The MMO market is nowhere near dying out and combat is not the next step. The next steps are:
1) a living, breathing world that responds to player decisions in a way that doesn't take constant content creation by the developer and
2) Smart AI
MMO longevity has nothing to do with type of combat.
good luck lol. for that I'd start by looking for the right team and right vision. . . Sharif is "Make MMOs Great Again" which they never were, if you want those 2 things LMAO
His pathfinder campaigning mechanics are not a bad indication but I doubt he knows how to hire the right team for something like that.
The MMO market is nowhere near dying out and combat is not the next step. The next steps are:
1) a living, breathing world that responds to player decisions in a way that doesn't take constant content creation by the developer and
2) Smart AI
MMO longevity has nothing to do with type of combat.
MMO isn't dying out because MMO just means massive multiplayer online. That means games like destiny 2 and any online game by nature is an MMO. What will die out are MMORPGs. What's the average age of wow players?
The MMO market is nowhere near dying out and combat is not the next step. The next steps are:
1) a living, breathing world that responds to player decisions in a way that doesn't take constant content creation by the developer and
2) Smart AI
MMO longevity has nothing to do with type of combat.
MMO isn't dying out because MMO just means massive multiplayer online. That means games like destiny 2 and any online game by nature is an MMO. What will die out are MMORPGs. What's the average age of wow players?
Ummm, online game or game need internet connection does not means it's a MMO, a MMO need to have the ability to allow massive multiplayer to play the exactly same content at the same time, destiny 2 don't have that, but GW2 and WOW and FF14 adn BDO etc have that kind of ability and contents, so yes MMO genre is dying.
The draw of this product was the idea a Western developer would "Make MMO's Great Again", but alas we're going down the safe route. Guess we'll see if the node system can outshine bland combat.
You do realize that the phrase "make something great again" implies that the old version was great so we gotta bring it back, right?
It means something was great at a time, therefore we need to make it so again. It doesn't mean we need to bring everything back, that's just nostalgia. Look at "Make America Great Again", if everything it was so good, why weren't certain political decisions around slaves being reinstated? I wonder...
It was never about making the game a fucking shooter.
As a poster, you usually post somewhat decent takes, but this is a consistently dumb post I see a lot of people that just can't comprehend using mechanical skills outside of memorizing a rotation echo. It's shit.
As a poster, you usually post somewhat decent takes, but this is a consistently dumb post I see a lot of people that just can't comprehend using mechanical skills outside of memorizing a rotation echo. It's shit.
And the current system has requirements for mechanical skill too. Especially once they show more action abilities (as they themselves said, this stream was more about tab).
But these past few days I've seen quite a few people saying that action combat purely means headshots and very high precision requirements. And that's just not feasible for what Intrepid is going for with their other designs.
I just find it quite goalpost-movey when people start with "oh this is not action combat", but then, when they're shown and told that you can use abilities and shoot your bow w/o a target, they start saying "well that's not enough action combat, it must be like this!". And usually that "this" is either shooters or NW's ranged weapons, which is literally shooters too, headshots and all.
Intrepid has said from the very beginning, they're trying to go for hybrid but will go back to tab if hybrid fails. Yet people somehow expected to see NW2: Shooter Boogaloo.
]Intrepid has said from the very beginning, they're trying to go for hybrid but will go back to tab if hybrid fails. Yet people somehow expected to see NW2: Shooter Boogaloo.
Agreed, although NW2: Shooter Boogaloo does have a certain appeal.
There's nothing inherently wrong or bad about tab target or action combat, both are fine. Players will be able to swap between them any time they want.
If done right, tab target combat can be fun. If done poorly, tab target combat can be dogshit boring.
If done right, action combat can be fun. If done poorly, action combat can be a shitshow.
If Intrepid is able to make both options fun and viable, each one with its pros and cons, then there's nothing to whine about. People who complain about either combat styles are just butthurt because their preferred style isn't the only option available. If both combat styles are well done and you hate tab target, never use it. If both combat styles are well done and you hate action combat, never use it.
If either of the combat styles is dogshit or if one is extremely better than the other, then by all means, crate as many shitposts as you possibly can. Sadly you can't know that before playing the game.
Though I aree, I think the more reasonable people aren't necessarily complaining about one or the other, but rather on whether one is inherently better than the other.
