My PvX != Your PvX

chibibree · March 19

Basis: I prefer PvE over PvP so, in my mind, I'd like to see more balance between the systems.

Is this a fantasy, yes. I know logically that PvX for Ashes consists of a blend, a mixture if you will, of both elements. Therefore, I think that when some of us say "Ashes isn't really PvX", what we mean is that it isn't what we would think PvX would be (Equal measure of both in my opinion).

Do I want PvE only servers? No. I enjoy the risks that come with the PvP Systems in mind. Will I need a group of friends to play with because (even though I'm complimented for living in the Caravan stream) I'm a big scaredy cat when it comes to PvP? Absolutely!

All in all, I'm just trying to say that I think PvX can be considered more of a spectrum where some of us like the (in my opinion) PvP heavy version of PvX and I'm sure there are some that prefer a more PvE heavy version of PvX.

I plan to play Ashes all the same, but I had seen this topic floating around and wanted to discuss it, or share my thoughts.

Beauchee · March 19

I understand the desire for a balance between PvE and PvP systems in Ashes of Creation. While PvX offers a blend of both, some may lean towards PvE-centric gameplay. It's about finding your comfort level within the spectrum. Personally, I enjoy the risks PvP brings but prefer PvE overall. It's worth noting that PvP encounters or risks can often be avoided or mitigated, allowing PvE-focused players to still thrive in the world of Verra. Let's embrace the diverse preferences within the community and enjoy the game together; see you on the battlefield.

PS: If we happen to play on the same server, count on me to assist you and Virtek in securing that household or tavern land plot.

TheHiddenDaggerInn · March 19

I'm more of a PvP player, but I understand the PvE perspective and I want them to be able to find the game very enjoyable as well. PvE and PvP if done right, as I believe Steven is doing should and will be able to co exist. And I can't wait ... LET ME IN Steven!

BeOwningU · March 19

Interesting thoughts on the extremes on both sides of PvP centric and anti-PvP. If I were to avoid PvP as much as possible without sacrificing progression or economy, I think my initial go to would be gathering materials for income with a focus on mastering processing or selling the materials for mastering crafting. I would most likely focus rush real estate to maximize safe as possible income inside the node as well for a solid initial investment boost.

If traditional herb/rock gathering was too contentious or competitive I may focus trees and explore ship building possibilities.

If all this is still too steeped in PvP for my liking I would run for mayor as a last ditch effort lol.

The most PvP heavy concepts I can think of now besides a Zerg guild would be militaristic node into bounty hunting and or caravan sieges while having a heavy focus on combat progression. Identify the highest paying materials on market and use my corruption cooldowns to actively farm those gatherers in those areas for quick payouts if I can identify common path routes common along side progression content like commissions.

SnowElf · March 19

I'm very interested to see how PVP is going to play out in Ashes of Creation. I do think it was a nice addition in World of Warcraft when they added the option to toggle PVP on or off for each individual person, but I also do think that it's not a bad idea to make it where players automatically get flagged for PVP when they step into certain parts of a zone or participate in certain events on the map.

Fantmx · March 19

I agree we all tolerate different levels of PvE or PvP and so we have different visions of what this means. On one extreme some players say this is not a PvP game and others say it is not a PvE game.

Everyone has a different comfortability with varying levels of risk which will influence pleasure or anxiety. The question I an eager to see answer during alpha, beta and release, is what balance of each type of person does Ashes need to succeed long term.

Nerror · March 19

From the talks on your nice streams, it's quite obvious the perceptions of where the PvP/PvE balance of the different Ashes systems lie vary wildly.

So yes, PvX is a spectrum, but the individual perception range of it is a MUCH wider spectrum than the actual PvE/PvP balance if you look at cold, hard data like time spent against the environment and time spent actually fighting another player in a given game session or gameplay loop.

Consider a dungeon run. You've spent almost an hour getting into a good spot, maybe taken down one boss and working on the next. Along comes another group and kills your group in 3 minutes. That's a PvX experience of 95% PvE and 5% PvP, so waaay on the PvE side of things. But I know several people who won't feel that way. They'll feel the PvP side of things weighs much heavier than the 5% it actually was. And that's fine, I understand that. It just makes it difficult to quantify when discussing it

Endowed · March 19

@Nerror

Will there be PvP settings where the rest of the world cant just jump in and screw with it (even randomly/spur of the moment) at any given moment?
Like sieges? Battlegrounds?

Will there be PvE settings where the rest if the world just cant jump in and screw with it?
Like raids and dungeons and farming areas?

Now looking at that - do players get any reward whatsoever (items, money, leaderboards, standings, mounts, outfits, titles) from the sterilized/instanced pvp settings? If so, PvE and all its aspects need the same... if its actually PvX.

