What I'm most excited about is crafting being important and leveling up crafting skills being a major achievement, instead of something you wrap up in a weekend.
Not much to say here. Nothing really blew me away, but it all looked good. Solid. I like the darker night. I really like certain gathering materials only being available at night and vice versa. Not sure why more games haven't done this.
-loved the look of the broadsword someone was carrying.
-loved the look of the finished crafted sword
-loved the robust nature of the entire system start to finish.
-love that there is three separate and distinct branches of crafting that are all equally necessary.
-love the need to specialize as the journey into crafting deepens.
-love that crafting will always be where the best gear / weapons come from.
-love the idea that some ingredients are only available at night (in winter? When it rains? Etc? What other conditions?)
-I’m undecided about the darkness of the night time. Need to play alpha 2 and will give more feedback then. I really don’t like not being able to see the game world at night, and, I’m hopeful you’ll figure it out!
-don’t love the idea of limited use patterns. The feels unnecessary and my mind can come up with scenarios where that would heartbreaking. Rarity of ingredients and patterns is enough. Bad luck protection on pattern drops.
-id like to better understand how the intended crafting economy will work. As a processor, do I just make money off my machines? Or can a critical success yield extra items for me? As a top level gatherer, can I critical success double my gather, where lower skills can’t do that? As a top level crafter do I just make money off selling crafting, or can I critical success a double-make and I keep one? Or critical success use 8 platinum ingots instead of 10, and I can decided to keep them, sell them, or give them back? Will there be a work order system like WoW where people can send me orders while I’m off line and I fulfill them when I come on? Is there a work order board that I check for more work and cash-on-delivery mail an item back to the person who commissioned it?
The Artisanship Livestream was really nice.
Just want to add my 2 cents into it
It would be cool when someone crafts something that the Name of the Crafter is written in the Item Info Panel, for Example: Crafted/Mastercraft/Legendary Crafted by XXXX
At the entire Crafting situation, it would be really cool to implement "mini games" into the crafting from material processing into finishing a product. With this the Player needs to be active when he crafts something.
so some Possible szenarios:
Inactive while crafting / Processing: You get the lowest Quality item
Active but Minigame missed most of the time: You get a little bit better item Quality
Active but Minigame 50% reached: You get a Normal Quality Item
Active but Minigame 75% reached: You get a litte bit better Quality then Normal
Active but Minigame 80% reached: You get a good Quality item
Active but Minigame 85% reached: You get a little bit better Good Quality Item
Active but Minigame 90% reached: you get a way bit better Good Quality Item
at 91% i would go 1-2% steps until 98% item Quality: you get a perfect crafted item
at 99% Minigame reached: you get a better Perfect crafted item
at 99,1 - 99,9% Minigame reached: you get way better perfect crafted item
and 100% Minigame Reached: You get a Unique Mastercrafted Item (only reachable from 100% Minigame reached while Processing the complete routine 100% until finished product at crafting with minigame 100%)
This way of crafting would Create absolute Unique Items
So for me i would afk craft "Food" or "consumables" if you craft these items "afk" without doing minigames, for example:
Food AFK craft: Lower Strength of Food and Lower Duration
Food Active Craft: Higher Strengh of Food and Higher Duration
Mastercraft Active Craft: Food Buff still active even when Dead + Bonus Stats + Bonus Duration
Potions AFK craft: Lower Healing/Mana, Lower restored Amount of Healing/Mana, Lower Duration 15 sec
Potion Active Craft: Higher Healing/Mana, Higher restored Amount of Healing/Mana, Higher Duration up to 20 sec.
Mastercraft Active Craft: Higher Healing/Mana, Higher restored Amount of Healing/Mana, Higher Duration up to 25-30 sec, + Small instant heal at beginning (5% of Max HP), up to 5-10 sec lower cooldown on Potions
Another cool thing would be to use a crafting Potion and add a ingridient into the Potion and craft it
for example:
You have a normal Healing Potion, you add a Ressource into the Potion which removes a debuff = Crafted item is a Healing Potion with Removing 1 debuff.
or:
You have a normal Healing Potion, You add Mana Potion = Crafted Item is a Serum healing and restoring mana at the same time
or:
you have a normal Healing Potion, You add a Ressource (Chilli ) which improves Fire Resistance = Finished Product, Healing Potion with Fire resistance for the duration of the Potion.
Im Sure something like this added to crafting would make Crafting literally Unique, and People would think about it if they wanna "waste" or use their Ressources "wisely".
The artisanship live-stream shows good things for the future and a good start for the crafting system to come.
My vision of crafting is as follows :
An autocraft system is good for mundane items which doesn't requires a higher quality result, like components (a sword hilt, an alchemy bottle, leather straps, sheets of paper for books,...).
A manual crafting system is good for more advanced items for which a higher quality result is sought, like mundane finished items (a sword, a healing a potion, a leather armor, a recipe book,...) and definitely for rare or specific items (the legendary fire sword of the hell's king, the elixir of life of the fairy queen of the heart of the oblivion forest,... or even just a regular +1 leather armor chest!).
As said by others, a player willing to spend most of his playing time crafting doesn't want to spend it looking at a NPC planing wooden boards for hours! He wants to plane wooden boards for hours himself! Joke aside, the NTC can plane as much as wooden boards as he wants, but that fu****g wooden house will not be 3D printed!!!
This means that a combat-oriented player which just needs a regular skinning knife in order to rise-up his skinning skill at the same time he is bashing mobs to level up, could just go to what ever shop to buy a what ever skinning knife because the quality of the item isn't important at all (skinning isn't this player main goal).
While a high priest would spend the required time to find the legendary master jeweler which will craft his legendary scepter of infinite life to go along his legendary the grimoire of understanding the subtleties of life in the ethereal planes.
However, I think it would be more accurate to say that a rare or legendary item cannot just be crafted by a legendary crafter, it would require as well a legendary crafting station and maybe legendary crafting tools too.
A legendary crafting station could be a old Titan forge located far underground in the Titans lair. Legendary crafting stations for which you need a group/raid to clean the way down and in order to use it you need a group of crafters to assist the legendary crafter who will make the much desired objects. The rarity of crafted items depends on the rarity of the crafting station used.
Vanguard Saga of heroes and EQ2 had/have a nice way/idea about active crafting. First it involves the player in his carfting session, second it makes it more difficult for bots to craft and third the player is responsible of what he is doing (not responsible about the % failure but responsible for not using the right skill during the process).
I want more complex manual crafting.
Processor artisans must focus and spend more time on doing their jobs, on multiple stations at once.
Please remove queued automated jobs and simple one stage no brainer recipes.
I haven't played a game with such a crafting system yet. I like that the creation of objects has a long time, which increases their value. for example, bad crafting: I can include almost all other games , I don't like that in games the creation of an item happens instantly , and people create hundreds of items for skill leveling in 1 second , roughly speaking . this leads to the fact that it is more profitable to collect resources and sell them on the market than to upgrade crafting and sell created items . and in almost all projects, I am always a collector and I am not interested in crafting because I can collect, sell and buy everything I need. and I really like collecting. At New World, I really enjoyed collecting because of the sounds that accompany you for hours, it's like meditation for me. and of course I will compare collecting in "ashes of creation" with "new world".
Hi!
I already have commented on this thread but some things came to mind after the community office hours chat
I have to admit I don't necessarily agree with (full) automation of the processing skill. I don't want a NPC doing all the work for me for most professions, even on lower levels, while I would get the processing XP.
However, even though I personally feel like putting the sweat into mass-processing myself, I also can see that processing 10.000 logs all by hand is not fun either.
There are some processing professions that don't need you to be around at all time, and some do. And some work could indeed be taken over by a NPC
So, here's my suggestion: Split the professions in two by these 2 lists, and have player interacting within the professions like the following:
Non-manual or light manual work needed
Farming
Plant seeds, wait until you get a popup in chat when your plants are ready for harvest. This should take some night-day cycles, the rarer a plant the longer it takes to fully grow. The higher a level, the more points one could spend to decrease that time (though not by too much imho)
Cooking
Insert ingredients into cauldron. Set temperature to a low boil or high boil for different results. Wait until done. Maybe stir every once in a while.
Lumber Milling
Insert x amount of wood into sawmill installation. The higher advanced the node is and your level, the bigger the station you can use, and the more logs a player can process at once. and wait until all your logs have been processed.
Stonemasonry
Same thing, maybe choose a template first for the shape of the stones you want them to be cut in.
