"Pain in ass" timesink but I maybe should have gone with PITA timesink (pain in the ass), however, I really wanted to avoid actually spelling out course language but that caravan has now left ...
"Pain in ass" but I maybe should have gone with PITA (pain in the ass), however, I really wanted to avoid actually spelling out course language but that caravan has now left ...
[*] How do you feel about the Caravan System Preview so far?
I am veeery satisfied with what i have seen already.
The Caravan as a Vehicle, reminded me a little bit of something. Years ago -> i played a Game with a formerly HUMONGOUS Number of Players,
named : Planetside 2.
The Caravan reminded of a particular Vehicle - called "The Sunderer".
A blocky Vehicle that is like a Mix between a Bus and a Truck. It can load up to like 12 Players - and deploy and function as a Spawnpoint.
It is not one of the "strongest" Ground Vehicles - but one of the tankiest.
The " Tank-Aspect " - the Caravan reminded me of it. It is good that the Caravan -> when being equipped with Stuff that is above the average, bare Caravan which is basically "naked" compared to the upgraded Vehicle,
the upgraded Caravan seems to be able to take a lot more Attacks, Punishment - and has neat ways of defending itself.
I am aware everything right now seems to be very unbalanced right now and a few things might need to be weakened and a few other things/details strengthened.
The Fact that the Player can choose that the "upgraded" Caravan-Wagon has TWO Horses instead of just One, is also a neat and realistic Detail of why it should be faster than the average Caravan-Wagon with just one Horse.
Seeing the Caravan move around, felt a lot like when in Planetside 2 a Player was moving a Sunderer. I like it a lot and i am looking forward to how neatly You will balance it out in the coming Future.
[*] What excites you about playing and interacting with the Caravan system?
It will depend very, very hard on how much active Players in the closer Vicinity will decide to "play" their Characters,
but i can imagine that " some " Caravans will only be able to reach their planned Destination with L~OOOTS of other Players around them protecting them,
while i can imagine in "other" Players the Caravan having a relatively easy Time with just a few Players protecting it, just like in this Presentation from a Day ago.
I am excited to interact with the Caravan System in - well - every possible way i can. From being the Driver of a Caravan-Wagon, up to being one of probably "many" People trying their very very best, to defend them.
Right now,
i just can't see me as being a Player who will attack a Caravan. Since the Game is not out yet -> and hence i have no one (other Players) who gave their best to make me their Enemy,
i can not imagine that i will anytime soon want to attack any Caravan of another Node - or maybe even Players from my own Node. ((( <- is that even possible ? )))
Right now - i imagine myself in the most likely Spot of being a Defender giving his best to protect it.
[*] Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Caravan System Preview?
I love to see, how it looks Piece by Piece, how the ingame World gets closer to being finished and ready for Release.
The Node they started from, was the same as from the Video One or Two Months ago, right ?
Plus " one " particular Place on the Road, looks like it was the very Place - where the "NPC-Caravan" was attacked formerly by a Group of Bandits.
Loved to see the Places again. They look beautiful. While i think i pr~OOObably saw a Road looking pretty much the same in two different Locations a few Minutes away from each other,
the ingame World looks mostly nicely hand-crafted and worked on, with much Love for the Detail of every single Dozens of Meters in the World.
Maybe it is just the Lighting of the Unreal Engine 5(?) Engine -> but this Game looks already totally wonderful.
I also have a more or less good even if tiny Impression just how vast even a single "Continent" of the few available is -> and even just a single Region inside of it.
Now this is nice. Even with +Plus Nine Thousand Players or so put onto a single Server - a single ingame World, there will be M~UUUCH Terroritory that is not constantly flooded and used by Players all the time. There will always be Room for PvE, Roleplay, enjoying the beautiful Ingame World and doing Events.
While i had a good, little hunch until now -> i can understand why this Game takes so immensely long to come and draw nearer to it's Completion for Release.
I must admit i love how it looks, like finally - FINALLY - a good Game that will feel grant and great, is about to see the Light of our World.
So many MMO's have always things they disappoint with. But with Ashes - it feels like Players will always have something "current" to do.
Something that will never feel outdated. From this single Preview - it looks like your amazing Game will manage just that.
Greatness is about to be made -> and i love every single Presentation of it.
[*] Do you have thoughts or feelings regarding some of the aspects of Caravans, such as Caravan components, Glint, Commodities, Exchange Rates, etc?
I feel like i will have a L~OOOT to learn about this, right now.
To be completely honest -> i feel and think, like MMO's in the last +5 Years were designed to make the Player feel lazy and not think to much.
( Especially World of Pay(war)craft )
I feel like i will have to pay close Attention, in Order to have a good Understanding and Oversight, of how to use Components, Glint, Commodities and Exchances Rates well.
Thankfully i think i will not be alone, but in a Guild - but damn i still think i need to sharpen my Focus in this Game to come,
my Focus which has somewhat dulled over the last Years.
Everyone here at Intrepid Studios looks forward to reading all the feedback you have to share!
And Thank You very much for that.
Right now, i think i have nothing great to mention for this Comment anymore, that i have already mentioned.
What could i like especially much on what i have seen in the Presentation ? What may i dislike ? Hard to say, to such an amazing Work still so deep and much in Development.
Hmm.
Maybe the "Push/Knock-back"(?) Ability that Sir Steven used - to push Enemy Attackers away from the Caravan, was WAAAAAAAYYYY to strong.
( It was funny that he could use that even on one of his Player-Allies. )
But while that Knockback was way to strong -> and send Enemy Attackers flying as if a Giant from the Elderscrolls Five Skyrim smacked them around,
i am confident that will be balanced in time as well.
Loved how there was " Fog " moving over the Ground in some Area's, where also some " Undead " where close by and one Skeleton Fighter(?) was seemingly attacking the Caravan for a short Moment,
very spooky - and i wonder if " mysteriously moving Fog over the Ground " could be an Indicator for undead Humanoids or Beings in generally being nearby,
or if this was just Coincidence and just a nice Weather- or Area-Effect.
One can not help but to notice - how the ingame World seems still so incredibly empty - due to no Players being inside it yet. But it looked nice and mostly "alive" already. It was a beautiful Presentation.
I reckon Stolen Glints should be able to be laundered at Black Market NPCs and then turned to Soul Bound Glints at a 50% conversion rate or so. Can't be performed whilst corrupt. After all, Stolen Glints occur with a PvE Death as well as a PvP Death. All it takes is the loot function.
Glint = Currency. Commodities = Sink. Gold = Currency. Trade = Faucet. Exact numbers are difficult to state. I doubt multipliers will be so high or even exist in the same format. Same with the local prices. It would be good if 1 common glint did not equate to 0.75 gold. It would be nice if it was a 1:1 conversion for common glint. A Gold Standard for local prices. The superior glints can be more than 1:1 conversion balanced all the way to 1:6 for Legendary Glint to Gold at local prices.
No, most people did not misunderstand it, only 7% of the posts in this thread so far show even a chance of misunderstanding it.
You brought up a gold sink but this has nearly nothing to do with gold sinks, especially when this is literally making the biggest gold faucet in the game.
If you're going to argue that it's good for you and your guild, fine, but don't misrepresent other people's understanding.
...
there has been multiple people in this and other threads asking for being able to transport goods using caravans, so yes, some people did misunderstand which is why I provided the link from the stream stating this was still a thing,
in regards to the gold sink I mentioned:
with glint, you need to farm it on your own since its bound, and as mentioned during the stream, glint will also be used to pay for Tax on buildings we own or citizenship dues, so that's the first gold sink layer that we didn't had previously with certificates since their only purpose was to make gold,
when we convert it to commodities theres also the conversion rate dependent on the node that can act as a gold sink, and when you transport it, theres always the risk of losing your caravan and when the caravan is destroyed there is now a higher chance of someone just breaking into the crates and that will further destroy part of the loot making for an extra layer of gold sink, instead of how it worked with certificates that it would mostly be transferred from one player to another,
so yes, glint does introduce more gold sinks into the economy compared to the previous hunting certificates
I want to make a proposal to try and curb some of the fears/backlash about the system:
Currently, it does not seem that Glint will drop in Caravan PvP from Dead Players.
I want to request Glint will drop in Caravan PvP from Dead Players.
