Battlepass in MMOs

State your opinion, I'll start with mine

They're dumb they are meant for repetitive games like shooters, they give you something to do in a games that are arena pvp weather it be a MOBA or Shooter. MMOs are supposed to keep you busy. adding chores on top of that for things I should just be able to work for tends to leave a bad taste in mouth.

Also the monetization of it is kind of dumb as well. FFXIV and WoW have raked in large amounts of money just doing cosmetics on the shop, do that without the predatory fear of missing out.

One other argument for me was when I was playing NW I wanted to support the game, I bought up dyes and emotes and spent more money on that game then I have any other game as far as cosmetics, I supported it because it was simple and clean way for them to make extra money. I stopped giving them my money after they started doing the battlepass. It even made me not care about collecting all the emotes anymore. It wasn't even to protest, I just stopped caring.

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Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I actually don't fault the way either of them play the game, to be perfectly clear. They play it in a way that interests them, and the way they each play it challenges them in ways they each enjoy. It's just that neither of them make use of more than about 10% of the game.

To me that's the pinnacle of sandboxiness though.

Fair enough.

Perhaps a better statement than my originan "children don't play Minecraft as a sandbox" comment would be better expressed as simply stating that children prefer direction.

My mother owns an early childhood education center. Something she noticed years ago is that if you put children (especially those aged 3 or 4, but it applies up to about 11) in a play situation without rules, one of the first things they will do is create rules.

If the rules they give themselves exclude a given piece of equipment, then that piece of equipment will go unused.

This is what I was referring to with my nephews. They have each given themselves their own set of "rules" within which to experience Minecraft. They don't experience anything of the game outside of their self imposed rules.

Sure, an argument can be made that this is perfectly fine within a sandbox, but that argument rests on the notion that a sandbox is what ever you want, thus everything is perfectly fine within a sandbox.

My point was more along the lines that they have given themselves rules within that sandbox.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I actually don't fault the way either of them play the game, to be perfectly clear. They play it in a way that interests them, and the way they each play it challenges them in ways they each enjoy. It's just that neither of them make use of more than about 10% of the game.

To me that's the pinnacle of sandboxiness though. You could build sand cubes, because you only have a square sandbucket, but you still enjoy the hell out of it, or you could use every grand of sand in the box to make the best castle there is and enjoy the hell out of that. But the main point is that you're absolutely free to do whatever and no one can tell you that you're doing it wrong or point you at what you "need" to do.

This is the part that's relevant to this conversation the most though.

MineCraft is barely a 'game' if you play it in true Sandbox mode. It's actually not that much better when you don't, without mods.

In many ways it does 'tell you what to do' by effectively gating many activity options behind challenges of very specific kinds. They don't always come in the same order, but that's purely luck of the draw at world creation.

So for you, you would 'make your own fun and objectives' which is how you also want to play Ashes. For some others, they have to 'start over in a new world' and repeat the same ones with the variation provided, to get a new experience.

Choosing to do that is an ability that moves MineCraft closer to a true sandbox, and it's probably what Dygz would end up doing/want the equivalent of, in Ashes. It's just that Ashes has to put effort into doing it, whereas MineCraft can just leverage random terrain generation to give that type of person more content.

A BattlePass, would effectively be closer to 'get all these specific achievements in your Survival world to get a new cape, skin, and special FX for your character!', and it would probably work, because those people don't dislike logging into the same World they've been playing for the last month, they just don't naturally generate new things for themselves to do, once they have jumped over all the hurdles and through the hoops of the early game.

Eventually they get 'bored', get 'nostalgic', and then restart the loop, jump through the hoops again for that enjoyment, and feel better, but some people don't have the capacity to feel 'rewarded' doing this because brains are just like that.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

But, the Battlepass Tasks can keep players who primarily play for Quests and the dev-curated story and who like Cosmetics playing twice to three times longer than it takes to complete all the Quests and the dev-curated story featured in the DLC.

Why can't this be done without a battlepass?

If that developer curated story was just a part of the game, and gave cosmetics as you followed it, why wouldn't that keep these players just as interested in the game?

Essentially, imagine the same thing as a battlepass, but without calling it a battlepass, and with it just being a part of the normal new content.

With that in mind, why is there a need for it to be broken off and made it's own paid-for thing?

Ludullu

Dygz wrote: »

There are also free Battlepass paths.
I play the free path of the WoW Battlepass.
I play the free path of the NW Battlepass.