If one is vastly superior, it renders the other unnecessary or worse: it will make your PvX team feel like you're throwing for not picking the better option.
I asked a few questions on my feedback post (in the intended thread):
Basically it comes down to this: does an arrow loosed from a tab targeting press have the same odds of missing as one loosed from action camera?
If a target is outside of my bow's range, can switching to action camera and aiming higher, allow the arrow to fly further than it could in tab target?
How far off of the target can my reticle be and still have my arrow hit the target? Does this change if I have a hard-lock or not?
For me, there is one extra issue that is not related to the player's tab targeted combat but to ranged enemies.
If supposedly, you go heads-on with a Minotaur Shaman, or any other range mob for the matter, and all his attacks can hit you because no matter if you roll or jump or use Air Strike the projectile is still homing your a** then is it really ranged combat? or is just melee combat that appears to be ranged?
This might be because I'm a zoomer but I inherently don't understand what's the point of ranged combat if you have no way of dodging enemy projectiles... It seems like the fight is determined purely by who strikes first + how much raw dmg/ per shot & resistances it has in order to conserve HP. Even in old games like Titan Quest, or Diablo 2, you could dodge enemy skillshots but in this game, if you happen to agro 5 Minotaurs you'll literally need to borrow the Israeli Iron Dome in order to get away cus those water bubbles are chasing you all the way to hell
And the current system has requirements for mechanical skill too. Especially once they show more action abilities (as they themselves said, this stream was more about tab).
But these past few days I've seen quite a few people saying that action combat purely means headshots and very high precision requirements. And that's just not feasible for what Intrepid is going for with their other designs.
I just find it quite goalpost-movey when people start with "oh this is not action combat", but then, when they're shown and told that you can use abilities and shoot your bow w/o a target, they start saying "well that's not enough action combat, it must be like this!". And usually that "this" is either shooters or NW's ranged weapons, which is literally shooters too, headshots and all.
Intrepid has said from the very beginning, they're trying to go for hybrid but will go back to tab if hybrid fails. Yet people somehow expected to see NW2: Shooter Boogaloo.
What is wrong with shooting for a shooter class? Tab/ Lock on can exist too.
There's nothing inherently wrong or bad about tab target or action combat, both are fine. Players will be able to swap between them any time they want.
If done right, tab target combat can be fun. If done poorly, tab target combat can be dogshit boring.
If done right, action combat can be fun. If done poorly, action combat can be a shitshow.
If Intrepid is able to make both options fun and viable, each one with its pros and cons, then there's nothing to whine about. People who complain about either combat styles are just butthurt because their preferred style isn't the only option available. If both combat styles are well done and you hate tab target, never use it. If both combat styles are well done and you hate action combat, never use it.
If either of the combat styles is dogshit or if one is extremely better than the other, then by all means, crate as many shitposts as you possibly can. Sadly you can't know that before playing the game.
Though I aree, I think the more reasonable people aren't necessarily complaining about one or the other, but rather on whether one is inherently better than the other.
If one is vastly superior, it renders the other unnecessary or worse: it will make your PvX team feel like you're throwing for not picking the better option.
I asked a few questions on my feedback post (in the intended thread):
Basically it comes down to this: does an arrow loosed from a tab targeting press have the same odds of missing as one loosed from action camera?
If a target is outside of my bow's range, can switching to action camera and aiming higher, allow the arrow to fly further than it could in tab target?
How far off of the target can my reticle be and still have my arrow hit the target? Does this change if I have a hard-lock or not?
For me, there is one extra issue that is not related to the player's tab targeted combat but to ranged enemies.
If supposedly, you go heads-on with a Minotaur Shaman, or any other range mob for the matter, and all his attacks can hit you because no matter if you roll or jump or use Air Strike the projectile is still homing your a** then is it really ranged combat? or is just melee combat that appears to be ranged?
