Homogenization of classes and loss of class identity.
Another of the many Problems of WoW, by the way ... ...
... ... even if i have the Impression it got weaker over the last Years - it feels like every Class can do everything to some extent. Self-heal, Stun, Tanking and Damage.
Imagine a Rogue, or a Warrior or Knight, who actually "NEEDS" a Healer in Order to get efficiently healed in Combat. Doesn't matter if it's PvE or PvP.
" Make Classes Great Again " (lol). Make it so that Classes feel like they are "NEEDED" again by their respective other Classes.
I personally played WoW before and there were three things at the time that made me go "nope":
1) Unnatural divide between PvP and PvE
While playing WoW the notion of PvP basically does not exist and even on PvP server it is dare I say almost pointless. The best example for that is where open world PvP actually made sense: In Burning Crusade, there were some PvP objectives you could take over when you are flagged and if you took them over your faction gained a bonus from it.
The divide however made for such a stark contrast that most did not want to participate at all. Additionally the stats required for PvP were vastly different from what PvE gameplay requires.
IMO here lies much of the potential for Ashes: While there won't be a single best-in-slot item, I hope that stats have more equal advantages in PvE and PvP so that a gearset against Frost giants would also be strong against an Ice Mage.
2) Unsocial Gameplay
When I returned after 2 years to see how the game had changed I found that the best way to level was no longer to engage with the world, doing quests and such, but to pop open the dungeon finder, click on "start search" and then waltz through a dungeon. People were teleported inside, most didn't say or replied to a "hi", nobody talked tactics because there were in-game guides for all dungeons including creature description & role guides. So without any communication you'd run through the dungeon gain tons of XP and as soon as the boss was looted everyone just quit the group without a word, got teleported back to town and repeated the process until they hit the level cap.
Then you got a segment of fun & engaging quests that layed out the story but that were solo experiences that resulted in... unlocking max level dailies. Yeah, finally back in the loop. The new loop was now to farm dungeons and do dailies in between, all of which was possible without making a single acquaintance.
IMO that made WoW and empty OSLG (Online Solo Lobby Game) rather than a MMORPG.
3) Overall level of difficulty
I guess there is not as much to say about this than with the two previous points: WoW wasn't a very difficult game in general but the overall challenge level fell even more with each consecutive expansion to the point were encounters tended to become boring.
CONCLUSION
I don't expect perfection but as the mantra about Ashes goes: "Ashes is not for everyone" and I hope Intrepid stays true to the notion to not compromise their most engaging features to increase player numbers.
Well said! One thing I thing we must consider regarding PvP is that Ashes does not have factions. Anyone can essentially kill anyone. I was watching old school Lineage 2 world PvP (Never played it) and thought it seemed very interesting. One interesting phenomena that occurs in WoW Classic is that eventually one faction wins. Take a look at the server demographics. There are a variety of factors that lead to this. When one side is losing, people quickly bail. When one side is the clear winner, it gets a little boring as well. Eventually the gap is so large that there is no point in trying anymore. Ashes will not have this because anyone can essentially kill anyone. I think Alpha 2 will be a great time to play with the Corruption system and see how severe penalties should be. This will make or break world PvP imo. It will be interesting to see where it ends up.
"The gods do not fear death. They greet death as an old friend. When your time comes to return to the ashes, move forward knowing death is merely one of many paths to a new adventure."
Nothing that other games did or do brought me to Ashes. I still play the same games I always have. I love mmorpg's and I look to play as many as I can, while still enjoying each one for what it is. I play New world, POE, GW2, ESO, and WOW. Each one brings me joy in it's own way. I will continue to play these even while I play ashes of creation. I do hope for more open world content though and not everything being so instanced.
First thing that caught my attention about Aoc was the number of offered classes, showing hopefully a huge variety in game play.
What has gotten me stay interested in something Steven said, "This game is not for everyone and if you don't like X Core Feature then go play something else." That made me think huh maybe this game will actually be different and not be like all the other current mmo's that feel like easy mode and trying to please everyone.
I miss the days where MMO's were hard, unforgiving and they required skill to play.
