Tab target is just sad

It looked similar to the old ranger video I saw years ago. People play WoW for its nostalgia not for its combat and ashes will not have any nostalgia to benefit from.

Find more posts tagged with

Staff

Comments

CROW3

I enjoyed MO2, and I’m glad Ashes is not heading in the same direction. If that means headshots are out, I’m ok with that.

When I need to scratch that 1-shot, head-splatter itch that’s what the M110 rifle is for in Insurgency: Sandstorm.

Vaknar

As a reminder, Ashes of Creation will feature a hybrid combat system. You can read more about that here, on the wiki! https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Combat_targeting

LordBlank

Dizz wrote: »

LordBlank wrote: »

Fantmx wrote: »

The MMO market is nowhere near dying out and combat is not the next step. The next steps are:

1) a living, breathing world that responds to player decisions in a way that doesn't take constant content creation by the developer and

2) Smart AI

MMO longevity has nothing to do with type of combat.

MMO isn't dying out because MMO just means massive multiplayer online. That means games like destiny 2 and any online game by nature is an MMO. What will die out are MMORPGs. What's the average age of wow players?

Ummm, online game or game need internet connection does not means it's a MMO, a MMO need to have the ability to allow massive multiplayer to play the exactly same content at the same time, destiny 2 don't have that, but GW2 and WOW and FF14 adn BDO etc have that kind of ability and contents, so yes MMO genre is dying.

Hi Sherlock, what do you think MMO stands for? I'll give you a hint, the O means online. "In 1974, Mazewar introduced the first graphic virtual world, providing a first-person perspective view of a maze in which players roamed around shooting at each other. It was also the first networked game, in which players at different computers could visually interact in a virtual space. The initial implementation was over a serial cable; however, when one of the authors began attending MIT in 1974, the game was enhanced so that it could be played across the ARPAnet, forerunner of the modern Internet."

Dizz1

LordBlank wrote: »

Dizz wrote: »

LordBlank wrote: »

Fantmx wrote: »

The MMO market is nowhere near dying out and combat is not the next step. The next steps are:

1) a living, breathing world that responds to player decisions in a way that doesn't take constant content creation by the developer and

2) Smart AI

MMO longevity has nothing to do with type of combat.

MMO isn't dying out because MMO just means massive multiplayer online. That means games like destiny 2 and any online game by nature is an MMO. What will die out are MMORPGs. What's the average age of wow players?

Ummm, online game or game need internet connection does not means it's a MMO, a MMO need to have the ability to allow massive multiplayer to play the exactly same content at the same time, destiny 2 don't have that, but GW2 and WOW and FF14 adn BDO etc have that kind of ability and contents, so yes MMO genre is dying.

Dizz wrote: »

LordBlank wrote: »

Fantmx wrote: »

The MMO market is nowhere near dying out and combat is not the next step. The next steps are:

1) a living, breathing world that responds to player decisions in a way that doesn't take constant content creation by the developer and

2) Smart AI

MMO longevity has nothing to do with type of combat.

MMO isn't dying out because MMO just means massive multiplayer online. That means games like destiny 2 and any online game by nature is an MMO. What will die out are MMORPGs. What's the average age of wow players?

Ummm, online game or game need internet connection does not means it's a MMO, a MMO need to have the ability to allow massive multiplayer to play the exactly same content at the same time, destiny 2 don't have that, but GW2 and WOW and FF14 adn BDO etc have that kind of ability and contents, so yes MMO genre is dying.

Hi Sherlock, what do you think MMO stands for? I'll give you a hint, the O means online. "In 1974, Mazewar introduced the first graphic virtual world, providing a first-person perspective view of a maze in which players roamed around shooting at each other. It was also the first networked game, in which players at different computers could visually interact in a virtual space. The initial implementation was over a serial cable; however, when one of the authors began attending MIT in 1974, the game was enhanced so that it could be played across the ARPAnet, forerunner of the modern Internet."

I can't tell why you call a person Sherlock you don't really know, I just assume that is just part of communication.

