Vaknar wrote: » Looks like opinions are varied on this subject! Feedback like this is always helpful for the team, so if you're stopping by this thread, we'd love to see you give your thoughts on what you prefer for health + mana regeneration!
Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Not after every single fight, but there, for sure, should be a point where you need to stop and recover. The choice comes in how far you can push it before you are overwhelmed. Having that span over two or three engagements would be preferable. However, having mana and health fill up after every ecounter makes all mobs feel boring and pointless. Some hassle and inconvenience is a good thing. It means there are actually things you can't do. Modern MMOs get that wrong, not right. I understand about pacing and sometimes things can be taken away off or make some threats feel reduced if you heal instantly. Though no one is really advocating for that. Though lets say you do heal instantly for the sake of this following point, it shouldn't really has nothing to do with mobs feeling boring or pointless unless the mobs functions are limited to chase and attack. What should make things not feel boring is the skill set mobs can do to make each encounter fun. Those encounters should be based off players being at full with all cds and not based off players being at half their resources generally. Controlling what you use in combat is one thing, doesn't mean you need to be afk for 30 seconds every few min though. Recovery should be 50% faster and I feel that would be a great state. CDs should be what is important to managing which stops inbetween breaks (resting) from being tied down to a singular spot and unable to move. We may be advocating for the same thing. If I'm fighting and I use everthing I have, I will exit the fight ready to take on the next (in reguards to health and mana) but will have consumed valuable CDs. If I tone it down a bit, I'll have to "spend" more in terms of both mana and health to avoid consuming cooldowns, so it's a balancing act. Either way there reaches a point where I need to stop to recover what I "spent". That's a good thing, navigating the world becomes engaging. After traversing or clearing an area, I have a sence of accomplishment. Without a point where I'm overextended (besides just pulling too many mobs), I lose that and everything feels stale after a while. This also helps promote coordination and engagement between group members since they have to manage these costs together in order to get where they want to go. On the side, it also promotes a healthy economy for consumables. Getting prepared for an excursion actually become something meaningful. My issue really coms down to people thinking after a few fights you need to rest and that rest time being extensive and becoming tedious. Based on the content to you there will be differences in the amount of hp / mana loss. It is dead end content to be doing nothing, it doesn't need to be extended for no reason. Unless there is content that is roaming and hunting you directly with that kind of difficulty being kept in mind. So if I'm understanding your perspective correctly, you think that down time should exist. You just worry that it will be taken too far. If that is the case, then we are on the same page.What I am considering good would be something like this: 1 - I arrive in an area with a lot of spread out mobs that are around my lvl 2 - I engage a couple of them, since I think i can handle them alone. 3 - After defeating both of them, I'm about half health and half mana 4 - I still have all my more powerful cooldowns left so I take on another 2. 5 - about halfway through, another 2 mobs surprise me and wander in 6 - I'm surviving but I need to start using some of my long cooldowns 7 - Eventually I manage to take them out, but by now all my major cooldowns are gone, I've used a number of consumables and my mana and health are nearly gone. 8 - It's going to take time to recover my health and mana and it's a bit dangerous to re-engage until some of my abilities come back online so I go off to the side, and for 10 to 15 seconds I recover and get ready to go back in. As long as I'm taking on a reasonable number of mobs at a reasonable pace, I'm good, the game will allow me to continue. But the moment I take on too much, or don't pay attention, I am forced to eventually stop. In this way my reward for managing agro and paying attention (not to mention learning the best way to defeat specific enemies) is continued gameplay. My punishment for taking on too much or not knowing my enemies is to be forced to stop playing and recover. This is an example of an area where it's safe to solo. Obviously in a group centered area the mobs may have this effect on the whole group. Its not a perfect example, but this is the sort of loop I'd like to see. what if you already know how many mobs you can take at a time, and you can manage aggro perfectly so you never have to fight more than what you can take. should you be able to keep fighting mobs one by one indefinitely or maybe after 5 mins should you need to sit down for a min or two to recover even if you havent overpulled or used any cooldowns?