As such, its mostly a PvP dominant game. Very cool with me. Stating "PvX" tho is a marketing ploy.

Fantmx · March 19

Nerror wrote: »

From the talks on your nice streams, it's quite obvious the perceptions of where the PvP/PvE balance of the different Ashes systems lie vary wildly.

So yes, PvX is a spectrum, but the individual perception range of it is a MUCH wider spectrum than the actual PvE/PvP balance if you look at cold, hard data like time spent against the environment and time spent actually fighting another player in a given game session or gameplay loop.

Consider a dungeon run. You've spent almost an hour getting into a good spot, maybe taken down one boss and working on the next. Along comes another group and kills your group in 3 minutes. That's a PvX experience of 95% PvE and 5% PvP, so waaay on the PvE side of things. But I know several people who won't feel that way. They'll feel the PvP side of things weighs much heavier than the 5% it actually was. And that's fine, I understand that. It just makes it difficult to quantify when discussing it

We most definitely do. Dygz on one end, Neuro the other, and me in the middle. I don't think it as simple as saying you spent 90% of your time getting somewhere and 10% getting killed by another group means it is a 90/10 balance. That is one way to look at it. But I don't think it means very much to most players.

chibibree · March 19

Beauchee wrote: »

I understand the desire for a balance between PvE and PvP systems in Ashes of Creation. While PvX offers a blend of both, some may lean towards PvE-centric gameplay. It's about finding your comfort level within the spectrum. Personally, I enjoy the risks PvP brings but prefer PvE overall. It's worth noting that PvP encounters or risks can often be avoided or mitigated, allowing PvE-focused players to still thrive in the world of Verra. Let's embrace the diverse preferences within the community and enjoy the game together; see you on the battlefield.

PS: If we happen to play on the same server, count on me to assist you and Virtek in securing that household or tavern land plot.

I agree! Lots of unique perceptions when it comes to these things. I also prefer PvE.

Also, heck yeah! The Golden Feather Tavern will be up and running in no time!

chibibree · March 19

BeOwningU wrote: »

Interesting thoughts on the extremes on both sides of PvP centric and anti-PvP. If I were to avoid PvP as much as possible without sacrificing progression or economy, I think my initial go to would be gathering materials for income with a focus on mastering processing or selling the materials for mastering crafting. I would most likely focus rush real estate to maximize safe as possible income inside the node as well for a solid initial investment boost.

If traditional herb/rock gathering was too contentious or competitive I may focus trees and explore ship building possibilities.

If all this is still too steeped in PvP for my liking I would run for mayor as a last ditch effort lol.

The most PvP heavy concepts I can think of now besides a Zerg guild would be militaristic node into bounty hunting and or caravan sieges while having a heavy focus on combat progression. Identify the highest paying materials on market and use my corruption cooldowns to actively farm those gatherers in those areas for quick payouts if I can identify common path routes common along side progression content like commissions.

I actually made an image for where things stand in my mind:

Nerror · March 19

@Endowed

PvX is about the interdependency of PvE and PvP and the artisan skills, etc.

Sieges will likely be instanced in some way. Magic firewall, teleporting non-participants out, something. But sieges will likely have guards, so they won't be purely PvP events and preparing for sieges will likely be very PvE heavy. During the siege event it's mostly PvP hopefully, but not 100% because of the guards. Sieges still fall under the PvX umbrella.

Same goes for the caravans, except I suspect most caravan runs will be 100% PvE with phat bonuses for the driver.

I think only arenas are purely PvP, where no monsters can interrupt, and the only pure PvE without anyone else to disrupt is likely inside instanced story dungeons/areas (and whatever you can do inside your house). Both gameplay loops give rewards.

Everything else is a potential mix (aka potentially PvX) where you can interact both with players and the environment in some sort of adversarial way. They shouldn't be separated, because that's the whole point of the game. Calling it PvX is not a marketing ploy, it's a specific playstyle and way of looking at the game.

Unless Ashes becomes a game where you spend over 50% of the game session actively fighting other players, it's not a PvP dominant game. But I understand for some people, the mere potential for PvP will make it feel that way, because it occupies their head 100% of the time.

chibibree · March 19

@Nerror Awe, thank you! And I do see your point. I tend to agree with @Endowed however that in my opinion, it seems PvP Heavy (see chart in post above). But that doesn't mean its not going to be fun.

I think its going to be very different than what I am used to and I am pretty excited for that. Do I wish there were more PvE specific things? Yes, but still excited to try everything out.