Manual
Animal husbandry
After you hunted 2 or more beasts, place them in a fenced of area and feed them, train them in whatever skills you would like them to be trained in. Does not need constant care though, animals could be left alone for a while. But progress needs interaction from the player.
Tanning
Evaluate the hide and trim off edges. Remove the flesh. Soak in water or a bucking solution. Scrape off grain and membrane. Wring out moisture. Apply braining solution. Wring hide. Repeat braining and wringing.
Soften your hide. Smoke to preserve softness.
I just googled how to tan hides, some steps could be thrown out or simplified for gameplay reasons.
Weaving
Choose pattern and wait for a short animation to make the item or the higher your level, the more items you can make at once.
Alchemy
Not sure about this yet
Metalworking
I would like to crush my own ore, however the higher my level and the node equipment, the more I can crush per crushing animation cycle. Also the bigger your furnace, the larger amount of ingots one could make.
Most importantly I think the automation of the processing should evolve by the level of the node. If you start in the wilderness, even for a grandmaster lumbermiller that just lost his metropolis to a siege and has to start anew, the node doesn't have the necessary equipment to automate the process yet.
This is just a rough picture of my idea, but i hope you like it.
Not a fan of recipe XP.
It feels bad to craft 1 recipe over and over again, and most likely it will only be THAT specific recipe because of the mats to gold ratio. The product probably won't even be sold on the market ...
I'm also not sure about the tetris style inventory system yet. What's wrong with a standard grid inventory? We don't need to re-invent the wheel for everything. Just make the inventory have intuitive tabs and lots of space.
Hi!
I already have commented on this thread but some things came to mind after the community office hours chat
I have to admit I don't necessarily agree with (full) automation of the processing skill. I don't want a NPC doing all the work for me for most professions, even on lower levels, while I would get the processing XP.
However, even though I personally feel like putting the sweat into mass-processing myself, I also can see that processing 10.000 logs all by hand is not fun either.
There are some processing professions that don't need you to be around at all time, and some do. And some work could indeed be taken over by a NPC
So, here's my suggestion: Split the professions in two by these 2 lists, and have player interacting within the professions like the following:
Non-manual or light manual work needed
Farming
Plant seeds, wait until you get a popup in chat when your plants are ready for harvest. This should take some night-day cycles, the rarer a plant the longer it takes to fully grow. The higher a level, the more points one could spend to decrease that time (though not by too much imho)
Cooking
Insert ingredients into cauldron. Set temperature to a low boil or high boil for different results. Wait until done. Maybe stir every once in a while.
Lumber Milling
Insert x amount of wood into sawmill installation. The higher advanced the node is and your level, the bigger the station you can use, and the more logs a player can process at once. and wait until all your logs have been processed.
Stonemasonry
Same thing, maybe choose a template first for the shape of the stones you want them to be cut in.
Manual
Animal husbandry
After you hunted 2 or more beasts, place them in a fenced of area and feed them, train them in whatever skills you would like them to be trained in. Does not need constant care though, animals could be left alone for a while. But progress needs interaction from the player.
Tanning
Evaluate the hide and trim off edges. Remove the flesh. Soak in water or a bucking solution. Scrape off grain and membrane. Wring out moisture. Apply braining solution. Wring hide. Repeat braining and wringing.
Soften your hide. Smoke to preserve softness.
I just googled how to tan hides, some steps could be thrown out or simplified for gameplay reasons.
Weaving
Choose pattern and wait for a short animation to make the item or the higher your level, the more items you can make at once.
Alchemy
Not sure about this yet
Metalworking
I would like to crush my own ore, however the higher my level and the node equipment, the more I can crush per crushing animation cycle. Also the bigger your furnace, the larger amount of ingots one could make.
Most importantly I think the automation of the processing should evolve by the level of the node. If you start in the wilderness, even for a grandmaster lumbermiller that just lost his metropolis to a siege and has to start anew, the node doesn't have the necessary equipment to automate the process yet.
This is just a rough picture of my idea, but i hope you like it.
Thanks for reading
I agree with this concept, I was thinking the same thing. Full automation is a bad idea because it allows players to set it and forget it and that needs to be kept to a minimum if you want a functional economy. It doesn't have to be so black and white, you can have tasks or professions that are more involved and others that are less involved.
A good example is farming. You plant the seed, water it every day or so, harvest it when it's grown and that's it. Cooking is another, add the ingredients over a fire and stir once in a while. The pot starts bubbling or food turns a certain color to indicate its done. Then you can have stuff like woodcutting which requires the player to be more involved, processing logs into planks or whatever the end product is. Having a worker to help you should be unlocked from higher level service buildings and even then they shouldn't be doing everything for you, they should help speed up the process.
Some people don't get that if you make things super easy and convenient to process, the market will be flooded with those products and nothing will be worth anything. But if there's a necessary time and effort investment to create them, that's what will make things have value.
There's been a lot of chatter about the logic gap between the certification system and using NPCs to do the work in Processing. Rather than re-inventing the wheel on how processing works, could it be a workable solution to modify the certification storyline such that Processing Certification grants "rank" recognized globally by Node Labor Union/Guild that handles processing?
Under this proposed system, only with the appropriate rank in the Union (ie. processing certification tier) would a player get access to the appropriate NPC to handle the player's order. In effect, higher tier-certified players would get access to labor that is more experienced and produces better and higher tier results, and processing timelines.
For immersion purposes, the dialogued laborer's interaction could slowly become more respectful as the player's tier becomes higher.
It would also follow appropriately that better laborers can be found using better tools at upgraded stations and the best laborers can only be found in Freeholds where their talents are truly appreciated (ie. their pay and work-life balance is the highest with access to the best processing equipment).
Options could also exist for the Player to interact directly with the NPC in some way to oversee even better results (to make it less than 100% automated) - but that would require additional dev work whereas limiting it to the change above could easily be implemented via story dialogue.
I liked the different levels of commitment for the various artisan skills and types.
Personally for the gameplay layer, would like a mini-game mechanic like the classic game, "The awful green things from outer space" In that game you have to try out weapons, and then draw a result at random, for their effect, so every playthrough is different.
The beauty of this is that every node could randomly have a different set of outcomes, catalysts and ingredients. No guides, just trial and error unique for every server, or if you want to any degree, every craftsman, maybe tilted to their archetype, race, religion etc. You could make it really deep with some sort of pattern for ingredients that could also be shuffled by deity or race or both making it difficult, but not impossible to work out.
If you did this then it would require a lot of trial and error, and craftsmen would be tilted to, more often, creating gear for themselves. You could also put in some amusing failures, when craftsmen get the recipe wrong.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Artisanship system?
The inclusive nature of every character having a role in the economy is a big plus. I love the idea of a breathing and evolving economy with materials tied to system/season states, and the limitations on grand master professions. We've seen MMO's fail horribly with crafting/economy as an afterthought and be meaningless...*cough*NW*cough*. Overall things are looking good from what was shown. Although I do have some concerns, posted below.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Artisanship Preview?
Overall excited to get get in game and give everything a run through in A2. I unfortunately don't have Star Wars Galaxies experience, which seems to be a big inspiration from what has been said and noted by the devs for crafting. Personally I'm a huge advocate for what Lineage 2 brought to the table in crafting, even though the game in whole lacked systems/diversity, it was successful in fostering the type of community play ashes is aiming for, as the game was designed completely around the same PvX philosophy and player cooperation.
From what I saw in the dev update, the amount of materials needed to craft was extremely basic. Just a few pieces of lumber and zinc fragments, along with the required Moonbell and night opal...I'm guessing this is just a showcase example, and won't be real world. But that is by far my biggest concern. I understand that the limited resource nature will have an impact on the amount of materials for crafting/economy. Unlike L2 where mats were gathered by killing mobs, and as such were not as limited behind lengthy spawn timers on material nodes. But I must point out that L2 has been by far the best crafting experience I had seen in an MMO (not being a SWG experiencer). The amount of materials needed to craft, the processing from a low grade material to a higher grade, to an even higher along with the main weapon component fragments plus recipe was honestly damn good. Probably a bit excessive to current MMO Standards, but that can obviously be tweaked and tailored.
Now obviously I'm not sure how high grade crafts will play out in Ashes, as we don't have that information yet, with the craft shown during showcase being early to mid level I would presume? But the amount of materials is my biggest concern, it just seemed too simple material wise, as well as complexity. Coupling that with the news that you can grandmaster two professions, leads me to believe a need for more depth in the crafting system compared to what was shown.
