moment you release the shot, besides that kind of shots require the game design base I don't see that in Ashes of Creation.
↓Good youtube channel to learn things about creating games.↓
Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1DvRY5PyHHt3KN9ghunuw
I don't know if it's blindly guessing if you know the range of the bow you are using. All it would take is the constant use of that bow to get used to it. For example, in destiny 2 there are grenade launchers. Now, these don't really have a projectile motion arc but the way they work is you can bounce them off objects. Initially, you would think people are just randomly firing and hoping to get a hit and some people do use them like that. However, there are people like me who get accustomed to those weapons by using and testing them. There are players who can accurately determine where and how to bounce these GL projectiles so they can hit their targets. It's not far off to imagine people practicing this skill by initially testing how long the bow has to be drawn and how high to point the bow to get it to fall where they want. That's just what players like that including myself like to do. The more control we have over our weapons the better. That level of control also gives us more possibilities to work with and ways to engage a target. This point you made right here "in most people's minds they think that kind of shot is kind of skill because people more like to think they are good at instinctively aiming but the fact is to make that kind of shot work you have to 100% sure one thing is your target will be where you aim" is exactly why people like it. The fact that probability speaking you are likely to miss if not spot on is the rush of skill shots. It's the bragging rights to be a part of the few players who can successfully hit your target when that situation arrives. The fact that in Destiny 2 I can accurately shoot my GL hitting multiple flat surfaces before successfully hitting my target who is hiding behind a wall is why weapons like that are used in that game. It's not a skill that's supposed to be easy it is something that you have to master as a player. It's another carrot on a stick to keep some plays interested in the game purely for them to say they are better than other archers without devs having to add a literal reward to it. That is something that I do see behind ashes purely from a game engine mechanic, an in-game physics mechanic, and adding more depth to the gameplay besides everyone just utilizing tab target from a top-down view.
I think you misunderstand me, what I mean blind guessing is not about learn to perform curved shot are base on blind guess, what I mean the shot is basic blind guessing is because most of the time when the shot made to hit a consistently moving target is not base on player knew the target will 100% there because the target is behind a wall and player just can't see through the wall and 100% knew where the target at or will be, instead most of time it's the target happen to be the place the shot will land on it or just the target didn't move and my point is yes people think it feels good and make them feel they are good and that is what I think not good and not healthy because it heavily divide or say tears player base apart in many ways and from different perspectives, it's a illusion that poison the player base consciousness make player think luck is a skill instead of game knowledge and this is what I don't want to see.
I don't play Destiny 2 so I can't say anything base on it, but I do archery what I can say is if I only able to use curved shot that arrow goes up then down and try to land arrows on a target consistently moving and hide behind a wall and have nothing to predict where is it, I will say the hit rate is infinity near 0, even the arrow land on the target I won't think it's because of skill it's just luck but some people think it's skill.
In Splatoon 3 I able to curved shot to take down opponent behind object is mostly because I knew the opponent won't able to dodge it base on study the opponent in the whole time or the situation makes the opponent not able to dodge my shot such as my teammates pinned the opponent there, other situations I knew those are lucky shot and blind guessing so there is no me involve that shot.
↓Good youtube channel to learn things about creating games.↓
Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1DvRY5PyHHt3KN9ghunuw
Is it on steam?
oh ok. yeah, that was a misunderstanding on my part. I get your point now.
Maybe. Idk. JFGI.