There is no such thing as "not worth it" only "can I do it".
Of course there's a balance of gain vs risk any player makes when making any decision and if griefing represents too big of a setback they just won't do it.
But once we go beyond hardcore, into the super sweats, the 30hr straight ritalin gamer, the four multibox account gamer, the rogue that sat in Steemwheedle Port all day just waiting to kill anyone doing the 25 minute escort quest just to waste their time. These player live to overcome and even abuse any system trying to stop them.
The people you just described are the top level min-maxers and if griefing doesn't get them good results in the competitive setting of the game they just won't do it.
As I said we have no reason so far to believe the system is cracked and that people will get around it in any significant enough amounts that it will represent a serious problem.
If the system is too leniant or people find abuses, the system can always be buffed and fixed.
I don't care for PvP. But i understand that it will be part of the game. Maybe look more into the game before you post
Not sure why you would play Ashes if you don't care about PvP at all seeing as it is 80% of the game.
But it's not. I'm quite certain you can play a big part of the game, without PvP, or atleast open world PvP. Sieges is another thing. That is more like battlegrounds, plus i would proberly only do siege, if it was to defend a node i was part of. I don't have to attack someone that takes i resource i wanted. I have played mmo's where only 1 person could harvest a resource. I don't have to be part of caravans. I can level my character(s). Do crafting/gathering/refining, without having to do pvp. Dungeons, raids. I don't see how you can say it's 80% of the game. Plus I have said before, i'm not sure the game is for me. I'll give it a try, and see how it is
I'm going to play on a pvp server either way, but I don't understand the vitriol against the idea of pve servers. If you're going to play on a pvp server it literally won't affect you at all that they exist. The game mechanics would work just fine without open world pvp. It wont have as competitive of an economy, and it will probably be less exciting, but some people would prefer it and that's fine. The kind of people who want to play on a pve server wont last in AoC as it stands anyways so it isn't going to affect population.
Like I said I'm not going to play on a pve server even if they exist but some people seem way too angry about the idea. If adding pve servers helped the game keep more players and be more successful so that we can get more expansions, I'm all for it. It's not going to affect me at all.
Did you skip over the post at the top about how a PvE server wouldn't work with a game like ashes or are you just ignoring it?
I've responded to it many times, or are you ignoring that?
I'm going to play on a pvp server either way, but I don't understand the vitriol against the idea of pve servers. If you're going to play on a pvp server it literally won't affect you at all that they exist. The game mechanics would work just fine without open world pvp. It wont have as competitive of an economy, and it will probably be less exciting, but some people would prefer it and that's fine. The kind of people who want to play on a pve server wont last in AoC as it stands anyways so it isn't going to affect population.
Like I said I'm not going to play on a pve server even if they exist but some people seem way too angry about the idea. If adding pve servers helped the game keep more players and be more successful so that we can get more expansions, I'm all for it. It's not going to affect me at all.
Did you skip over the post at the top about how a PvE server wouldn't work with a game like ashes or are you just ignoring it?
Theres only one post like that above my post you quoted, and it's a one sentence opinion with no supporting data or examples.
I already made a follow up post about that as well, which I guess you ignored. But in short, I disagree with the notion that a pve server just "wouldn't work", with pve server being the type outlined in this thread as having disabled owpvp but all of the other pvp systems in place.
Yes, that means ow bosses would be often be dps races, although I think guild wars could help provide a solution here. Yes, this means gatherables will be contested by clicking on them first instead of fighting over them. No, I dont want to play on a server like that. But no one is forcing me to, and if enough people did want to put up with those headaches to make it worth IS adding pve servers, these servers would still "work", they would just have different frustrations for a different audience.
I don't care for PvP. But i understand that it will be part of the game. Maybe look more into the game before you post
Not sure why you would play Ashes if you don't care about PvP at all seeing as it is 80% of the game.
But it's not. I'm quite certain you can play a big part of the game, without PvP, or atleast open world PvP. Sieges is another thing. That is more like battlegrounds, plus i would proberly only do siege, if it was to defend a node i was part of. I don't have to attack someone that takes i resource i wanted. I have played mmo's where only 1 person could harvest a resource. I don't have to be part of caravans. I can level my character(s). Do crafting/gathering/refining, without having to do pvp. Dungeons, raids. I don't see how you can say it's 80% of the game. Plus I have said before, i'm not sure the game is for me. I'll give it a try, and see how it is
The 80/20 split refers to instanced content. There is a small amount of pure PvE content in the game. The vast majority of PvE content has major PvP aspects, making that content PvX. PvP content does not have major PvE content. Node/castle sieges are not PvE, Caravans are not PvE, Arenas are not PvE. I would also say open world ganking and naval combat are not PvE but that might not be true.