This might be because I'm a zoomer but I inherently don't understand what's the point of ranged combat if you have no way of dodging enemy projectiles... It seems like the fight is determined purely by who strikes first + how much raw dmg/ per shot & resistances it has in order to conserve HP. Even in old games like Titan Quest, or Diablo 2, you could dodge enemy skillshots but in this game, if you happen to agro 5 Minotaurs you'll literally need to borrow the Israeli Iron Dome in order to get away cus those water bubbles are chasing you all the way to hell
Im fine with enemies homing more so on you, being a mmorpg there is a balance that has to be had . It will take a lot more time and be more difficult to design other kinds of situations more frequently. Doesn't mean every attack needs to home there can be some special variations for harder types of content.
But there needs to be a balance that also ensures some harder levels of difficulty requiring your tanks and healers, but still having that layer of additional skill.
The MMO market is nowhere near dying out and combat is not the next step. The next steps are:
1) a living, breathing world that responds to player decisions in a way that doesn't take constant content creation by the developer and
2) Smart AI
MMO longevity has nothing to do with type of combat.
MMO isn't dying out because MMO just means massive multiplayer online. That means games like destiny 2 and any online game by nature is an MMO. What will die out are MMORPGs. What's the average age of wow players?
It all just comes down to preference in the end but I have a REALLY hard time believing in this day and age that there are more gamers that just want to tab target and no challenge. I know there are still people that would prefer that monotony, but I think the only reason that these forums might slightly lean toward tab is that most FPS gamers etc don't even bother with MMORPG's due to garbage combat. When in fact MMORPG's are the best genre out there and they should be here. I'm one that will put up with the shitty combat experience to have the immersion but I also believe we should be moving this genre forward and I guess Steven wasn't the guy to do that unfortunately.
It all just comes down to preference in the end but I have a REALLY hard time believing in this day and age that there are more gamers that just want to tab target and no challenge. I know there are still people that would prefer that monotony, but I think the only reason that these forums might slightly lean toward tab is that most FPS gamers etc don't even bother with MMORPG's due to garbage combat. When in fact MMORPG's are the best genre out there and they should be here. I'm one that will put up with the shitty combat experience to have the immersion but I also believe we should be moving this genre forward and I guess Steven wasn't the guy to do that unfortunately.
AoC is in a good direction at the moment, think you are being more critical over giving better feedback.
You can clearly see from the look of the game it is going int he direction of having a higher skill cap. The systems are there for tab and action basic attacks (needs to be refined a bit still) and it should work and feel great based on what I have seen.
Just needs to have a balance if one mode is far easier than the other and other things explained. Soft lock is the way to go for mmorpgs like this.
It all just comes down to preference in the end but I have a REALLY hard time believing in this day and age that there are more gamers that just want to tab target and no challenge. I know there are still people that would prefer that monotony, but I think the only reason that these forums might slightly lean toward tab is that most FPS gamers etc don't even bother with MMORPG's due to garbage combat. When in fact MMORPG's are the best genre out there and they should be here. I'm one that will put up with the shitty combat experience to have the immersion but I also believe we should be moving this genre forward and I guess Steven wasn't the guy to do that unfortunately.
AoC is in a good direction at the moment, think you are being more critical over giving better feedback.
You can clearly see from the look of the game it is going int he direction of having a higher skill cap. The systems are there for tab and action basic attacks (needs to be refined a bit still) and it should work and feel great based on what I have seen.
Just needs to have a balance if one mode is far easier than the other and other things explained. Soft lock is the way to go for mmorpgs like this.
I don't want to totally dump on the game. It looks very good and I think he has done some cool stuff...I just don't think combat is really part of it. Is it going to be better than some of the MMORPG's out there...sure, but still not anything groundbreaking. I think New World will have better combat for someone like me that prefers a challenge in pvp etc. I think we are excluding a large swath of gamers for what? To keep the tab target crowd happy? Which is better I guess it all depends on money. Not sure what the real answer to that would be monetarily...
It all just comes down to preference in the end but I have a REALLY hard time believing in this day and age that there are more gamers that just want to tab target and no challenge. I know there are still people that would prefer that monotony, but I think the only reason that these forums might slightly lean toward tab is that most FPS gamers etc don't even bother with MMORPG's due to garbage combat. When in fact MMORPG's are the best genre out there and they should be here. I'm one that will put up with the shitty combat experience to have the immersion but I also believe we should be moving this genre forward and I guess Steven wasn't the guy to do that unfortunately.
AoC is in a good direction at the moment, think you are being more critical over giving better feedback.