I guess, technically I pay for the Fortnite Battlepass - but it doesn't feel like it because it comes as a perk for being a member of the Fortnite Crew: a monthly sub that costs the price of the cheapest Skin in the Item Shop.

Btw, why don't you pay for other BPs? Is it purely because Fortnite provides more rewards than the premium counterparts from the other games? Is it based on how much time you spend in each game? Is it because Fortnite is f2p, while the other 2 cost money at their base access lvl?

Azherae wrote: »

You'd be so different even as MineCraft players that there's no way for you to 'get it'.

I wouldn't get it even more, cause I've always been a Terraria person too. And it has even more enemies that screw your gameplay up and it's also more of a combat experience overall, which I'd assume wouldn't interest Dygz at all or at least not as much.

Though even with all that combat, my main gameplay loop in Terraria has always been:

explore the entire map before touching a single boss
make a huge garden to get all plants for buffs
craft all the buffs
mine all the precious materials
craft all the best gear possible at this stage
kill bosses
repeat the three points above until the game ends

From what I've seen of Minecraft's plain gameplay I'd imagine I'd play it in the same way.

Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

Everything is completely free and goes into the game after the season is done, so nothing is fomo. This is, in a way, a perfect BP. The only reason for its existence, as I can see, is just telling people what to do in the game. At which point I'll simply agree with other posters in this thread in saying that it's a very sad state of affairs if gamers have rotted their brain to such a point where they need to be told how to play a game.

I've said many times that I play the free versions of the NW and WoW Battlepasses.
I'm not the one who's claiming that a Battlepass must have a paid path. And I also haven't said that Ashes must have a Battlepass.
And I've been saying that modern Battlepasses have very little fomo.

I expect Ashes will have a Battlepass.
MMORPGs were a very sad state of existence the moment they reached the common state of gamers racing to Endgame in 6-8 weeks and then needing to wait 12-18 months for new content via an Expansion.
That's 15+ years.

NiKr wrote: »

The game on its own is not gamefied enough to be a game, I guess, so they had to add a BP to make playing the game more fun.

I guesss, the other reason could also be removal of rng in the cosmetics acquisition. BP just gives you everything, while if you've missed stuff from it - you'll have to get lucky in other sources, if you wanna get the precise item you missed.

Yep. Typically 75% of the population that peak at the beginning of an Expansion leave after 60-100 hours of play.
A Seasonal BP attempts to get a surge in players playing for 100 hours 4 times per year instead of a surge of players playing 100 hours once every 12-18 months.

I dunno what "just gives you everything means".
Quests just "give you everything, too". The difference is, we can see in advance what all of the rewards will be.
And you can the rewards by doing a wide variety of things in the game whenever you are in the mood to do them, rather than the rewards being tied to a specific quest or a specific mob.
You still have to do a bunch of stuff in the game to get the rewards on the Battlepass. You've got three months to play 100hours to get all the stuff, so.., probably won't miss anything. And if you do miss for some reason - you may be able to get it later in other ways.

NiKr wrote: »

But, considering that the devs have direct control of all those other sources - this could've been designed in a different way. I also don't know how the rng works in DRG, cause it might have a system where you can't get dupes from it, at which point we're simply back to the "BP serves no purpose" thing.

Maybe but...
Battlepass works fine. And they serve their purpose. Might not be interesting for your playstyle - just a Raids are not interesting for my playstyle.
I have no clue why dupes or RNG needs to be a thing for the Battlepass.

Show time! More later!

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

I have no clue why dupes or RNG needs to be a thing for the Battlepass.

Because that is their purpose.

The kind of thing you are talking about in both WoW (season passes) and Fortnite are dupes. Battlepass is the mechanic by which that dupe is obfuscated.

With Fortnite specifically, there is always a better, more consumer friendly manner in which that content could be offered to players - but doing it in that more consumer friendly manner removes that camoflage of the dupe they are purpetrating.

Again, that is the issue we all have.

The content you are talking about is fine, in and of itself. No one is saying it can't or shouldn't exist, if Intrepid feel it is worth it. It is the nammer in which it is added to games that is the issue.

You've not managed to come up with an argument at all as to why this couldn't just be added to the game - why it needs to be in the form of a battlepass.

Ludullu

Dygz wrote: »

I've said many times that I play the free versions of the NW and WoW Battlepasses.

DRG is not the same as those games, because it doesn't have a premium version of the BP, so there's no comparison between the free version and the paid one. Paid versions always have more rewards, so anyone who doesn't pay for them won't get those cosmetics.

