Designing the Rogue to be less about stealth
Nerror
Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
I really don't want stealth to be the primary mechanic for rogues, nor their defining class identity. I think it cheapens the class and makes for a very myopic style of gameplay. By stealth, I mean going invisible or nearly invisible with the click of a button.
I would like to see rogues be useful and desired in group and raid play in both PvE and PvP because of their main class identity and primary skills, and stealth isn't it. I don't want it to be just for high DPS either, because then other classes can fill that role as well. It should be something rogues do better than anyone else, that isn't stealth or DPS.
A rogue is typically a dishonest, knavish, mischievous, or unprincipled person. A scoundrel. It can also mean someone who is aberrant or unpredictable.
Rogues can be dirty fighters and tricksters, using smoke bombs, flashbangs, or throwing sand in their enemies' eyes. They can focus on poisons and bleeding their targets by hitting arteries. They can focus on speed and agility or on slowing and hindering enemies with debilitating debuffs. They can disarm traps and find hidden doors and other utility skills.
I'm not saying rogues should have zero stealth, but it should be one of several tools, only situationally useful, and definitely not allow complete invisibility for more than a few seconds at a time, whether as a getaway tool or as a gap-closing mechanic against an unsuspecting target.
Here are some examples of interesting rogues from other games relevant to Ashes, like D&D and Pathfinder:
In single-player games or pen & paper RPGs, stealth can be amazing for fun gameplay and problem-solving. However, MMORPGs are generally very combat-oriented when it comes to solving problems or conflicts. Especially for group PvE content, stealth is often not super useful.
In DAoC, rogue-style classes had strong invisibility and were often not part of regular groups because so much relied on attacking from stealth. Instead, they often ran around in their own stealth groups and had an almost separate gameplay loop, fighting other stealthers at the milegates and such.
Rogues in WoW have permanent invisibility too, but the only reason they are generally wanted in groups and raids is their high DPS when specced for it, not for their stealth.
There are many more games with examples, but this post is already long enough.
I know some of you love stealth and being able to just go around creeping on everyone else. I enjoy it as well at times, but I have yet to see an MMORPG where a strong stealth mechanic improves the overall game more than it detracts from it.
I would like to see rogues be useful and desired in group and raid play in both PvE and PvP because of their main class identity and primary skills, and stealth isn't it. I don't want it to be just for high DPS either, because then other classes can fill that role as well. It should be something rogues do better than anyone else, that isn't stealth or DPS.
A rogue is typically a dishonest, knavish, mischievous, or unprincipled person. A scoundrel. It can also mean someone who is aberrant or unpredictable.
Rogues can be dirty fighters and tricksters, using smoke bombs, flashbangs, or throwing sand in their enemies' eyes. They can focus on poisons and bleeding their targets by hitting arteries. They can focus on speed and agility or on slowing and hindering enemies with debilitating debuffs. They can disarm traps and find hidden doors and other utility skills.
I'm not saying rogues should have zero stealth, but it should be one of several tools, only situationally useful, and definitely not allow complete invisibility for more than a few seconds at a time, whether as a getaway tool or as a gap-closing mechanic against an unsuspecting target.
Here are some examples of interesting rogues from other games relevant to Ashes, like D&D and Pathfinder:
- Swashbuckler: A charismatic and flashy combatant who excels in one-on-one duels and acrobatics, emphasizing mobility and melee combat prowess rather than stealth.
- Arcane Trickster: Blends rogue abilities with spellcasting, using illusion and enchantment magic to deceive and manipulate rather than relying solely on stealth.
- Knife Master: Excels in close combat, dealing devastating damage with chosen weapons rather than focusing on stealth, emphasizing skill with knives and precision strikes.
- Eldritch Scoundrel: Combines rogue skills with arcane spellcasting, using magic to enhance their abilities and gain an edge in combat, focusing on using spells to support rogue activities.
