Aggro/Threat mechanics don't work in PvX

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

What would a ultra defensive tank hard counter? Nothing because it can't kill anyone.

If only there were some sort of resource that an attacker could run out of when facing a target with too much defenses to be brought down before it ran out...

That might help a bit, I guess.

But alas, if BDO has taught me anything, it's that this sort of thing can't exist.

You play on Na right?

Indeed. Console no less. I'm one of those people.

why....ugh. No you are def trolling me. You have a pc

I don't want to argue with you. If you prefer to believe that I choose to play games on PC when I have a PS5, please continue to assume that.

For everyone else... I have a gaming laptop and a PS5 and I prefer to game on the PS5 whenever I have the option.

As I said. I'm one of those people.

But you are in the alpha for AoC so your gaming pc I'm sure is good enough to run things. Have you played on pc at all with BDO?

Sure. Just don't care. Why do you ask?

Are you willing to fight in BA on Pc?

Nope. Again, I'm one of those people. I form my opinions and then refuse to let other people try to change them by beating me up in a video game.

I learned my lesson long ago! Did you know that sometimes, even if someone says that they will show you a thing, and you utterly body them 12-0, they still don't concede the point and talk about other random stuff?

The nerve of some people.

I'm talking about Fighting Games in this case btw, of course, I know that I would never be able to do that to a true PC gamer.

Losing or winning doesn't change an opinion, just want to see how you play.

You say that, but can one even really 'see' anything in BDO PvP?

I'm assuming of course that you're referring to my decision making and not to my actual physical execution ability, but I play Succession Kuno so it's not like that matters either.

If you'd like a play demo I had it in some thread somewhere back but that was a PvE fight against Dim Tree (Rift Boss version no less) so it's probably not worth it anyway, after all, PvE skill doesn't tell you anything about what a person can do in PvP, particularly not in BDO.

I want to see pvp and a actual fight and live not a old video or such. Though as rusty as i am id be willing to fight you in soul calibur (on pc). It isn't really about beating ya but I just want to see how you preform. You can learn a lot through conflict and competition.

Though from your words i do feel some passion in them, though could be me over reading things and i could be completely wrong.

I'm really surprised that I've managed to do so well at not being clear how serious I am about these things. I guess I'm blending in pretty well with all the other people who talk about what they do or what they can do but possibly don't actually have the skills they claim?

Anyways I feel like that would be a kinda weird experience since I've watched literally hours of your match footage and I have a savant skill for analysing weaknesses/holes in someone's fighting style, not to mention that I can discuss it with people who actually were involved in a few of the matches.

If I lost it'd be because I don't play Soul Calibur, if I won it'd be because I already know the exact timing for whiff punishing both of your primary feints. The only thing you'd learn about me is what you know already. I'm incredibly analytical but also have no patience and get frustrated easily by those who aim to win by not engaging.

I'd love for you to try to punish me, because than I'd feel like i actually need to try its an amazing feeling. But I honestly don't see that happening and getting that fire lit in me. Last person was a competitive player and it was pretty fun.

I don't see any reason to watch that gameplay of mine though, from youtube which would be the closest to hours worth.

That gameplay was from the beta and I didn't know the command list so it was just the bits i learned from playing o.o. Whatever you learned from that wouldn't help you against me.

Me when i take someone serious though i change my style multiple times, i got levels.

I watched it back then because I hoped to find some specific point where I could discuss with you 'why Frame Data matters' since you don't really think it does. So yeah, that has nothing to do with it.

I'm actually really surprised that Siegfried's command list didn't carry over from SC5 to SC6 well enough for you to just know how to play him automatically, but honestly I'm having the same problem in SF6 now. Chun's stuff is all different and weird and harder for no reason half the time.

Capcom Plz.

Mag7spy

Well atleast you have a new fighting game to enjoy,, I'm a one trick pony and only play soul calibur so I get nothing except playing a old dead fighting game time to time just cause i have fun.

Depraved

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

What would a ultra defensive tank hard counter? Nothing because it can't kill anyone.