Diamaht wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Not after every single fight, but there, for sure, should be a point where you need to stop and recover. The choice comes in how far you can push it before you are overwhelmed. Having that span over two or three engagements would be preferable. However, having mana and health fill up after every ecounter makes all mobs feel boring and pointless. Some hassle and inconvenience is a good thing. It means there are actually things you can't do. Modern MMOs get that wrong, not right. I understand about pacing and sometimes things can be taken away off or make some threats feel reduced if you heal instantly. Though no one is really advocating for that. Though lets say you do heal instantly for the sake of this following point, it shouldn't really has nothing to do with mobs feeling boring or pointless unless the mobs functions are limited to chase and attack. What should make things not feel boring is the skill set mobs can do to make each encounter fun. Those encounters should be based off players being at full with all cds and not based off players being at half their resources generally. Controlling what you use in combat is one thing, doesn't mean you need to be afk for 30 seconds every few min though. Recovery should be 50% faster and I feel that would be a great state. CDs should be what is important to managing which stops inbetween breaks (resting) from being tied down to a singular spot and unable to move. We may be advocating for the same thing. If I'm fighting and I use everthing I have, I will exit the fight ready to take on the next (in reguards to health and mana) but will have consumed valuable CDs. If I tone it down a bit, I'll have to "spend" more in terms of both mana and health to avoid consuming cooldowns, so it's a balancing act. Either way there reaches a point where I need to stop to recover what I "spent". That's a good thing, navigating the world becomes engaging. After traversing or clearing an area, I have a sence of accomplishment. Without a point where I'm overextended (besides just pulling too many mobs), I lose that and everything feels stale after a while. This also helps promote coordination and engagement between group members since they have to manage these costs together in order to get where they want to go. On the side, it also promotes a healthy economy for consumables. Getting prepared for an excursion actually become something meaningful. My issue really coms down to people thinking after a few fights you need to rest and that rest time being extensive and becoming tedious. Based on the content to you there will be differences in the amount of hp / mana loss. It is dead end content to be doing nothing, it doesn't need to be extended for no reason. Unless there is content that is roaming and hunting you directly with that kind of difficulty being kept in mind. So if I'm understanding your perspective correctly, you think that down time should exist. You just worry that it will be taken too far. If that is the case, then we are on the same page.What I am considering good would be something like this: 1 - I arrive in an area with a lot of spread out mobs that are around my lvl 2 - I engage a couple of them, since I think i can handle them alone. 3 - After defeating both of them, I'm about half health and half mana 4 - I still have all my more powerful cooldowns left so I take on another 2. 5 - about halfway through, another 2 mobs surprise me and wander in 6 - I'm surviving but I need to start using some of my long cooldowns 7 - Eventually I manage to take them out, but by now all my major cooldowns are gone, I've used a number of consumables and my mana and health are nearly gone. 8 - It's going to take time to recover my health and mana and it's a bit dangerous to re-engage until some of my abilities come back online so I go off to the side, and for 10 to 15 seconds I recover and get ready to go back in. As long as I'm taking on a reasonable number of mobs at a reasonable pace, I'm good, the game will allow me to continue. But the moment I take on too much, or don't pay attention, I am forced to eventually stop. In this way my reward for managing agro and paying attention (not to mention learning the best way to defeat specific enemies) is continued gameplay. My punishment for taking on too much or not knowing my enemies is to be forced to stop playing and recover. This is an example of an area where it's safe to solo. Obviously in a group centered area the mobs may have this effect on the whole group. Its not a perfect example, but this is the sort of loop I'd like to see.
