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Constant / Excessive Jumping, and Mitigation
Neurotoxin
Member, Alpha One
This is NOT a request to get rid of jumping, let me start there for the tl;dr audience! Jumping is a vital part of the gameplay experience in Ashes of Creation!
I recognize that there is an existing thread on the jumping subject, however I'm trying to approach it from a bit of a different angle and with more thoughts going into it. Here's that discussion, for reference: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/59522/bunny-hopping
I started this discussion on Reddit, and after analyzing the responses, I've changed the wording just a bit. This is meant to be a discussion, and I'd like to hear everyone's feedback. If you don't like my examples, offer some of your own, or even offer an argument for why excessive jumping / "bunny hopping" isn't an issue.
The recent gameplay demonstration has showed that there's some desire or utility to excessive jumping in gameplay. Whether it affects targeting and melee ranges, acts like ADADAD in old FPS games where the player looks like they're all over the place and tough to target, or is just really annoying, it seems to be something that doesn't fit the overall flow of combat and the style of the game in general. Since it has come up, I am thinking of a few ways that it could be mitigated or even punished, as well as some that have been brought up already. I'm eager to know what everyone would like to see!
Cooldown - Can't jump until X time after last jump, or X time after landing.
* * PRO: Can't just keep jumping.
* * CON: Platforming and climbing will be impacted and saving oneself from a dangerous edge might be much harder.
* * ALT: Only implement this when someone is in combat. Free jumping at all other times!
Stamina - Jumping consumes X stamina. This means it would share the same resource as non-mana abilities, dodge, and block. To this extent, jumping would need to be assessed as another form of defense, and be treated in a special manner for it. This could be a way to reduce ground-based AoE effects if a player can time a jump better than they can try to get out of the area, but non-ground volumes like ball of lightning would be unaffected (maybe even MORE effective?)
* * PRO: creates an additional manner for players to engage in defense, using the shared stamina resource as the limiter.
* * CON: It may effectively add nothing or make balance and fine tuning even more challenging to deal with another layer of defense, as well as creating skills and augments to support it.
* * ALT: Jumping reduces max stamina temporarily, until stamina has been restored to the reduced maximum and can fill back in after. This means a couple jumps might not be an issue, but excessive jumping will mean needing to retreat and refill more frequently since the stamina pool will keep getting slammed.
Defenselessness - Jumping mitigates some portion of defense while hit midair, which may only last a short time (.25 sec or til they land, whichever happens first). This may include equipment-specific defense, natural attribute specific defense, debuff prevention, or any other number of penalties. Skills that put the player airborne are not affected, so a leaping attack wouldn't be affected.
* * PRO: Excessive jumping is punished, but if you're slow-falling down a cliff, your defense will kick back on pretty quickly after making the jump.
* * CON: Encounters where player have to jump to survive will need to be tuned to consider the jump penalty.
* * ALT: Being hit in the air causes an "Unbalanced" debuff that reduces their defenses some amount while it wears down and balance is reestablished.
Invisible Enemy Buff - It isn't projected to everyone's UI, but every time a player jumps, they add a +5% stack to anyone within a certain radius. The first hit on that player by anyone with a stack will consume that stack and deal the stack's percentage in increased damage for that hit. There may be a limit to the size of the stack and how long it lasts.
* * PRO: It quietly adds a penalty for excessive jumping, but not one that is obvious. Players focusing on that target will be able to detect it happening more than others, but anyone can make it count if they turn and aim at the frequent jumper.
* * CON: It would be less obvious as a thing to exploit, and if it is an unreported value, it is tough for players to know they can rely on it.
* * ALT: Instead of an invisible buff, it could be a visible debuff on the target, and anyone can hit the frequent jumper to utilize the diminishing stacks of being "unbalanced" from the jumps.
Nothing At All - Let players jump to their heart's content. If it doesn't affect position detection, targeting, combat engagement range, or anything else, just let it be.
* * PRO: The team probably doesn't have to do anything special in general.