This change should help to minimise the double profit some people will achieve. It will also be another currency sink for the Glint. I think Glint lost inside Caravan PvP should not translate to Stolen Glint though.
What I liked
The caravan system is looking super impressive. I have high hopes that systems like this will make the world feel alive and breathing. I absolutely love the way that the environment is used to modify the way players approach their pathing. I got super excited when I heard that things like fallen logs can dynamically spawn to challenge the caravan. This really helps the journey stay interesting, rather than setting a destination and just following the path until you get there.
The entire gameplay loop was super cinematic and immersive. The art of the caravan fits super well into the world and I feel that the overall pace of the caravan can make the journey either super relaxing as you slowly move through the beautifully crafted world, or very tense as you watch hungry players eyeing up your caravan. The fact that the system encourages players to find their own paths and even cut down trees to form paths is really exciting as well.
I think that this system is a great way to make Ashes of Creation feel like a proper MMO. Not only does it force players become actors in the world, but it also encourages others to interact with them. I feel that MMOs have slowly become single player grinds rather than social experiences, and the caravan system shows promise of bringing us back to that social experience.
My worries
I have a few worries, though I imagine that a few of them are due to my own lack of knowledge on the project's systems.
First of all- I noticed that there was quite a speed difference between the base caravan and the one Steven was driving. How big does this difference become? Will players with the best caravans be able to outrun attackers or have other advantages that ensure their success in defending from attackers?
Like many other people, I'm worried about how cosmetics play a role in identifying a caravan's power. Does a caravan skin completely mask the equipment that I have on the caravan or will that equipment still be easily identifiable in some way?
How is the cost vs. reward of this system balanced? I worry that hiring protection for a caravan may become so costly that players never use the system. What happens if regions start making caravan hunting discords and suddenly no one is able to complete runs because they're hunted down by hoards of players within a few minutes?
A bit of feedback
A small thing, but I felt that the end of the caravan loop was a bit jarring. The player moves into the town and suddenly is teleported off the caravan as they watch it vanish from existence. The entire caravan loop was insanely immersive up until this point. Everything pulled me further and further into the world until this happened. I would love to see the player park the caravan at a specific location to unload rather than have it vanish into thin air.
Overall, I'm super excited by what we've seen of the caravan system. I can't wait to get my hands on it and I have a lot of faith in the system. Keep up the good work!
Thumbs up to the caravan system, looks like solid social & economy gameplay. Can I please build a ballista upgrade to my caravan roof that an escort can use?
Thumbs down to commodities. Let gatherable and craftable items be the focus of this system, they already hold value. We don't need a set of contrived items in the game. Same with mayoral commodities/ mayor caravan system. Less is more.
I don't mind settlements having NPCs that sell unique items from that part of the world or reflecting upgrade choices of the settlement, as long as they are part of the economy/ artisan professions.
This was a good stream, lots of new information paired with a functional demonstration. There was nothing I disliked about the caravan system. Though I would've liked to see the PvP side of caravans, what it looks like when the caravan is damaged, destroyed and looted. Love the amount of modification that can be done to caravans, I hope you do the same thing with boats. Really like the idea of obstructions which could include things like fallen trees, vines/plant overgrowth, boulders, rock slides, avalanches, ice formations, sand storms, how about impassable lava streams caused by a nearby event?? Also, I think it would be great if players have the option of going through certain obstructions instead of around by having the right damage type or tools and enough players. So for a Boulder you could destroy it with blunt weapons or pickaxes. For fallen trees you could chop through it with axes/wood gathering axes. For an ice formation you could melt it with fire abilities. Some could be triggered by players as traps like cutting a large tree down onto the road to setup ambushes or a group pushing a Boulder off a ledge onto the path or triggering a rock slide. I would also like to see these obstructions have the potential to damage, kill or knockdown/knockback if they land on players and wagons. This would add another layer to caravan PvP which could make things very interesting and strategical. The driver of the wagon would need to be aware of their surroundings and more cautious. Considering how far the driver can zoom the camera out I see no issue with it.
I would say caravans should start off with much more than 2 slots and exchange rates should be 2x-3x per node you travel. 8x for traveling to the next town over is insane. Keep in mind most larger groups will be running multiple wagons at once, not just one so if it's 8x big groups/guilds will be getting crazy rich easily. Just like with damage numbers, No need to inflate the gold values.
Please let us dismount from the caravans. We might already be able to dismount but it wasn't shown.
Steven's Update today:
Glint kept in inventory and must be transported in crates in large numbers
More on loot tables than just glint.
Glint taken from Caravan Cargo will be considered 'Stolen'.
Rarity increases with level.
Not a big time gamer and therefor have little to compare my thoughts to.
Over all, I feel the system looks great.
I like the flag being placed when you summon a caravan. Time before it shows up. However, it seemed to me that you left the road to place the flag so others wouldn't know. Perhaps I misunderstood, but after talking with others the impression was given that an announcement would be made for those nearby that you were starting a caravan mission. This seems over kill.
I'm already moving fairly slowly, dealing with environment and mobs. If I'm taking main roads, there is a decent chance I'll be passing other players, friendly or not. Now on top of that an announcement is made to encourage non friendly units to make it even harder. Or some "friendly" units who will help for the right price.
I think if you want to attack a caravan you need to luck upon them on the road, set up a blockade and wait, or spy on the caravan merchant and see who looks like they me be prepping for trade. This is just for player ran caravans not NPC caravans. Announce all the NPC caravans.
Maybe horses with stamina (another possible upgrade) so you can trot or canter a distance to lose attackers, moving areas quickly so they hopefully attackers lose track of you.
How do you feel about the Caravan System Preview so far?
In general, feeling pretty good! Most of what we saw and heard about looked and sounded solid to me. Given how large a crew the team has been able to pull for showcase events in the past, I was honestly expecting a PvP raid to happen at some point. A little disappointed that didn't happen, but it's alright. There was still plenty to show off and discuss.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Caravan system?
I like the thrill of risk v reward and giving players opportunities to really reap the consequences of their actions. What path do you take? What caravan upgrades do you choose? Who do you bring along to defend? What time of day do you make your run? There's a ton of variability there, and I'm excited to see how it plays out and to try and carve my own path through the system (and across Verra!)
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Caravan System Preview?
New models and their animations looked excellent. I loved the look of these simpler caravans and the visual display of armored vs unarmored. Making those upgrades translate visually is super important for PvP situations when assessing your targets strengths and weaknesses. Of course, those won't exactly show if the caravan has a skin applied, so I suppose we'll have to rely on yet another UI system to get around that issue. Otherwise, movement looked good, beast of burden animations flowed nicely, and I enjoyed the gentle rocking of the caravan as the suspension did its work.
Having so many stats just for the caravan is absolutely fantastic. Being able to work towards acquiring specific upgrades that will allow you to tweak stats to your liking is super satisfying and really puts the experience in the hands of the player.
I see a lot of people being concerned about the manner in which launch locations are established. In my opinion, if people are roaming around looking for caravans to take down as soon as they leave the "city limits", that spells a bigger issue for the node than how to hide the spawn of their caravans. Those hunters are going to be working in large packs, circling the node's boundary and looking for anything that even slightly suggests the approach of a caravan. There's absolutely no way to protect against that. If that sort of behavior is actually happening, then the government of that node needs to take some action and seek alliances to help defend its caravans or threaten war against the node those hunters are coming from.
One way this would work well, by your own system if I heard Steven right today, is that certain commodities become more valuable the longer its been since they were last delivered. So if node A has had a hard time getting salted pork to node B because node C has been swarming node A's borders with caravan hunters, then after enough time has passed, the price of salted pork in node B will be high enough for the caravan owners in node A to hire sufficient help to ward off node C's caravan hunters upon a successfully defended run.
All that being said, I don't think any method of hiding the launch of the caravans is necessary, since no method will actually work particularly well. In my opinion, having this huge caravan just magically spawn out of nowhere only serves to break immersion. What I would really love is for the player to just have their caravan spawn inside a garage port within the caravansary whenever you decide to launch it. Just then, a guard or two open the doors. It gives you thirty seconds to hop inside before the guards close the doors again and cancel your caravan (in order for the next player in the queue to have their caravan launch). To get in, you simply walk up to it and hit a button to roll an animation where your character climbs up inside and takes the reins before transitioning to the driver camera. At this point, the caravan is on an auto-run mode where it takes you out of the city proper and hands control over to you a little ways past the city gates. The same animation in reverse would be awesome to see for delivering a caravan to your destination.