You can clearly see from the look of the game it is going int he direction of having a higher skill cap. The systems are there for tab and action basic attacks (needs to be refined a bit still) and it should work and feel great based on what I have seen.
Just needs to have a balance if one mode is far easier than the other and other things explained. Soft lock is the way to go for mmorpgs like this.
I don't want to totally dump on the game. It looks very good and I think he has done some cool stuff...I just don't think combat is really part of it. Is it going to be better than some of the MMORPG's out there...sure, but still not anything groundbreaking. I think New World will have better combat for someone like me that prefers a challenge in pvp etc. I think we are excluding a large swath of gamers for what? To keep the tab target crowd happy? Which is better I guess it all depends on money. Not sure what the real answer to that would be monetarily...
Naa AoC will have better combat than new world, you can already start to see that. I dont really want to get into all the details cause we would be here all day. But new world combat is very very simple, your attack motions are hard rooted, same with most skills, and very limited amount of skills. Most the time on some weapons you just mash left click and that is your dmg.
AoC will provide more pvp challenge than new world. You need to look at the system they are showing and understand the challenges they can impose. Tracking is fine, you don't need precise aim, it allows you have to have more focus on other elements of a mmorpg with combat and skills.
All they need to do is have incentive for action combat parts of it that are clearly more difficult oh it than tab which will automatically hit the target.
They have that done and its one of the best mmorpgs with combat hands down with you being able to adjust some of your skills to make them more action based as well, based on what you want to do.
@beretta7
Do you have an idea for a Ranger ability?
I'm not really sure if I do in the way the system is set up currently. I think NOT having a head shot mechanic is a big mistake. Initially because Steven was so vague about action and exactly where he was going I just assumed he might be going more damage bonus etc for action and I thought action would be more FPS'ish. The way the combat currently stands the only benefit to action is on AOE cone etc and the ability to hit a moving target. That is pretty much just "better than nothing" imo. It is pretty apparent he is just adding action to have the ability to say he did it. Back to your question...I think head shot and a mechanic to switch to action and get a back shot bonus...but only in action combat mode. Again, just neither seems possible in the current iteration of combat.
@beretta7
Do you have an idea for a Ranger ability?
I'm not really sure if I do in the way the system is set up currently. I think NOT having a head shot mechanic is a big mistake. Initially because Steven was so vague about action and exactly where he was going I just assumed he might be going more damage bonus etc for action and I thought action would be more FPS'ish. The way the combat currently stands the only benefit to action is on AOE cone etc and the ability to hit a moving target. That is pretty much just "better than nothing" imo. It is pretty apparent he is just adding action to have the ability to say he did it. Back to your question...I think head shot and a mechanic to switch to action and get a back shot bonus...but only in action combat mode. Again, just neither seems possible in the current iteration of combat.
Action ins't FPSish though. Fps is fps and action is action. Soft targeting is action as long as you are camera facing you can be hitting your target with some leeway around your crosshair. So you use movement to get out of range of their attacks and throw them off.
Focusing on head shots is extremely FPS, which takes away from your focus on other mechanics involving a mmorpg with your vast amount of skills (within reason, when you start having like 25+ skills on your hot bar it is kind of dumb).
I wonder if that's frustrating to Steven, in the end... All that Node System work, and people fixated on 'Hybrid Combat' as if we haven't had that for years in many games.
To be fair, we haven't really seen or heard anything Node related since the Alpha really. We still haven't seen a walkthrough of a City or Metropolis level node and I assume the Village and lower levels have had significant development since we last saw them.
I still can't wrap my head around how they are going to pull it off to be perfectly honest. 6 different stages of Node development with 9 different potential racial outcomes for each of the stages. and we haven't even seen the full development of one...
thats literally not too difficult. just google trees in programming or tree data structure T_T
they probably havent shown much because creating all the visuals take longer than implementing them. they probably have the system already finished with crappy placeholder graphics that no one wanna see hahaha
As a poster, you usually post somewhat decent takes, but this is a consistently dumb post I see a lot of people that just can't comprehend using mechanical skills outside of memorizing a rotation echo. It's shit.
Intrepid has said from the very beginning, they're trying to go for hybrid but will go back to tab if hybrid fails. Yet people somehow expected to see NW2: Shooter Boogaloo.