L2 did have flaws, as it was much more limited in scope for crafting participation as it was gated behind dwarven race restriction. Regardless of that, the system did build reputable players known on servers as crafters with their recipe books, fees for services, etc. It offered notoriety for known crafters that sold their services and wares, or leaned more towards a guild/alliance crafting focused. Opening the entire processing and crafting to all players is honestly a nice and appropriate approach. So definitely looking forward to how AoC's more flexible and open approach will roll out. But the more reliance is built for the three to intermingle with each other, as well as the open market, is a plus.
From what was glimpsed in the dev update, I'm hoping for something with a bit more teeth from L2, as the recipe construction of L2 was fantastic. Considering L2 was one of Steven's biggest inspirations which can easily be seen by the plethora of systems developed for AoC, hoping it'll show some signs in the crafting as well.
I loved the idea in L2 taking large amounts of iron ore and processing it to Steel, then Mithril Alloy. Same for Animal Bones, to bone powder, to varnish of purity, to artisan frames, and then craftsman molds. Taking large amounts of base materials, and crafting to fewer needed higher tier mats for higher grade crafts. It had a very well thought out material tree that just felt right. It took a long while to do high grade crafts, but as a result, felt completely earned, and seeing someone with such a weapon was definitely a symbol of power, coupled along with the enchanting system, would spark more uneasiness if said weapon had a red glow.
Overall, every item was needed to be preprocessed to higher tier materials, which ties very well with AoC's design philosophy of completing the whole picture in crafting and economy. Coupling that along with main weapon components (blade pieces, edges, etc) and consumed recipes would be great to see, which this specific part seems to be already be planned to some form or extent?
In L2, materials were more plentiful as it was all tied to PvE drops, which would definitely have to be tweaked for AoC's design direction as resources are more limited. Maybe incorporating these elements in crafting along with procced higher tier mats would work well for the item rarity direction AoC is taking. Which would foster demand and market presence of higher tiered materials, furthering economy. L2 did not have tiered rarity in gear, as that was handled by enchanting to differ the same item among the player base, so the formula would definitely need to be tweaked for Ashes approach of item rarity of the same craft, but would definitely add what the crafting system currently lacks, a bit more depth.
The showcase in itself was good, But seemed too simplistic for a legendary tier craft. Now I understand it was a lower level legendary craft...But If it ends up being a scenario where higher quality wood/fragments are gated behind gathering level, which is processed in the same fashion as the lower level mats of just refining into Mahogany Lumber instead of Oak Lumber for example, coupled along with a higher rarity variant of the zinc shown gated behind gathering levels once more in the open world, would be a true shame. A true lost opportunity to add some depth and complexity that is severely needed in my opinion. No need to make it as hardcore as L2, but at least pulling from some of the elements would give the depth it needs.
Now don't get me wrong, there are no problems with a more casual friendly approach, our time is valuable, but this just seemed a bit too basic and lacked enough substance to make it feel rewarding...not enough effort, for possibly too big of a reward for it being legendary. Especially when tied to the flagging and corruption system of Ashes, which is entirely L2's Karma and flagging system, would make sense to make crafts have a larger sense of worth, hence a bigger risk if lost. Which in turn would defer people from rampantly pk'ing.
Obviously take everything I've said with a grain of salt, as we have very little to go off except what was shown. If these idea's are already in the pipeline, fantastic...But just incase they aren't, believe it should be brought up to shore up a possible blind spot, as well as point out a heavily missed opportunity. Here's a sample image of a Lineage 2 recipe to further along the idea in case no one has experienced a system like it.
Now obviously it would need to be more simplified for Ashes, such as smaller item quantities, less unique specific items, etc...But would give it the depth it needs for crafting.
How do you feel about the full-cycle of Artisanship shown during the November livestream?
What is your impression of the dynamics shown with gathering? (E.g. Nightstone being invisible during the day, and visible at night)
I love the evolving nature of items being available and certain times of the day, season, or server state. Adds a nice level of complexity that will definitely draw value in certain items. I'm just hoping for some more teeth in the processing side, and hopefully larger list of items required in the recipes.
What is your impression of the crafting portion of the livestream? (E.g. Using fragments of various rarities to affect the stats of the item)
Good idea and concept. Once again, haven't played SWG, and not sure if this approach stems from it. But once again hoping for some more depth, as it seemed to simple a craft. In my mind it would bring more worth if a processor is taking a material from one form to another, then another, and so on for high level crafts. Which in turn would increase a processors role and bring value to said materials in the open market, even more so if some processed materials for crafting are proc'able.
For example, you could have a artisan frame be required for a weapon crafts, different types of ore would differentiate it's crafting level, think bronze, iron, steel, etc. A proc'able crafting mat that is required to make said artisan frame, such an "Iron Frame" (substitute metal for level range), and will have an impact on the rarity level once fully crafted by weapon crafter. An "Iron Frame" is processed out of iron ingots by a processor, adding to the material to material transition element a processor is known to do, and they would have a chance of crafting it into a regular, best, good quality standard via proccing, names just examples. When handed to the main crafter, the amount of the higher procced Iron Frames will determine the percentage chance of a higher procced artisan frame that is required for the main weapon craft, and will determine the weapon rarity (epic, heroic, legendary, etc)...Entwining the roles of the processor and crafter more so. This way the processor is more than just a base material creator.
The crafter would take the materials required, recipe, and the artisan frame he has made, and craft said weapon...if he used no higher quality Iron Frames, he'd have a 0 percent chance to go legendary, if he used 5 let's say, which is the max, he would have a 5% chance of going legendary, 30% heroic, 70% chance epic, etc...all determined by the iron frames used, if none were used, it would be common, uncommon, rare, etc...Of course this is just me making shit up, but just an idea that brings entwines both professions more so. But all up to tweaking/testing.
In terms of the opals, could be used as gemstone slots to improve weapon damage. For example when a weapon is crafted, regardless of rarity, there is a chance of being a one, two, or three slot weapon. As such can be slotted with a single or multiple night opals, or scarlet ember, or Gale jade, etc...Which could add dark damage, fire, wind, etc. All of which could be slotted after the weapon is crafted. If you want to take it a step further, can have the crafter used said gems during the construction of the weapon. Which as a result would make the effect slightly stronger compared to the removable/slotable variant of a finished weapon craft. So instead of being three opals that add 4 dark damage each slotted into the weapon, it would be three imbued opals during the craft that add 5 damage each that are not removable. Of course doing so would be more risky, as you are working with RNG in terms of how many slots are made during the weapon cast, and could end up with only two night opals imbued instead of the 3 night opals you committed, and hence lost an entire night opal in the process for 10 damage bump total, instead of the possible 12 with a slotted weapon.
There's obviously many ways to play it, but these are more RNG focused routes. Which I don't think is a bad approach to add more variety and weapon rarity beyond just the simple tiers of uncommon, common, rare, etc.
This would add a very nice amount of complexity to each roll in gathering, to processing, to crafting. You have gatherers who have to hunt and keep an eye out for said materials. With the added complexity of day/night cycles, seasons, server states, surverying. Have processors who have to proc certain main crafting mats, along with base mats for the market needs. Which finally leads up to the final crafters, which would be on the lookout of acquiring recipes for their recipe book, making networks for purchasing materials for crafting, etc...You could trade some responsibilities between the processor and crafter for some of these to accommodate, but I think this would be a much more rewarding and fulfilling crafting experience/system.
The more interplay there is between the gatherer, processor, and crafter roll, the better the economy will flourish, and aims of AoC as a whole have to succeed. Seeing what AoC is aiming for, it's plethora of systems, and heavily leaning on the same PvX philosophy that made L2 so good has me excited as all hell. The more community and players have to rely on other players, the better. That's what will make this game succeed where others over the past two decades have been failing at. The crafting system needs to be injected with this philosophy as much as possible, with a bit of complexity that makes it more rewarding.
Now this would definitely be a song and dance that needs to be tweaked and coordinated to work well in Ashe's system of scarcer resources, but would add more depth and meaning to the system if done so.
Hello Intrepid. I'm new here in the last 24 hours, but I watched this video and have officially joined the hype. Congrats on such a great-looking game so far. I look forward to contributing to this community. My feedback below is biased by positive and negative experiences primarily in Ultima Online (5 years), World of Warcraft (6 years), Minecraft (3 years), and New World (6 months).