If only there were some sort of resource that an attacker could run out of when facing a target with too much defenses to be brought down before it ran out...

That might help a bit, I guess.

But alas, if BDO has taught me anything, it's that this sort of thing can't exist.

You play on Na right?

Indeed. Console no less. I'm one of those people.

why....ugh. No you are def trolling me. You have a pc

I don't want to argue with you. If you prefer to believe that I choose to play games on PC when I have a PS5, please continue to assume that.

For everyone else... I have a gaming laptop and a PS5 and I prefer to game on the PS5 whenever I have the option.

As I said. I'm one of those people.

ewwww you are one of those guys T_T

Mag7spy wrote: »

Well atleast you have a new fighting game to enjoy,, I'm a one trick pony and only play soul calibur so I get nothing except playing a old dead fighting game time to time just cause i have fun.

idk, SF6 is moreso work for me since I gotta develop all my team's resources and prepare stream content and so on, and all the 'congrats we've made your main character even harder now and explicitly made your muscle memory not carry over' is kinda rough.

I'm glad you got some games with Enders, though, he's pretty fun, and kinda parallels you, right? Since he only really got into fighting games seriously with SC6. He's worked really hard.

Depraved wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

What would a ultra defensive tank hard counter? Nothing because it can't kill anyone.

If only there were some sort of resource that an attacker could run out of when facing a target with too much defenses to be brought down before it ran out...

That might help a bit, I guess.

But alas, if BDO has taught me anything, it's that this sort of thing can't exist.

You play on Na right?

Indeed. Console no less. I'm one of those people.

why....ugh. No you are def trolling me. You have a pc

I don't want to argue with you. If you prefer to believe that I choose to play games on PC when I have a PS5, please continue to assume that.

For everyone else... I have a gaming laptop and a PS5 and I prefer to game on the PS5 whenever I have the option.

As I said. I'm one of those people.

ewwww you are one of those guys T_T

Indeed I am. I even played Ashes Alpha-1 with a Dualshock Controller.

Console when?

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Well atleast you have a new fighting game to enjoy,, I'm a one trick pony and only play soul calibur so I get nothing except playing a old dead fighting game time to time just cause i have fun.

idk, SF6 is moreso work for me since I gotta develop all my team's resources and prepare stream content and so on, and all the 'congrats we've made your main character even harder now and explicitly made your muscle memory not carry over' is kinda rough.

I'm glad you got some games with Enders, though, he's pretty fun, and kinda parallels you, right? Since he only really got into fighting games seriously with SC6. He's worked really hard.

I don't know his history tbh, my friend was just like fight my friend (felt like he was bringing his big brother) since my friend mainly played tekken competitive and not so much soul calibur. Was second when i realized i need the try hard pants on and he is definitely better than me. I only managed to beat him a few times lol. Though if i had enough time playing I would have adapted more so, either way still a blessing. I mostly just get kicked out of the few rooms on the game by people and told I'm smurfing cause they dont know I'm from xbox lol.

Zyllos

NiKr wrote: »

Zyllos wrote: »

The fact that they debuff a single target (and sometimes AoE, depending) while dealing damage, slowing the target, just being hell to the target they are attacking, might make them actually become a target, which is kind of the point of the idea.

It's not forced, but it at least makes a Tank almost *act* like a tank in that it wants enemies to target him over others.

By that definition, any support class with even just a few debuffs "acts" like a tank. This is exactly why we've been saying that tank should feel more unique.

I think this depends on the debuffing class. If the debuffing class also deals a ton of damage and their debuffs reduces DPS, just like taunt, then you are correct.

The difference happens with Taunt being a very strong debuff for any taunted target. I would go as far as to say a Taunt is the strongest debuff in the game. It's just one you can ignore if you attack the Taunting Tank, hence cause the Tank to take hits from the Taunted target.

A debuffing class, their debuffs are not as strong, but more varied and can apply to specific stats, also are always working if on the target.

