Yeah, the more I think about it, the more extreme the outcomes can be for the rogue: it will either be a fun, sophisticated class, or it will be a dull, cardboard shadow of WoW rogues.
to be fair, I have reworked WoW rogues to be incredibly fun. I even made an evasion tank rogue specialization that worked very well. That being said I was purely a design guy and never a coding guy, so I give more props to the guys who were able to make my designs happen.
Also just to throw it out there. Saying rogues shouldn't have a focus on stealth is like saying tanks shouldn't have heavy defense abilities, or that mages shouldn't have magic missile etc. Its a defining class trait in MMORPGs
Also just to throw it out there. Saying rogues shouldn't have a focus on stealth is like saying tanks shouldn't have heavy defense abilities, or that mages shouldn't have magic missile etc. Its a defining class trait in MMORPGs
but arent those 2 different thing? defense abilities and magic missiles are something easily accounted for since you see the mage beforehand and know the abilities range. So you have some action to counter it. Being engaged on and opened anywhere at anytime with pretty much no counterplay is totally different.
yeah you can give them a counter but how would that look like? in a small setting like arena the hunter flare would work but even then its randomly guessing where the rogue might go and hope you hit it in range. hardly a fair counter if he can just sit in a corner somewhere for 3min until everyone gets bored trying to fish him out?
Also just to throw it out there. Saying rogues shouldn't have a focus on stealth is like saying tanks shouldn't have heavy defense abilities, or that mages shouldn't have magic missile etc. Its a defining class trait in MMORPGs
but arent those 2 different thing? defense abilities and magic missiles are something easily accounted for since you see the mage beforehand and know the abilities range. So you have some action to counter it. Being engaged on and opened anywhere at anytime with pretty much no counterplay is totally different.
yeah you can give them a counter but how would that look like? in a small setting like arena the hunter flare would work but even then its randomly guessing where the rogue might go and hope you hit it in range. hardly a fair counter if he can just sit in a corner somewhere for 3min until everyone gets bored trying to fish him out?
The way I went about it was stealth focused specialization for rogue focused more on poisons and CCs, faster stealth movement, escapes, and greater stealth . They were capable of high dps but less bursty than the other specialization which only relied on a lesser stealth as an opener, and then went toe to toe with whoever they were fighting, focused more of burst damage and bleeds, and less cc but slightly more survivability.
The issue you're concerned with revolves entirely around balancing all classes. And the balance for rogues striking first and hard is generally sacrificing their durability and limiting their range. I am a firm believer in counters and think squishy players are a focus for rogues, while heavy armor classes should make rogues terrified.
Rogue stealth was one of the coolest abilities in a mass multiplayer, such a silly idea taking away the core and fundamentals of being a rogue out of the class
So basically you’re taking a set-up style class (perhaps one of the biggest set up classes) and trying to make it a brain dead melee with different abilities? May aswell pick Fighter lol. Rogue is always around stealth and its core abilities play off how the Rogue breaks stealth, sneaks in, or makes a play on an unsuspecting victim. As it always has been.
I really don't want stealth to be the primary mechanic for rogues, nor their defining class identity. I think it cheapens the class and makes for a very myopic style of gameplay. By stealth, I mean going invisible or nearly invisible with the click of a button.
I would like to see rogues be useful and desired in group and raid play in both PvE and PvP because of their main class identity and primary skills, and stealth isn't it. I don't want it to be just for high DPS either, because then other classes can fill that role as well. It should be something rogues do better than anyone else, that isn't stealth or DPS.
A rogue is typically a dishonest, knavish, mischievous, or unprincipled person. A scoundrel. It can also mean someone who is aberrant or unpredictable.
Rogues can be dirty fighters and tricksters, using smoke bombs, flashbangs, or throwing sand in their enemies' eyes. They can focus on poisons and bleeding their targets by hitting arteries. They can focus on speed and agility or on slowing and hindering enemies with debilitating debuffs. They can disarm traps and find hidden doors and other utility skills.
I'm not saying rogues should have zero stealth, but it should be one of several tools, only situationally useful, and definitely not allow complete invisibility for more than a few seconds at a time, whether as a getaway tool or as a gap-closing mechanic against an unsuspecting target.
Here are some examples of interesting rogues from other games relevant to Ashes, like D&D and Pathfinder:
Swashbuckler: A charismatic and flashy combatant who excels in one-on-one duels and acrobatics, emphasizing mobility and melee combat prowess rather than stealth.
Arcane Trickster: Blends rogue abilities with spellcasting, using illusion and enchantment magic to deceive and manipulate rather than relying solely on stealth.