What I loved:
The note about some recipes having limited uses (I'd suggest most should)
Dynamic/Unpredictable resources (yes, the night-only visibility is cool)
The Un-polished UI seemed like it was heading in the right direction
Separate XP for each artisanship (recommend making this very difficult to get to Grand Master)
Dependency on other players' skills/resources (a key enabler of meaningful economy)
You cannot Master every artisanship. Hugely important. Thank you.
What I liked:
Processing takes time.
Quality of subcomponents affects end-quality of item
Artisanship talent points and the talent tree (would a Grand Master have them all or have to be selective?)
Gathering visuals (it's remarkably similar to New World, but, it's very satisfying)
Minor Concerns:
The 22/5/4/3/2 spread for progression limits. This could be a difficult balance to get right. I'm not even sure what to recommend - so many unknowns about where player-driven bottlenecks will be.
I didn't fully understand the station limits such as 5x players at a time? I don't dislike the idea of competing for finite infrastructure, but... I'm curious how this will play out.
Major Concerns:
The significance of grandmaster artisans through the availability of rare recipes (see below).
Mid-tier subcomponent importance (see below)
My two cents on rare recipes. They need to be progressively more rare. It should be a big deal for a grandmaster on the server to get a hold of a BOP recipe with 10 charges of some great item. Or a big deal for someone to come across a BOE world drop that could sell for a very high price. I always loved logging in to hear a friend say, "Hey, someone in our sister guild found the recipe for a katana I think you'd want." That's the good stuff. This not only creates exceptional excitement for those that get them, but it also creates that dopamine hit for all of us thinking, "this could be the mob/node where I get lucky". I plead with the developers not to water-down a beautifully crafted system by handing out the best recipes like candy.
Regarding mid-tier subcomponents, I imagine crafters will use the most common (easy to get) components to craft low-quality items for XP points. Conversely, they will always use the rarest (hard to get) components to craft high-quality items for use/sale. Several months after launch, how will demand for mid-tier resources be driven?
In closing, I have a few ideas for what I'd like to see added but I'm very sensitive to scope creep. I think what was shown in the video is well on its way to be a great system at launch and I look forward to hearing about the iterative refinement.
Thank you.
Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times. Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times.
I am extremely passionate about Skill-Based Artisanship! (SBA) ✨ I’ll be concise here, but I’d love to expand anytime. Adding an optional manual gameplay layer to Ashes’ artisanship has several key benefits:
🔴 Risk vs. Reward — One of Ashes’ core design principles! Skill-Based Artisanship could give players a Risk vs. Reward decision point: should I risk a slightly-worse result, and hope my skills give me a better one? This decision gains more tension—and potential value—at higher tiers of rarity & Artisanship.
🟠 Item Variance — As we’ve seen, Crafting allows variable material input to influence the final result. Involving manual player action is another chance for players to uniquely influence the end result of their effort. This could be ±stat tuning, a quality tier change, or unique effects applied—as simple as a metal’s reflective quality after a polishing attempt.
🟡 Growth — It feels good to get better at something! Right now, Artisanship growth looks to be tied to unlocking tools, recipes, and resource access. These are things that, over time, most or all Artisans will have. However, as you play your Archetype (e.g., Cleric), you get better at it; you understand skill interactions, you position better, etc. SBA would introduce systems that allow you to gain a similar sense of progress!
🟢 Skill Expression — Core MMO gameplay has a lot of “primary” skill expression: a well-timed dodge, a crafty ability rotation, a puzzle decoded. Artisanship, by default, doesn’t have this type of feeling. It’d be nice to get the same moments of “my talent did that!” when you’re Gathering, Processing, or Crafting.
🔵 Pride — It feels really cool to develop a reputation! — ((“I heard there’s a girl who has that recipe, and she’s REALLY good at the gem-dust infusion for the blade.”)) — With SBA, players can make it a point of pride that they can execute on recipes (especially high-level ones) better than others who have the same one. Maybe 100 people have a rare recipe, but only 10 are well-practiced enough to consistently maximize the value that SBA can provide.
🟣 Immersion — Artisanship is at its best when it feels like you’re truly involved. FFXIV has you kneel at a workstation; Minecraft has you place components in a specific shape; Kynseed has you perform several basic actions. These contribute to a satisfying feeling of “Hey, I’m really doing it!” 🛠️
🟤 More to Play With — As you approach Grandmaster Artisanship, more of these SBA systems could become present. Unlocking more “mechanic-based toys” over time would be enjoyable for an Artisan-focused player.
Note: SBA as an Optional Layer
⚫️ While there would be incentives to engage with it, Skill-Based Artisanship could be optional on a per-item basis, allowing players to opt-out due to temporary / general disinterest, a lack of necessity (e.g., low-level item or mass production), or accessibility reasons.
— ~ — ~ — ~ — ~ — ~ —
I could genuinely talk about this topic for hours. I strongly believe Skill-Based Artisanship is a worthy area of focus for Ashes—and I hope you do too. I didn’t get into my ideas for implementation, but I’d happily chat more with the Artisanship devs if they’d enjoy that~ Consider me on Discord speed-dial! 😊
Thank you so much for reading! ❤️
— Shae(ShdwFlm)
100% agree
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Regarding the UI
- I still think the UI needs work
- there did not appear to be a consistent style or theme across the different interfaces
- the scale of text appears legible on large screen, concern it may not scale and be legible for smaller screens
- the X (close) button was small
- viewing of items appeared small and nondescript
My only concern with gathering as it was shown is gathering tools having durability.
I hope it's not too frustrating to deal with.
Also a nice idea would be to allow players to have replacement tools in their backpack ready to replace the broken ones while they are out in the world gathering.
What is your impression of the dynamics shown with gathering?
I love the ideas you are working with, I have a suggestion in regards to chopping down trees: as a woodworker that I am and have cut down trees, even a chainsaw does not get a perfectly straight line like a laser has zipped it off.
In terms of a subtle change that would give it a little more to it, would be to make the axe cut have a jagged edge or a splintering effect as it inevitably "snaps and breaks" when it falls over.
- When cutting have you thought about adding in splinters or chunks of wood coming out as you are cutting?
- Your physics for the stones breaking when mined is beautiful, have you thought about adding in sparks or small chunks of rock/gem/dirt/dust chipping out with each hit?
hi, i loved the stream. i have only a few points i would like to add.
1. it might be nice if you choose all your professions in 1 field, that you can grandmaster 3 instead of 2.
2. the gathering tree seems a little empty compared to the other 2. maybe you can add seeds/herbs/plants as gatherables
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Artisanship system?
The inclusive nature of every character having a role in the economy is a big plus. I love the idea of a breathing and evolving economy with materials tied to system/season states, and the limitations on grand master professions. We've seen MMO's fail horribly with crafting/economy as an afterthought and be meaningless...*cough*NW*cough*. Overall things are looking good from what was shown. Although I do have some concerns, posted below.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Artisanship Preview?
Overall excited to get get in game and give everything a run through in A2. I unfortunately don't have Star Wars Galaxies experience, which seems to be a big inspiration from what has been said and noted by the devs for crafting. Personally I'm a huge advocate for what Lineage 2 brought to the table in crafting, even though the game in whole lacked systems/diversity, it was successful in fostering the type of community play ashes is aiming for, as the game was designed completely around the same PvX philosophy and player cooperation.
From what I saw in the dev update, the amount of materials needed to craft was extremely basic. Just a few pieces of lumber and zinc fragments, along with the required Moonbell and night opal...I'm guessing this is just a showcase example, and won't be real world. But that is by far my biggest concern. I understand that the limited resource nature will have an impact on the amount of materials for crafting/economy. Unlike L2 where mats were gathered by killing mobs, and as such were not as limited behind lengthy spawn timers on material nodes. But I must point out that L2 has been by far the best crafting experience I had seen in an MMO (not being a SWG experiencer). The amount of materials needed to craft, the processing from a low grade material to a higher grade, to an even higher along with the main weapon component fragments plus recipe was honestly damn good. Probably a bit excessive to current MMO Standards, but that can obviously be tweaked and tailored.
Now obviously I'm not sure how high grade crafts will play out in Ashes, as we don't have that information yet, with the craft shown during showcase being early to mid level I would presume? But the amount of materials is my biggest concern, it just seemed too simple material wise, as well as complexity. Coupling that with the news that you can grandmaster two professions, leads me to believe a need for more depth in the crafting system compared to what was shown.