@Fantmx That is a great perspective! I also like the way you guys have your differing opinions

Nerror · March 19

Fantmx wrote: »

Nerror wrote: »

From the talks on your nice streams, it's quite obvious the perceptions of where the PvP/PvE balance of the different Ashes systems lie vary wildly.

So yes, PvX is a spectrum, but the individual perception range of it is a MUCH wider spectrum than the actual PvE/PvP balance if you look at cold, hard data like time spent against the environment and time spent actually fighting another player in a given game session or gameplay loop.

Consider a dungeon run. You've spent almost an hour getting into a good spot, maybe taken down one boss and working on the next. Along comes another group and kills your group in 3 minutes. That's a PvX experience of 95% PvE and 5% PvP, so waaay on the PvE side of things. But I know several people who won't feel that way. They'll feel the PvP side of things weighs much heavier than the 5% it actually was. And that's fine, I understand that. It just makes it difficult to quantify when discussing it

We most definitely do. Dygz on one end, Neuro the other, and me in the middle. I don't think it as simple as saying you spent 90% of your time getting somewhere and 10% getting killed by another group means it is a 90/10 balance. That is one way to look at it. But I don't think it means very much to most players.

I agree. Looking purely at time spent isn't what makes sense for most players

chibibree wrote: »

I actually made an image for where things stand in my mind:

Great image Chibi, for illustrating the point. We categorize things very differently. For me, only arenas are pure PvP, because monsters can't interfere. Naval content, sieges, caravans, and even guild wars, fall into the PvX category for me, so in there with the dungeons and world bosses.

The potential for PvP doesn't make the whole thing PvP. I really think that is the major divide for a lot of people. Because it should go both ways then. If there is even a chance of a monster encounter in arena fighting, does that make it a PvE event? Same logic.

Edit: Actually, sieges and caravans should probably go in the middle, since they also have major economic gameplay relevance.

Edit2: I would put "Being a gatherer" in the middle too and remove the whole farming bosses as a master gatherer thing.

Ludullu · March 19

chibibree wrote: »

Do I wish there were more PvE specific things? Yes

I'm just curious, what exactly would those be?

Like, what is Ashes missing in that part of the design?

Otr · March 19

chibibree wrote: »

I actually made an image for where things stand in my mind:

You could try to place node types in these circles too.

Endowed · March 19

If its PvX and not PvP... There should be no rewards, besides ooc reputation, for BGs/Arenas that are instanced. So long as dungeons/raids/pveHunting are open to interference.

chibibree · March 20

Otr wrote: »

chibibree wrote: »

I actually made an image for where things stand in my mind:

You could try to place node types in these circles too.

That's a good idea!

chibibree · March 20

NiKr wrote: »

chibibree wrote: »

Do I wish there were more PvE specific things? Yes

I'm just curious, what exactly would those be?

Like, what is Ashes missing in that part of the design?

Things that have been weighing on me as of late are my love for more difficult dungeons but am not sure how that will play out for Ashes. I like harder Raids and more difficulty, etc. Just not sure how that will work with PvP being able to interfere. I wish there were more of an equal balance to instanced and non-instanced raids as well, but that is another thing I'll have to experience as well.

Ludullu · March 20

chibibree wrote: »

Things that have been weighing on me as of late are my love for more difficult dungeons but am not sure how that will play out for Ashes. I like harder Raids and more difficulty, etc. Just not sure how that will work with PvP being able to interfere. I wish there were more of an equal balance to instanced and non-instanced raids as well, but that is another thing I'll have to experience as well.

So it's not about pve for you, but simply instanced stuff.

Steven said there'll be super hard encounters in the game. It's just that majority of them won't be instanced.

What I'm saying is, don't say that the pve:pvp ratio is off. Simply say you want more instanced pve content. That way everyone will understand your point better and everyone will make their own judgement on that point.

chibibree · March 20

My point is that, by it being non instanced, it is more-so PvX when many of the PvP things are instanced. I know that there will be super hard, but will they be super hard because they are actually super hard or are they super hard because it's really just a little harder but also this group of PvP-ers are also now attacking you, splitting your attention.

TheHiddenDaggerInn · March 20

chibibree wrote: »

My point is that, by it being non instanced, it is more-so PvX when many of the PvP things are instanced. I know that there will be super hard, but will they be super hard because they are actually super hard or are they super hard because it's really just a little harder but also this group of PvP-ers are also now attacking you, splitting your attention.

It just is going to add another element you aren't familiar with atm, but with the right group I believe you will find enjoyable. Doing a hard encounter, while keeping your head on a swivel is even more rewarding and enjoyable when you finish it!

chibibree · March 20

ILLPeonU wrote: »

chibibree wrote: »

My point is that, by it being non instanced, it is more-so PvX when many of the PvP things are instanced. I know that there will be super hard, but will they be super hard because they are actually super hard or are they super hard because it's really just a little harder but also this group of PvP-ers are also now attacking you, splitting your attention.