Related to this - I don't think hunters should be able to roam around willy nilly without a caravan or pack mule at the ready to pick up stolen goods, then just plant a flag in the middle of nowhere and wait three minutes for an empty caravan to show up. That just sounds a tad silly to me. If those guys want to take on big loot, then they need to do more than just get a bunch of zerg lords together. They need to have a caravan or a few mules that they drove out of their own node sitting behind the hill they all jump out from before taking you out. If the hunters are able to go full speed on land mounts to hunt you and loot all your stuff with an on-call caravan, that doesn't sound like much of a cost to plot and maneuver wherever they want. Forcing them to bring a caravan with them would make it more fair, I think. They can still have scouts separate from the group, but in order to secure the goods in a decent amount of time after taking down their target, they'll have to communicate and attempt to head people off a ways up the road without leaving the empty caravan or mules too far behind.
Without some time/speed-based cost to hunt caravans and benefit sufficiently from doing it, you're putting all the strategy and tough decisions in the hands of the caravan driver and telling the hunters, "Yep, just uh... go at it!" Sure, there's some strategy involved with how close to your own node you attack the caravan, since the closer you are, the sooner your empty caravan will arrive to snag the loot, but that's such a simple variable. Not exactly balanced when you consider all the precautionary measures the caravan driver needs to take into consideration.
Speaking of caravan attacks, I really like that random PvE events can spawn when the world senses your approach, but maybe there shouldn't be an horn blast, a banner pop up, and a mini-map highlight that show up thirty seconds before the mobs even make it to your caravan... To me, this totally and utterly destroys the thrill of the encounter. Why do I even know they're there until they're right in front of me? Are they that bad of bandits? Are they shouting at the top of their lungs through a megaphone about how they can't wait to attack me and take my stuff? I'd rather have them actually get the drop on me (unless I have allies scouting ahead of my location) and have to make some split second decisions about how I want to get out of there. Much more fun imo. Lastly, and similarly to the feedback I gave on the caravan bandit raid PvE event that was showcased last month, I hope these enemies will generally be well-coordinated and not just a randomly spawned group of three generic archers dawdling in the middle of the road waiting for me to ride up on them. Make their attempt to attack me and take my stuff believable, like they actually put some effort into trying.
Fording rivers is so awesome, I love that the team felt that was a necessary feature, and that it also requires some risk vs reward with the setup time required to build the raft and dismantle it on the other side.
Natural obstacles to impede your movement is clever, but considering how relatively easy it is for players to carve up standing trees and smash rocks, you'll need to make sure the fallen trees and boulders blocking their way are actually significant enough in size to make them think it might be worth going around rather than just pulling out their gathering tools. That being said, those players should be allowed to make the decision to harvest their way through the obstacle if they really want to, but perhaps it takes longer to break down than pretty much any other tree or boulder they'd normally encounter. Again, putting the decision in the hands of the players.
Do you have thoughts or feelings regarding some of the aspects of Caravans, such as Caravan components, Glint, Commodities, Exchange Rates, etc?
I do wonder how this Glint + Commodity system will replace, take away from, or add to the usual systems of money making from world mobs that we see in other MMOs. Typically, players collect gold, grey trash items, or the occasional dropped enchanted gear to resell from world mobs. Will this essentially force players to engage in the caravan system in order to make the same type of money they'd typically earn by adventuring in other MMOs, where they'd normally just vendor all their trash loot at the end of the day? Is that desirable or not? We'll have to see. But it sounds fun and interesting to me. As a Dark Crystal fan, I love the idea of a physical manifestation of different creatures' "essence".
Already mentioned this, but caravan components and a multitude of customizable stats is awesome.
Exchange rate system for commodities is awesome, I love how many factors will constantly be at play in determining the value of goods in other nodes.
Keep up the good work, y'all! This is looking sweet.
When I heard about caravans I assumed that it was a system meant to allow the transport of large quantities of any resources or goods to areas in which the resources are scarce (due to player-driven economy and region-specific resources) as there is no central banking system. However, it seems the caravans have less inventory space than a player with their only goal of enhancing the value of monster drops. I do not see how this system would encourage players to work together as most people (depending on numbers) will probably find it better to grind more and sell locally rather than spend the time traveling with a caravan which presents risks. This seems like a large step away from a player-driven economy as it encourages a fixed rate system and takes away the ability to mass transport player goods.
Overall, the caravan system as shown feels like an entire secondary system created to justify caravans. Why not just have one player-driven economy? Let actual supply and demand dictate prices and where goods are caravaned to. Let entire guilds build around being the ingame FedEx offering shipping services to other players.
Side note specifically about Glint: Having one generic drop from all monsters takes the fun out of PVE. why go anywhere to kill anything specific? All you will get is glint. How will crafting interact with this? I want to make a spider silk cloak, but when I kill spiders I just get glint? Will I find a rare hidden monster and go through great effort to kill it just to get some more glint? Why bother!? Why bother killing anything other than the most optimal glint-per-hour mob?
The system looks really good overall, but he glint system seems like a missed opportunity for two reasons.
First, it misses the chance for monsters to have specific loot that's more or less relevant. With the system as it stands, it doesn't matter where you go to hunt - they will all drop the same glint (granted at different rarities), and with that glint you can buy any of the trade goods that exist in whatever area you purchase it. But if monsters dropped an item that could be traded for a specific caravan good, you could have some areas become more / less contested and more interesting tradeoffs for players to make.
Second, by making glint untradeable, it takes away the ability for players to function specifically as traders / merchants. Some players don't want to grind mobs, but they still want to make money trading. If it's tradeable, they can buy it locally and create their own caravans without needing to farm.
I kind of agree. I'm not sure glint should be bound. I guess the commodoties you buy with it can be traded at the end of the day, but it seems like this step can be avoided by making players able to treade glint in the first place. I'd also give new players something to do with their glint socially and economically with other players by trading.
Id like to hear IS reasons for binding glint.
Edited: I heard glint being bound prevents zerging and other un-welcomed behavior. Seems right, not an expert, but I guess that makes sense.
How do you feel about the Caravan System Preview so far?
The system looks pretty good so far as is, excited to see how it'll come out during full release.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Caravan system?
I'm excited about the PvP aspect of the Caravan system, as well as getting a group of friends together to do these.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Caravan System Preview?
The question I would have, is the upgrades for the Caravan, will those be player made from crafting, or can they be bought? Will there be a limit to how many you can carry of each rarity? If upgrading to a "Raft" and you get attacked and defeated, what happens to those materials, will they just drop? Also, if a group of attackers manage to take down a caravan, how will the "loot" be split amongst, say 10-20 people that can successfully take down a caravan and it's defenders?
Same question, will caravan parts be able to be crafted. IMO they should be. The more player crafting the better.
This is more a request than feedback, but I would really like to see group caravans, like we have group mounts or ships, made for more than one person. Like, both a driver's seat and a defensive turret position up top for another player, for example. This should come at the cost of cargo space or perhaps speed. Or instead of one of the other abilities like the heal and repulsor beam we saw.
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TryolMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited November 2023
The caravans looked great, this was probably the most polished system we've seen in any showcase so far since A1. Every mechanic around it was satisfying and meaningful, although you guys almost always nail the designs, so no surprise here.
ALSO, before I forget. This might be a tiny detail for many, but I'm so happy about it. I love that you increased the foliage render distance. It makes the world look so much better.
I think render distance in general is such an amazing tool to make you world feel more immersive and epic. The Alpha 1 didn't disappoint in this aspect, and it's sure looking like Alpha 2 will be even better, great job!
As for the negatives, it has nothing to do with the caravan system, but it was shown this stream so I thought I'd talk about it here; it's the UI. I have to parrot the same thing I mentioned in last stream's feedback forum, but only because it seemed to be even worse this time around:
SO MANY POPUPS
"Find a location to summon your cavaran" - Why? I just bought it, who told you I want to summon it right away? Is this like a 1-time tutorial thing, if so then why is it in the middle of my screen? "Wait for it to arrive" - Duh.. there is a timer ticking in a separate UI module (one that makes this announcement completely redundant in the first place), of course I'm waiting. "Defend the caravan" - Wait.. I have to defend it? I thought I'd just hand it over to the bandits.