* * CON: The team better make everything so incredibly consistent that there is no room for exploitation. This may be very tricky to accomplish. Everything has to be based on cones with height distance checks, never on spheres. Weapons need to connect even if the weapon swung below where the target model is at, otherwise people can jump over melee attacks and gain a defensive advantage.
That said, these are just examples, suggestions. If you have your own suggestions, think any or all of these could be implemented as written or with other modifications, or have other thoughts on the purpose/limits of excessive jumping, I'm eager to hear everyone's suggestions on the subject!
inb4grogs: Bunny hopping does go back to early FPS game in a variety of ways, including as a way to get more movement speed. I am not talking about that, that is likely not a factor here.
I recognize that there is an existing thread on the jumping subject, however I'm trying to approach it from a bit of a different angle and with more thoughts going into it. Here's that discussion, for reference: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/59522/bunny-hopping
I started this discussion on Reddit, and after analyzing the responses, I've changed the wording just a bit. This is meant to be a discussion, and I'd like to hear everyone's feedback. If you don't like my examples, offer some of your own, or even offer an argument for why excessive jumping / "bunny hopping" isn't an issue.
The recent gameplay demonstration has showed that there's some desire or utility to excessive jumping in gameplay. Whether it affects targeting and melee ranges, acts like ADADAD in old FPS games where the player looks like they're all over the place and tough to target, or is just really annoying, it seems to be something that doesn't fit the overall flow of combat and the style of the game in general. Since it has come up, I am thinking of a few ways that it could be mitigated or even punished, as well as some that have been brought up already. I'm eager to know what everyone would like to see!
Cooldown - Can't jump until X time after last jump, or X time after landing.
* * PRO: Can't just keep jumping.
* * CON: Platforming and climbing will be impacted and saving oneself from a dangerous edge might be much harder.
* * ALT: Only implement this when someone is in combat. Free jumping at all other times!
Stamina - Jumping consumes X stamina. This means it would share the same resource as non-mana abilities, dodge, and block. To this extent, jumping would need to be assessed as another form of defense, and be treated in a special manner for it. This could be a way to reduce ground-based AoE effects if a player can time a jump better than they can try to get out of the area, but non-ground volumes like ball of lightning would be unaffected (maybe even MORE effective?)
* * PRO: creates an additional manner for players to engage in defense, using the shared stamina resource as the limiter.
* * CON: It may effectively add nothing or make balance and fine tuning even more challenging to deal with another layer of defense, as well as creating skills and augments to support it.
* * ALT: Jumping reduces max stamina temporarily, until stamina has been restored to the reduced maximum and can fill back in after. This means a couple jumps might not be an issue, but excessive jumping will mean needing to retreat and refill more frequently since the stamina pool will keep getting slammed.
Defenselessness - Jumping mitigates some portion of defense while hit midair, which may only last a short time (.25 sec or til they land, whichever happens first). This may include equipment-specific defense, natural attribute specific defense, debuff prevention, or any other number of penalties. Skills that put the player airborne are not affected, so a leaping attack wouldn't be affected.
* * PRO: Excessive jumping is punished, but if you're slow-falling down a cliff, your defense will kick back on pretty quickly after making the jump.
* * CON: Encounters where player have to jump to survive will need to be tuned to consider the jump penalty.
* * ALT: Being hit in the air causes an "Unbalanced" debuff that reduces their defenses some amount while it wears down and balance is reestablished.
Invisible Enemy Buff - It isn't projected to everyone's UI, but every time a player jumps, they add a +5% stack to anyone within a certain radius. The first hit on that player by anyone with a stack will consume that stack and deal the stack's percentage in increased damage for that hit. There may be a limit to the size of the stack and how long it lasts.
* * PRO: It quietly adds a penalty for excessive jumping, but not one that is obvious. Players focusing on that target will be able to detect it happening more than others, but anyone can make it count if they turn and aim at the frequent jumper.
* * CON: It would be less obvious as a thing to exploit, and if it is an unreported value, it is tough for players to know they can rely on it.