I don't really care about what game company or medias claim what the game type the game is, like lots of game use the term "open world" but what is that about and lots of the games advertised as "open world" but they just games don't always need switch to loading screen or scene transaction but while they start use the term "ope world" a lot mostly were trying to tell people "open world" game equal the game world feels free and alive like a real exist world, so to me the terms they used are mostly to advertising instead of try to tell people the essences of the game.

I don't play and didn't follow Destiny 2, I only followed some information about Destiny 1 in that time on game website or twitch stream, to me Destiny is more like a multiplayer online hakoniwa shooting game, which means the game essence is shooting game and use game modes like choose between PVP or PVE contents or choose the which PVE stage you want to play before you really enter the content you want to play and have ability to play with other few people online.

To answer your question do you consider that Diablo 2 or Diablo 3 and Lost Ark that they all are MMOs? I mean if I follow what you said to categorize those games will end up they are all MMOs and further I can say Elder Ring is a MMO or Monster Hunter is a MMO or Splatoon is a MMO or Valorant is a MMO or LOL is a MMO or even most mobile waifu gacha games are also MMOs, what you said about MMO you only focus on "multiplayer" plus "online" instead of the whole "massive multiplayer online" which means to meet your definition of MMO the game just need to be multiplayer online game that lots people play it instead of games have abilities to let massive numbers of players share exactly one same game world and playing together at the same time.

wintertide

People have a strange definition of action. As if action RPGs haven't been a thing for decades and how 99% of them do not have reticles, and most of the ones that do, don't act like first or third person shooters.

mozsta69

I was impressed with the hybrid system they showed. Super excited to see more. It was always sold as a hybrid system which meant there was always tab targeting, so not sure why the expectation of it not being a full blown FPS game.

BlackBrony

beretta7 wrote: »

It all just comes down to preference in the end but I have a REALLY hard time believing in this day and age that there are more gamers that just want to tab target and no challenge. I know there are still people that would prefer that monotony, but I think the only reason that these forums might slightly lean toward tab is that most FPS gamers etc don't even bother with MMORPG's due to garbage combat. When in fact MMORPG's are the best genre out there and they should be here. I'm one that will put up with the shitty combat experience to have the immersion but I also believe we should be moving this genre forward and I guess Steven wasn't the guy to do that unfortunately.

What is the challenge in a open world for combat like Dark Souls? You run away, you dodge, you wait for stamina, you keep dodging. How is that challenging?

Caww

Dizz wrote: »

I can't tell why you call a person Sherlock you don't really know, I just assume that is just part of communication.

Since you may not know, the reference to "Sherlock Holmes" (a fictional detective) is a sarcasm meant to imply a person doesn't know what they are talking about or are unaware of the obvious situation. In the context of this thread the meaning of "online" has come into question and is part of the greater conversation you were addressing.

Liniker

Mag7spy wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6BMbKLUqSA

lol the ranger aiming at the ground with the reticle like 1 meter away from the enemy, and people losing their shit saying there is no "action" in Ashes because of the soft lock... I guess BDO is not an action game as well cuz their soft lock is a lot more "noob friendly" and "no skill" than Ashes soft lock

Mag7spy

Liniker wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6BMbKLUqSA

lol the ranger aiming at the ground with the reticle like 1 meter away from the enemy, and people losing their shit saying there is no "action" in Ashes because of the soft lock... I guess BDO is not an action game as well cuz their soft lock is a lot more "noob friendly" and "no skill" than Ashes soft lock

Soft lock should be in mmorpgs and it is fine with it being "noob friendly" the point is to have that skill element of tracking and focus. It isn't meant to create expert shooters or FPS combat.

It keeps the skill element higher and reduces ability to kite with easy mode and having tab target attack people off screen.

This keeps it in line with action while also ensuring the barrier to entry is not giant. It scales higher in pvp when it comes to peoples movements and such.

AoC needs to tweak the action camera a bit on the UI side as the colors kind of mix together on your soft lock target (I don't feel like the arrow above the head is enough imo) Also it feels a bit more tight there should be more leeway in how close you need to be aiming towards your target for soft lock.

Again the point isn't to make it a barrier of entry to do content in the game.