I personally played WoW before and there were three things at the time that made me go "nope":
1) Unnatural divide between PvP and PvE
While playing WoW the notion of PvP basically does not exist and even on PvP server it is dare I say almost pointless. The best example for that is where open world PvP actually made sense: In Burning Crusade, there were some PvP objectives you could take over when you are flagged and if you took them over your faction gained a bonus from it.
The divide however made for such a stark contrast that most did not want to participate at all. Additionally the stats required for PvP were vastly different from what PvE gameplay requires.
IMO here lies much of the potential for Ashes: While there won't be a single best-in-slot item, I hope that stats have more equal advantages in PvE and PvP so that a gearset against Frost giants would also be strong against an Ice Mage.
2) Unsocial Gameplay
When I returned after 2 years to see how the game had changed I found that the best way to level was no longer to engage with the world, doing quests and such, but to pop open the dungeon finder, click on "start search" and then waltz through a dungeon. People were teleported inside, most didn't say or replied to a "hi", nobody talked tactics because there were in-game guides for all dungeons including creature description & role guides. So without any communication you'd run through the dungeon gain tons of XP and as soon as the boss was looted everyone just quit the group without a word, got teleported back to town and repeated the process until they hit the level cap.
Then you got a segment of fun & engaging quests that layed out the story but that were solo experiences that resulted in... unlocking max level dailies. Yeah, finally back in the loop. The new loop was now to farm dungeons and do dailies in between, all of which was possible without making a single acquaintance.
IMO that made WoW and empty OSLG (Online Solo Lobby Game) rather than a MMORPG.
3) Overall level of difficulty
I guess there is not as much to say about this than with the two previous points: WoW wasn't a very difficult game in general but the overall challenge level fell even more with each consecutive expansion to the point were encounters tended to become boring.
CONCLUSION
I don't expect perfection but as the mantra about Ashes goes: "Ashes is not for everyone" and I hope Intrepid stays true to the notion to not compromise their most engaging features to increase player numbers.
Well said! One thing I thing we must consider regarding PvP is that Ashes does not have factions. Anyone can essentially kill anyone. I was watching old school Lineage 2 world PvP (Never played it) and thought it seemed very interesting. One interesting phenomena that occurs in WoW Classic is that eventually one faction wins. Take a look at the server demographics. There are a variety of factors that lead to this. When one side is losing, people quickly bail. When one side is the clear winner, it gets a little boring as well. Eventually the gap is so large that there is no point in trying anymore. Ashes will not have this because anyone can essentially kill anyone. I think Alpha 2 will be a great time to play with the Corruption system and see how severe penalties should be. This will make or break world PvP imo. It will be interesting to see where it ends up.
Yes! With alliances basically being temporary and the system relying on change at all times, I am fairly optimistic that this kind of boring unbreakable dominance of any kind of faction will not occur. If a faction dominates too long that will basically "lock content" in their area of dominance. This will eventually become boring for losely allied players who will seek new content outside of their territory, this weakens them and encourages "enemy" factions to make their move on them. At some point one of these attacks will be successful or the drain of players from their territory will cause the faction to fall apart and make way for change. This could theoretically result in "seasons" where PvP is more or less in focus. When new territories have established themselves they can focus more on PvE, which creates incentives for more PvP as there is more to distribute when defeating a wealthy enemy rather than a poor one.
I'm really looking forward to contributing to the data collection for Intrepid to make that happen.
Every game has at least a few flaws. All that matters is if you personally enjoy its strengths more than you are annoyed by its weaknesses. I've got plenty of other MMOs that I enjoy despite their flaws, so I wouldn't say they "brought me to AoC". In general, I don't think it makes sense to follow a game just because of things you dislike in other games. I'm here because AoC has cool ideas for it's Node gameplay/economy and deep character specialization.
But anyways, in the spirit of the thread, the only flaw I can't stand is gacha progression. Not just literal pay-to-win gacha games, but also stuff like Diablo loot with its multiple layers of randomness. Any time you grind for an upgrade, and there's no telling how long it will take for a worthwhile drop to appear. You might get something close, but 1 or 2 stats are trash, and you have only two bad options: Use the mediocre item or keep grinding. And then you might get something super strong, but it wasn't really what you wanted for your build, so you have to alter your build to make use of it... I don't know how random the gear progression in Ashes will be, but it probably won't be that bad.