If you only want to PvP, Ashes can provide that for you, sure you need to get to max level but most hardcore players will be able to do that within a couple weeks or at the very least a single month. I don't count leveling as a very large part of the game when MMOs are meant to be played for months/years.
If you only want to PvE, it might be possible, but you are very likely going to be forced to PvP seeing as all the important PvE content is also PvP orientated.
If the combat feels really deep, I'll probably spend more than 80% of my time doing arenas. There is genuinely zero PvE involved in that so even if I hate PvE, I can still enjoy the game. But if a player hates PvP? What content is there for them to do? Instanced dungeons that don't even provide good loot?
This again? No. The game is not designed to not have PVP. No PVE servers.
Game is designed around having PvP.
PvE servers still have PvP.
PvE servers bad.
The logic, it's flawless.
The game is designed around competition between nodes. Competition between nodes require the ability to fight one another for resources. Taking PvP out of the equation for killing gatherers in the open world is a big deal. Accept that this game isnt for you if you want to play on a PVE server.
This again? No. The game is not designed to not have PVP. No PVE servers.
Game is designed around having PvP.
PvE servers still have PvP.
PvE servers bad.
The logic, it's flawless.
The game is designed around competition between nodes. Competition between nodes require the ability to fight one another for resources. Taking PvP out of the equation for killing gatherers in the open world is a big deal. Accept that this game isnt for you if you want to play on a PVE server.
I think a PvE server would just boil that competition down to node seiges. Generally a PvE player doesn't mind objective based PvP, It just open world ganking they don't enjoy.
This again? No. The game is not designed to not have PVP. No PVE servers.
Game is designed around having PvP.
PvE servers still have PvP.
PvE servers bad.
The logic, it's flawless.
The game is designed around competition between nodes. Competition between nodes require the ability to fight one another for resources. Taking PvP out of the equation for killing gatherers in the open world is a big deal. Accept that this game isnt for you if you want to play on a PVE server.
I think a PvE server would just boil that competition down to node seiges. Generally a PvE player doesn't mind objective based PvP, It just open world ganking they don't enjoy.
Sure, but taking out a large chunk of resource competition/defense between nodes is a big factor. Not to mention, changing one of the games main selling points being a pvx game, it'd be spitting in many players faces at this point to change it to pvp and pve servers.
Caravans are still a faster way of transporting more items. That is still useful in PvE servers. Sure people could just carry stuff around but if you want to spend 100 more hours doing something than that is a big tradeoff.
I suggest you spend some time viewing some of the early videos about the vision/spirit of this game. You clearly do not understand. You do have a lot of energy. I respect that.
Again you keep harping on the same talking points which shows you really haven't either understood how Intrepid want to implement corruption or willfully don't want to know because you want risk free PvE so much. It's not going to happen mate.
As a backer etc having separate PvP and PvE is not what I signed up for and I'm sure other backers would be super pissed about such a direction change away from PvX.
go read this https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Corruption
And you want it changed before it's even been field tested by the Alpha 2 testers?
other backers would be super pissed about such a direction change away from PvX.
Idk why you're just saying something false with such confidence.
It's not "a direction change away from PvX"
That's like saying if we add another flavor of Coca Cola, that we're somehow removing the original Coca Cola. More variety doesn't remove or change the original in any way. If you don't understand that basic concept idk what to say man.
If you just hate PvE players or something and don't want them in the same community as you, why don't you just have the balls to say that. Nothing wrong with being honest.
That's like saying if we add another flavor of Coca Cola, that we're somehow removing the original Coca Cola. More variety doesn't remove or change the original in any way. If you don't understand that basic concept idk what to say man.
Except in the predominant cases of "pvp and pve servers" games, the "new taste" of cola pushes the original one out of the market, which makes the company push that new taste even more because it's way more profitable. And then the whole branding is built around this new taste rather than the original one.
Assigning thoughts and feelings to someone who didn't actually say those things, alrighty then. Project more.
I gave my opinion that I think separating out PvP and PvE leads to why people are so disappointed in MMO's these days and wanting to change something that as yet has not been subjected to player tested is literally pointless.
I don't hate people who like to only play PvE, I get why.