Jokes aside, it might seem like I'm passionate about UI, but that couldn't be further from the truth. It's just that I agree with pretty much everything I see in your showcases, and it's surprising how out of touch these popups feel compared to everything else you show to us. It's not meaningful, like the systems and mechanics in your game. It's unnecessary bloat.
I'm hoping this is just a temporary solution as you're yet to design ways to better present information, and since you already have the "middle of the screen huge announcement UI module" up and running, you just tunnel everything into it.
Another thing, this time with the world-space UI, although I definitely don't feel as strongly about this:
The dot in front of NPCs
This makes them seem like objects rather than characters in the world.
I think this could be replaced by a very slight outline effect, or vibrance effect, or maybe even just a more specific icon based on the kind of default interaction you can have with each NPC.
Just to counter the same argument I always get when discussing UI:
Yes, most things will probably be adjustable in the settings. You can resize them, hide them, etc.
BUT, that's not an excuse for giving us bad defaults.
Also, if everything is adjustable from the UI to the Skill FX, then what's the point of having these discussions in the first place?
There are players who won't ever touch the settings.
There are players who don't want to handicap themselves by disabling ANY single UI component that can provide them useful information, even if it's only useful 1% of the time.
Good defaults are crucial.
Otherwise great job, the game is shaping up to be everything I had hoped for.
The caravans looks great, this was probably the most polished system we've seen in any showcase so far since A1. Every mechanic around it was satisfying and meaningful, although you guys almost always nail the designs, so no surprise here.
As for the negatives, it has nothing to do with the caravan system, but it was shown this stream so I thought I'd talk about it here; it's the UI. I have to parrot the same thing I mentioned in last stream's feedback forum, but only because it seemed to be even worse this time around:
SO MANY POPUPS
"Find a location to summon your cavaran" - Why? I just bought it, who told you I want to summon it right away? Is this like a 1-time tutorial thing, if so then why is it in the middle of my screen? "Wait for it to arrive" - Duh.. there is a timer ticking in a separate UI module (one that makes this announcement completely redundant in the first place), of course I'm waiting. "Defend the caravan" - Wait.. I have to defend it? I thought I'd just hand it over to the bandits.
Anyways, it might seem like I'm passionate about UI, but that couldn't be further from the truth. It's just that I agree with pretty much everything I see in your showcases, and it's surprising how out of touch these popups feel compared to everything else you show to us. It's not meaningful, like the systems and mechanics in your game. It's unnecessary bloat.
I'm hoping this is just a temporary solution as you're yet to design ways to better present information, and since you have the "middle of the screen huge announcement UI module" up and running, you just tunnel everything into it. If that's the case then I'm relieved, but I can't be sure so I had to share my opinion.
Another thing, this time with the world-space UI, although I definitely don't feel as strongly about this:
The dot in front of NPCs
This makes them seem like objects rather than characters in the world.
I think this could be replaced by a very slight outline effect, or vibrance effect, or maybe even just a more specific icon based on the kind of default interaction you can have with each NPC.
Also, just to counter the same argument I always get when discussing UI:
Yes, most things will probably be adjustable in the settings. You can resize them, hide them, etc.
BUT, that's not an excuse for designing it poorly as providing us a good default is the goal here.
If everything is adjustable from the UI to the Skill FX, then what's the point of having these discussions in the first place?
There are players who won't ever touch the settings.
There are players who don't want to handicap themselves by disabling ANY single UI component that can provide them useful information, even if it's only useful 1% of the time.
How about limiting the UI announcement bloat as much as possible and only providing useful information? As for stuff that might be difficult for first time players.. that can be added to the tutorial system. Please don't make me see messages like "find a place to summon your caravan" multiple times, and DEFINITELY not in the middle of my screen.
Otherwise great job, the game is shaping up to be everything I had hoped for.
Another feature that needs improvement is the yellow glow for the node boundaries. You build vibrant worlds and then cause jarring with your artificial gamey renditions. I hope the yellow glow is a placeholder. Also, the oil painting effect on the commodities should be improved/changed. Hopefully a place holder again.
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TryolMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Another feature that needs improvement is the yellow glow for the node boundaries. You build vibrant worlds and then cause jarring with your artificial gamey renditions. I hope the yellow glow is a placeholder. Also, the oil painting effect on the commodities should be improved/changed. Hopefully a place holder again.
I also thought it's just a placeholder, hence I didn't mention it. Yeah, that definitely needs change as well.
I think you should let some of the players guarding the caravan to grab on to the outside and be able to "ride" it but if they do combat, they let go and drop off of it. you could go like 2 is default sitting in the front and an add-on could be to put a step on the outside to allow it to get to 6, another upgrade could be to allow you to do combat while staying onboard, like shooting bows or just a swing a sword but you are rooted onboard.
i kinda like EVE's cargo part, you can set up a container and put items in that container and set a ship to destination. you set up the reward price and if you want the person transporting it to pay insurance on the container. if the person transporting the container opens the container and takes the item you immediately get the insurance paid and they can take the items. if they get destroyed, they pay the insurance. you can set up a reward or how much you are willing to pay for transporting the item.
i would have those commodities for like town upkeep (food, weapons, armor, building materials), or like when you build a building to have it put up like a purchase order that you can either sell to the building or bring in with the caravan from another town.
One thing I would like to see is intro/outro transition of the caravan. Right now it's appearing out of thin air. I'd look at Fantastic Beasts - Crimes of Grindewald and how the circus collapses together. That type of animation would be sweet and fit the world.
After the update on Discord I want to reiterate the need for group caravans. More than one person should be able to put commodities into a caravan and more capacity should be added. This is because Glint farms will exist and bottlenecks will occur at the transport level between Nodes. The substantial bottlenecks should exist in the trade system, not in the transport system. Otherwise there will be huge backlogs of glint/commodities just stored everywhere and the whole system will shut down for extended periods...Perfectly fine if you want the system to shut down for periods but a flowing and constant economy/pvp situation would be preferred.
Another great stream, 10/10!
I loved almost everything about the caravan showcase. I would have loved to have seen the caravan successfully defended against an attacking group of players though.
The one thing I really need to see is an (perhaps imperative) addition to the risk in the Risk & Reward game design pillar of AoC. This addition would be environmental damage! It would be another thing that players would have to think about before taking a particular route from one node to another with a caravan. Is the road well developed? Has there been an event nearby that has harmed the health of the trail?
Falling trees, volcanoes, harsh rain, heat and cold are some examples of environmental things that could potentially damage the caravans and players.
-How do you feel about the Caravan System Preview so far?
I think it was good so far, but could've provided more info and details. I noticed a lot of comments critiquing the caravan system are from people who have never had experience with something like this before so they just don't really know what it's supposed to be about or what its purpose is. I personally have played Archeage so I am familiar with the way it works, but I felt like the preview kind of assumes you already know about what the caravan system is.
-What excites you about playing and interacting with the Caravan system?
The potential of pvp, finding the best routes to avoid being seen, the grouping up with friends and the fun we would have together, the paths for defender or attacker, etc. It's a great system for adding lots of possible interactions into the game.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Caravan System Preview?
It's hard to tell really because the preview really didn't showcase much, so can't really say a lot about it.
Do you have thoughts or feelings regarding some of the aspects of Caravans, such as Caravan components, Glint, Commodities, Exchange Rates, etc?
a) I like that you can customize the caravan components, I think that's a great idea.
b) Since this game isn't a sandbox mmo where you farm and collect specific resources that you grow, the glint system makes sense. I also like the simplicity of the glint system. While I did appreciate that in Archeage you had to gather specific materials for specific commodities, I feel like I am indifferent as to whether we need materials or glint, so I am happy either way. I also think that bosses should drop a rare glint that can be turned into a commodity using just 1 of that rare glint.
c)There is the potential to include something like stronger monsters dropping higher quality glint that you can make commodities with that provide greater income possibly.
d) One problem that Archeage had was that because commodities was really the main source of gold income in the game, people were turning in commodities at high rates to the point that exchange rates became so low, and it felt like we were working so hard for so little reward. So I am not sure what kind of system you have in place to balance this out. Also there was no details as to whether certain nodes produce certain specialty commodities, so I can't comment on that.