A Taunt is the single strongest debuff for damage in the game, but it can be ignored if you don't have the Taunt debuff -OR- have the Taunt debuff but NOT maximum on the Threat Meter or you are the top of the Thread Meter AND target the Tank.

Zyllos wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Zyllos wrote: »

The fact that they debuff a single target (and sometimes AoE, depending) while dealing damage, slowing the target, just being hell to the target they are attacking, might make them actually become a target, which is kind of the point of the idea.

It's not forced, but it at least makes a Tank almost *act* like a tank in that it wants enemies to target him over others.

By that definition, any support class with even just a few debuffs "acts" like a tank. This is exactly why we've been saying that tank should feel more unique.

I think this depends on the debuffing class. If the debuffing class also deals a ton of damage and their debuffs reduces DPS, just like taunt, then you are correct.

The difference happens with Taunt being a very strong debuff for any taunted target. I would go as far as to say a Taunt is the strongest debuff in the game. It's just one you can ignore if you attack the Taunting Tank, hence cause the Tank to take hits from the Taunted target.

A debuffing class, their debuffs are not as strong, but more varied and can apply to specific stats, also are always working if on the target.

A Taunt is the single strongest debuff for damage in the game, but it can be ignored if you are NOT maximum on the Threat Meter or you are the top of the Thread Meter AND target the Tank.

Which reminds me to clarify @NiKr that one of the things that really helps with making this work 'the same as PvE' and seems to make most of my 'focus group' happy is:

Threat is still measured for players the same way as for mobs, and the empowerment scales by how much threat the Paladin has on the target (with the Mark itself being as powerful as what you'd expect a Taunt's enmity spike to be).

So if the Paladin just 'randomly Marks a target' in order to get, say, Cooldown Reduction (the general best choice for a game like Ashes as example) when they know that target will be taking a lot of actions or avoiding them, and then try to use that CDR on someone else instead, the CDR scales poorly and they don't get much out of it (assume they get one 'tick' of benefit from the Mark every few seconds the target goes without hitting them, but it's not much until they have high Enmity on that target).

So they end up playing the same way as in PvE. They want max hate built on their Marked target so that they get the max benefit whenever that target isn't attacking them. The Target in turn wants to hit them to 'reduce it' to lessen the CDR benefit.

Combine with a Tank Archetype that has only a reasonable amount of damage skills, and is instead benefitting from CDR damage reduction. If they mark you, every time you attack the person they want to protect, they hit you more or defend that person more (possibly even from teammates).

As you can see, it is perfect.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Well atleast you have a new fighting game to enjoy,, I'm a one trick pony and only play soul calibur so I get nothing except playing a old dead fighting game time to time just cause i have fun.

idk, SF6 is moreso work for me since I gotta develop all my team's resources and prepare stream content and so on, and all the 'congrats we've made your main character even harder now and explicitly made your muscle memory not carry over' is kinda rough.

I'm glad you got some games with Enders, though, he's pretty fun, and kinda parallels you, right? Since he only really got into fighting games seriously with SC6. He's worked really hard.

I don't know his history tbh, my friend was just like fight my friend (felt like he was bringing his big brother) since my friend mainly played tekken competitive and not so much soul calibur. Was second when i realized i need the try hard pants on and he is definitely better than me. I only managed to beat him a few times lol. Though if i had enough time playing I would have adapted more so, either way still a blessing. I mostly just get kicked out of the few rooms on the game by people and told I'm smurfing cause they dont know I'm from xbox lol.

It's always good to get matches with the top players. It's a privilege I'm very thankful for.

But since my focus is usually on helping casual players to understand how to play more effectively, I usually can't gain from it if I aim to actually keep up with them myself. I leave that to other team members and just try to keep up with them.

As long as the top are willing to play you at all, you're still in a good spot, so I hope you get more games with Enders, Link, etc.

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Well atleast you have a new fighting game to enjoy,, I'm a one trick pony and only play soul calibur so I get nothing except playing a old dead fighting game time to time just cause i have fun.

idk, SF6 is moreso work for me since I gotta develop all my team's resources and prepare stream content and so on, and all the 'congrats we've made your main character even harder now and explicitly made your muscle memory not carry over' is kinda rough.