The conversation gets worse when people argue against action camera having some sort of bonus and wanting full tab and people wanting action combat. There are more arguments that here should be, everything AoC has shown is pretty much good to a high quality on what id expect. There shouldn't be complains on how the system works, besides ironing out a few things to improve it a bit.

Long story short how it works is almost there and good, there shouldn't be complains on either side. Balance is a different issue besides the fact on talking about how it works.

LordBlank

wintertide wrote: »

People have a strange definition of action. As if action RPGs haven't been a thing for decades and how 99% of them do not have reticles, and most of the ones that do, don't act like first or third person shooters.

action is hat you feel in your soul

LordBlank

Dizz wrote: »

LordBlank wrote: »

Dizz wrote: »

LordBlank wrote: »

Fantmx wrote: »

The MMO market is nowhere near dying out and combat is not the next step. The next steps are:

1) a living, breathing world that responds to player decisions in a way that doesn't take constant content creation by the developer and

2) Smart AI

MMO longevity has nothing to do with type of combat.

MMO isn't dying out because MMO just means massive multiplayer online. That means games like destiny 2 and any online game by nature is an MMO. What will die out are MMORPGs. What's the average age of wow players?

Ummm, online game or game need internet connection does not means it's a MMO, a MMO need to have the ability to allow massive multiplayer to play the exactly same content at the same time, destiny 2 don't have that, but GW2 and WOW and FF14 adn BDO etc have that kind of ability and contents, so yes MMO genre is dying.

Dizz wrote: »

LordBlank wrote: »

Fantmx wrote: »

The MMO market is nowhere near dying out and combat is not the next step. The next steps are:

1) a living, breathing world that responds to player decisions in a way that doesn't take constant content creation by the developer and

2) Smart AI

MMO longevity has nothing to do with type of combat.

MMO isn't dying out because MMO just means massive multiplayer online. That means games like destiny 2 and any online game by nature is an MMO. What will die out are MMORPGs. What's the average age of wow players?

Ummm, online game or game need internet connection does not means it's a MMO, a MMO need to have the ability to allow massive multiplayer to play the exactly same content at the same time, destiny 2 don't have that, but GW2 and WOW and FF14 adn BDO etc have that kind of ability and contents, so yes MMO genre is dying.

Hi Sherlock, what do you think MMO stands for? I'll give you a hint, the O means online. "In 1974, Mazewar introduced the first graphic virtual world, providing a first-person perspective view of a maze in which players roamed around shooting at each other. It was also the first networked game, in which players at different computers could visually interact in a virtual space. The initial implementation was over a serial cable; however, when one of the authors began attending MIT in 1974, the game was enhanced so that it could be played across the ARPAnet, forerunner of the modern Internet."

I can't tell why you call a person Sherlock you don't really know, I just assume that is just part of communication.

I don't really care about what game company or medias claim what the game type the game is, like lots of game use the term "open world" but what is that about and lots of the games advertised as "open world" but they just games don't always need switch to loading screen or scene transaction but while they start use the term "ope world" a lot mostly were trying to tell people "open world" game equal the game world feels free and alive like a real exist world, so to me the terms they used are mostly to advertising instead of try to tell people the essences of the game.

I don't play and didn't follow Destiny 2, I only followed some information about Destiny 1 in that time on game website or twitch stream, to me Destiny is more like a multiplayer online hakoniwa shooting game, which means the game essence is shooting game and use game modes like choose between PVP or PVE contents or choose the which PVE stage you want to play before you really enter the content you want to play and have ability to play with other few people online.

To answer your question do you consider that Diablo 2 or Diablo 3 and Lost Ark that they all are MMOs? I mean if I follow what you said to categorize those games will end up they are all MMOs and further I can say Elder Ring is a MMO or Monster Hunter is a MMO or Splatoon is a MMO or Valorant is a MMO or LOL is a MMO or even most mobile waifu gacha games are also MMOs, what you said about MMO you only focus on "multiplayer" plus "online" instead of the whole "massive multiplayer online" which means to meet your definition of MMO the game just need to be multiplayer online game that lots people play it instead of games have abilities to let massive numbers of players share exactly one same game world and playing together at the same time.

