My PvX != Your PvX

Basis: I prefer PvE over PvP so, in my mind, I'd like to see more balance between the systems.

Is this a fantasy, yes. I know logically that PvX for Ashes consists of a blend, a mixture if you will, of both elements. Therefore, I think that when some of us say "Ashes isn't really PvX", what we mean is that it isn't what we would think PvX would be (Equal measure of both in my opinion).

Do I want PvE only servers? No. I enjoy the risks that come with the PvP Systems in mind. Will I need a group of friends to play with because (even though I'm complimented for living in the Caravan stream) I'm a big scaredy cat when it comes to PvP? Absolutely!

All in all, I'm just trying to say that I think PvX can be considered more of a spectrum where some of us like the (in my opinion) PvP heavy version of PvX and I'm sure there are some that prefer a more PvE heavy version of PvX.

I plan to play Ashes all the same, but I had seen this topic floating around and wanted to discuss it, or share my thoughts.

Find more posts tagged with

Staff

Comments

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I've not seen this in any MMORPG at all - ever. I have never seen content in a game that is purely for storytelling.

This won't be a thing in Ashes.

Even if there are instances tied to story in the game, the reason people will be running that content is not to complete the story - it is to get the gear that is awarded either along the way, or at the end. This gear will then be used in PvP to remove other players, be that in wars, sieges, caravans or open world PvP.

I'm fairly sure FF14 is built on story dungeons. And when I played the little of it that I did, the gear in those dungeons was useless, because I had gotten better stuff in other quests already. Same was true for even the little that I played of Tera.

And did you consider this content to be an "ultimate pve-based goal"?

And the gear part will supposedly be even more true in Ashes, cause open world gear will be better than stuff from instances. There's a chance that Steven decides to do a "everyone gets rewarded" thing with story dungeons, but I personally don't see that happening.

Sure it will.

Archeage had low level instanced dungeons with gear that was worse than what was offered in the open world. The dungeons were quite simply not used by people of the appropriate level. The only people running them were those at the level cap using friends lower level alts to trigger the requirements for a daily task.

Put simply, if the rewards are lesser than what can be attained in the open world, you are putting yourself at a competitive disadvantage running that content, and most people will simply avoid it.

Point is - nothing here at all is suggesting that this content will be the PvE goal you are talking about.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

Point is - nothing here at all is suggesting that this content will be the PvE goal you are talking about.

I feel like you missed my clarification on what I meant by "ultimate pve goal". It's story of the game. That's it. People play games for the story. Majority of people play the game for the dev-created purely main quest story.

I expect those instanced dungeons to be that story. The entire point of making those dungeons instanced is to let LITERALLY EVERYONE finish them w/o being scared that someone will stop them from doing the base lvl story content.

To you "ultimate" is gear and hardcore bosses. To Dygz it's his own style of roleplaying. To someone else it might be something else. But as Asmon keeps saying about old WoW and as I've seen COUNTLESS times in Genshin - majority of people only care about the big main story quest.

A ton of people stopped playing WoW in WotLK because it was THE story of Warcraft (as is shown in the player numbers at the time).

And "normies only play the MQ of Genshin" is a huge meme in the community.

And I expect that "the normies" of Ashes will do the exact same. And Steven seems to expect this as well, hence the instanced story dungeons. So never forget that not a single damn person on these forums is a "normie". We're all on some extreme end of some kind of gaming spectrum. And that extremeness creates a bias for our povs, because even our own gaming circles are not too far from that extreme.

Otr

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Point is - nothing here at all is suggesting that this content will be the PvE goal you are talking about.

I feel like you missed my clarification on what I meant by "ultimate pve goal". It's story of the game. That's it. People play games for the story. Majority of people play the game for the dev-created purely main quest story.

I expect those instanced dungeons to be that story. The entire point of making those dungeons instanced is to let LITERALLY EVERYONE finish them w/o being scared that someone will stop them from doing the base lvl story content.

To see the romance cutscenes.
I don't want players in my instance or my grandmother nearby.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Point is - nothing here at all is suggesting that this content will be the PvE goal you are talking about.

I feel like you missed my clarification on what I meant by "ultimate pve goal".

Perhaps you just used the wrong word.