I don't think you understand what "shooter" even means. If one was to say, "This game should be similar to Destiny 2!", then yes, that's a shooter. But to call for a more action focused combat system doesn't mean, "Give us COD!", if you think that you're a fool. And claiming New World's combat is similar to a shooter is just... laughable. In that case, as someone else stated, I guess that makes the Elder Scrolls series a shooter too?
I don't think you understand what "shooter" even means. If one was to say, "This game should be similar to Destiny 2!", then yes, that's a shooter. But to call for a more action focused combat system doesn't mean, "Give us COD!", if you think that you're a fool. And claiming New World's combat is similar to a shooter is just... laughable. In that case, as someone else stated, I guess that makes the Elder Scrolls series a shooter too?
Like I said in the post, it's what some people have asked for. Headshots and high precision reticle targeting is literally the staple and main mechanic of shooters.
And as I said in another post, the game will already have other action abilities. It was shown in the previous combat stream and devs literally said "we're concentrating more on tab for this stream" in this one.
I don't know how ESO works, but I'm fairly sure NW has headshots and very precise hitboxes, when it comes to its ranged attacks. And those kinds of attacks fit nicely for the design they were going for. But neither I nor, seemingly, Intrepid believe that this kind of mechanic fits Ashes.
Are there other hybrid mmos that have headshots and non-softlock targeting? If there are, I'd be interested in seeing how they make them work in pvp, if they even have pvp.
I don't think you understand what "shooter" even means. If one was to say, "This game should be similar to Destiny 2!", then yes, that's a shooter. But to call for a more action focused combat system doesn't mean, "Give us COD!", if you think that you're a fool. And claiming New World's combat is similar to a shooter is just... laughable. In that case, as someone else stated, I guess that makes the Elder Scrolls series a shooter too?
Like I said in the post, it's what some people have asked for. Headshots and high precision reticle targeting is literally the staple and main mechanic of shooters.
And as I said in another post, the game will already have other action abilities. It was shown in the previous combat stream and devs literally said "we're concentrating more on tab for this stream" in this one.
I don't know how ESO works, but I'm fairly sure NW has headshots and very precise hitboxes, when it comes to its ranged attacks. And those kinds of attacks fit nicely for the design they were going for. But neither I nor, seemingly, Intrepid believe that this kind of mechanic fits Ashes.
Are there other hybrid mmos that have headshots and non-softlock targeting? If there are, I'd be interested in seeing how they make them work in pvp, if they even have pvp.
Yeah NW is pretty close to a shooter especially with bow...gun is hit scan but bow is total FPS on default shot. TBH I'm not sure HE knows what he's talking about LOL.
I don't think you understand what "shooter" even means. If one was to say, "This game should be similar to Destiny 2!", then yes, that's a shooter. But to call for a more action focused combat system doesn't mean, "Give us COD!", if you think that you're a fool. And claiming New World's combat is similar to a shooter is just... laughable. In that case, as someone else stated, I guess that makes the Elder Scrolls series a shooter too?
Like I said in the post, it's what some people have asked for. Headshots and high precision reticle targeting is literally the staple and main mechanic of shooters.
Loosely? Headshots are featured in multiple games that aren't "shooters". Examples are, Mortal, Gloria Victis, Chivalry, Mordhau, Mount & Blade, Skyrim (Elder Scrolls), etc. Just because I hit you in the head and you die, that doesn't make the game a "shooter". And the "high precision reticle targeting", sure that's part of shooters but any game with mechanical requirements to aim an attack could fall into that category.
I don't know how ESO works, but I'm fairly sure NW has headshots and very precise hitboxes, when it comes to its ranged attacks. And those kinds of attacks fit nicely for the design they were going for. But neither I nor, seemingly, Intrepid believe that this kind of mechanic fits Ashes.
ESO doesn't allow you to manually aim in the sense that NW does, so you're aware, when I referred to Elder Scrolls I meant the main games, the RPG singleplayer titles. The reason I brought them up was because the idea that "headshots" equate to "shooter" is just not correct.
Are there other hybrid mmos that have headshots and non-softlock targeting? If there are, I'd be interested in seeing how they make them work in pvp, if they even have pvp.