I also don't like it when the art is mostly dull/muddy/grey/bleak, but I can deal with that if it makes sense for the game. AoC is thankfully high-fantasy enough to involve a lot of color, so no worries there.
Pay to Win, boring/tedious content, not enough or 0 PvP content, optional/toggleable PvP, Having PvP separated from the rest of the game, easy combat, making the entire game convenient and bubble wrapped like its made for toddlers, fast travel for everyone, everyone gets a flying mount, participation trophies, no risk, a queue finder that finds a group for you and instantly teleports you to the dungeon. Why bother having a massive open world if everyone can just teleport to the other side for 0 cost or fly over it? You might as well make a lobby based game like League of Legends or Counter Strike at that point instead of spending massive amounts of time and money to create this huge world that will be bypassed completely and disregarded. The journey is what makes the game, the challenge. If you take that out and make everything easy and convenient, you end up with a lame ass boring MMO like most of the ones we have now days.
Comments
Cross-server dungeon finders and other such things that eliminate the need to interact with other players.
EZ-mode content (yet another thing that eliminates the need to interact with other players).
Another of the many Problems of WoW, by the way ... ...
... ... even if i have the Impression it got weaker over the last Years - it feels like every Class can do everything to some extent. Self-heal, Stun, Tanking and Damage.
Imagine a Rogue, or a Warrior or Knight, who actually "NEEDS" a Healer in Order to get efficiently healed in Combat. Doesn't matter if it's PvE or PvP.
" Make Classes Great Again " (lol). Make it so that Classes feel like they are "NEEDED" again by their respective other Classes.
Well said! One thing I thing we must consider regarding PvP is that Ashes does not have factions. Anyone can essentially kill anyone. I was watching old school Lineage 2 world PvP (Never played it) and thought it seemed very interesting. One interesting phenomena that occurs in WoW Classic is that eventually one faction wins. Take a look at the server demographics. There are a variety of factors that lead to this. When one side is losing, people quickly bail. When one side is the clear winner, it gets a little boring as well. Eventually the gap is so large that there is no point in trying anymore. Ashes will not have this because anyone can essentially kill anyone. I think Alpha 2 will be a great time to play with the Corruption system and see how severe penalties should be. This will make or break world PvP imo. It will be interesting to see where it ends up.
What has gotten me stay interested in something Steven said, "This game is not for everyone and if you don't like X Core Feature then go play something else." That made me think huh maybe this game will actually be different and not be like all the other current mmo's that feel like easy mode and trying to please everyone.
I miss the days where MMO's were hard, unforgiving and they required skill to play.
Yes! With alliances basically being temporary and the system relying on change at all times, I am fairly optimistic that this kind of boring unbreakable dominance of any kind of faction will not occur. If a faction dominates too long that will basically "lock content" in their area of dominance. This will eventually become boring for losely allied players who will seek new content outside of their territory, this weakens them and encourages "enemy" factions to make their move on them. At some point one of these attacks will be successful or the drain of players from their territory will cause the faction to fall apart and make way for change. This could theoretically result in "seasons" where PvP is more or less in focus. When new territories have established themselves they can focus more on PvE, which creates incentives for more PvP as there is more to distribute when defeating a wealthy enemy rather than a poor one.
I'm really looking forward to contributing to the data collection for Intrepid to make that happen.
But anyways, in the spirit of the thread, the only flaw I can't stand is gacha progression. Not just literal pay-to-win gacha games, but also stuff like Diablo loot with its multiple layers of randomness. Any time you grind for an upgrade, and there's no telling how long it will take for a worthwhile drop to appear. You might get something close, but 1 or 2 stats are trash, and you have only two bad options: Use the mediocre item or keep grinding. And then you might get something super strong, but it wasn't really what you wanted for your build, so you have to alter your build to make use of it... I don't know how random the gear progression in Ashes will be, but it probably won't be that bad.
I also don't like it when the art is mostly dull/muddy/grey/bleak, but I can deal with that if it makes sense for the game. AoC is thankfully high-fantasy enough to involve a lot of color, so no worries there.