- Dungeon Delver: A prestige class focusing on exploration and trap-finding, making rogues experts in navigating and surviving dangerous environments without necessarily relying on stealth.
- Artful Dodger: Emphasizes charisma and agility, focusing on outmaneuvering opponents and avoiding damage rather than traditional stealth tactics.
In single-player games or pen & paper RPGs, stealth can be amazing for fun gameplay and problem-solving. However, MMORPGs are generally very combat-oriented when it comes to solving problems or conflicts. Especially for group PvE content, stealth is often not super useful.
In DAoC, rogue-style classes had strong invisibility and were often not part of regular groups because so much relied on attacking from stealth. Instead, they often ran around in their own stealth groups and had an almost separate gameplay loop, fighting other stealthers at the milegates and such.
Rogues in WoW have permanent invisibility too, but the only reason they are generally wanted in groups and raids is their high DPS when specced for it, not for their stealth.
There are many more games with examples, but this post is already long enough.
I know some of you love stealth and being able to just go around creeping on everyone else. I enjoy it as well at times, but I have yet to see an MMORPG where a strong stealth mechanic improves the overall game more than it detracts from it.
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Comments
In a game where "risk vs reward" is the main pillar, perma stealth eliminates alot of risk. Hard for the game devs to balance around.
Activated/time limited stealth is likely a better option overall.
I'll try making myself make a video for it, after making myself make the Bard lesson
or
have perma stealth time but not full stealth, that way you can sit somewhere in ambush but its gonna be somewhat noticeable / obvious theres a rogue sitting there.
WoW's full stealth but when close become visible mechanic is good in theory but 90% of the time its that iffy you can have a rogue near you and it wont detect em anyway
Rogues should not get permanent stealth.
Well said, thanks.
My hope is that Ashes has more options for rogue-minded players to solve problems beyond invis stabby stabby.
That said, I’m 100% in favor of perma stealth for rogues, as long as it’s an investment and a choice, instead of a gimme.
I've played characters with limited time for stealth. Jedi Sentinel in SWTOR and Witch Hunter in WAR. Worked well in both games. If I remember right, in both cases it was a fixed max time in stealth that would break if you attacked. AoC could do the same, or have stealth constantly draining mana, thus forcing the player to balance invisibility time with combat resource.
why did twitch ban you?
a specific channel or the whole website?
USA owning internet's culture has been a curse upon this world.
YES! I've tried to make this point before. I think it should be more of a CC-archetype, rather than a Hidey-Hidey archetype.
Yeah, heavy on the CC or debuff is my hope too.
Hopefully the shimmer is more effective in certain weather and light conditions, or against certain backgrounds, giving near total invisibility there. Or hopefully you shimmer while moving and are totally invisible when holding still.
Hide In Plain Sight: A Rogue with this talent can select a single terrain from the ranger's favored terrain list. She is a master at hiding in that terrain, and while within that terrain, she can use the Stealth skill to hide, even while being observed.
EDIT: I think it's confusion from videos, I see what you are saying based on the Wiki:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Camouflage
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Stealth
Bottom line I guess it does look like the rogue has true invisibility -- and I think that's fine if implemented well.
My confusion stems from videos with the shimmering called "rogue" videos:
Also, I think Camo is the only Stealth that has been demoed so far.
In APOC it was also a timed thing with cooldown, as you can see. What the current plan for Rogue stealth is is anyone's guess (who aren't in Intrepid), of course.
Back in APOC it was also true stealth in the sense that visibility didn't change based on proximity like camouflage does, I think, but it was obviously a little visible.
Just bear in mind that those aren't official videos, and may not be giving correct info.
tbh the only one tjhat should have perma stealth would be like rogue/rogue archtype the rest should never have perma stealth, this would atleast give an option for perma stealth however it shouldnt be true stealth there should be hint somone there be it grass/plants moving based on player movement and so on
I'd like to pitch the opposite of everything OP said. Give me permastealth.
full on invisibility like WoW rogues just feels.