Dygz wrote: »

instead of a surge of players playing 100 hours once every 12-18 months.

Please move one from the "12-18 months" thing. It's pointless in the context of Ashes, because Ashes will have new content every quarter (supposedly).

Dygz wrote: »

I dunno what "just gives you everything means".

"Everything" here being all the cosmetics on the BP.

DRG's cosmetics from the BP move onto in-game acquisition methods, which are mostly rng-based. Which is why I said that BP provides a way to get all the cosmetics that it has, while missing some of them might result in your waiting longer to get them due to rng.

Dygz wrote: »

I have no clue why dupes or RNG needs to be a thing for the Battlepass

They don't and that's not what I was talking about. I was simply saying that even DRG's system is not as perfect overall, even though it's way better than absolute majority of games with a BP.

bloodprophet

That's not making me a loot pinata. It's also not fucking me over.
For less than the price of 3 Skins, I end up with 10 Skins.
And I have 100 hours of fun playing the game.
That is win/win.

That is awesome it works this way for you. However your not the average player either.

https://www.demandsage.com/fortnite-statistics/

Source: Statista.

Fortnite gamers in the United States reported that they had spent an average of $102. 42 in the year 2020. While the average spending of Fortnite players in the year 2018 was $84.67.

Year Average In-Game Spending By Fortnite Players
2018 $84.67
2020 $102.42

Source: Statista.

58.9% of the players spend 58.9% on outfits and characters. In contrast, 18.06% of players spend on Gliders.

The following table displays the categories on which Fortnite players spend the most money:
Category Percentage Of Fortnite Players
Outfit and character 58.9%
Gliders 18.06%
Harvesting tools 13.52%
Emotes 9.52%

I won't go digging sure deep into all the background research on this. Going to take this at face value. But if this is that stats as reported you are far from the average player in this demographic.

I searched for : average amount players spend in fortnight 2024 and most links coincide with this metric.

Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

Nah, you're completely wrong on that part. Minecraft has been the biggest game ever and that shit is as sandboxy as it gets. And afaik that shit doesn't have a BP and only got a story waay later into its lifespan. And it has always attracted the childreniest children ever.

BPs just make use of those children. They keep the kids playing the game for longer, to keep up the metrics high. They get literally billions from them by having fomo and prolonged BP grind (because rich kids can flaunt their boosted BP cosmetics on the second day of the BP, while the poor kid has to grind for weeks for it). And on top of all of that the best cosmetics are obviously behind the paid BP, so kids beg their parents to buy it for them.

It's all a huge damn scheme to rob children of their pocket money. And it's obviously working fucking perfectly.

I just find it really interesting that Dygz' mind is also prey to these schemes. Though if he's happy playing it - all good, cause he's at least a grown man. I just don't want this shit in Ashes, because I want Intrepid to do better.

Um. The billions of dollars for Fornite are primarily generated from the Cash Shop; not the Battlepass.
The Battlepass itself is around $2 per month. And I spend around $100 per month on Skins from the Item Shop.
What I love about Fortnite is the diversity of the characters/character Skins. Because I had to wait 20+ years to be able to play characters who look like me and who reperesnt with wide range of cultures I went to grade school with, rather than being stuck playing characters who either look like white European Americans or Evil/savage/bestial Furries.
Even before Fortnite had a Battlepass and a Battle Royale - I would spend $100 each month collecting a team of Heroes and Survivors that is mostly comprised of African/Americans and Latinos.
And that's always so that I can have diverse protagonists when I create machinima microfiction.
Adults like making stories for kids.

I don't play RPGs because I'm a competitive gamer.
I primarily play RPGs because I'm an actor/singer/dancer (in that order) and I crave the cooperative, interactive storytelling aspects of RP that allow me to virtually experience Fantasy Novels.
I use the rules and mechanics of Races/Classes/Stats/Skills/Abilities to inform how I'm going to act out the personalities of my characters.
I'm basically playing a role as if it's a stage play - with quite a bit of improv, but also quite a bit of authored story. And, yeah, that might sometimes involve combat and sometimes PvP - but that's why I'm 0% Killer on the Bartle Scale.
I am not at all interested in playing a Sandbox RPG. I prefer to play a Themebox RPG. And I will settle for a Themepark RPG.

https://x.com/DygzBriarthorn

Depraved

Dygz wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Nah, you're completely wrong on that part. Minecraft has been the biggest game ever and that shit is as sandboxy as it gets. And afaik that shit doesn't have a BP and only got a story waay later into its lifespan. And it has always attracted the childreniest children ever.