I'm glad you got some games with Enders, though, he's pretty fun, and kinda parallels you, right? Since he only really got into fighting games seriously with SC6. He's worked really hard.

I don't know his history tbh, my friend was just like fight my friend (felt like he was bringing his big brother) since my friend mainly played tekken competitive and not so much soul calibur. Was second when i realized i need the try hard pants on and he is definitely better than me. I only managed to beat him a few times lol. Though if i had enough time playing I would have adapted more so, either way still a blessing. I mostly just get kicked out of the few rooms on the game by people and told I'm smurfing cause they dont know I'm from xbox lol.

It's always good to get matches with the top players. It's a privilege I'm very thankful for.

But since my focus is usually on helping casual players to understand how to play more effectively, I usually can't gain from it if I aim to actually keep up with them myself. I leave that to other team members and just try to keep up with them.

As long as the top are willing to play you at all, you're still in a good spot, so I hope you get more games with Enders, Link, etc.

Maybe if the next soul calibur comes out and not in another 8 years from now lmao.

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

If you have a strong type mark abilities that is also meant to stop them from getting away it can prevent movement type skills.

That is a answer to any assumption you just teleport out and come back into the fight. Could be mis understanding if you are meaning something else...

Unless we have a very shallow buff/debuff pool of abilities, any slow/root debuff will be probably cleansable by a specific cleanse of their type and by a general one. And considering that we're talking about the highest dpser of your party - you're definitely spending your cleanse CD on him if it means more dps against the enemy.

Also, I'd imagine that forced movement will go through roots. As in, if you get rooted but then someone else pushes you - you'll move, while still remaining in roots. I could be wrong in that assumption, though this would yet again make the game shallower than I'd like it to be.

Oh, and any full immobilization (stun/anchor/etc) would obviously prevent dps in the first place, so its coupling with the Mark wouldn't really matter.

Neurath wrote: »

Never have I been able to drain an enemy of resources on any of my raid spec tanks before my raid spec tank was ignored.

I mean, is that not the very problem we've been trying to solve here this entire time? Your top of the line tank didn't deserve enough attention to make someone spend most of their resources on you rather than your mates.

Or did I misread/misunderstood what you wrote?

You've hit the nail on the head mate. From my view point certain elements in the thread want the raid tanks to be viable in both pve and pvp without a respec. That is the issue I have with the stances. A raid tank is built to raid, not to pvp. You can build a tank to pvp with but not for pve. What you can't do is build a pvx spec because the balance is screamed for in pvx.

Azherae wrote: »

As you can see, it is perfect.

This kinda sounds like the AP mechanic from ff11 (if I understand both correctly), which would definitely explain why your group likes it and why it's similar to pve, because ff11's pve is pvp-similar.

If the base strength of the Mark's effect (and scaling with each tick) is somewhat weak, then it seems like a game of cat and mouse between the Marked and the tank would be the best course of action for the victim. That would definitely alleviate the outgoing dps (unless that Marked player is a ranger with a shortbow), but would still be more of a tank avoidance than direct interaction.

The overall system would obviously highly depend on tank timings and CDs on important abilities (in the context of CDR application of the Mark), but imo this would still be somewhat low on the annoyance scale to really concentrate on the tank.

Neurath wrote: »

You've hit the nail on the head mate. From my view point certain elements in the thread want the raid tanks to be viable in both pve and pvp without a respec. That is the issue I have with the stances. A raid tank is built to raid, not to pvp. You can build a tank to pvp with but not for pve. What you can't do is build a pvx spec because the balance is screamed for in pvx.

I don't quite understand the last sentence. Especially in the context of my L2 experience where you'd only really have one build for your character (outside of maybe elemental resistances) which worked in pvx rather then in separate situations.

And Steven has already said that there wouldn't be a separation between pve and pvp gear. Obviously people will still try to create their own separate builds, but I'd assume that Intrepid will aim at either making pve similar to pvp in mechanics/features or the other way around, which would in turn allow people to just have one build with just a few small changes to fit the current encounter. And that's one of the reasons why I'm pushing for a pvx tank this much.