L2 did have flaws, as it was much more limited in scope for crafting participation as it was gated behind dwarven race restriction. Regardless of that, the system did build reputable players known on servers as crafters with their recipe books, fees for services, etc. It offered notoriety for known crafters that sold their services and wares, or leaned more towards a guild/alliance crafting focused. Opening the entire processing and crafting to all players is honestly a nice and appropriate approach. So definitely looking forward to how AoC's more flexible and open approach will roll out. But the more reliance is built for the three to intermingle with each other, as well as the open market, is a plus.
From what was glimpsed in the dev update, I'm hoping for something with a bit more teeth from L2, as the recipe construction of L2 was fantastic. Considering L2 was one of Steven's biggest inspirations which can easily be seen by the plethora of systems developed for AoC, hoping it'll show some signs in the crafting as well.
I loved the idea in L2 taking large amounts of iron ore and processing it to Steel, then Mithril Alloy. Same for Animal Bones, to bone powder, to varnish of purity, to artisan frames, and then craftsman molds. Taking large amounts of base materials, and crafting to fewer needed higher tier mats for higher grade crafts. It had a very well thought out material tree that just felt right. It took a long while to do high grade crafts, but as a result, felt completely earned, and seeing someone with such a weapon was definitely a symbol of power, coupled along with the enchanting system, would spark more uneasiness if said weapon had a red glow.
Overall, every item was needed to be preprocessed to higher tier materials, which ties very well with AoC's design philosophy of completing the whole picture in crafting and economy. Coupling that along with main weapon components (blade pieces, edges, etc) and consumed recipes would be great to see, which this specific part seems to be already be planned to some form or extent?
In L2, materials were more plentiful as it was all tied to PvE drops, which would definitely have to be tweaked for AoC's design direction as resources are more limited. Maybe incorporating these elements in crafting along with procced higher tier mats would work well for the item rarity direction AoC is taking. Which would foster demand and market presence of higher tiered materials, furthering economy. L2 did not have tiered rarity in gear, as that was handled by enchanting to differ the same item among the player base, so the formula would definitely need to be tweaked for Ashes approach of item rarity of the same craft, but would definitely add what the crafting system currently lacks, a bit more depth.
The showcase in itself was good, But seemed too simplistic for a legendary tier craft. Now I understand it was a lower level legendary craft...But If it ends up being a scenario where higher quality wood/fragments are gated behind gathering level, which is processed in the same fashion as the lower level mats of just refining into Mahogany Lumber instead of Oak Lumber for example, coupled along with a higher rarity variant of the zinc shown gated behind gathering levels once more in the open world, would be a true shame. A true lost opportunity to add some depth and complexity that is severely needed in my opinion. No need to make it as hardcore as L2, but at least pulling from some of the elements would give the depth it needs.
Now don't get me wrong, there are no problems with a more casual friendly approach, our time is valuable, but this just seemed a bit too basic and lacked enough substance to make it feel rewarding...not enough effort, for possibly too big of a reward for it being legendary. Especially when tied to the flagging and corruption system of Ashes, which is entirely L2's Karma and flagging system, would make sense to make crafts have a larger sense of worth, hence a bigger risk if lost. Which in turn would defer people from rampantly pk'ing.
Obviously take everything I've said with a grain of salt, as we have very little to go off except what was shown. If these idea's are already in the pipeline, fantastic...But just incase they aren't, believe it should be brought up to shore up a possible blind spot, as well as point out a heavily missed opportunity. Here's a sample image of a Lineage 2 recipe to further along the idea in case no one has experienced a system like it.
Now obviously it would need to be more simplified for Ashes, such as smaller item quantities, less unique specific items, etc...But would give it the depth it needs for crafting.
How do you feel about the full-cycle of Artisanship shown during the November livestream?
What is your impression of the dynamics shown with gathering? (E.g. Nightstone being invisible during the day, and visible at night)
I love the evolving nature of items being available and certain times of the day, season, or server state. Adds a nice level of complexity that will definitely draw value in certain items. I'm just hoping for some more teeth in the processing side, and hopefully larger list of items required in the recipes.
What is your impression of the crafting portion of the livestream? (E.g. Using fragments of various rarities to affect the stats of the item)
Good idea and concept. Once again, haven't played SWG, and not sure if this approach stems from it. But once again hoping for some more depth, as it seemed to simple a craft. In my mind it would bring more worth if a processor is taking a material from one form to another, then another, and so on for high level crafts. Which in turn would increase a processors role and bring value to said materials in the open market, even more so if some processed materials for crafting are proc'able.
For example, you could have a artisan frame be required for a weapon crafts, different types of ore would differentiate it's crafting level, think bronze, iron, steel, etc. A proc'able crafting mat that is required to make said artisan frame, such an "Iron Frame" (substitute metal for level range), and will have an impact on the rarity level once fully crafted by weapon crafter. An "Iron Frame" is processed out of iron ingots by a processor, adding to the material to material transition element a processor is known to do, and they would have a chance of crafting it into a regular, best, good quality standard via proccing, names just examples. When handed to the main crafter, the amount of the higher procced Iron Frames will determine the percentage chance of a higher procced artisan frame that is required for the main weapon craft, and will determine the weapon rarity (epic, heroic, legendary, etc)...Entwining the roles of the processor and crafter more so. This way the processor is more than just a base material creator.
The crafter would take the materials required, recipe, and the artisan frame he has made, and craft said weapon...if he used no higher quality Iron Frames, he'd have a 0 percent chance to go legendary, if he used 5 let's say, which is the max, he would have a 5% chance of going legendary, 30% heroic, 70% chance epic, etc...all determined by the iron frames used, if none were used, it would be common, uncommon, rare, etc...Of course this is just me making shit up, but just an idea that brings entwines both professions more so. But all up to tweaking/testing.
In terms of the opals, could be used as gemstone slots to improve weapon damage. For example when a weapon is crafted, regardless of rarity, there is a chance of being a one, two, or three slot weapon. As such can be slotted with a single or multiple night opals, or scarlet ember, or Gale jade, etc...Which could add dark damage, fire, wind, etc. All of which could be slotted after the weapon is crafted. If you want to take it a step further, can have the crafter used said gems during the construction of the weapon. Which as a result would make the effect slightly stronger compared to the removable/slotable variant of a finished weapon craft. So instead of being three opals that add 4 dark damage each slotted into the weapon, it would be three imbued opals during the craft that add 5 damage each that are not removable. Of course doing so would be more risky, as you are working with RNG in terms of how many slots are made during the weapon cast, and could end up with only two night opals imbued instead of the 3 night opals you committed, and hence lost an entire night opal in the process for 10 damage bump total, instead of the possible 12 with a slotted weapon.
There's obviously many ways to play it, but these are more RNG focused routes. Which I don't think is a bad approach to add more variety and weapon rarity beyond just the simple tiers of uncommon, common, rare, etc.
This would add a very nice amount of complexity to each roll in gathering, to processing, to crafting. You have gatherers who have to hunt and keep an eye out for said materials. With the added complexity of day/night cycles, seasons, server states, surverying. Have processors who have to proc certain main crafting mats, along with base mats for the market needs. Which finally leads up to the final crafters, which would be on the lookout of acquiring recipes for their recipe book, making networks for purchasing materials for crafting, etc...You could trade some responsibilities between the processor and crafter for some of these to accommodate, but I think this would be a much more rewarding and fulfilling crafting experience/system.
The more interplay there is between the gatherer, processor, and crafter roll, the better the economy will flourish, and aims of AoC as a whole have to succeed. Seeing what AoC is aiming for, it's plethora of systems, and heavily leaning on the same PvX philosophy that made L2 so good has me excited as all hell. The more community and players have to rely on other players, the better. That's what will make this game succeed where others over the past two decades have been failing at. The crafting system needs to be injected with this philosophy as much as possible, with a bit of complexity that makes it more rewarding.
Now this would definitely be a song and dance that needs to be tweaked and coordinated to work well in Ashe's system of scarcer resources, but would add more depth and meaning to the system if done so.
-edited
Bang on the money. I just made an account to write that, as a former L2 player myself, you expressed my thoughts way better than I ever could have done myself.
I want more complex manual crafting.
Processor artisans must focus and spend more time on doing their jobs, on multiple stations at once.
Please remove queued automated jobs and simple one stage no brainer recipes.
I personally loved the artisanship preview. I appreciate the depth and care that is going into creating this very robust system.