BPs just make use of those children. They keep the kids playing the game for longer, to keep up the metrics high. They get literally billions from them by having fomo and prolonged BP grind (because rich kids can flaunt their boosted BP cosmetics on the second day of the BP, while the poor kid has to grind for weeks for it). And on top of all of that the best cosmetics are obviously behind the paid BP, so kids beg their parents to buy it for them.

It's all a huge damn scheme to rob children of their pocket money. And it's obviously working fucking perfectly.

I just find it really interesting that Dygz' mind is also prey to these schemes. Though if he's happy playing it - all good, cause he's at least a grown man. I just don't want this shit in Ashes, because I want Intrepid to do better.

Um. The billions of dollars for Fornite are primarily generated from the Cash Shop; not the Battlepass.
The Battlepass itself is around $2 per month. And I spend around $100 per month on Skins from the Item Shop.
What I love about Fortnite is the diversity of the characters/character Skins. Because I had to wait 20+ years to be able to play characters who look like me and who reperesnt with wide range of cultures I went to grade school with, rather than being stuck playing characters who either look like white European Americans or Evil/savage/bestial Furries.
Even before Fortnite had a Battlepass and a Battle Royale - I would spend $100 each month collecting a team of Heroes and Survivors that is mostly comprised of African/Americans and Latinos.
And that's always so that I can have diverse protagonists when I create machinima microfiction.
Adults like making stories for kids.

I don't play RPGs because I'm a competitive gamer.
I primarily play RPGs because I'm an actor/singer/dancer (in that order) and I crave the cooperative, interactive storytelling aspects of RP that allow me to virtually experience Fantasy Novels.
I use the rules and mechanics of Races/Classes/Stats/Skills/Abilities to inform how I'm going to act out the personalities of my characters.
I'm basically playing a role as if it's a stage play - with quite a bit of improv, but also quite a bit of authored story. And, yeah, that might sometimes involve combat and sometimes PvP - but that's why I'm 0% Killer on the Bartle Scale.
I am not at all interested in playing a Sandbox RPG. I prefer to play a Themebox RPG. And I will settle for a Themepark RPG.

I never thought ud be into fortnite. this is so surprising to me. like do u actually log in and kill people?

Dygz

Depraved wrote: »

I never thought ud be into fortnite. this is so surprising to me. like do u actually log in and kill people?

PvP is OK sometimes. When I get to choose that I'm going to PvP - rather than some other player deciding I have to PvP - even when I'm not in the mood for PvP.

I'm playing LEGO Fortnite. A few months after release, LEGO Fortnite added a PvP option you can turn on, but of course I have that turned off.

When I played vanilla Fortnite 6+ years ago, it was Save The World.
They didn't have the Battle Royale yet. And I think they had Loot Boxes; not a Battlepass.

During the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Chapter earlier this year (Jan-Feb?), I jumped into the BR for a bit, but I played it pretty much exactly the same way I played APOC - focusing mostly on the non-combat Tasks on the Battlepass, but occassionally killing people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5dwP2jtCrA

Saabynator

Liniker wrote: »

I just think its insane for a game with a mandatory monthly sub to charge extra for a battlepass, this would be one of the worst shit shows ever, worse than the Battle Royale was, the large audience would bash the game, AoC would be a bigger meme than Diablo Imortal was,

from a battle royale, to a 250$ alpha, to a monthly sub game with battlepass... whats next a VIP system on top of that? jesus.. at least its not on Steam for the overwhelmingly negative reviews...

Hopefully intrepid is self aware and learned their lesson

I mean, WOW making billions on cosmetics, and they are a sub game? A BP is essentially just a cosmedi package you can buy. So I dont see a problem with it. Its not something you have to buy. The normal sub,is to make sure there is money to make new content, customer service and the like.

bloodprophet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWIEdSDVmQY

Mag7spy

bloodprophet wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWIEdSDVmQY

You are watching too much YouTube you are going to get brain rot. All these videos are for click bait views. Unless you are agree with him Halo should be free with 0 monetization. You are trying to live in a echo chamber.

Which at this point you should just ask IS to make AoC free with 0 monetization. Random youtube videos are not helping any point, just shows me how bad takes they have.