I said Destiny 2, not 1. Stop living in the past and come to the present day. The Future is now. To infinity and beyond. Action combat is the way and any game where multiple people can play online together is an MMO. Is doesn't even have to be in a shared open world. Fortnite by definition is an MMO. Overwatch is an MMO. Do not take whatever warp view you have to change the basic definition of an MMO.

CROW3

LordBlank wrote: »

I said Destiny 2, not 1. Stop living in the past and come to the present day. The Future is now. To infinity and beyond. Action combat is the way and any game where multiple people can play online together is an MMO. Is doesn't even have to be in a shared open world. Fortnite by definition is an MMO. Overwatch is an MMO. Do not take whatever warp view you have to change the basic definition of an MMO.

These are cute semantic games. So I’ll make the phrasing short and specific for you:
- Destiny 2, Overwatch, and Fortnite are not MMORPGs they are MMOFPS
- Ashes is being designed as an MMORPG
- Ashes is not an MMOFPS, and it is not going to become an MMOFPS

If an MMOFPS is what you’re jonesing to play - there are plenty of options laid out above.

Dizz1

LordBlank wrote: »

Dizz wrote: »

LordBlank wrote: »

Dizz wrote: »

LordBlank wrote: »

Fantmx wrote: »

The MMO market is nowhere near dying out and combat is not the next step. The next steps are:

1) a living, breathing world that responds to player decisions in a way that doesn't take constant content creation by the developer and

2) Smart AI

MMO longevity has nothing to do with type of combat.

MMO isn't dying out because MMO just means massive multiplayer online. That means games like destiny 2 and any online game by nature is an MMO. What will die out are MMORPGs. What's the average age of wow players?

Ummm, online game or game need internet connection does not means it's a MMO, a MMO need to have the ability to allow massive multiplayer to play the exactly same content at the same time, destiny 2 don't have that, but GW2 and WOW and FF14 adn BDO etc have that kind of ability and contents, so yes MMO genre is dying.

Dizz wrote: »

LordBlank wrote: »

Fantmx wrote: »

The MMO market is nowhere near dying out and combat is not the next step. The next steps are:

1) a living, breathing world that responds to player decisions in a way that doesn't take constant content creation by the developer and

2) Smart AI

MMO longevity has nothing to do with type of combat.

MMO isn't dying out because MMO just means massive multiplayer online. That means games like destiny 2 and any online game by nature is an MMO. What will die out are MMORPGs. What's the average age of wow players?

Ummm, online game or game need internet connection does not means it's a MMO, a MMO need to have the ability to allow massive multiplayer to play the exactly same content at the same time, destiny 2 don't have that, but GW2 and WOW and FF14 adn BDO etc have that kind of ability and contents, so yes MMO genre is dying.

Hi Sherlock, what do you think MMO stands for? I'll give you a hint, the O means online. "In 1974, Mazewar introduced the first graphic virtual world, providing a first-person perspective view of a maze in which players roamed around shooting at each other. It was also the first networked game, in which players at different computers could visually interact in a virtual space. The initial implementation was over a serial cable; however, when one of the authors began attending MIT in 1974, the game was enhanced so that it could be played across the ARPAnet, forerunner of the modern Internet."

I can't tell why you call a person Sherlock you don't really know, I just assume that is just part of communication.

I don't really care about what game company or medias claim what the game type the game is, like lots of game use the term "open world" but what is that about and lots of the games advertised as "open world" but they just games don't always need switch to loading screen or scene transaction but while they start use the term "ope world" a lot mostly were trying to tell people "open world" game equal the game world feels free and alive like a real exist world, so to me the terms they used are mostly to advertising instead of try to tell people the essences of the game.

I don't play and didn't follow Destiny 2, I only followed some information about Destiny 1 in that time on game website or twitch stream, to me Destiny is more like a multiplayer online hakoniwa shooting game, which means the game essence is shooting game and use game modes like choose between PVP or PVE contents or choose the which PVE stage you want to play before you really enter the content you want to play and have ability to play with other few people online.