I find myself curious to know more about how refiners are going to get their experience. Gatherers get it upon successfully gathering the item, crafters get experience upon successfully crafting an item. Where do refiners fit in?
Do they get experience every time someone uses their machines? Does that accrue even when not online? Is there skilled refining I personally have to do at the highest levels? Or is it just that I made the machine?
So many unanswered questions on this specific piece, and I plan to dig into this aspect of the game myself, hence the focus on these questions.
I look forward to seeing what the Intrepid Team comes up with.
I personally loved the artisanship preview. I appreciate the depth and care that is going into creating this very robust system.
I find myself curious to know more about how refiners are going to get their experience. Gatherers get it upon successfully gathering the item, crafters get experience upon successfully crafting an item. Where do refiners fit in?
Do they get experience every time someone uses their machines? Does that accrue even when not online? Is there skilled refining I personally have to do at the highest levels? Or is it just that I made the machine?
So many unanswered questions on this specific piece, and I plan to dig into this aspect of the game myself, hence the focus on these questions.
I look forward to seeing what the Intrepid Team comes up with.
Comments
Not much to say here. Nothing really blew me away, but it all looked good. Solid. I like the darker night. I really like certain gathering materials only being available at night and vice versa. Not sure why more games haven't done this.
That's it. It all looked good.
-loved the look of the broadsword someone was carrying.
-loved the look of the finished crafted sword
-loved the robust nature of the entire system start to finish.
-love that there is three separate and distinct branches of crafting that are all equally necessary.
-love the need to specialize as the journey into crafting deepens.
-love that crafting will always be where the best gear / weapons come from.
-love the idea that some ingredients are only available at night (in winter? When it rains? Etc? What other conditions?)
-I’m undecided about the darkness of the night time. Need to play alpha 2 and will give more feedback then. I really don’t like not being able to see the game world at night, and, I’m hopeful you’ll figure it out!
-don’t love the idea of limited use patterns. The feels unnecessary and my mind can come up with scenarios where that would heartbreaking. Rarity of ingredients and patterns is enough. Bad luck protection on pattern drops.
-id like to better understand how the intended crafting economy will work. As a processor, do I just make money off my machines? Or can a critical success yield extra items for me? As a top level gatherer, can I critical success double my gather, where lower skills can’t do that? As a top level crafter do I just make money off selling crafting, or can I critical success a double-make and I keep one? Or critical success use 8 platinum ingots instead of 10, and I can decided to keep them, sell them, or give them back? Will there be a work order system like WoW where people can send me orders while I’m off line and I fulfill them when I come on? Is there a work order board that I check for more work and cash-on-delivery mail an item back to the person who commissioned it?
I believe strongly you are on the right track.
Thanks for reading!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCP31ixSBO7GHKLBefWVcJaA
Just want to add my 2 cents into it
It would be cool when someone crafts something that the Name of the Crafter is written in the Item Info Panel, for Example: Crafted/Mastercraft/Legendary Crafted by XXXX
At the entire Crafting situation, it would be really cool to implement "mini games" into the crafting from material processing into finishing a product. With this the Player needs to be active when he crafts something.
so some Possible szenarios:
This way of crafting would Create absolute Unique Items
So for me i would afk craft "Food" or "consumables" if you craft these items "afk" without doing minigames, for example:
Food AFK craft: Lower Strength of Food and Lower Duration
Food Active Craft: Higher Strengh of Food and Higher Duration
Mastercraft Active Craft: Food Buff still active even when Dead + Bonus Stats + Bonus Duration
Potions AFK craft: Lower Healing/Mana, Lower restored Amount of Healing/Mana, Lower Duration 15 sec
Potion Active Craft: Higher Healing/Mana, Higher restored Amount of Healing/Mana, Higher Duration up to 20 sec.
Mastercraft Active Craft: Higher Healing/Mana, Higher restored Amount of Healing/Mana, Higher Duration up to 25-30 sec, + Small instant heal at beginning (5% of Max HP), up to 5-10 sec lower cooldown on Potions
Another cool thing would be to use a crafting Potion and add a ingridient into the Potion and craft it
for example:
You have a normal Healing Potion, you add a Ressource into the Potion which removes a debuff = Crafted item is a Healing Potion with Removing 1 debuff.
or:
You have a normal Healing Potion, You add Mana Potion = Crafted Item is a Serum healing and restoring mana at the same time
or:
you have a normal Healing Potion, You add a Ressource (Chilli
Im Sure something like this added to crafting would make Crafting literally Unique, and People would think about it if they wanna "waste" or use their Ressources "wisely".
www.Twitch.tv/ShreddedFPS
www.Twitch.tv/ShreddedFPS
My vision of crafting is as follows :
An autocraft system is good for mundane items which doesn't requires a higher quality result, like components (a sword hilt, an alchemy bottle, leather straps, sheets of paper for books,...).
A manual crafting system is good for more advanced items for which a higher quality result is sought, like mundane finished items (a sword, a healing a potion, a leather armor, a recipe book,...) and definitely for rare or specific items (the legendary fire sword of the hell's king, the elixir of life of the fairy queen of the heart of the oblivion forest,... or even just a regular +1 leather armor chest!).
As said by others, a player willing to spend most of his playing time crafting doesn't want to spend it looking at a NPC planing wooden boards for hours! He wants to plane wooden boards for hours himself! Joke aside, the NTC can plane as much as wooden boards as he wants, but that fu****g wooden house will not be 3D printed!!!
This means that a combat-oriented player which just needs a regular skinning knife in order to rise-up his skinning skill at the same time he is bashing mobs to level up, could just go to what ever shop to buy a what ever skinning knife because the quality of the item isn't important at all (skinning isn't this player main goal).
While a high priest would spend the required time to find the legendary master jeweler which will craft his legendary scepter of infinite life to go along his legendary the grimoire of understanding the subtleties of life in the ethereal planes.
However, I think it would be more accurate to say that a rare or legendary item cannot just be crafted by a legendary crafter, it would require as well a legendary crafting station and maybe legendary crafting tools too.
A legendary crafting station could be a old Titan forge located far underground in the Titans lair. Legendary crafting stations for which you need a group/raid to clean the way down and in order to use it you need a group of crafters to assist the legendary crafter who will make the much desired objects. The rarity of crafted items depends on the rarity of the crafting station used.
Vanguard Saga of heroes and EQ2 had/have a nice way/idea about active crafting. First it involves the player in his carfting session, second it makes it more difficult for bots to craft and third the player is responsible of what he is doing (not responsible about the % failure but responsible for not using the right skill during the process).
Processor artisans must focus and spend more time on doing their jobs, on multiple stations at once.
Please remove queued automated jobs and simple one stage no brainer recipes.
I already have commented on this thread but some things came to mind after the community office hours chat
I have to admit I don't necessarily agree with (full) automation of the processing skill. I don't want a NPC doing all the work for me for most professions, even on lower levels, while I would get the processing XP.
However, even though I personally feel like putting the sweat into mass-processing myself, I also can see that processing 10.000 logs all by hand is not fun either.
There are some processing professions that don't need you to be around at all time, and some do. And some work could indeed be taken over by a NPC
So, here's my suggestion: Split the professions in two by these 2 lists, and have player interacting within the professions like the following:
Non-manual or light manual work needed
Farming
Plant seeds, wait until you get a popup in chat when your plants are ready for harvest. This should take some night-day cycles, the rarer a plant the longer it takes to fully grow. The higher a level, the more points one could spend to decrease that time (though not by too much imho)
Cooking
Insert ingredients into cauldron. Set temperature to a low boil or high boil for different results. Wait until done. Maybe stir every once in a while.
Lumber Milling
Insert x amount of wood into sawmill installation. The higher advanced the node is and your level, the bigger the station you can use, and the more logs a player can process at once. and wait until all your logs have been processed.
Stonemasonry
Same thing, maybe choose a template first for the shape of the stones you want them to be cut in.
Manual
Animal husbandry
After you hunted 2 or more beasts, place them in a fenced of area and feed them, train them in whatever skills you would like them to be trained in. Does not need constant care though, animals could be left alone for a while. But progress needs interaction from the player.
Tanning
Evaluate the hide and trim off edges. Remove the flesh. Soak in water or a bucking solution. Scrape off grain and membrane. Wring out moisture. Apply braining solution. Wring hide. Repeat braining and wringing.
Soften your hide. Smoke to preserve softness.
I just googled how to tan hides, some steps could be thrown out or simplified for gameplay reasons.