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
As mentioned I played Archeage, so I have experience with the caravan system. Overall I really like it, it adds an aspect of high risk high reward to the game with pvp inbuilt into it that can be opt into, which I think is great.
One other thing I want to mention is that in Archeage, you had factions, and so as long as you were within your own faction's territory, you were safe, and you only had to worry about getting attacked while transporting commodities when you were in pvp areas where enemy faction could attack you. In AOC, there are no factions, so anyone can potentially attack you anywhere... and I feel like there will be quite a number of people who specifically aim to become "pirates" that just hunt caravans. I know based on Archeage, people at the end game became pirates simply because it was fun and they were bored of other things. A lot of the time these people tend to be highly geared and stronger than most people.... so my concern is how does AOC aim to balance something like this out where "pirates" will basically have no restriction as to where they will be able to attack caravans.
Another thing I want to mention is that in Archeage, the caravan/ship commodities system was actually a lot more fun in earlier versions of the game. In later versions of the game, they changed it to make it safer, which significantly restricted the potential for pvp, and it was way overtuned to the point that the system was just no longer fun or interesting.
So something to consider for the AOC team is how you plan on balancing this out so that people who aren't as hardcore can still participate without getting griefed constantly by pirates, while also at the same time, not restricting it and overtuning it so much that it ruins the high risk high reward aspect of it... because in the end of the day the caravan system should be all about deciding how much risk you're going to take in order to reap higher rewards. So perhaps it can be as simple as people opting for shorter safer routes for less rewards, or risk higher travel distance for higher rewards.
Overall, as someone who enjoys pvp, I am very happy that this game has the caravan system and am excited to participate in it!
Я сам из России и многие из моей страны (знакомые и т.д хотят попробовать вашу игру)
буду общаться с вами на вашем языке чтобы друг друга могли понять !)
We have communities from Russia and Ukraine playing the game Linage 2, we just spend years in this game and want to try something new and stumbled upon you. The PVP system, clan battles for the castle, trades and exchanges of currencies and things (Buying and selling) are very important to us. You have done everything very well and we are happy about it ! I would very much like a key for the test , since two YouTube videos about your project have already amazed us and I want to get closer to your creation !
There are also streamers from Russia and they don 't mind testing your game by showing it on their stream ) my contact email : ellouze.sofien@yandex.ru
We will be grateful for your response and approval in testing this game
[*] How do you feel about the Caravan System Preview so far?
I anticipated it to be as it is.
But I have to watch the stream once more in detail. So I will maybe post again an update.
[*] What excites you about playing and interacting with the Caravan system?
I like that there is freedom to move everywhere with the caravan.
[*] Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Caravan System Preview?
Might end up boring if player density is low.
If player density is high, will players still leave the city? Will they have to fight and win battles every step?
The spawning of the caravan needs improved with more immersion.
There must be ways to camouflage the caravan. We are in a magic world.
Let mages be able to cast heavy fog and others lift the fog with expensive potions. The fog should happen naturally too.
Maybe it could be a portal with a long cooldown, usable to enter with the caravan and exit at a close location. Both entry and exit should have a player nearby, holding it open. The cooldown should be on caravan passing through it.
Let be creatures in the wild which get startled by humans and predators. Seeing them would make players aware that something or someone is there: maybe a caravan, or caravan robbers. Can also distract.
The two horses pulling the caravan are too in sync and identical. Make it more obvious that they are two creatures and not one thing which pulls another thing.
The caravan should be able to transport players and live creatures too. Players could sneak in and out of cities, maybe evade bounty hunters if climb into it on the road. BH could investigate caravans.
Also, the Repulsor device seemed pretty insane, knocking mobs and players high up and over the ridge is brutal (one of the skeletons in the first knockback went FAR). This has the potential to be very overpowered with knocking players off cliffs or into mob camps. I honestly thought it looked out of place and more like a mechanic you might see in a game like Fortnite.
Thinking the same here. That looks sick.
One could shrink the insane Radius of how far the Attackers get knocked back -> but adding something like a SLOW-Effect for a few Seconds when they were affected.
That way, they would be slower when returning to the Caravan Wagon to attack it,
and it would still be effective even without being knocked like Fifty Meters or Hundred. x')
Apparently, the components were mislabeled, and it was clarified later that we were looking at Tier 2 components, not Tier 5? That makes more sense now in understanding the potential capacity of a caravan.
Again, the visuals and caravan movement were really excellent. That was the highlight for me. All of the other issues are just a question of balance. I can't wait to see the next caravan stream!
Jepp, we need definitely a few more Caravan Streams. One with way more Progress in the Future compared to what was inside now, would be awesome.
Comments
"Pain in ass" timesink but I maybe should have gone with PITA timesink (pain in the ass), however, I really wanted to avoid actually spelling out course language but that caravan has now left ...
Ah makes sense now lol. Cheers mate.
I am veeery satisfied with what i have seen already.
The Caravan as a Vehicle, reminded me a little bit of something. Years ago -> i played a Game with a formerly HUMONGOUS Number of Players,
named : Planetside 2.
The Caravan reminded of a particular Vehicle - called "The Sunderer".
A blocky Vehicle that is like a Mix between a Bus and a Truck. It can load up to like 12 Players - and deploy and function as a Spawnpoint.
It is not one of the "strongest" Ground Vehicles - but one of the tankiest.
The " Tank-Aspect " - the Caravan reminded me of it. It is good that the Caravan -> when being equipped with Stuff that is above the average, bare Caravan which is basically "naked" compared to the upgraded Vehicle,
the upgraded Caravan seems to be able to take a lot more Attacks, Punishment - and has neat ways of defending itself.
I am aware everything right now seems to be very unbalanced right now and a few things might need to be weakened and a few other things/details strengthened.
The Fact that the Player can choose that the "upgraded" Caravan-Wagon has TWO Horses instead of just One, is also a neat and realistic Detail of why it should be faster than the average Caravan-Wagon with just one Horse.
Seeing the Caravan move around, felt a lot like when in Planetside 2 a Player was moving a Sunderer. I like it a lot and i am looking forward to how neatly You will balance it out in the coming Future.
It will depend very, very hard on how much active Players in the closer Vicinity will decide to "play" their Characters,
but i can imagine that " some " Caravans will only be able to reach their planned Destination with L~OOOTS of other Players around them protecting them,
while i can imagine in "other" Players the Caravan having a relatively easy Time with just a few Players protecting it, just like in this Presentation from a Day ago.
I am excited to interact with the Caravan System in - well - every possible way i can. From being the Driver of a Caravan-Wagon, up to being one of probably "many" People trying their very very best, to defend them.
Right now,
i just can't see me as being a Player who will attack a Caravan. Since the Game is not out yet -> and hence i have no one (other Players) who gave their best to make me their Enemy,
i can not imagine that i will anytime soon want to attack any Caravan of another Node - or maybe even Players from my own Node. ((( <- is that even possible ? )))
Right now - i imagine myself in the most likely Spot of being a Defender giving his best to protect it.
I love to see, how it looks Piece by Piece, how the ingame World gets closer to being finished and ready for Release.
The Node they started from, was the same as from the Video One or Two Months ago, right ?
Plus " one " particular Place on the Road, looks like it was the very Place - where the "NPC-Caravan" was attacked formerly by a Group of Bandits.
Loved to see the Places again. They look beautiful. While i think i pr~OOObably saw a Road looking pretty much the same in two different Locations a few Minutes away from each other,
the ingame World looks mostly nicely hand-crafted and worked on, with much Love for the Detail of every single Dozens of Meters in the World.
Maybe it is just the Lighting of the Unreal Engine 5(?) Engine -> but this Game looks already totally wonderful.
I also have a more or less good even if tiny Impression just how vast even a single "Continent" of the few available is -> and even just a single Region inside of it.
Now this is nice. Even with +Plus Nine Thousand Players or so put onto a single Server - a single ingame World, there will be M~UUUCH Terroritory that is not constantly flooded and used by Players all the time. There will always be Room for PvE, Roleplay, enjoying the beautiful Ingame World and doing Events.
While i had a good, little hunch until now -> i can understand why this Game takes so immensely long to come and draw nearer to it's Completion for Release.
I must admit i love how it looks, like finally - FINALLY - a good Game that will feel grant and great, is about to see the Light of our World.