Mag7spy wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Not after every single fight, but there, for sure, should be a point where you need to stop and recover. The choice comes in how far you can push it before you are overwhelmed. Having that span over two or three engagements would be preferable. However, having mana and health fill up after every ecounter makes all mobs feel boring and pointless. Some hassle and inconvenience is a good thing. It means there are actually things you can't do. Modern MMOs get that wrong, not right. I understand about pacing and sometimes things can be taken away off or make some threats feel reduced if you heal instantly. Though no one is really advocating for that. Though lets say you do heal instantly for the sake of this following point, it shouldn't really has nothing to do with mobs feeling boring or pointless unless the mobs functions are limited to chase and attack. What should make things not feel boring is the skill set mobs can do to make each encounter fun. Those encounters should be based off players being at full with all cds and not based off players being at half their resources generally. Controlling what you use in combat is one thing, doesn't mean you need to be afk for 30 seconds every few min though. Recovery should be 50% faster and I feel that would be a great state. CDs should be what is important to managing which stops inbetween breaks (resting) from being tied down to a singular spot and unable to move. We may be advocating for the same thing. If I'm fighting and I use everthing I have, I will exit the fight ready to take on the next (in reguards to health and mana) but will have consumed valuable CDs. If I tone it down a bit, I'll have to "spend" more in terms of both mana and health to avoid consuming cooldowns, so it's a balancing act. Either way there reaches a point where I need to stop to recover what I "spent". That's a good thing, navigating the world becomes engaging. After traversing or clearing an area, I have a sence of accomplishment. Without a point where I'm overextended (besides just pulling too many mobs), I lose that and everything feels stale after a while. This also helps promote coordination and engagement between group members since they have to manage these costs together in order to get where they want to go. On the side, it also promotes a healthy economy for consumables. Getting prepared for an excursion actually become something meaningful. My issue really coms down to people thinking after a few fights you need to rest and that rest time being extensive and becoming tedious. Based on the content to you there will be differences in the amount of hp / mana loss. It is dead end content to be doing nothing, it doesn't need to be extended for no reason. Unless there is content that is roaming and hunting you directly with that kind of difficulty being kept in mind.
Diamaht wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Not after every single fight, but there, for sure, should be a point where you need to stop and recover. The choice comes in how far you can push it before you are overwhelmed. Having that span over two or three engagements would be preferable. However, having mana and health fill up after every ecounter makes all mobs feel boring and pointless. Some hassle and inconvenience is a good thing. It means there are actually things you can't do. Modern MMOs get that wrong, not right. I understand about pacing and sometimes things can be taken away off or make some threats feel reduced if you heal instantly. Though no one is really advocating for that. Though lets say you do heal instantly for the sake of this following point, it shouldn't really has nothing to do with mobs feeling boring or pointless unless the mobs functions are limited to chase and attack. What should make things not feel boring is the skill set mobs can do to make each encounter fun. Those encounters should be based off players being at full with all cds and not based off players being at half their resources generally. Controlling what you use in combat is one thing, doesn't mean you need to be afk for 30 seconds every few min though. Recovery should be 50% faster and I feel that would be a great state. CDs should be what is important to managing which stops inbetween breaks (resting) from being tied down to a singular spot and unable to move. We may be advocating for the same thing. If I'm fighting and I use everthing I have, I will exit the fight ready to take on the next (in reguards to health and mana) but will have consumed valuable CDs. If I tone it down a bit, I'll have to "spend" more in terms of both mana and health to avoid consuming cooldowns, so it's a balancing act. Either way there reaches a point where I need to stop to recover what I "spent". That's a good thing, navigating the world becomes engaging. After traversing or clearing an area, I have a sence of accomplishment. Without a point where I'm overextended (besides just pulling too many mobs), I lose that and everything feels stale after a while. This also helps promote coordination and engagement between group members since they have to manage these costs together in order to get where they want to go. On the side, it also promotes a healthy economy for consumables. Getting prepared for an excursion actually become something meaningful.