I think it's boring as hell and there are other games to go play to have that. So go play those. Doesn't mean Intrepid need to change their core systems to appease those players as there seems to be a heap of support what they have stated their goals to be for the game.
Idk why you're just saying something false with such confidence.
It's not "a direction change away from PvX"
That's like saying if we add another flavor of Coca Cola, that we're somehow removing the original Coca Cola. More variety doesn't remove or change the original in any way. If you don't understand that basic concept idk what to say man.
If you just hate PvE players or something and don't want them in the same community as you, why don't you just have the balls to say that. Nothing wrong with being honest.
But if a player hates PvP? What content is there for them to do? Instanced dungeons that don't even provide good loot?
Many of my friends are curious of this project, and said they could give a try.
Also, large part of them dislike PvP...
Solution ? i honestly said to them "this game will be open world PvP, no instance PvE content, you will dislike the game" . They won't play it. is it a tragedy ? no.
other backers would be super pissed about such a direction change away from PvX.
Idk why you're just saying something false with such confidence.
It's not "a direction change away from PvX"
That's like saying if we add another flavor of Coca Cola, that we're somehow removing the original Coca Cola. More variety doesn't remove or change the original in any way. If you don't understand that basic concept idk what to say man.
If you just hate PvE players or something and don't want them in the same community as you, why don't you just have the balls to say that. Nothing wrong with being honest.
Guess you forgot my apex example, why don't you just play WoW if you want that experience or lost ark
That's like saying if we add another flavor of Coca Cola, that we're somehow removing the original Coca Cola. More variety doesn't remove or change the original in any way. If you don't understand that basic concept idk what to say man.
If you just hate PvE players or something and don't want them in the same community as you, why don't you just have the balls to say that. Nothing wrong with being honest.
But... it doesn't take much to place a different flavor of drink in a can with a different brand.
It does take a significant amount of effort to maintain and balance the various paths of progression that Ashes offers with PvE servers as well as PvP servers. Especially when the mobs and world bosses are designed to be contested with PvP.
That's like saying if we add another flavor of Coca Cola, that we're somehow removing the original Coca Cola. More variety doesn't remove or change the original in any way. If you don't understand that basic concept idk what to say man.
Except in the predominant cases of "pvp and pve servers" games, the "new taste" of cola pushes the original one out of the market, which makes the company push that new taste even more because it's way more profitable. And then the whole branding is built around this new taste rather than the original one.
So your argument is that we shouldn't provide more options, because it turns out our original version might be worse than the alternative.
That's like saying if we add another flavor of Coca Cola, that we're somehow removing the original Coca Cola. More variety doesn't remove or change the original in any way. If you don't understand that basic concept idk what to say man.
Except in the predominant cases of "pvp and pve servers" games, the "new taste" of cola pushes the original one out of the market, which makes the company push that new taste even more because it's way more profitable. And then the whole branding is built around this new taste rather than the original one.
So your argument is that we shouldn't provide more options, because it turns out our original version might be worse than the alternative.
If one design of gameplay is desired by the developers, why would they provide an easier version of it that players would abandon the original for simply because it's easier?
That's like saying if we add another flavor of Coca Cola, that we're somehow removing the original Coca Cola. More variety doesn't remove or change the original in any way. If you don't understand that basic concept idk what to say man.
Except in the predominant cases of "pvp and pve servers" games, the "new taste" of cola pushes the original one out of the market, which makes the company push that new taste even more because it's way more profitable. And then the whole branding is built around this new taste rather than the original one.
So your argument is that we shouldn't provide more options, because it turns out our original version might be worse than the alternative.
If one design of gameplay is desired by the developers, why would they provide an easier version of it that players would abandon the original for simply because it's easier?
That's like saying if we add another flavor of Coca Cola, that we're somehow removing the original Coca Cola. More variety doesn't remove or change the original in any way. If you don't understand that basic concept idk what to say man.
Except in the predominant cases of "pvp and pve servers" games, the "new taste" of cola pushes the original one out of the market, which makes the company push that new taste even more because it's way more profitable. And then the whole branding is built around this new taste rather than the original one.
So your argument is that we shouldn't provide more options, because it turns out our original version might be worse than the alternative.
If one design of gameplay is desired by the developers, why would they provide an easier version of it that players would abandon the original for simply because it's easier?
That had nothing to do with anything I said.
Still waiting for you to argue changing apex legends design lol.
That's like saying if we add another flavor of Coca Cola, that we're somehow removing the original Coca Cola. More variety doesn't remove or change the original in any way. If you don't understand that basic concept idk what to say man.