Ultimate - being or happening at the end of a process; final.

Alternatively, being the best or most extreme example of its kind.

Thus, any ultimate PvE goal would be either the most extreme example of PvE, or what ever PvE is at the end of what ever process the game has.

I'm not at all saying that the game won't have story content. I'm arguing that this content won't be "ultimate" anything in Ashes.

As to story and players running that content - Asmon is running a business based on views of his content - what he says is usually based on getting more of those views, moreso than being accurate.

As an example, looking at Archeage. The game was had a three novel book series published to support it's lore. Despite that, most people playing Archeage didn't realize there was an actual story in the game, let alone deep lore behind that story. People knew the figures in the games lore as mobs in the game world and literally nothing more. Even on Korean servers, even when people had read the books, the lore of the game didn't matter.

Archeage has instanced story dungeons across all levels of the game - I've talked about them on these forums before in that the only people that use them are those cheesing a mentor system for end game gains.

Steven knows this to be how it will be in Ashes - because his guild were often around those dungeons swapping in and out of alts.

If he has some sort of illusion that Intrepid can write a better story with the basic design the games world has, he is wrong. With the way the world is in Ashes, the best we can hope for is multiple self-contained stories that have a general relation to each other in some manner. There is no scope to add a full, complete story to Ashes in the way a game like WoW can, because the game is designed specifically to make that impossible.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

If he has some sort of illusion that Intrepid can write a better story with the basic design the games world has, he is wrong. With the way the world is in Ashes, the best we can hope for is multiple self-contained stories that have a general relation to each other in some manner. There is no scope to add a full, complete story to Ashes in the way a game like WoW can, because the game is designed specifically to make that impossible.

And if he fails - he fails. And if the only ones who play Ashes are the same ones that player L2/AA and didn't care about the story - so be it.

Considering that we know nothing of the story or the dungeons for that story - I'll leave my final judgment until we do. I doubt Steven's promises as much as you do, but that doubt can only become a fact once the game releases and the doubt come true. So until then, for me, the ultimate pve goal of Ashes will be finishing the story.

And yes, I do mean "final', cause the end of the story is exactly that - the final point of it. Killing other mobs, that might be related to lore, will just be grind that I do for pvp reasons (just as you pointed out), but unless some of those mobs are directly linked to the main story - they wouldn't be the ultimate goal of the game's pve for me.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

And yes, I do mean "final', cause the end of the story is exactly that - the final point of it.

Except it usually isn't.

Every game I have ever played has continued the games main story quests in what is considered post main story content - dungeon and raid progression, sometimes solo progression as well.

I've yet to see a single content cycle with a main story that actually finished at the end of the main quest line.

People often leave at that point in content in a game like WoW because they are actually just playing the easy content, not because that is the end of the story.

Considering that we know nothing of the story or the dungeons for that story - I'll leave my final judgment until we do.

Feel free to try and imagine how a game can have cohesive story tied to it's content when each server will have different content.

It's also worth pointing out that back in 2017/2018, Steven said several times that the game wouldn't present players with a story, as he thought the story of Ashes should be the story of the players own making.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

Every game I have ever played has continued the games main story quests in what is considered post main story content - dungeon and raid progression, sometimes solo progression as well.

I've yet to see a single content cycle with a main story that actually finished at the end of the main quest line.

People often leave at that point in content in a game like WoW because they are actually just playing the easy content, not because that is the end of the story.

From what I've heard of FF14's later expansions, the MQ dungeons (and main content overall) have been getting even easier. So devs realized the thing I'm talking about and were providing the finale of the story for the people that you're talking about.

I'm sure there was some post-MQ stuff that added some details or whatever, but if it was super important to the story - devs woulda had it in the MQ itself.

So, like I said, none of us are normies here, so you not having played games that appeal to MQ story players just proves that. Or alternatively your pov is just so divorced from a normie's one that to you "not doing the post-MQ" stuff simply means "well, you didn't finish shit". And that's an ok opinion to have.

It remains to be seen how Ashes will end up, but as you yourself pointed out

It's also worth pointing out that back in 2017/2018, Steven said several times that the game wouldn't present players with a story, as he thought the story of Ashes should be the story of the players own making.