Mag7spy wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Not after every single fight, but there, for sure, should be a point where you need to stop and recover. The choice comes in how far you can push it before you are overwhelmed. Having that span over two or three engagements would be preferable. However, having mana and health fill up after every ecounter makes all mobs feel boring and pointless. Some hassle and inconvenience is a good thing. It means there are actually things you can't do. Modern MMOs get that wrong, not right. I understand about pacing and sometimes things can be taken away off or make some threats feel reduced if you heal instantly. Though no one is really advocating for that. Though lets say you do heal instantly for the sake of this following point, it shouldn't really has nothing to do with mobs feeling boring or pointless unless the mobs functions are limited to chase and attack. What should make things not feel boring is the skill set mobs can do to make each encounter fun. Those encounters should be based off players being at full with all cds and not based off players being at half their resources generally. Controlling what you use in combat is one thing, doesn't mean you need to be afk for 30 seconds every few min though. Recovery should be 50% faster and I feel that would be a great state. CDs should be what is important to managing which stops inbetween breaks (resting) from being tied down to a singular spot and unable to move.
Diamaht wrote: » Not after every single fight, but there, for sure, should be a point where you need to stop and recover. The choice comes in how far you can push it before you are overwhelmed. Having that span over two or three engagements would be preferable. However, having mana and health fill up after every ecounter makes all mobs feel boring and pointless. Some hassle and inconvenience is a good thing. It means there are actually things you can't do. Modern MMOs get that wrong, not right.
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Unsure what you are trying to get at here if people are fighting mobs people are more likely to attack them? That doesn't erase the point of if you aren't moving you are a easy target and it tells a group you are low on resources so it is a easy pk still? Both the same result when the player dies. This question doesn't really matter because if you plan to pk someone you will pick whatever situation is the best for you based on how the game works. It makes no difference if you rest more often or not so that line of thought doesn't really work. If ganking you when you are fighting mobs is the best way to get loot, I just wait till your next pull??? So resting or not doesn't change anything for the ganker. The entire point is to avoid PKing. Mobs allow you to do that. If both groups are just standing around not touching each other or the mobs - they're both wasting time, and one group would have to cave in first and either flag up first or start farming mobs first. The decision making required is what I find thrilling. Mag7spy wrote: » Also can you quote me where i said players can farm mobs non-stop, you are exaggerating my points. I said you don't need to be afk 30 seconds every few pulls, as that time is ridiculous and having your resting time get a 50% buff would be in the right spot. And I didn't say that we gotta sit for minutes on end. I expect different archetypes to have different regen values, which means that a full group would have to wait for the slowest regener or, if we have mana restoration abilities - the mana support will have to re-up everyone. And this kinda ties back to what Depraved said, where a support might be still sitting and regening even if the group is in combat. 30s would probably be the upper limit of mana regen time for me, and this would probably be either on the tank or on the fighter. Mag7spy wrote: » As well as the mob difficulty should be what increases the duration of fight (im not just talking about sponge heavy mobs). And if that fight is long or if you can do several semi-hard pulls per mana pool - that means that you'd only sit for 30s once every 6-10 minutes. Mag7spy wrote: » Again your idea of PvX and my idea seem quite far apart. You are trying to say its thrilling because as you were resting a group went head of you and now you can gank them? This doesn't really say much to me in terms of content or anything interesting. Its just normal pvp where you can win a fight because they are weakened with limited resources Its really nothing special to write home about.... Now if both groups know they were farming a dungeon with expectation of fighting each other that is a much better vibe. There would be ways to take that to a much higher level but that would get into another conversation. Yes, to me, PvX can only happen when both players and mobs are involved. Everything else is either pve or pvp. So if the pve is hardcore, it means that getting attacked by players while you're pveing is risky as hell. And anything I say is always in the context of pvx, unless stated otherwise, so imo anyone who goes into a dungeon should expect pvx by default, so the last part of this quote wouldn't have more complexity than what I said, because that consideration is the literal base lvl of understanding