Weaving
Choose pattern and wait for a short animation to make the item or the higher your level, the more items you can make at once.
Alchemy
Not sure about this yet
Metalworking
I would like to crush my own ore, however the higher my level and the node equipment, the more I can crush per crushing animation cycle. Also the bigger your furnace, the larger amount of ingots one could make.
Most importantly I think the automation of the processing should evolve by the level of the node. If you start in the wilderness, even for a grandmaster lumbermiller that just lost his metropolis to a siege and has to start anew, the node doesn't have the necessary equipment to automate the process yet.
This is just a rough picture of my idea, but i hope you like it.
Thanks for reading
It feels bad to craft 1 recipe over and over again, and most likely it will only be THAT specific recipe because of the mats to gold ratio. The product probably won't even be sold on the market ...
I'm also not sure about the tetris style inventory system yet. What's wrong with a standard grid inventory? We don't need to re-invent the wheel for everything. Just make the inventory have intuitive tabs and lots of space.
Cleric
A good example is farming. You plant the seed, water it every day or so, harvest it when it's grown and that's it. Cooking is another, add the ingredients over a fire and stir once in a while. The pot starts bubbling or food turns a certain color to indicate its done. Then you can have stuff like woodcutting which requires the player to be more involved, processing logs into planks or whatever the end product is. Having a worker to help you should be unlocked from higher level service buildings and even then they shouldn't be doing everything for you, they should help speed up the process.
Some people don't get that if you make things super easy and convenient to process, the market will be flooded with those products and nothing will be worth anything. But if there's a necessary time and effort investment to create them, that's what will make things have value.
Under this proposed system, only with the appropriate rank in the Union (ie. processing certification tier) would a player get access to the appropriate NPC to handle the player's order. In effect, higher tier-certified players would get access to labor that is more experienced and produces better and higher tier results, and processing timelines.
For immersion purposes, the dialogued laborer's interaction could slowly become more respectful as the player's tier becomes higher.
It would also follow appropriately that better laborers can be found using better tools at upgraded stations and the best laborers can only be found in Freeholds where their talents are truly appreciated (ie. their pay and work-life balance is the highest with access to the best processing equipment).
Options could also exist for the Player to interact directly with the NPC in some way to oversee even better results (to make it less than 100% automated) - but that would require additional dev work whereas limiting it to the change above could easily be implemented via story dialogue.
Personally for the gameplay layer, would like a mini-game mechanic like the classic game, "The awful green things from outer space" In that game you have to try out weapons, and then draw a result at random, for their effect, so every playthrough is different.
The beauty of this is that every node could randomly have a different set of outcomes, catalysts and ingredients. No guides, just trial and error unique for every server, or if you want to any degree, every craftsman, maybe tilted to their archetype, race, religion etc. You could make it really deep with some sort of pattern for ingredients that could also be shuffled by deity or race or both making it difficult, but not impossible to work out.
If you did this then it would require a lot of trial and error, and craftsmen would be tilted to, more often, creating gear for themselves. You could also put in some amusing failures, when craftsmen get the recipe wrong.
The inclusive nature of every character having a role in the economy is a big plus. I love the idea of a breathing and evolving economy with materials tied to system/season states, and the limitations on grand master professions. We've seen MMO's fail horribly with crafting/economy as an afterthought and be meaningless...*cough*NW*cough*. Overall things are looking good from what was shown. Although I do have some concerns, posted below.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Artisanship Preview?
Overall excited to get get in game and give everything a run through in A2. I unfortunately don't have Star Wars Galaxies experience, which seems to be a big inspiration from what has been said and noted by the devs for crafting. Personally I'm a huge advocate for what Lineage 2 brought to the table in crafting, even though the game in whole lacked systems/diversity, it was successful in fostering the type of community play ashes is aiming for, as the game was designed completely around the same PvX philosophy and player cooperation.
From what I saw in the dev update, the amount of materials needed to craft was extremely basic. Just a few pieces of lumber and zinc fragments, along with the required Moonbell and night opal...I'm guessing this is just a showcase example, and won't be real world. But that is by far my biggest concern. I understand that the limited resource nature will have an impact on the amount of materials for crafting/economy. Unlike L2 where mats were gathered by killing mobs, and as such were not as limited behind lengthy spawn timers on material nodes. But I must point out that L2 has been by far the best crafting experience I had seen in an MMO (not being a SWG experiencer). The amount of materials needed to craft, the processing from a low grade material to a higher grade, to an even higher along with the main weapon component fragments plus recipe was honestly damn good. Probably a bit excessive to current MMO Standards, but that can obviously be tweaked and tailored.
Now obviously I'm not sure how high grade crafts will play out in Ashes, as we don't have that information yet, with the craft shown during showcase being early to mid level I would presume? But the amount of materials is my biggest concern, it just seemed too simple material wise, as well as complexity. Coupling that with the news that you can grandmaster two professions, leads me to believe a need for more depth in the crafting system compared to what was shown.
L2 did have flaws, as it was much more limited in scope for crafting participation as it was gated behind dwarven race restriction. Regardless of that, the system did build reputable players known on servers as crafters with their recipe books, fees for services, etc. It offered notoriety for known crafters that sold their services and wares, or leaned more towards a guild/alliance crafting focused. Opening the entire processing and crafting to all players is honestly a nice and appropriate approach. So definitely looking forward to how AoC's more flexible and open approach will roll out. But the more reliance is built for the three to intermingle with each other, as well as the open market, is a plus.
From what was glimpsed in the dev update, I'm hoping for something with a bit more teeth from L2, as the recipe construction of L2 was fantastic. Considering L2 was one of Steven's biggest inspirations which can easily be seen by the plethora of systems developed for AoC, hoping it'll show some signs in the crafting as well.
I loved the idea in L2 taking large amounts of iron ore and processing it to Steel, then Mithril Alloy. Same for Animal Bones, to bone powder, to varnish of purity, to artisan frames, and then craftsman molds. Taking large amounts of base materials, and crafting to fewer needed higher tier mats for higher grade crafts. It had a very well thought out material tree that just felt right. It took a long while to do high grade crafts, but as a result, felt completely earned, and seeing someone with such a weapon was definitely a symbol of power, coupled along with the enchanting system, would spark more uneasiness if said weapon had a red glow.
Overall, every item was needed to be preprocessed to higher tier materials, which ties very well with AoC's design philosophy of completing the whole picture in crafting and economy. Coupling that along with main weapon components (blade pieces, edges, etc) and consumed recipes would be great to see, which this specific part seems to be already be planned to some form or extent?
In L2, materials were more plentiful as it was all tied to PvE drops, which would definitely have to be tweaked for AoC's design direction as resources are more limited. Maybe incorporating these elements in crafting along with procced higher tier mats would work well for the item rarity direction AoC is taking. Which would foster demand and market presence of higher tiered materials, furthering economy. L2 did not have tiered rarity in gear, as that was handled by enchanting to differ the same item among the player base, so the formula would definitely need to be tweaked for Ashes approach of item rarity of the same craft, but would definitely add what the crafting system currently lacks, a bit more depth.
The showcase in itself was good, But seemed too simplistic for a legendary tier craft. Now I understand it was a lower level legendary craft...But If it ends up being a scenario where higher quality wood/fragments are gated behind gathering level, which is processed in the same fashion as the lower level mats of just refining into Mahogany Lumber instead of Oak Lumber for example, coupled along with a higher rarity variant of the zinc shown gated behind gathering levels once more in the open world, would be a true shame. A true lost opportunity to add some depth and complexity that is severely needed in my opinion. No need to make it as hardcore as L2, but at least pulling from some of the elements would give the depth it needs.
Now don't get me wrong, there are no problems with a more casual friendly approach, our time is valuable, but this just seemed a bit too basic and lacked enough substance to make it feel rewarding...not enough effort, for possibly too big of a reward for it being legendary. Especially when tied to the flagging and corruption system of Ashes, which is entirely L2's Karma and flagging system, would make sense to make crafts have a larger sense of worth, hence a bigger risk if lost. Which in turn would defer people from rampantly pk'ing.
Obviously take everything I've said with a grain of salt, as we have very little to go off except what was shown. If these idea's are already in the pipeline, fantastic...But just incase they aren't, believe it should be brought up to shore up a possible blind spot, as well as point out a heavily missed opportunity. Here's a sample image of a Lineage 2 recipe to further along the idea in case no one has experienced a system like it.
Now obviously it would need to be more simplified for Ashes, such as smaller item quantities, less unique specific items, etc...But would give it the depth it needs for crafting.