So many MMO's have always things they disappoint with. But with Ashes - it feels like Players will always have something "current" to do.
Something that will never feel outdated. From this single Preview - it looks like your amazing Game will manage just that.
Greatness is about to be made -> and i love every single Presentation of it.
I feel like i will have a L~OOOT to learn about this, right now.
To be completely honest -> i feel and think, like MMO's in the last +5 Years were designed to make the Player feel lazy and not think to much.
( Especially World of Pay(war)craft )
I feel like i will have to pay close Attention, in Order to have a good Understanding and Oversight, of how to use Components, Glint, Commodities and Exchances Rates well.
Thankfully i think i will not be alone, but in a Guild - but damn i still think i need to sharpen my Focus in this Game to come,
my Focus which has somewhat dulled over the last Years.
And Thank You very much for that.
Right now, i think i have nothing great to mention for this Comment anymore, that i have already mentioned.
What could i like especially much on what i have seen in the Presentation ? What may i dislike ? Hard to say, to such an amazing Work still so deep and much in Development.
Hmm.
Maybe the "Push/Knock-back"(?) Ability that Sir Steven used - to push Enemy Attackers away from the Caravan, was WAAAAAAAYYYY to strong.
( It was funny that he could use that even on one of his Player-Allies. )
But while that Knockback was way to strong -> and send Enemy Attackers flying as if a Giant from the Elderscrolls Five Skyrim smacked them around,
i am confident that will be balanced in time as well.
Loved how there was " Fog " moving over the Ground in some Area's, where also some " Undead " where close by and one Skeleton Fighter(?) was seemingly attacking the Caravan for a short Moment,
very spooky - and i wonder if " mysteriously moving Fog over the Ground " could be an Indicator for undead Humanoids or Beings in generally being nearby,
or if this was just Coincidence and just a nice Weather- or Area-Effect.
One can not help but to notice - how the ingame World seems still so incredibly empty - due to no Players being inside it yet. But it looked nice and mostly "alive" already. It was a beautiful Presentation.
Glint = Currency. Commodities = Sink. Gold = Currency. Trade = Faucet. Exact numbers are difficult to state. I doubt multipliers will be so high or even exist in the same format. Same with the local prices. It would be good if 1 common glint did not equate to 0.75 gold. It would be nice if it was a 1:1 conversion for common glint. A Gold Standard for local prices. The superior glints can be more than 1:1 conversion balanced all the way to 1:6 for Legendary Glint to Gold at local prices.
...
there has been multiple people in this and other threads asking for being able to transport goods using caravans, so yes, some people did misunderstand which is why I provided the link from the stream stating this was still a thing,
in regards to the gold sink I mentioned:
with glint, you need to farm it on your own since its bound, and as mentioned during the stream, glint will also be used to pay for Tax on buildings we own or citizenship dues, so that's the first gold sink layer that we didn't had previously with certificates since their only purpose was to make gold,
when we convert it to commodities theres also the conversion rate dependent on the node that can act as a gold sink, and when you transport it, theres always the risk of losing your caravan and when the caravan is destroyed there is now a higher chance of someone just breaking into the crates and that will further destroy part of the loot making for an extra layer of gold sink, instead of how it worked with certificates that it would mostly be transferred from one player to another,
so yes, glint does introduce more gold sinks into the economy compared to the previous hunting certificates
Currently, it does not seem that Glint will drop in Caravan PvP from Dead Players.
I want to request Glint will drop in Caravan PvP from Dead Players.
This change should help to minimise the double profit some people will achieve. It will also be another currency sink for the Glint. I think Glint lost inside Caravan PvP should not translate to Stolen Glint though.
The caravan system is looking super impressive. I have high hopes that systems like this will make the world feel alive and breathing. I absolutely love the way that the environment is used to modify the way players approach their pathing. I got super excited when I heard that things like fallen logs can dynamically spawn to challenge the caravan. This really helps the journey stay interesting, rather than setting a destination and just following the path until you get there.
The entire gameplay loop was super cinematic and immersive. The art of the caravan fits super well into the world and I feel that the overall pace of the caravan can make the journey either super relaxing as you slowly move through the beautifully crafted world, or very tense as you watch hungry players eyeing up your caravan. The fact that the system encourages players to find their own paths and even cut down trees to form paths is really exciting as well.
I think that this system is a great way to make Ashes of Creation feel like a proper MMO. Not only does it force players become actors in the world, but it also encourages others to interact with them. I feel that MMOs have slowly become single player grinds rather than social experiences, and the caravan system shows promise of bringing us back to that social experience.
My worries
I have a few worries, though I imagine that a few of them are due to my own lack of knowledge on the project's systems.
First of all- I noticed that there was quite a speed difference between the base caravan and the one Steven was driving. How big does this difference become? Will players with the best caravans be able to outrun attackers or have other advantages that ensure their success in defending from attackers?
Like many other people, I'm worried about how cosmetics play a role in identifying a caravan's power. Does a caravan skin completely mask the equipment that I have on the caravan or will that equipment still be easily identifiable in some way?
How is the cost vs. reward of this system balanced? I worry that hiring protection for a caravan may become so costly that players never use the system. What happens if regions start making caravan hunting discords and suddenly no one is able to complete runs because they're hunted down by hoards of players within a few minutes?
A bit of feedback
A small thing, but I felt that the end of the caravan loop was a bit jarring. The player moves into the town and suddenly is teleported off the caravan as they watch it vanish from existence. The entire caravan loop was insanely immersive up until this point. Everything pulled me further and further into the world until this happened. I would love to see the player park the caravan at a specific location to unload rather than have it vanish into thin air.
Overall, I'm super excited by what we've seen of the caravan system. I can't wait to get my hands on it and I have a lot of faith in the system. Keep up the good work!
Thumbs down to commodities. Let gatherable and craftable items be the focus of this system, they already hold value. We don't need a set of contrived items in the game. Same with mayoral commodities/ mayor caravan system. Less is more.
I don't mind settlements having NPCs that sell unique items from that part of the world or reflecting upgrade choices of the settlement, as long as they are part of the economy/ artisan professions.
I would say caravans should start off with much more than 2 slots and exchange rates should be 2x-3x per node you travel. 8x for traveling to the next town over is insane. Keep in mind most larger groups will be running multiple wagons at once, not just one so if it's 8x big groups/guilds will be getting crazy rich easily. Just like with damage numbers, No need to inflate the gold values.
Apparently, attackers only have one chance to attack at present in Caravan PvP.
I think Attackers should have three chances to attack in Caravan PvP.
Thank you,
Neurath.
Steven's Update today:
Glint kept in inventory and must be transported in crates in large numbers
More on loot tables than just glint.
Glint taken from Caravan Cargo will be considered 'Stolen'.
Rarity increases with level.
Over all, I feel the system looks great.
I like the flag being placed when you summon a caravan. Time before it shows up. However, it seemed to me that you left the road to place the flag so others wouldn't know. Perhaps I misunderstood, but after talking with others the impression was given that an announcement would be made for those nearby that you were starting a caravan mission. This seems over kill.
I'm already moving fairly slowly, dealing with environment and mobs. If I'm taking main roads, there is a decent chance I'll be passing other players, friendly or not. Now on top of that an announcement is made to encourage non friendly units to make it even harder. Or some "friendly" units who will help for the right price.
I think if you want to attack a caravan you need to luck upon them on the road, set up a blockade and wait, or spy on the caravan merchant and see who looks like they me be prepping for trade. This is just for player ran caravans not NPC caravans. Announce all the NPC caravans.
Maybe horses with stamina (another possible upgrade) so you can trot or canter a distance to lose attackers, moving areas quickly so they hopefully attackers lose track of you.
In general, feeling pretty good! Most of what we saw and heard about looked and sounded solid to me. Given how large a crew the team has been able to pull for showcase events in the past, I was honestly expecting a PvP raid to happen at some point. A little disappointed that didn't happen, but it's alright. There was still plenty to show off and discuss.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Caravan system?
I like the thrill of risk v reward and giving players opportunities to really reap the consequences of their actions. What path do you take? What caravan upgrades do you choose? Who do you bring along to defend? What time of day do you make your run? There's a ton of variability there, and I'm excited to see how it plays out and to try and carve my own path through the system (and across Verra!)