in a pvx game. Mag7spy wrote: » Also unsure how you get to say i want a more pve friendly game when the whole point is so both groups have a more competitive edge against each other in pvp. Again this feels like it comes down to what you feel is thrilling "PvX" content skewing your opinion. Personally as a pvper i don't find it thrilling i see it as a perfect way to take advantage and win a fight easily without a issue. I don't want teams pools to be so small that they feel a issue from a gank, I want people to be able to fight and not feel like they are in crutches. Which is precisely my point. You're a pvper, while I'm a pvxer. You want to just pvp with some mobs as a backdrop, I want to pvx with both hardcore mobs and hardcore players. And I want the game to be designed in a way where that is not only possible, but is also the optimal way to play. And I've been saying this in pretty much every pve/pvx discussion. Mag7spy wrote: » As much it can benefit me to gank, when you get ganked its easily rough against you and its better to have more of a fair shot before you die, or to be able to do something atleast and not be half drained from one pull and needing to be vulnerable sitting down constantly on top of it. Both situations someone will happily gank players. To me THIS is what a korean mmo sounds like. This sounds like L2 or BDO or some other stuff from the east. I want a better game than this, where pve is still challenging on its own, but players have the tools to not immediately die if that challenging pve becomes hardcore pvx. Mag7spy wrote: » As i said in my examples on increasing rates, if the issue is really 15 seconds of extra rest time, you have mobs spawn 15-30 seconds faster.....no extended rest time needed, why is that so hard to understand? I already explained what I think would happen if mobs spawned faster. And also to clarify, I'm fine with faster spawns in easy solo locations because I'd expect those mobs to barely have any valuable loot, so having more content for solo players to train their gameplay on is good. But as soon as you go to farm something more valuable - it should be hard and it should have a respawn timer appropriate to the regen values of those who'll supposedly be farming it (which is why I said that balancing this ratio well is very difficult).
Mag7spy wrote: » Unsure what you are trying to get at here if people are fighting mobs people are more likely to attack them? That doesn't erase the point of if you aren't moving you are a easy target and it tells a group you are low on resources so it is a easy pk still? Both the same result when the player dies. This question doesn't really matter because if you plan to pk someone you will pick whatever situation is the best for you based on how the game works. It makes no difference if you rest more often or not so that line of thought doesn't really work. If ganking you when you are fighting mobs is the best way to get loot, I just wait till your next pull??? So resting or not doesn't change anything for the ganker.
Mag7spy wrote: » Also can you quote me where i said players can farm mobs non-stop, you are exaggerating my points. I said you don't need to be afk 30 seconds every few pulls, as that time is ridiculous and having your resting time get a 50% buff would be in the right spot.
Mag7spy wrote: » As well as the mob difficulty should be what increases the duration of fight (im not just talking about sponge heavy mobs).
Mag7spy wrote: » Again your idea of PvX and my idea seem quite far apart. You are trying to say its thrilling because as you were resting a group went head of you and now you can gank them? This doesn't really say much to me in terms of content or anything interesting. Its just normal pvp where you can win a fight because they are weakened with limited resources Its really nothing special to write home about.... Now if both groups know they were farming a dungeon with expectation of fighting each other that is a much better vibe. There would be ways to take that to a much higher level but that would get into another conversation.
Mag7spy wrote: » Also unsure how you get to say i want a more pve friendly game when the whole point is so both groups have a more competitive edge against each other in pvp. Again this feels like it comes down to what you feel is thrilling "PvX" content skewing your opinion. Personally as a pvper i don't find it thrilling i see it as a perfect way to take advantage and win a fight easily without a issue. I don't want teams pools to be so small that they feel a issue from a gank, I want people to be able to fight and not feel like they are in crutches.
Mag7spy wrote: » As much it can benefit me to gank, when you get ganked its easily rough against you and its better to have more of a fair shot before you die, or to be able to do something atleast and not be half drained from one pull and needing to be vulnerable sitting down constantly on top of it. Both situations someone will happily gank players.
Mag7spy wrote: » As i said in my examples on increasing rates, if the issue is really 15 seconds of extra rest time, you have mobs spawn 15-30 seconds faster.....no extended rest time needed, why is that so hard to understand?
Mag7spy wrote: » Ganking is not the pinnacle of what PvX gameplay can do.