To answer your question do you consider that Diablo 2 or Diablo 3 and Lost Ark that they all are MMOs? I mean if I follow what you said to categorize those games will end up they are all MMOs and further I can say Elder Ring is a MMO or Monster Hunter is a MMO or Splatoon is a MMO or Valorant is a MMO or LOL is a MMO or even most mobile waifu gacha games are also MMOs, what you said about MMO you only focus on "multiplayer" plus "online" instead of the whole "massive multiplayer online" which means to meet your definition of MMO the game just need to be multiplayer online game that lots people play it instead of games have abilities to let massive numbers of players share exactly one same game world and playing together at the same time.

I said Destiny 2, not 1. Stop living in the past and come to the present day. The Future is now. To infinity and beyond. Action combat is the way and any game where multiple people can play online together is an MMO. Is doesn't even have to be in a shared open world. Fortnite by definition is an MMO. Overwatch is an MMO. Do not take whatever warp view you have to change the basic definition of an MMO.

I only manage to find out that Destiny 2 have game content for up to 6 players and up to 4 vs 4 PVP content, if there are more please inform me.

Fortnite, Apex , PUBG or game like these I take few step back to say they are MMOs at least I can see over 40 players in one match/instance.

I guess you know there is a game called WOW and during 2003~2006 we been through 40 players raids experience and massive event The Gates of Ahn'Qiraj a game content involve most players in one server, so we call games like WOW MMORPG, no matter what the base game type it is the first three letter is MMO if the game have contents and abilities to allow massive number of players play same content in the same time.

About action combat and action elements you guys feel failed to see in ranged weapon update video, players can’t control their character like control their own body because we don’t have that technology to do that, you guys need to think again how much action element is good how much is not good.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6BMbKLUqSA

lol the ranger aiming at the ground with the reticle like 1 meter away from the enemy, and people losing their shit saying there is no "action" in Ashes because of the soft lock... I guess BDO is not an action game as well cuz their soft lock is a lot more "noob friendly" and "no skill" than Ashes soft lock

Soft lock should be in mmorpgs and it is fine with it being "noob friendly" the point is to have that skill element of tracking and focus. It isn't meant to create expert shooters or FPS combat.

It keeps the skill element higher and reduces ability to kite with easy mode and having tab target attack people off screen.

A high skill ceiling isn't necessarily the best thing for a PvP game.

For a PvP game to be it's best, you want ad many people as close to the same overall ability as each other as is possible. No one enjoys a PvP fight when it is overly one sided (well, those that do are not the type of players an MMO wants).

I'm not saying I am asking for a low skill game or anything, but putting a hard cap on some aspects of player skill absolutely makes sense.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6BMbKLUqSA

lol the ranger aiming at the ground with the reticle like 1 meter away from the enemy, and people losing their shit saying there is no "action" in Ashes because of the soft lock... I guess BDO is not an action game as well cuz their soft lock is a lot more "noob friendly" and "no skill" than Ashes soft lock

Soft lock should be in mmorpgs and it is fine with it being "noob friendly" the point is to have that skill element of tracking and focus. It isn't meant to create expert shooters or FPS combat.

It keeps the skill element higher and reduces ability to kite with easy mode and having tab target attack people off screen.

A high skill ceiling isn't necessarily the best thing for a PvP game.

For a PvP game to be it's best, you want ad many people as close to the same overall ability as each other as is possible. No one enjoys a PvP fight when it is overly one sided (well, those that do are not the type of players an MMO wants).

I'm not saying I am asking for a low skill game or anything, but putting a hard cap on some aspects of player skill absolutely makes sense.

Unsure if you read my whole post you say some weird things here int he part you quoted....

I'm not convinced you know what mmorpgs players want now a days, I feel you have a tight circle that thinks the same as you. If you talk to a lot of people they want skill to be involved their game and to matter. That doesn't mean a tiny curve as there is no perceptive if you don't have a higher element to it.