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Caravan System Preview?
New models and their animations looked excellent. I loved the look of these simpler caravans and the visual display of armored vs unarmored. Making those upgrades translate visually is super important for PvP situations when assessing your targets strengths and weaknesses. Of course, those won't exactly show if the caravan has a skin applied, so I suppose we'll have to rely on yet another UI system to get around that issue. Otherwise, movement looked good, beast of burden animations flowed nicely, and I enjoyed the gentle rocking of the caravan as the suspension did its work.
Having so many stats just for the caravan is absolutely fantastic. Being able to work towards acquiring specific upgrades that will allow you to tweak stats to your liking is super satisfying and really puts the experience in the hands of the player.
I see a lot of people being concerned about the manner in which launch locations are established. In my opinion, if people are roaming around looking for caravans to take down as soon as they leave the "city limits", that spells a bigger issue for the node than how to hide the spawn of their caravans. Those hunters are going to be working in large packs, circling the node's boundary and looking for anything that even slightly suggests the approach of a caravan. There's absolutely no way to protect against that. If that sort of behavior is actually happening, then the government of that node needs to take some action and seek alliances to help defend its caravans or threaten war against the node those hunters are coming from.
One way this would work well, by your own system if I heard Steven right today, is that certain commodities become more valuable the longer its been since they were last delivered. So if node A has had a hard time getting salted pork to node B because node C has been swarming node A's borders with caravan hunters, then after enough time has passed, the price of salted pork in node B will be high enough for the caravan owners in node A to hire sufficient help to ward off node C's caravan hunters upon a successfully defended run.
All that being said, I don't think any method of hiding the launch of the caravans is necessary, since no method will actually work particularly well. In my opinion, having this huge caravan just magically spawn out of nowhere only serves to break immersion. What I would really love is for the player to just have their caravan spawn inside a garage port within the caravansary whenever you decide to launch it. Just then, a guard or two open the doors. It gives you thirty seconds to hop inside before the guards close the doors again and cancel your caravan (in order for the next player in the queue to have their caravan launch). To get in, you simply walk up to it and hit a button to roll an animation where your character climbs up inside and takes the reins before transitioning to the driver camera. At this point, the caravan is on an auto-run mode where it takes you out of the city proper and hands control over to you a little ways past the city gates. The same animation in reverse would be awesome to see for delivering a caravan to your destination.
Related to this - I don't think hunters should be able to roam around willy nilly without a caravan or pack mule at the ready to pick up stolen goods, then just plant a flag in the middle of nowhere and wait three minutes for an empty caravan to show up. That just sounds a tad silly to me. If those guys want to take on big loot, then they need to do more than just get a bunch of zerg lords together. They need to have a caravan or a few mules that they drove out of their own node sitting behind the hill they all jump out from before taking you out. If the hunters are able to go full speed on land mounts to hunt you and loot all your stuff with an on-call caravan, that doesn't sound like much of a cost to plot and maneuver wherever they want. Forcing them to bring a caravan with them would make it more fair, I think. They can still have scouts separate from the group, but in order to secure the goods in a decent amount of time after taking down their target, they'll have to communicate and attempt to head people off a ways up the road without leaving the empty caravan or mules too far behind.
Without some time/speed-based cost to hunt caravans and benefit sufficiently from doing it, you're putting all the strategy and tough decisions in the hands of the caravan driver and telling the hunters, "Yep, just uh... go at it!" Sure, there's some strategy involved with how close to your own node you attack the caravan, since the closer you are, the sooner your empty caravan will arrive to snag the loot, but that's such a simple variable. Not exactly balanced when you consider all the precautionary measures the caravan driver needs to take into consideration.
Speaking of caravan attacks, I really like that random PvE events can spawn when the world senses your approach, but maybe there shouldn't be an horn blast, a banner pop up, and a mini-map highlight that show up thirty seconds before the mobs even make it to your caravan... To me, this totally and utterly destroys the thrill of the encounter. Why do I even know they're there until they're right in front of me? Are they that bad of bandits? Are they shouting at the top of their lungs through a megaphone about how they can't wait to attack me and take my stuff? I'd rather have them actually get the drop on me (unless I have allies scouting ahead of my location) and have to make some split second decisions about how I want to get out of there. Much more fun imo. Lastly, and similarly to the feedback I gave on the caravan bandit raid PvE event that was showcased last month, I hope these enemies will generally be well-coordinated and not just a randomly spawned group of three generic archers dawdling in the middle of the road waiting for me to ride up on them. Make their attempt to attack me and take my stuff believable, like they actually put some effort into trying.
Fording rivers is so awesome, I love that the team felt that was a necessary feature, and that it also requires some risk vs reward with the setup time required to build the raft and dismantle it on the other side.
Natural obstacles to impede your movement is clever, but considering how relatively easy it is for players to carve up standing trees and smash rocks, you'll need to make sure the fallen trees and boulders blocking their way are actually significant enough in size to make them think it might be worth going around rather than just pulling out their gathering tools. That being said, those players should be allowed to make the decision to harvest their way through the obstacle if they really want to, but perhaps it takes longer to break down than pretty much any other tree or boulder they'd normally encounter. Again, putting the decision in the hands of the players.
Do you have thoughts or feelings regarding some of the aspects of Caravans, such as Caravan components, Glint, Commodities, Exchange Rates, etc?
I do wonder how this Glint + Commodity system will replace, take away from, or add to the usual systems of money making from world mobs that we see in other MMOs. Typically, players collect gold, grey trash items, or the occasional dropped enchanted gear to resell from world mobs. Will this essentially force players to engage in the caravan system in order to make the same type of money they'd typically earn by adventuring in other MMOs, where they'd normally just vendor all their trash loot at the end of the day? Is that desirable or not? We'll have to see. But it sounds fun and interesting to me. As a Dark Crystal fan, I love the idea of a physical manifestation of different creatures' "essence".
Already mentioned this, but caravan components and a multitude of customizable stats is awesome.
Exchange rate system for commodities is awesome, I love how many factors will constantly be at play in determining the value of goods in other nodes.
Keep up the good work, y'all! This is looking sweet.
Overall, the caravan system as shown feels like an entire secondary system created to justify caravans. Why not just have one player-driven economy? Let actual supply and demand dictate prices and where goods are caravaned to. Let entire guilds build around being the ingame FedEx offering shipping services to other players.
Side note specifically about Glint: Having one generic drop from all monsters takes the fun out of PVE. why go anywhere to kill anything specific? All you will get is glint. How will crafting interact with this? I want to make a spider silk cloak, but when I kill spiders I just get glint? Will I find a rare hidden monster and go through great effort to kill it just to get some more glint? Why bother!? Why bother killing anything other than the most optimal glint-per-hour mob?
I kind of agree. I'm not sure glint should be bound. I guess the commodoties you buy with it can be traded at the end of the day, but it seems like this step can be avoided by making players able to treade glint in the first place. I'd also give new players something to do with their glint socially and economically with other players by trading.
Id like to hear IS reasons for binding glint.
Edited: I heard glint being bound prevents zerging and other un-welcomed behavior. Seems right, not an expert, but I guess that makes sense.
Same question, will caravan parts be able to be crafted. IMO they should be. The more player crafting the better.
ALSO, before I forget. This might be a tiny detail for many, but I'm so happy about it. I love that you increased the foliage render distance. It makes the world look so much better.
I think render distance in general is such an amazing tool to make you world feel more immersive and epic. The Alpha 1 didn't disappoint in this aspect, and it's sure looking like Alpha 2 will be even better, great job!
As for the negatives, it has nothing to do with the caravan system, but it was shown this stream so I thought I'd talk about it here; it's the UI. I have to parrot the same thing I mentioned in last stream's feedback forum, but only because it seemed to be even worse this time around:
"Find a location to summon your cavaran" - Why? I just bought it, who told you I want to summon it right away? Is this like a 1-time tutorial thing, if so then why is it in the middle of my screen?
"Wait for it to arrive" - Duh.. there is a timer ticking in a separate UI module (one that makes this announcement completely redundant in the first place), of course I'm waiting.
"Defend the caravan" - Wait.. I have to defend it? I thought I'd just hand it over to the bandits.