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Ganking is not the pinnacle of what PvX gameplay can do. Seems kinda funny saying that, but the more you write the more it feels like the game just won't be for you The entire point of having majority of content in the open world (with owpvp) is that you can be attacked while clearing said content. Steven's entire spiel of "there's no reward w/o risk" means exactly that most of the time. If you want to have pvp separated from pve, you will not enjoy majority of the game's pve, because it won't just be pve and pvp separate - it's gonna be pvx. I guess BDO truly never had proper owpvp, cause it definitely seems that you've never played a game with that feature. Or, at the very least, it seems strange for you to like and keep following Ashes if you have in fact played a game like that and disliked it for that exact feature. As for having a design that's worth to be called pvx, I already talked about it before. Players should have tools to utilize mobs to their own advantage in case a pvp fight starts during pve. Redirection of aggro, repositioning of mobs, retargeting of mobs, controlled enrage triggers, pacifying tools, redirection of dmg onto another player - all of these can be used in a pvx situation and, in a way, make the situation itself pvx, because there's no separation of mobs and players. I want a better game than what we've seen before and what you seem to be basing your assumption on.
Mag7spy wrote: » I think you might be misreading AoC intention as they mentioned there is going to be objectives for players for guild wars.
Mag7spy wrote: » But hey if you need PvX to be mainly about ganking (with heavy advantage) and having the gameplay dumbed down to each is their own. I'll be supporting elements that can actually push it forward with more complex objective designs and proper fights.
Mag7spy wrote: » Are you purposely not trying to understand what I'm saying??
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I think you might be misreading AoC intention as they mentioned there is going to be objectives for players for guild wars. And yet for some reason in both node and guild wars we can attack each other w/o any restrictions for as long as the war is on, and not just during prime-time. Funny how that is. Mag7spy wrote: » But hey if you need PvX to be mainly about ganking (with heavy advantage) and having the gameplay dumbed down to each is their own. I'll be supporting elements that can actually push it forward with more complex objective designs and proper fights. Mag7spy wrote: » Are you purposely not trying to understand what I'm saying??
Mag7spy wrote: » Your idea of PvX doesn't seem to match what they are going for because you are seeking the lowest level of PvX in terms of saying it needs to happen at the same time in the way of ganking.
Mag7spy wrote: » An objective + the difficulty of the mobs besides being just sponges or attack bots change that flow of combat. That flow needs players to have resources in their pool based on those types of fights lasting a lot longer. This will shift towards PvP if your pools are running low from killing a few mobs as you will have no choice but to use resources against players as you have nothing to spare. This is why making sure things are FAIR is important as it helps increase PvP + PvE giving players more options.
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Your idea of PvX doesn't seem to match what they are going for because you are seeking the lowest level of PvX in terms of saying it needs to happen at the same time in the way of ganking. You're free to tell Steven that he has no damn clue what kind of game he's making and that his "risk = reward" is complete bullshit, because no one's meant to fight each other when there's a mob around. Mag7spy wrote: » An objective + the difficulty of the mobs besides being just sponges or attack bots change that flow of combat. That flow needs players to have resources in their pool based on those types of fights lasting a lot longer. This will shift towards PvP if your pools are running low from killing a few mobs as you will have no choice but to use resources against players as you have nothing to spare. This is why making sure things are FAIR is important as it helps increase PvP + PvE giving players more options. And now just imagine a game where those og farmers have the tools to turn their limited resources into a proper threat, by simply redirecting the mob onto the attackers. And now it's the ever-so-spooky gankers that are at a disadvantage, because they're not only flagged (which means CCs from the victims), but now also have to deal with a strong mob that's gonna make them hurt if they don't play well enough.
TheDarkSorcerer wrote: » I just watched the livestream over the weekend. I have mixed feelings about it. If it was a little bit faster I would be fine with it. But it does feel like a punishment of some sort. But if I will be able to spend points in faster mana regen, then maybe I would be fine with it. We'll see in Q3.