How do you feel about the full-cycle of Artisanship shown during the November livestream?
What is your impression of the dynamics shown with gathering? (E.g. Nightstone being invisible during the day, and visible at night)
I love the evolving nature of items being available and certain times of the day, season, or server state. Adds a nice level of complexity that will definitely draw value in certain items. I'm just hoping for some more teeth in the processing side, and hopefully larger list of items required in the recipes.
What is your impression of the crafting portion of the livestream? (E.g. Using fragments of various rarities to affect the stats of the item)
Good idea and concept. Once again, haven't played SWG, and not sure if this approach stems from it. But once again hoping for some more depth, as it seemed to simple a craft. In my mind it would bring more worth if a processor is taking a material from one form to another, then another, and so on for high level crafts. Which in turn would increase a processors role and bring value to said materials in the open market, even more so if some processed materials for crafting are proc'able.
For example, you could have a artisan frame be required for a weapon crafts, different types of ore would differentiate it's crafting level, think bronze, iron, steel, etc. A proc'able crafting mat that is required to make said artisan frame, such an "Iron Frame" (substitute metal for level range), and will have an impact on the rarity level once fully crafted by weapon crafter. An "Iron Frame" is processed out of iron ingots by a processor, adding to the material to material transition element a processor is known to do, and they would have a chance of crafting it into a regular, best, good quality standard via proccing, names just examples. When handed to the main crafter, the amount of the higher procced Iron Frames will determine the percentage chance of a higher procced artisan frame that is required for the main weapon craft, and will determine the weapon rarity (epic, heroic, legendary, etc)...Entwining the roles of the processor and crafter more so. This way the processor is more than just a base material creator.
The crafter would take the materials required, recipe, and the artisan frame he has made, and craft said weapon...if he used no higher quality Iron Frames, he'd have a 0 percent chance to go legendary, if he used 5 let's say, which is the max, he would have a 5% chance of going legendary, 30% heroic, 70% chance epic, etc...all determined by the iron frames used, if none were used, it would be common, uncommon, rare, etc...Of course this is just me making shit up, but just an idea that brings entwines both professions more so. But all up to tweaking/testing.
In terms of the opals, could be used as gemstone slots to improve weapon damage. For example when a weapon is crafted, regardless of rarity, there is a chance of being a one, two, or three slot weapon. As such can be slotted with a single or multiple night opals, or scarlet ember, or Gale jade, etc...Which could add dark damage, fire, wind, etc. All of which could be slotted after the weapon is crafted. If you want to take it a step further, can have the crafter used said gems during the construction of the weapon. Which as a result would make the effect slightly stronger compared to the removable/slotable variant of a finished weapon craft. So instead of being three opals that add 4 dark damage each slotted into the weapon, it would be three imbued opals during the craft that add 5 damage each that are not removable. Of course doing so would be more risky, as you are working with RNG in terms of how many slots are made during the weapon cast, and could end up with only two night opals imbued instead of the 3 night opals you committed, and hence lost an entire night opal in the process for 10 damage bump total, instead of the possible 12 with a slotted weapon.
There's obviously many ways to play it, but these are more RNG focused routes. Which I don't think is a bad approach to add more variety and weapon rarity beyond just the simple tiers of uncommon, common, rare, etc.
This would add a very nice amount of complexity to each roll in gathering, to processing, to crafting. You have gatherers who have to hunt and keep an eye out for said materials. With the added complexity of day/night cycles, seasons, server states, surverying. Have processors who have to proc certain main crafting mats, along with base mats for the market needs. Which finally leads up to the final crafters, which would be on the lookout of acquiring recipes for their recipe book, making networks for purchasing materials for crafting, etc...You could trade some responsibilities between the processor and crafter for some of these to accommodate, but I think this would be a much more rewarding and fulfilling crafting experience/system.
The more interplay there is between the gatherer, processor, and crafter roll, the better the economy will flourish, and aims of AoC as a whole have to succeed. Seeing what AoC is aiming for, it's plethora of systems, and heavily leaning on the same PvX philosophy that made L2 so good has me excited as all hell. The more community and players have to rely on other players, the better. That's what will make this game succeed where others over the past two decades have been failing at. The crafting system needs to be injected with this philosophy as much as possible, with a bit of complexity that makes it more rewarding.
Now this would definitely be a song and dance that needs to be tweaked and coordinated to work well in Ashe's system of scarcer resources, but would add more depth and meaning to the system if done so.
-edited
What I loved:
What I liked:
- Processing takes time.
- Quality of subcomponents affects end-quality of item
- Artisanship talent points and the talent tree (would a Grand Master have them all or have to be selective?)
- Gathering visuals (it's remarkably similar to New World, but, it's very satisfying)
Minor Concerns:Major Concerns:
My two cents on rare recipes. They need to be progressively more rare. It should be a big deal for a grandmaster on the server to get a hold of a BOP recipe with 10 charges of some great item. Or a big deal for someone to come across a BOE world drop that could sell for a very high price. I always loved logging in to hear a friend say, "Hey, someone in our sister guild found the recipe for a katana I think you'd want." That's the good stuff. This not only creates exceptional excitement for those that get them, but it also creates that dopamine hit for all of us thinking, "this could be the mob/node where I get lucky". I plead with the developers not to water-down a beautifully crafted system by handing out the best recipes like candy.
Regarding mid-tier subcomponents, I imagine crafters will use the most common (easy to get) components to craft low-quality items for XP points. Conversely, they will always use the rarest (hard to get) components to craft high-quality items for use/sale. Several months after launch, how will demand for mid-tier resources be driven?
In closing, I have a few ideas for what I'd like to see added but I'm very sensitive to scope creep. I think what was shown in the video is well on its way to be a great system at launch and I look forward to hearing about the iterative refinement.
Thank you.
100% agree
- I still think the UI needs work
- there did not appear to be a consistent style or theme across the different interfaces
- the scale of text appears legible on large screen, concern it may not scale and be legible for smaller screens
- the X (close) button was small
- viewing of items appeared small and nondescript
I hope it's not too frustrating to deal with.
Also a nice idea would be to allow players to have replacement tools in their backpack ready to replace the broken ones while they are out in the world gathering.
I love the ideas you are working with, I have a suggestion in regards to chopping down trees: as a woodworker that I am and have cut down trees, even a chainsaw does not get a perfectly straight line like a laser has zipped it off.
In terms of a subtle change that would give it a little more to it, would be to make the axe cut have a jagged edge or a splintering effect as it inevitably "snaps and breaks" when it falls over.
- When cutting have you thought about adding in splinters or chunks of wood coming out as you are cutting?
- Your physics for the stones breaking when mined is beautiful, have you thought about adding in sparks or small chunks of rock/gem/dirt/dust chipping out with each hit?
1. it might be nice if you choose all your professions in 1 field, that you can grandmaster 3 instead of 2.
2. the gathering tree seems a little empty compared to the other 2. maybe you can add seeds/herbs/plants as gatherables
greets, raymond.
Bang on the money. I just made an account to write that, as a former L2 player myself, you expressed my thoughts way better than I ever could have done myself.
Example of complex manual crafting
https://onetech.info/4906-Riding-Horse-with-Detached-Tire-Cart/tech-tree
https://onetech.info/2698-Running-Crude-Airplane-fly
I find myself curious to know more about how refiners are going to get their experience. Gatherers get it upon successfully gathering the item, crafters get experience upon successfully crafting an item. Where do refiners fit in?
Do they get experience every time someone uses their machines? Does that accrue even when not online? Is there skilled refining I personally have to do at the highest levels? Or is it just that I made the machine?
So many unanswered questions on this specific piece, and I plan to dig into this aspect of the game myself, hence the focus on these questions.
I look forward to seeing what the Intrepid Team comes up with.
Looking really good so far!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCP31ixSBO7GHKLBefWVcJaA
I find myself curious to know more about how refiners are going to get their experience. Gatherers get it upon successfully gathering the item, crafters get experience upon successfully crafting an item. Where do refiners fit in?
Do they get experience every time someone uses their machines? Does that accrue even when not online? Is there skilled refining I personally have to do at the highest levels? Or is it just that I made the machine?
So many unanswered questions on this specific piece, and I plan to dig into this aspect of the game myself, hence the focus on these questions.
I look forward to seeing what the Intrepid Team comes up with.
Looking really good so far!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCP31ixSBO7GHKLBefWVcJaA