Except in the predominant cases of "pvp and pve servers" games, the "new taste" of cola pushes the original one out of the market, which makes the company push that new taste even more because it's way more profitable. And then the whole branding is built around this new taste rather than the original one.
So your argument is that we shouldn't provide more options, because it turns out our original version might be worse than the alternative.
If one design of gameplay is desired by the developers, why would they provide an easier version of it that players would abandon the original for simply because it's easier?
That had nothing to do with anything I said.
It's an argument of why there shouldn't be options for either pve or pvp
If one design of gameplay is desired by the developers, why would they provide an easier version of it that players would abandon the original for simply because it's easier?
The problem is often people have their own idea of what a "perfect game would be" (as sapiverenus recently) but also, "what the game should do to have more people"...
The first forgot that this is their taste.
The second forget that a game does not need to aim 10m subscriber to be successfull.
Here, we are on the second case "Ashes should have PvE server, to please pure PvE players" ... But the first questions the devs asked themselves was "do we want to have our game to fit pure PvE players taste".
Worddog : Try to understand WHY the decisions for this game are made the way they are on wiki before suggesting to change thing.
Sure wow did PvE and PvP server, because the game was mostly PvE in mind, and even in PvP server, the PvP had a low weight in player's activity, it remains more a side content. Also, in vanilla there was two way to get stuffed : dungeons and raids OR PvP ranking. The server you went in just showed the kind of stuff you would prefer to farm. but even in PvP server you could do instanced content, and the battleground remained a really good spot to farm PvP rank. There were no system where pvp was mandatory, or where PvP had big impact (even for gathering, the open world pvp was not a real problem)
On ashes, the game is developped and thought with this totally free PvP in mind. removing it will change how the people experienced the world, the game. Even without changing anything else in the game, it will be a different game.
And then ? the feedback from PvP and PvE servers people will focus on different thing, due to game being different. And a change that could be a good change on one side could also be a bad change for the other... And here is where things becomes a big deal for devs.
Comments
Of course there's a balance of gain vs risk any player makes when making any decision and if griefing represents too big of a setback they just won't do it.
If the incentive is serious enough, they just won't do it, not in any amount significant enough to represent a problem.
The people you just described are the top level min-maxers and if griefing doesn't get them good results in the competitive setting of the game they just won't do it.
As I said we have no reason so far to believe the system is cracked and that people will get around it in any significant enough amounts that it will represent a serious problem.
If the system is too leniant or people find abuses, the system can always be buffed and fixed.
But it's not. I'm quite certain you can play a big part of the game, without PvP, or atleast open world PvP. Sieges is another thing. That is more like battlegrounds, plus i would proberly only do siege, if it was to defend a node i was part of. I don't have to attack someone that takes i resource i wanted. I have played mmo's where only 1 person could harvest a resource. I don't have to be part of caravans. I can level my character(s). Do crafting/gathering/refining, without having to do pvp. Dungeons, raids. I don't see how you can say it's 80% of the game. Plus I have said before, i'm not sure the game is for me. I'll give it a try, and see how it is
I've responded to it many times, or are you ignoring that?
Theres only one post like that above my post you quoted, and it's a one sentence opinion with no supporting data or examples.
I already made a follow up post about that as well, which I guess you ignored. But in short, I disagree with the notion that a pve server just "wouldn't work", with pve server being the type outlined in this thread as having disabled owpvp but all of the other pvp systems in place.
Yes, that means ow bosses would be often be dps races, although I think guild wars could help provide a solution here. Yes, this means gatherables will be contested by clicking on them first instead of fighting over them. No, I dont want to play on a server like that. But no one is forcing me to, and if enough people did want to put up with those headaches to make it worth IS adding pve servers, these servers would still "work", they would just have different frustrations for a different audience.
The 80/20 split refers to instanced content. There is a small amount of pure PvE content in the game. The vast majority of PvE content has major PvP aspects, making that content PvX. PvP content does not have major PvE content. Node/castle sieges are not PvE, Caravans are not PvE, Arenas are not PvE. I would also say open world ganking and naval combat are not PvE but that might not be true.
If you only want to PvP, Ashes can provide that for you, sure you need to get to max level but most hardcore players will be able to do that within a couple weeks or at the very least a single month. I don't count leveling as a very large part of the game when MMOs are meant to be played for months/years.
If you only want to PvE, it might be possible, but you are very likely going to be forced to PvP seeing as all the important PvE content is also PvP orientated.