A tank in l2 did decent damage in top gear. Hence my push for balance on damage and defence. You are in contestation with people who want a pve tank to be viable in pvp. That's without the pvx tag added by the way. It doesn't come down to pvp/pve gear. It comes down to the class skills and right now the class skills are pvx on the tank in Ashes.

Neurath wrote: »

A tank in l2 did decent damage in top gear.

I mean, top in terms of OEd to all hell? Cause outside of later updates that added some dps capabilities to tanks, I would only really do good-to-big damage against someone weaker-geared. If I was fighting someone in equal tier gear - it would either be a fight until they run out of mana (if they don't run/tp away) in 1v1 and general avoidance in party pvp, outside of the very taunt I'm trying to push here

And I started playing L2 tanks because of a video of a tank in great gear pwning people in weaker gear during the times where "proper" party setups weren't as well-established as they became later on. And btw, I played the DE tank, which was usually considered the highest dps tank class (or at least on the same lvl as DA with his panther).

There are disparities between what you are requesting and what I am stating. I want the tank to have plausible dps on equal terms. That does not mean giving the tank a mages skill set, a healers skillset or a support role. It means building on the pvx tank in l2 which Steven is fond of thank the sandal God.

Naturally, anyone in top gear will stomp lower geared players. It's not for the tank to be the hard counter for all corruption based kills. Its for the tank to be versatile in pvx and a hard counter for whatever they hard counter. What we don't want is every tank being forced into raid mode just to have a forced target taunt.

Neurath wrote: »

What we don't want is every tank being forced into raid mode just to have a forced target taunt.

Guess we can only agree to disagree on that point then. Cause I want the tank to be its own thing that works pretty much the same way and has the same goal across the pvx experience. That means either making pve super similar to pvp, mechanically, or giving the tank abilities that work very similarly in both.

I want the same for the tank. My threat stacks would be better suited to the task unless threat is removed from all of the tanks skills and replaced by taunts. It will make the tank a technical marvel in pve and pvx rather than a gimmicky mcgimmack tab build for a hybrid combat system.

A forced target taunt looks and works well for tab target. It's not so good for action camera. I believe Steven will do forced target like he discussed in the livestream after the tank thread. I had just hoped to show that better methods are available.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

As you can see, it is perfect.

This kinda sounds like the AP mechanic from ff11 (if I understand both correctly), which would definitely explain why your group likes it and why it's similar to pve, because ff11's pve is pvp-similar.

If the base strength of the Mark's effect (and scaling with each tick) is somewhat weak, then it seems like a game of cat and mouse between the Marked and the tank would be the best course of action for the victim. That would definitely alleviate the outgoing dps (unless that Marked player is a ranger with a shortbow), but would still be more of a tank avoidance than direct interaction.

The overall system would obviously highly depend on tank timings and CDs on important abilities (in the context of CDR application of the Mark), but imo this would still be somewhat low on the annoyance scale to really concentrate on the tank.

I'm actually not sure what you mean here by AP mechanic, did you mean TP?

If I've ever mentioned 'AP' it was probably in relation to my own design space, not FFXI.

Also you can code things such that 'moving away from the Tank' also builds Mark empowerment bonus, just not Enmity.

Y'know, if you were the type to ask your engineering team to do that in order to make the gameplay experience more enjoyable for players with certain preferences.

And of course you have clearly overlooked the fact that all the other abilities would be balanced to be a Fun Experience and definitely still effective and not overpowered because that's what Developers do. Don't you have faith?

I'm sure between them they have thousands of hours of class design over at Intrepid and it's probably nothing like 90% of projects where there's basically only two overworked battle/balance Designers who spend 6 hours a day looking at a spreadsheet.

You'd trust me to it, right? You should trust them tenfold. So the mechanic is still perfect, they just have to do everything else correctly and make a good fun engaging balanced kit that will make Tanks useful in PvP and they're done.