That sounds like it isn't the type of mmo players you want, you are putting words in other peoples mouths there. So either you are saying tab target is easier to manage to keep skill levels down, or you ignore the fact about builds, rotations and such making fights completely one sided that by through player skill they can't improve mid match. As well as gear being more important than anything and creating one sided fights through tab target where they have 0 chance to win. Compared to allowing skill to move the bar on giving you a chance.

ie Rift for example if you have decent gear you could run around 2-3 shotting people with fireballs in two seconds and it was easy. Player skill would ensure their skill would matter in landing attacks as well the other player in being able to dodge and there for giving a little more of a chance. Instead of 0% chance at all to win and you lose the fight easily with it being super one sided. This is with both people being max level and the gear meaning more than anything else

Also this is a mmorpg I never said you are going to be able to block every single move on skill alone hence there will be a cap on what you can do.....Also if you read my post I talk about barrier to entry being reasonable as its not about the skill of aiming.

End of the day you don't need to be the best player in a mmorpg nor will everyone be god tier skill wise...Just play, enjoy and have fun and fight the people you can handle and recruit players based on their skills and not simply tracker sheets ;o

CROW3

Mag7spy wrote: »

If you talk to a lot of people they want skill to be involved their game and to matter…

If by ‘talk to a lot of people’ you mean, conduct a well crafted neutral survey that eliminates confirmation bias as much as possible, then you’d have some compelling evidence to speak on behalf of the surveyed players. But I don’t think that’s what you mean at all. So your loaded dice are just as problematic as anyone else’s.

Totally fine for your opinion, but it’s your opinion.

Closest thing I’ve seen to data around the whole ‘action’ v ‘tab’ issue for ashes was conducted by Jahlon, who runs PGN. Here are the results:

This is what actual data looks like. Here’s a link to @Jahlon’s Ashes101 channel if you’re interested in his additional polls.

https://youtube.com/c/ParadoxGamingNetwork

maouw

CROW3 wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

If you talk to a lot of people they want skill to be involved their game and to matter…

If by ‘talk to a lot of people’ you mean, conduct a well crafted neutral survey that eliminates confirmation bias as much as possible, then you’d have some compelling evidence to speak on behalf of the surveyed players. But I don’t think that’s what you mean at all. So your loaded dice are just as problematic as anyone else’s.

Totally fine for your opinion, but it’s your opinion.

Closest thing I’ve seen to data around the whole ‘action’ v ‘tab’ issue for ashes was conducted by Jahlon, who runs PGN. Here are the results:

This is what actual data looks like. Here’s a link to @Jahlon’s Ashes101 channel if you’re interested in his additional polls.

https://youtube.com/c/ParadoxGamingNetwork

418 votes? That's a decent sample size!
It's cool to see 95% of the population aren't purists

CROW3

maouw wrote: »

418 votes? That's a decent sample size!
It's cool to see 95% of the population aren't purists

Yeah, I thought it was encouraging as well. I’m really looking forward to A2 and what data that provides about … well, kinda everything; certainly about how successful the initial hybrid take is for Ashes.

Okeydoke

Noaani wrote: »

A high skill ceiling isn't necessarily the best thing for a PvP game.

For a PvP game to be it's best, you want ad many people as close to the same overall ability as each other as is possible. No one enjoys a PvP fight when it is overly one sided (well, those that do are not the type of players an MMO wants).

I'm not saying I am asking for a low skill game or anything, but putting a hard cap on some aspects of player skill absolutely makes sense.

I agree with this, conceptually. Not trying to wade into a Mag vs Noaani argument, fuck that lol, not picking sides. I haven't even read most of the previous posts in this thread. But I agree with Noaani's post here, conceptually at least.

Where the disagreement might start is with the question of what is a high skill gap exactly and what is low? It's subjective. Everyone has a different definition.

But in an open world pvp mmo like Ashes, you may not want a super high skill gap. The game doesn't end. There's no new lobby or match to go into in Ashes like there is when you get completely smoked by tryhards in an Apex Legends match. There's no skill based match making. Everyone inhabits the same world and has to compete against the same people over and over and over.

I'd personally argue for a moderately high skill gap. Whatever the hell that means. I'd never call for a low skill gap. But there's definitely only so far Intrepid can go in creating a super high skill gap before it begins to become an actual detriment to the game.

Child Item