Mortal Online, that's an easy one, Gloria Victis and Darkfall too but I don't believe headshots were a thing with Darkfall, haven't looked at it for a long time, it does allow for manual aiming though. At the end of it all, my issue with "headshot" or "shooter" comments weren't about my wish for said mechanics to be in this game, it was because they're just wrong.
I don't think you understand what "shooter" even means. If one was to say, "This game should be similar to Destiny 2!", then yes, that's a shooter. But to call for a more action focused combat system doesn't mean, "Give us COD!", if you think that you're a fool. And claiming New World's combat is similar to a shooter is just... laughable. In that case, as someone else stated, I guess that makes the Elder Scrolls series a shooter too?
Like I said in the post, it's what some people have asked for. Headshots and high precision reticle targeting is literally the staple and main mechanic of shooters.
Loosely? Headshots are featured in multiple games that aren't "shooters". Examples are, Mortal, Gloria Victis, Chivalry, Mordhau, Mount & Blade, Skyrim (Elder Scrolls), etc. Just because I hit you in the head and you die, that doesn't make the game a "shooter". And the "high precision reticle targeting", sure that's part of shooters but any game with mechanical requirements to aim an attack could fall into that category.
I don't know how ESO works, but I'm fairly sure NW has headshots and very precise hitboxes, when it comes to its ranged attacks. And those kinds of attacks fit nicely for the design they were going for. But neither I nor, seemingly, Intrepid believe that this kind of mechanic fits Ashes.
ESO doesn't allow you to manually aim in the sense that NW does, so you're aware, when I referred to Elder Scrolls I meant the main games, the RPG singleplayer titles. The reason I brought them up was because the idea that "headshots" equate to "shooter" is just not correct.
Are there other hybrid mmos that have headshots and non-softlock targeting? If there are, I'd be interested in seeing how they make them work in pvp, if they even have pvp.
Mortal Online, that's an easy one, Gloria Victis and Darkfall too but I don't believe headshots were a thing with Darkfall, haven't looked at it for a long time, it does allow for manual aiming though. At the end of it all, my issue with "headshot" or "shooter" comments weren't about my wish for said mechanics to be in this game, it was because they're just wrong.
Games you mentioned are all action based games, and much players are misunderstanding what hybrid combat means like you, a very simply example if you know cars, Toyota hybrid car and Honda hybrid car they all called hybrid car, but they work very different, just like how Ashes of Creation's hybrid combat and the hybrid combat you guys think should more lean to action based, before combat revamp if the root combat animation able to please most of players and most of players gave very positive feedbacks to devs then they won’t have do combat revamp again and go toward hybrid combat that leans to tab target based combat with split body combat animations which means the game is not action based at this moment, so which also means we can discuss about to add action elements to Ashes of Creation but you guys need to really understand what is fun what is too much, don't waste dev team's time and life to test those false thoughts about action elements seems fun and easy and reasonable but to most players hard to enter and feel the joy to play with friends that because most players play MMORPG for exploring a different world and connect to other players and have fun and chill instead of practice aiming skills to meet a baseline in order to join game contents and play with others or friends and won't ruining the experience then everybody end up leaving the game and then the game dies.
Again take the root combat animations as a lesson, think more and far and open and make compromises stop waste devs team's time and life again and again, give some respect to them.
Comments
I honestly don't think he can...unless you mean real world gloves, but that would just be weird.
That is 100% evident by the complete failure of a majority released since 2000 in NA. There are exceptions but not many.
good luck lol. for that I'd start by looking for the right team and right vision. . . Sharif is "Make MMOs Great Again" which they never were, if you want those 2 things LMAO
His pathfinder campaigning mechanics are not a bad indication but I doubt he knows how to hire the right team for something like that.
MMO isn't dying out because MMO just means massive multiplayer online. That means games like destiny 2 and any online game by nature is an MMO. What will die out are MMORPGs. What's the average age of wow players?
Ummm, online game or game need internet connection does not means it's a MMO, a MMO need to have the ability to allow massive multiplayer to play the exactly same content at the same time, destiny 2 don't have that, but GW2 and WOW and FF14 adn BDO etc have that kind of ability and contents, so yes MMO genre is dying.