Depraved

Dygz wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

I never thought ud be into fortnite. this is so surprising to me. like do u actually log in and kill people?

PvP is OK sometimes. When I get to choose that I'm going to PvP - rather than some other player deciding I have to PvP - even when I'm not in the mood for PvP.

I'm playing LEGO Fortnite. A few months after release, LEGO Fortnite added a PvP option you can turn on, but of course I have that turned off.

When I played vanilla Fortnite 6+ years ago, it was Save The World.
They didn't have the Battle Royale yet. And I think they had Loot Boxes; not a Battlepass.

During the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Chapter earlier this year (Jan-Feb?), I jumped into the BR for a bit, but I played it pretty much exactly the same way I played APOC - focusing mostly on the non-combat Tasks on the Battlepass, but occassionally killing people.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5dwP2jtCrA

I had no idea there was a lego fortnite game and that fn had a mode that wasn't battle royale lol

bloodprophet

Mag7spy wrote: »

bloodprophet wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWIEdSDVmQY

You are watching too much YouTube you are going to get brain rot. All these videos are for click bait views. Unless you are agree with him Halo should be free with 0 monetization. You are trying to live in a echo chamber.

Which at this point you should just ask IS to make AoC free with 0 monetization. Random youtube videos are not helping any point, just shows me how bad takes they have.

I find your emotional attachment to Steven's wallet ....interesting.
Personally I hope this game is so successful Steven becomes a Billinoaire from it.

Several times, several of us have asked why this is a good thing and so far money is your best answer.

I am still working to understand why it is ok for companies to take content that should be in the game and put it behind a paywall outside of the game.

Depraved

bloodprophet wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

bloodprophet wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWIEdSDVmQY

You are watching too much YouTube you are going to get brain rot. All these videos are for click bait views. Unless you are agree with him Halo should be free with 0 monetization. You are trying to live in a echo chamber.

Which at this point you should just ask IS to make AoC free with 0 monetization. Random youtube videos are not helping any point, just shows me how bad takes they have.

I am still working to understand why it is ok for companies to take content that should be in the game and put it behind a paywall outside of the game.

because people want that. if people didn't, companies wouldn't. duh. no one is going to sell something no one will ever buy.

anyways, content that should be in the game..whats in the game or not is decided by the game makers. there isn't anything wrong with adding skins later on and selling them through the shop or a battle pass. they could just not add anything in the first place and people wouldn't complain.

Otr

Dygz wrote: »

I don't play RPGs because I'm a competitive gamer.
I primarily play RPGs because I'm an actor/singer/dancer (in that order) and I crave the cooperative, interactive storytelling aspects of RP that allow me to virtually experience Fantasy Novels.
I use the rules and mechanics of Races/Classes/Stats/Skills/Abilities to inform how I'm going to act out the personalities of my characters.
I'm basically playing a role as if it's a stage play - with quite a bit of improv, but also quite a bit of authored story. And, yeah, that might sometimes involve combat and sometimes PvP - but that's why I'm 0% Killer on the Bartle Scale.
I am not at all interested in playing a Sandbox RPG. I prefer to play a Themebox RPG. And I will settle for a Themepark RPG.

I like this answer.

Given that sometime ago IS had a pinned thread asking what makes Role-playing better and they say PvE builds the world and PvP destroy it, content you like could be introduced as events happening in regions affected by the fall of a metropolis.
Players who participate in them, beside getting something they can collect, should help grow the nodes (because instead of spending time with caravans and commissions whey spend time with such events)
Also these would compensate the monster coin events which are focused toward attacking and destroying nodes.

Will you participate in such events?

Dygz

Nope. Due to the Open Seas, I won't really be playing Ashes.
Only thing I will be doing is exploring as much of the map as possible with the lowest Level(s) I can maintain - and 0 Kills.

So, that means I won't be participating in any activity that could resuly in me going above 0 Kills.
And I also won't be doing anything other than exploration that could increase Levels.

But, everything we do in the game helps increase Nodes, I think.
I guess that should include exploring - I dunno.

Dygz

bloodprophet wrote: »

I am still working to understand why it is ok for companies to take content that should be in the game and put it behind a paywall outside of the game.

Cosmetic Store is already behind a paywall outside of the game.
And a Battlepass is typically cheaper than the cheapest item in a Cosmetics Store/Cash Shop.

Why are you watching a video that claims it takes 100K hours to finish a Battlepass as if it's anything beyond clickbait farce??

Child Item