It just is going to add another element you aren't familiar with atm, but with the right group I believe you will find enjoyable. Doing a hard encounter, while keeping your head on a swivel is even more rewarding and enjoyable when you finish it!

And that is what I'm hoping for haha which is why I keep saying, I will see in game. It is just a really new concept for me and I'm not sure how overwhelming it will be.

Ludullu · March 20

chibibree wrote: »

My point is that, by it being non instanced, it is more-so PvX when many of the PvP things are instanced.

Except we don't know how much arena we can play per day/week/month. And even if it's a ton - unless they literally give us gear for it, we'll spend more time outside of arenas than in them, because we'll need better gear to be better.

The only instanced pvp is arenas and sieges. Sieges are once a month (and we got no clue how often Node sieges will be), so ratio-wise, there's gonna be waaaaay more open world pvp/x than instanced stuff.

In other words, pvp might have a worse ratio than 80/20, when it comes to open world vs instanced.

chibibree wrote: »

I know that there will be super hard, but will they be super hard because they are actually super hard or are they super hard because it's really just a little harder but also this group of PvP-ers are also now attacking you, splitting your attention.

Yeah, we don't know how those hardcore encounters will be designed, but there's multiple ways of addressing the scale of pvxness in any given encounter and I'd expect Intrepid to use at least a few of those.

Endowed · March 20

chibibree wrote: »

My point is that, by it being non instanced, it is more-so PvX when many of the PvP things are instanced. I know that there will be super hard, but will they be super hard because they are actually super hard or are they super hard because it's really just a little harder but also this group of PvP-ers are also now attacking you, splitting your attention.

1,000,000%.

Aszkalon · March 20

chibibree wrote: »

I actually made an image for where things stand in my mind:

While my chronic Concentration Disorder hurts my Head when i look at a few Parts of this, well done.

I don't imagine things there, right ?

" Killing the Gatherer " ? ^.^

So People actually no Problem to admit that most PvP-Action " WILL " be the Role of the classic Highwaymen.
Or of a Pirate. >;-)

Cadac · March 20

No one will be better served by PVP Progression than an innocent gatherer like me.

Myosotys · March 20

chibibree wrote: »

Basis: I prefer PvE over PvP so, in my mind, I'd like to see more balance between the systems.

Is this a fantasy, yes. I know logically that PvX for Ashes consists of a blend, a mixture if you will, of both elements. Therefore, I think that when some of us say "Ashes isn't really PvX", what we mean is that it isn't what we would think PvX would be (Equal measure of both in my opinion).

Do I want PvE only servers? No. I enjoy the risks that come with the PvP Systems in mind. Will I need a group of friends to play with because (even though I'm complimented for living in the Caravan stream) I'm a big scaredy cat when it comes to PvP? Absolutely!

All in all, I'm just trying to say that I think PvX can be considered more of a spectrum where some of us like the (in my opinion) PvP heavy version of PvX and I'm sure there are some that prefer a more PvE heavy version of PvX.

I plan to play Ashes all the same, but I had seen this topic floating around and wanted to discuss it, or share my thoughts.

As I understood, PvX in AOC means the stakes involve mostly PvP but PvP is strictly regulated by a corruption system to leave room for PvE.

daveywavey · March 20

Aszkalon wrote: »

chibibree wrote: »

I actually made an image for where things stand in my mind:

While my chronic Concentration Disorder hurts my Head when i look at a few Parts of this, well done.

I don't imagine things there, right ?

" Killing the Gatherer " ? ^.^

So People actually no Problem to admit that most PvP-Action " WILL " be the Role of the classic Highwaymen.
Or of a Pirate. >;-)

Their cross-over between PvP and Economy is the Killing The Gatherer.

Their "PvP-action" itself is Arenas, Sieges, Caravans, Guild Wars, Naval.

Although, I'd probably put Caravans in the cross-over between PvP and Economy, too.

Aszkalon · March 20

Cadac wrote: »

No one will be better served by PVP Progression than an innocent gatherer like me.

How so, if i may ask ?

Any Bandit, Highwayman, Ganker or whatever else for Playerkiller, can just try to ambush and murder You for parts of your gathered Ingredients and Ressources inside your Pockets, right ?

Sure, he/she gets Corruption for it - but that doesn't make innocent Gatherers immune from being robbed.

Liniker · March 20

different players different perspectives, thats the beauty of MMOs

My PvX != Your PvX

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