And later on his wording changed and we supposedly got some kind of story for the game.

And Azherae even has some data that the game has been becoming more and more popular with the WoW crowd (pretty much the normies in this context), so, yes, I'll keep imagining that Steven's vision might be doable as long as he believes that it is.

Dygz

blat wrote: »

= $$$
It's a diluted version of the game made to pander to the masses.

Nope. For WoW, PvE is the foundation of the game design - with PvP tacked on mostly as an after-thought.
True for the majority of RPGs - including MMORPGs.

Dygz

Otr wrote: »

I guess I start to understand why this change bothers you.
By adding the open sea, all those players who would spend most of their time playing there are potentially different from those who spend their time on land. It is like having 2 different audiences.
But so far IS didn't placed any nodes into the open sea, to have so called pirate bases and the open sea is still separated from the node ZoI and whatever they do there do not help their nodes. This is consistent with the corrupted players having no way to store items and loot into chests, anywhere.
To keep the initial design philosophy, the open sea should not have the best drops from sea monsters or fishing. Then you can say you have no reason to go there at all. If that will happen or not, not even Alpha 2 can show because such things can be added anytime, even after release.
So compared to EvE where you can have player made stations in null sector, AoC prevents that. A player spending all his time in the ocean will not help his node and will not get node specific currencies either.

It doesn't really "bother" me.
It's a large area of the map that is a permanent auto-flag, free-for-all Corruption-free PvP combat zone.
And I don't play games that have areas like that.
Because I'm going to want to explore that are without being subject to PvP.
It's a great addition for Steven's playstyle. It's just a ruleset that I have no interest in playing.

I am an Explorer first and foremost.
I am not really motivated by Risk or Reward.
I explore the entire map because that's what I like to do most. Even if there is no other reward besides uncovering the fog of war.
Same with Defending Caravans and/or Sieges. I don't necessarily care about the rewards or the "risks".
I like to sometimes Defend objectives, like Towns and Cities, and while I'm doing that, I don't necessarily care whether or not the Attackers are players or mobs.
But, that's for about 1/8 of my play session. And... when I'm not in the mood for the 7/8 of my play session - I need to be completely immune from PvP.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Every game I have ever played has continued the games main story quests in what is considered post main story content - dungeon and raid progression, sometimes solo progression as well.

I've yet to see a single content cycle with a main story that actually finished at the end of the main quest line.

People often leave at that point in content in a game like WoW because they are actually just playing the easy content, not because that is the end of the story.

From what I've heard of FF14's later expansions, the MQ dungeons (and main content overall) have been getting even easier. So devs realized the thing I'm talking about and were providing the finale of the story for the people that you're talking about.

I'm sure there was some post-MQ stuff that added some details or whatever, but if it was super important to the story - devs woulda had it in the MQ itself.

So, like I said, none of us are normies here, so you not having played games that appeal to MQ story players just proves that. Or alternatively your pov is just so divorced from a normie's one that to you "not doing the post-MQ" stuff simply means "well, you didn't finish shit". And that's an ok opinion to have.

It remains to be seen how Ashes will end up, but as you yourself pointed out

I'm not sure quite what to say here.

Almond said something to get a reaction out of his audience and increase engagement with his channel, and you have taken it at face value.

If you wish to believe that Ashes will have a story good enough to see people play the game just for said story, and a main quest line that people will run despite the constant interruption from PvP, then have at it.

I, however, will maintain the points I have made;

Main quests in MMO's aren't the end of the story.
Developers specifically want the story to continue past the main quest line.
Most people that only run main quests do so because it is easily accessible content.
People only interested in easy content won't be interested in Ashes.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

Almond said something to get a reaction out of his audience and increase engagement with his channel, and you have taken it at face value.

Asmon was talking about WotLK, not ff14. And numbers support what he said. Playerbase went down right after it

Noaani wrote: »

People only interested in easy content won't be interested in Ashes.

Yes, there is a high chance that this will be the case.

Though it still wouldn't change what I see as ultimate pve goal, so this will just be yet another point that we disagree on

blat

Dygz wrote: »

blat wrote: »

= $$$
It's a diluted version of the game made to pander to the masses.

Nope. For WoW, PvE is the foundation of the game design - with PvP tacked on mostly as an after-thought.
True for the majority of RPGs - including MMORPGs.