Jokes aside, it might seem like I'm passionate about UI, but that couldn't be further from the truth. It's just that I agree with pretty much everything I see in your showcases, and it's surprising how out of touch these popups feel compared to everything else you show to us. It's not meaningful, like the systems and mechanics in your game. It's unnecessary bloat.
I'm hoping this is just a temporary solution as you're yet to design ways to better present information, and since you already have the "middle of the screen huge announcement UI module" up and running, you just tunnel everything into it.
Another thing, this time with the world-space UI, although I definitely don't feel as strongly about this:
I think this could be replaced by a very slight outline effect, or vibrance effect, or maybe even just a more specific icon based on the kind of default interaction you can have with each NPC.
Just to counter the same argument I always get when discussing UI:
Yes, most things will probably be adjustable in the settings. You can resize them, hide them, etc.
BUT, that's not an excuse for giving us bad defaults.
Also, if everything is adjustable from the UI to the Skill FX, then what's the point of having these discussions in the first place?
There are players who won't ever touch the settings.
There are players who don't want to handicap themselves by disabling ANY single UI component that can provide them useful information, even if it's only useful 1% of the time.
Good defaults are crucial.
Otherwise great job, the game is shaping up to be everything I had hoped for.
Another feature that needs improvement is the yellow glow for the node boundaries. You build vibrant worlds and then cause jarring with your artificial gamey renditions. I hope the yellow glow is a placeholder. Also, the oil painting effect on the commodities should be improved/changed. Hopefully a place holder again.
I also thought it's just a placeholder, hence I didn't mention it. Yeah, that definitely needs change as well.
i kinda like EVE's cargo part, you can set up a container and put items in that container and set a ship to destination. you set up the reward price and if you want the person transporting it to pay insurance on the container. if the person transporting the container opens the container and takes the item you immediately get the insurance paid and they can take the items. if they get destroyed, they pay the insurance. you can set up a reward or how much you are willing to pay for transporting the item.
i would have those commodities for like town upkeep (food, weapons, armor, building materials), or like when you build a building to have it put up like a purchase order that you can either sell to the building or bring in with the caravan from another town.
One thing I would like to see is intro/outro transition of the caravan. Right now it's appearing out of thin air. I'd look at Fantastic Beasts - Crimes of Grindewald and how the circus collapses together. That type of animation would be sweet and fit the world.
Another great stream, 10/10!
I loved almost everything about the caravan showcase. I would have loved to have seen the caravan successfully defended against an attacking group of players though.
The one thing I really need to see is an (perhaps imperative) addition to the risk in the Risk & Reward game design pillar of AoC. This addition would be environmental damage! It would be another thing that players would have to think about before taking a particular route from one node to another with a caravan. Is the road well developed? Has there been an event nearby that has harmed the health of the trail?
Falling trees, volcanoes, harsh rain, heat and cold are some examples of environmental things that could potentially damage the caravans and players.
Thanks,
TESTUDO.
I think it was good so far, but could've provided more info and details. I noticed a lot of comments critiquing the caravan system are from people who have never had experience with something like this before so they just don't really know what it's supposed to be about or what its purpose is. I personally have played Archeage so I am familiar with the way it works, but I felt like the preview kind of assumes you already know about what the caravan system is.
-What excites you about playing and interacting with the Caravan system?
The potential of pvp, finding the best routes to avoid being seen, the grouping up with friends and the fun we would have together, the paths for defender or attacker, etc. It's a great system for adding lots of possible interactions into the game.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Caravan System Preview?
It's hard to tell really because the preview really didn't showcase much, so can't really say a lot about it.
Do you have thoughts or feelings regarding some of the aspects of Caravans, such as Caravan components, Glint, Commodities, Exchange Rates, etc?
a) I like that you can customize the caravan components, I think that's a great idea.
b) Since this game isn't a sandbox mmo where you farm and collect specific resources that you grow, the glint system makes sense. I also like the simplicity of the glint system. While I did appreciate that in Archeage you had to gather specific materials for specific commodities, I feel like I am indifferent as to whether we need materials or glint, so I am happy either way. I also think that bosses should drop a rare glint that can be turned into a commodity using just 1 of that rare glint.
c)There is the potential to include something like stronger monsters dropping higher quality glint that you can make commodities with that provide greater income possibly.
d) One problem that Archeage had was that because commodities was really the main source of gold income in the game, people were turning in commodities at high rates to the point that exchange rates became so low, and it felt like we were working so hard for so little reward. So I am not sure what kind of system you have in place to balance this out. Also there was no details as to whether certain nodes produce certain specialty commodities, so I can't comment on that.
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
As mentioned I played Archeage, so I have experience with the caravan system. Overall I really like it, it adds an aspect of high risk high reward to the game with pvp inbuilt into it that can be opt into, which I think is great.
One other thing I want to mention is that in Archeage, you had factions, and so as long as you were within your own faction's territory, you were safe, and you only had to worry about getting attacked while transporting commodities when you were in pvp areas where enemy faction could attack you. In AOC, there are no factions, so anyone can potentially attack you anywhere... and I feel like there will be quite a number of people who specifically aim to become "pirates" that just hunt caravans. I know based on Archeage, people at the end game became pirates simply because it was fun and they were bored of other things. A lot of the time these people tend to be highly geared and stronger than most people.... so my concern is how does AOC aim to balance something like this out where "pirates" will basically have no restriction as to where they will be able to attack caravans.
Another thing I want to mention is that in Archeage, the caravan/ship commodities system was actually a lot more fun in earlier versions of the game. In later versions of the game, they changed it to make it safer, which significantly restricted the potential for pvp, and it was way overtuned to the point that the system was just no longer fun or interesting.
So something to consider for the AOC team is how you plan on balancing this out so that people who aren't as hardcore can still participate without getting griefed constantly by pirates, while also at the same time, not restricting it and overtuning it so much that it ruins the high risk high reward aspect of it... because in the end of the day the caravan system should be all about deciding how much risk you're going to take in order to reap higher rewards. So perhaps it can be as simple as people opting for shorter safer routes for less rewards, or risk higher travel distance for higher rewards.
Overall, as someone who enjoys pvp, I am very happy that this game has the caravan system and am excited to participate in it!
буду общаться с вами на вашем языке чтобы друг друга могли понять !)
We have communities from Russia and Ukraine playing the game Linage 2, we just spend years in this game and want to try something new and stumbled upon you. The PVP system, clan battles for the castle, trades and exchanges of currencies and things (Buying and selling) are very important to us. You have done everything very well and we are happy about it ! I would very much like a key for the test , since two YouTube videos about your project have already amazed us and I want to get closer to your creation !
There are also streamers from Russia and they don 't mind testing your game by showing it on their stream ) my contact email : ellouze.sofien@yandex.ru
We will be grateful for your response and approval in testing this game
I anticipated it to be as it is.
But I have to watch the stream once more in detail. So I will maybe post again an update.
[*] What excites you about playing and interacting with the Caravan system?
I like that there is freedom to move everywhere with the caravan.
[*] Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Caravan System Preview?
Might end up boring if player density is low.
If player density is high, will players still leave the city? Will they have to fight and win battles every step?
The spawning of the caravan needs improved with more immersion.
There must be ways to camouflage the caravan. We are in a magic world.
Let mages be able to cast heavy fog and others lift the fog with expensive potions. The fog should happen naturally too.
Maybe it could be a portal with a long cooldown, usable to enter with the caravan and exit at a close location. Both entry and exit should have a player nearby, holding it open. The cooldown should be on caravan passing through it.
Let be creatures in the wild which get startled by humans and predators. Seeing them would make players aware that something or someone is there: maybe a caravan, or caravan robbers. Can also distract.
The two horses pulling the caravan are too in sync and identical. Make it more obvious that they are two creatures and not one thing which pulls another thing.
The caravan should be able to transport players and live creatures too. Players could sneak in and out of cities, maybe evade bounty hunters if climb into it on the road. BH could investigate caravans.
Thinking the same here. That looks sick.
One could shrink the insane Radius of how far the Attackers get knocked back -> but adding something like a SLOW-Effect for a few Seconds when they were affected.
That way, they would be slower when returning to the Caravan Wagon to attack it,
and it would still be effective even without being knocked like Fifty Meters or Hundred. x')
Jepp, we need definitely a few more Caravan Streams. One with way more Progress in the Future compared to what was inside now, would be awesome.