↓Good youtube channel to learn things about creating games.↓
Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1DvRY5PyHHt3KN9ghunuw
It means something was great at a time, therefore we need to make it so again. It doesn't mean we need to bring everything back, that's just nostalgia. Look at "Make America Great Again", if everything it was so good, why weren't certain political decisions around slaves being reinstated? I wonder...
As a poster, you usually post somewhat decent takes, but this is a consistently dumb post I see a lot of people that just can't comprehend using mechanical skills outside of memorizing a rotation echo. It's shit.
But these past few days I've seen quite a few people saying that action combat purely means headshots and very high precision requirements. And that's just not feasible for what Intrepid is going for with their other designs.
I just find it quite goalpost-movey when people start with "oh this is not action combat", but then, when they're shown and told that you can use abilities and shoot your bow w/o a target, they start saying "well that's not enough action combat, it must be like this!". And usually that "this" is either shooters or NW's ranged weapons, which is literally shooters too, headshots and all.
Intrepid has said from the very beginning, they're trying to go for hybrid but will go back to tab if hybrid fails. Yet people somehow expected to see NW2: Shooter Boogaloo.
Agreed, although NW2: Shooter Boogaloo does have a certain appeal.
For me, there is one extra issue that is not related to the player's tab targeted combat but to ranged enemies.
If supposedly, you go heads-on with a Minotaur Shaman, or any other range mob for the matter, and all his attacks can hit you because no matter if you roll or jump or use Air Strike the projectile is still homing your a** then is it really ranged combat? or is just melee combat that appears to be ranged?
This might be because I'm a zoomer but I inherently don't understand what's the point of ranged combat if you have no way of dodging enemy projectiles... It seems like the fight is determined purely by who strikes first + how much raw dmg/ per shot & resistances it has in order to conserve HP. Even in old games like Titan Quest, or Diablo 2, you could dodge enemy skillshots but in this game, if you happen to agro 5 Minotaurs you'll literally need to borrow the Israeli Iron Dome in order to get away cus those water bubbles are chasing you all the way to hell
What is wrong with shooting for a shooter class? Tab/ Lock on can exist too.
Im fine with enemies homing more so on you, being a mmorpg there is a balance that has to be had . It will take a lot more time and be more difficult to design other kinds of situations more frequently. Doesn't mean every attack needs to home there can be some special variations for harder types of content.
But there needs to be a balance that also ensures some harder levels of difficulty requiring your tanks and healers, but still having that layer of additional skill.
You must not have kids.
AoC is in a good direction at the moment, think you are being more critical over giving better feedback.
You can clearly see from the look of the game it is going int he direction of having a higher skill cap. The systems are there for tab and action basic attacks (needs to be refined a bit still) and it should work and feel great based on what I have seen.
Just needs to have a balance if one mode is far easier than the other and other things explained. Soft lock is the way to go for mmorpgs like this.
I don't want to totally dump on the game. It looks very good and I think he has done some cool stuff...I just don't think combat is really part of it. Is it going to be better than some of the MMORPG's out there...sure, but still not anything groundbreaking. I think New World will have better combat for someone like me that prefers a challenge in pvp etc. I think we are excluding a large swath of gamers for what? To keep the tab target crowd happy? Which is better I guess it all depends on money. Not sure what the real answer to that would be monetarily...
Naa AoC will have better combat than new world, you can already start to see that. I dont really want to get into all the details cause we would be here all day. But new world combat is very very simple, your attack motions are hard rooted, same with most skills, and very limited amount of skills. Most the time on some weapons you just mash left click and that is your dmg.
AoC will provide more pvp challenge than new world. You need to look at the system they are showing and understand the challenges they can impose. Tracking is fine, you don't need precise aim, it allows you have to have more focus on other elements of a mmorpg with combat and skills.
All they need to do is have incentive for action combat parts of it that are clearly more difficult oh it than tab which will automatically hit the target.
They have that done and its one of the best mmorpgs with combat hands down with you being able to adjust some of your skills to make them more action based as well, based on what you want to do.
Do you have an idea for a Ranger ability?