Foundation or not, anyone who played a PvE server has had a massively diluted experience.

CROW3

blat wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

blat wrote: »

= $$$
It's a diluted version of the game made to pander to the masses.

Nope. For WoW, PvE is the foundation of the game design - with PvP tacked on mostly as an after-thought.
True for the majority of RPGs - including MMORPGs.

Foundation or not, anyone who played a PvE server has had a massively diluted experience.

100%. The most fun years of WoW were 2004-2008, Vanilla and TBC on a PvP server. WotLK was the beginning of the shift toward casual AoE raiding.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Almond said something to get a reaction out of his audience and increase engagement with his channel, and you have taken it at face value.

Asmon was talking about WotLK, not ff14. And numbers support what he said. Playerbase went down right after it

I'm sure those numbers have nothing to do with Cataclysm sucking.

Also, if people were only running the main quest (which takes the most casual of player a few weeks at most), why was the population on an upward incline for WotLK? If what Asmon (or Almond, as my phone seems to want to correct that to) is right, the population should have been on a massive downward trend for all of WotLK.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

I'm sure those numbers have nothing to do with Cataclysm sucking.

Also, if people were only running the main quest (which takes the most casual of player a few weeks at most), why was the population on an upward incline for WotLK? If what Asmon (or Almond, as my phone seems to want to correct that to) is right, the population should have been on a massive downward trend for all of WotLK.

According to google, the Lich King fight came out in the middle of the patch. And afaik wow fights usually get downgraded in power with time, so that weaker people can clear them (happening right now in some wow version).

So to me it makes total sense that anyone who has played wow at some point or even started right as the fight came out would take +-6 months to fully clear the story (cause you still gotta find a group to do it with).

And then Cata starts dropping people within barely 1-2 months of release, which to me says "people's subs ran out and/or they stayed for one extra month and saw that the story was over at that point".

Also, don't forget that quite a few people buy 6 or 12 months sub bundles, so cata dropping several million people within a year just means that people stopped renewing their subs.

blat

Tbh I really don't think story had a great deal to do with people bailing after WotLK.
It was definitely part of it, whether you were into the story or not Wrath felt like a culmination of the game, and the writing/theme after it just felt bolted-on.
Although it was never really my thing.

IMO a lot of the convenience, flying mounts and LFG did most of it. Randomly mega OP new class/specs with every new patch.
Just the general dumbing down of the game killed the original vibe.

It's a real shame as combat was so sweet around TBC/Wrath.

HybridSR

Dygz wrote: »

Yep.
I don’t play RPGs for Risk or adrenaline-rush or competition.

Not trying to be a dick Dygz, but why are you here then? Steven has been literally saying from the start that AoC will be a game of friction, contesting, not everyone will be a winner, etc. Also if you know anything about L2 which takes about 20 seconds if you Google (and once again L2 is AoC's biggest inspiration together with AA), then you'd instantly know that it's ALL about risk, mass pvp, competition.

Also, why don't you like it? I've played PvE MMOs before. They're boring as hell. It's literally doing the same thing 300 times until you're done. Literally ONE month playing a PVP MMO like L2 would've given you memories that beats anything WoW or FF can give you. You think finally getting that piece of gear from the same Raid Boss after 100 tries feels better than capturing a castle with your buddies? Nothing in WoW/FF or any of those games comes close to the thrill of PvP and winning with the boys.

blat

/subscribe @HybridSR

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

According to google, the Lich King fight came out in the middle of the patch.

See, now you're talking about raid bosses.

Again, Asmon says what ever he thinks will increase e gsgement with his content - in regards to factual information you should just ignore everything he says.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

See, now you're talking about raid bosses.

Beating the Lich King is the end of that story (afaik).

And again, I used Asmon as simply an example. Cata's sub numbers show that they started going down pretty much immediately, meaning that people stopped their subs even before they knew for sure that cata was a bad expansion.

I've seen a ton of people say they have no interest for what FF14 will put out in the future, because the current overarching story has ended.

I'm sure there are more story-based mmos out there that I simply don't know, but considering that these are the biggest ones, I do think their examples are valid for what I'm trying to say.

Child Item