* * ALT: Instead of an invisible buff, it could be a visible debuff on the target, and anyone can hit the frequent jumper to utilize the diminishing stacks of being "unbalanced" from the jumps.
Nothing At All - Let players jump to their heart's content. If it doesn't affect position detection, targeting, combat engagement range, or anything else, just let it be.
* * PRO: The team probably doesn't have to do anything special in general.
* * CON: The team better make everything so incredibly consistent that there is no room for exploitation. This may be very tricky to accomplish. Everything has to be based on cones with height distance checks, never on spheres. Weapons need to connect even if the weapon swung below where the target model is at, otherwise people can jump over melee attacks and gain a defensive advantage.
That said, these are just examples, suggestions. If you have your own suggestions, think any or all of these could be implemented as written or with other modifications, or have other thoughts on the purpose/limits of excessive jumping, I'm eager to hear everyone's suggestions on the subject!
inb4grogs: Bunny hopping does go back to early FPS game in a variety of ways, including as a way to get more movement speed. I am not talking about that, that is likely not a factor here.
1
Comments
Personally I would like to see a jump roll implement, I can jump and land afterwards and suffer the temporary MS penalty or I can jump - combat roll (this would have to have a global cooldown for both the roll and ability cast during. Basically the "global" cooldown in this case is just a timer for the animation.)
The only complaint left are people that are salty that they may have to see other people that are having fun jumping around.
Gives me the FPS shooter vibe and really don't care for it in a MMO. That being said it's a new world we live in , and most of these players have grown up with it and it's all they know in their defense.
Wednesday's at 7:00 PM Cst
https://www.youtube.com/@TheHiddenDaggerInn/featured
A chance to get knocked down when hit in the air doesn't sound like the worst thing in the world, I would be ok with that since it's more obvious what's happening than the other punishments you suggested. Obfuscating mechanics that are detrimental to player performance is a big no-no in game design. All it does is cause confusion and frustration.
Ultimately though I would prefer they did nothing. Idly jumping in circles is a favorite pass-time for me.
that goes like :
" Forced into Decency " (lol).
This huge Buff/Debuff/Status-Effect made by the Gods,
enforces that everyone who (for Example) raids your Node in a Siege - > is forced onto the Ground with overwhelmingly Persuasion,
making "Jumping" only possible once every Ten to Fifteen Seconds - > the exact Number of Seconds everytime is decided by a random Number Generator.
Effectively reducing Monkey/Bunny-jumping to a Degree that makes huge Mass Battle looks more decent again, instead of it being a Mass Battle on Planet of the Apes.
( No Monkey- or Bunny-Jumpers were hurt in the Progress of this Comment. )
( In Case of Doubt - quickly contact your Hotline 0815-Hold-my-Tears, for Treatment. )
( Let us overcome our Trauma together. These Bigots can not stop our jumping. )
Amen.
Or Fighters in full Plate Armor doing FAAAR Jumps combined with a mighty Attack when they land.
The World of the Essence is full of Wonders.
AoC is not a survival game anyway, why people keep asking for stuff that belongs to survival games
It’s the people constantly trying to take the fun out of this game to trade it for slightly more “realism” 🤦🏻♂️
The Karens of the forums
This. At this point you have just made the same thread all over again. No ty.
Who cares if you think it looks dumb?
If other people are having fun doing it, you have no say in the matter.
A great looking world is great - but the world only exists for people to have fun in. If people have fun jumping around, then not allowing that fun to happen is a waste of that great game world.
If seeing that is ruining your fun (and wow would that say a lot about you), then what you want to do is find a game that is aiming for realism. As a hint - anything with a fantasy setting probably isn't aiming for realism.
Much love
but that's his point. doesn't matter if it looks dumb. people here are trying to force others to play in a certain way for no reason other that "I don't like it".
next, they will try to restrict emotes too. put a stamina cost to emotes!
You might as well bring the stuffertons in, neon bright pink dyes for armors and weapons, modern cosmetics. Let ppl do whatever they want.
How much hyperbole would we like to attach to your illogical rebuttals?
🤣