I'm not really sure if I do in the way the system is set up currently. I think NOT having a head shot mechanic is a big mistake. Initially because Steven was so vague about action and exactly where he was going I just assumed he might be going more damage bonus etc for action and I thought action would be more FPS'ish. The way the combat currently stands the only benefit to action is on AOE cone etc and the ability to hit a moving target. That is pretty much just "better than nothing" imo. It is pretty apparent he is just adding action to have the ability to say he did it. Back to your question...I think head shot and a mechanic to switch to action and get a back shot bonus...but only in action combat mode. Again, just neither seems possible in the current iteration of combat.
Action ins't FPSish though. Fps is fps and action is action. Soft targeting is action as long as you are camera facing you can be hitting your target with some leeway around your crosshair. So you use movement to get out of range of their attacks and throw them off.
Focusing on head shots is extremely FPS, which takes away from your focus on other mechanics involving a mmorpg with your vast amount of skills (within reason, when you start having like 25+ skills on your hot bar it is kind of dumb).
What action games have you played?
thats literally not too difficult. just google trees in programming or tree data structure T_T
they probably havent shown much because creating all the visuals take longer than implementing them. they probably have the system already finished with crappy placeholder graphics that no one wanna see hahaha
I don't think you understand what "shooter" even means. If one was to say, "This game should be similar to Destiny 2!", then yes, that's a shooter. But to call for a more action focused combat system doesn't mean, "Give us COD!", if you think that you're a fool. And claiming New World's combat is similar to a shooter is just... laughable. In that case, as someone else stated, I guess that makes the Elder Scrolls series a shooter too?
And as I said in another post, the game will already have other action abilities. It was shown in the previous combat stream and devs literally said "we're concentrating more on tab for this stream" in this one.
I don't know how ESO works, but I'm fairly sure NW has headshots and very precise hitboxes, when it comes to its ranged attacks. And those kinds of attacks fit nicely for the design they were going for. But neither I nor, seemingly, Intrepid believe that this kind of mechanic fits Ashes.
Are there other hybrid mmos that have headshots and non-softlock targeting? If there are, I'd be interested in seeing how they make them work in pvp, if they even have pvp.
Yeah NW is pretty close to a shooter especially with bow...gun is hit scan but bow is total FPS on default shot. TBH I'm not sure HE knows what he's talking about LOL.
Loosely? Headshots are featured in multiple games that aren't "shooters". Examples are, Mortal, Gloria Victis, Chivalry, Mordhau, Mount & Blade, Skyrim (Elder Scrolls), etc. Just because I hit you in the head and you die, that doesn't make the game a "shooter". And the "high precision reticle targeting", sure that's part of shooters but any game with mechanical requirements to aim an attack could fall into that category.
ESO doesn't allow you to manually aim in the sense that NW does, so you're aware, when I referred to Elder Scrolls I meant the main games, the RPG singleplayer titles. The reason I brought them up was because the idea that "headshots" equate to "shooter" is just not correct.
Mortal Online, that's an easy one, Gloria Victis and Darkfall too but I don't believe headshots were a thing with Darkfall, haven't looked at it for a long time, it does allow for manual aiming though. At the end of it all, my issue with "headshot" or "shooter" comments weren't about my wish for said mechanics to be in this game, it was because they're just wrong.
Games you mentioned are all action based games, and much players are misunderstanding what hybrid combat means like you, a very simply example if you know cars, Toyota hybrid car and Honda hybrid car they all called hybrid car, but they work very different, just like how Ashes of Creation's hybrid combat and the hybrid combat you guys think should more lean to action based, before combat revamp if the root combat animation able to please most of players and most of players gave very positive feedbacks to devs then they won’t have do combat revamp again and go toward hybrid combat that leans to tab target based combat with split body combat animations which means the game is not action based at this moment, so which also means we can discuss about to add action elements to Ashes of Creation but you guys need to really understand what is fun what is too much, don't waste dev team's time and life to test those false thoughts about action elements seems fun and easy and reasonable but to most players hard to enter and feel the joy to play with friends that because most players play MMORPG for exploring a different world and connect to other players and have fun and chill instead of practice aiming skills to meet a baseline in order to join game contents and play with others or friends and won't ruining the experience then everybody end up leaving the game and then the game dies.
Again take the root combat animations as a lesson, think more and far and open and make compromises stop waste devs team's time and life again and again, give some respect to them.
↓Good youtube channel to learn things about creating games.↓
Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1DvRY5PyHHt3KN9ghunuw