If the combat feels really deep, I'll probably spend more than 80% of my time doing arenas. There is genuinely zero PvE involved in that so even if I hate PvE, I can still enjoy the game. But if a player hates PvP? What content is there for them to do? Instanced dungeons that don't even provide good loot?
Game is designed around having PvP.
PvE servers still have PvP.
PvE servers bad.
The logic, it's flawless.
The game is designed around competition between nodes. Competition between nodes require the ability to fight one another for resources. Taking PvP out of the equation for killing gatherers in the open world is a big deal. Accept that this game isnt for you if you want to play on a PVE server.
This is your logic, they need to remove pvp from apex legends so people can kill mobs.
Are there mobs in apex legends?
Yup
Thats cool do they drop items and stuff like alternatives to crates/chests?
yup
I think a PvE server would just boil that competition down to node seiges. Generally a PvE player doesn't mind objective based PvP, It just open world ganking they don't enjoy.
Sure, but taking out a large chunk of resource competition/defense between nodes is a big factor. Not to mention, changing one of the games main selling points being a pvx game, it'd be spitting in many players faces at this point to change it to pvp and pve servers.
I suggest you spend some time viewing some of the early videos about the vision/spirit of this game. You clearly do not understand. You do have a lot of energy. I respect that.
As a backer etc having separate PvP and PvE is not what I signed up for and I'm sure other backers would be super pissed about such a direction change away from PvX.
go read this
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Corruption
And you want it changed before it's even been field tested by the Alpha 2 testers?
Idk why you're just saying something false with such confidence.
It's not "a direction change away from PvX"
That's like saying if we add another flavor of Coca Cola, that we're somehow removing the original Coca Cola. More variety doesn't remove or change the original in any way. If you don't understand that basic concept idk what to say man.
If you just hate PvE players or something and don't want them in the same community as you, why don't you just have the balls to say that. Nothing wrong with being honest.
I gave my opinion that I think separating out PvP and PvE leads to why people are so disappointed in MMO's these days and wanting to change something that as yet has not been subjected to player tested is literally pointless.
I don't hate people who like to only play PvE, I get why.
I think it's boring as hell and there are other games to go play to have that. So go play those. Doesn't mean Intrepid need to change their core systems to appease those players as there seems to be a heap of support what they have stated their goals to be for the game.
^^
Many of my friends are curious of this project, and said they could give a try.
Also, large part of them dislike PvP...
Solution ? i honestly said to them "this game will be open world PvP, no instance PvE content, you will dislike the game" . They won't play it. is it a tragedy ? no.
Guess you forgot my apex example, why don't you just play WoW if you want that experience or lost ark
It does take a significant amount of effort to maintain and balance the various paths of progression that Ashes offers with PvE servers as well as PvP servers. Especially when the mobs and world bosses are designed to be contested with PvP.
So your argument is that we shouldn't provide more options, because it turns out our original version might be worse than the alternative.
If one design of gameplay is desired by the developers, why would they provide an easier version of it that players would abandon the original for simply because it's easier?
That had nothing to do with anything I said.
Still waiting for you to argue changing apex legends design lol.
It's an argument of why there shouldn't be options for either pve or pvp
The problem is often people have their own idea of what a "perfect game would be" (as sapiverenus recently) but also, "what the game should do to have more people"...
The first forgot that this is their taste.
The second forget that a game does not need to aim 10m subscriber to be successfull.
Here, we are on the second case "Ashes should have PvE server, to please pure PvE players" ... But the first questions the devs asked themselves was "do we want to have our game to fit pure PvE players taste".
Worddog : Try to understand WHY the decisions for this game are made the way they are on wiki before suggesting to change thing.
Sure wow did PvE and PvP server, because the game was mostly PvE in mind, and even in PvP server, the PvP had a low weight in player's activity, it remains more a side content. Also, in vanilla there was two way to get stuffed : dungeons and raids OR PvP ranking. The server you went in just showed the kind of stuff you would prefer to farm. but even in PvP server you could do instanced content, and the battleground remained a really good spot to farm PvP rank. There were no system where pvp was mandatory, or where PvP had big impact (even for gathering, the open world pvp was not a real problem)
On ashes, the game is developped and thought with this totally free PvP in mind. removing it will change how the people experienced the world, the game. Even without changing anything else in the game, it will be a different game.
And then ? the feedback from PvP and PvE servers people will focus on different thing, due to game being different. And a change that could be a good change on one side could also be a bad change for the other... And here is where things becomes a big deal for devs.