Knife Master: Excels in close combat, dealing devastating damage with chosen weapons rather than focusing on stealth, emphasizing skill with knives and precision strikes.
Eldritch Scoundrel: Combines rogue skills with arcane spellcasting, using magic to enhance their abilities and gain an edge in combat, focusing on using spells to support rogue activities.
Dungeon Delver: A prestige class focusing on exploration and trap-finding, making rogues experts in navigating and surviving dangerous environments without necessarily relying on stealth.
Artful Dodger: Emphasizes charisma and agility, focusing on outmaneuvering opponents and avoiding damage rather than traditional stealth tactics.
In single-player games or pen & paper RPGs, stealth can be amazing for fun gameplay and problem-solving. However, MMORPGs are generally very combat-oriented when it comes to solving problems or conflicts. Especially for group PvE content, stealth is often not super useful.
In DAoC, rogue-style classes had strong invisibility and were often not part of regular groups because so much relied on attacking from stealth. Instead, they often ran around in their own stealth groups and had an almost separate gameplay loop, fighting other stealthers at the milegates and such.
Rogues in WoW have permanent invisibility too, but the only reason they are generally wanted in groups and raids is their high DPS when specced for it, not for their stealth.
There are many more games with examples, but this post is already long enough.
I know some of you love stealth and being able to just go around creeping on everyone else. I enjoy it as well at times, but I have yet to see an MMORPG where a strong stealth mechanic improves the overall game more than it detracts from it.
but rogues are about high damage and stealth, even those dnd classes you mentioned are
if you start removing those things, the rogue becomes a warrior.
So you are forced to engage powerfully once and then do the rest of a battle out of stealth.
Problem is : in for Example Worst of Warcraft -> you get "forced out of Stealth" already the MOMENT you are in like +30 Meters away from an Enemy Raid. It is like there is a Torrent of Violence and Chaos around the People that automatically flags all Stealth Characters and makes them visible.
When not even clear AoE's are around, or Flares of Hunters. It was the worst during Whorelords of Draenor on Ashran Island.
And only People who have like +2 to +3 ways to enter Stealth immediately can use Stealth "SOMEWHAT" to come close and engage into the Battle without being exposed before they even landed a single Strike. x'D
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✗ Not looking for a guild atm
Also just to throw it out there. Saying rogues shouldn't have a focus on stealth is like saying tanks shouldn't have heavy defense abilities, or that mages shouldn't have magic missile etc. Its a defining class trait in MMORPGs
but arent those 2 different thing? defense abilities and magic missiles are something easily accounted for since you see the mage beforehand and know the abilities range. So you have some action to counter it. Being engaged on and opened anywhere at anytime with pretty much no counterplay is totally different.
yeah you can give them a counter but how would that look like? in a small setting like arena the hunter flare would work but even then its randomly guessing where the rogue might go and hope you hit it in range. hardly a fair counter if he can just sit in a corner somewhere for 3min until everyone gets bored trying to fish him out?
The way I went about it was stealth focused specialization for rogue focused more on poisons and CCs, faster stealth movement, escapes, and greater stealth . They were capable of high dps but less bursty than the other specialization which only relied on a lesser stealth as an opener, and then went toe to toe with whoever they were fighting, focused more of burst damage and bleeds, and less cc but slightly more survivability.
The issue you're concerned with revolves entirely around balancing all classes. And the balance for rogues striking first and hard is generally sacrificing their durability and limiting their range. I am a firm believer in counters and think squishy players are a focus for rogues, while heavy armor classes should make rogues terrified.
Yeah, i agree with the counter approach and that certain classes should be having a hard time against one class and easier against others. That being said, even if they sacrifice durability and range, if you give them too much utilities then that hardly matters (old-school rogues come to mind). Im not saying take away stealth. Im saying make stealth work differently that rogues at least have to use some sort of skill, knowledge and observation on how to move to stay undetected. What would you do to make stealth less annoying to play against? What counters would you implement that are actually counters? (Flare removing stealth i dont count since you need predictable skills to land it near the rogue, not even close to even)
The difference between the thief and warrior was never just about stealth vs non-stealth. It's more often about doing death by a thousand cuts and having a diverse toolkit to respond to different situations vs big weapon goes boom and wearing armor to survive.
I'm not normally a rogue guy. (I did play feral most of my WoW life, which is like a hybrid rogue.) But I think rogue builds have a lot of potential to be intriguing in this game. I mean, there's going to literally be a way to play as a fire-and-ice Nightspell.
Also just to throw it out there. Saying rogues shouldn't have a focus on stealth is like saying tanks shouldn't have heavy defense abilities, or that mages shouldn't have magic missile etc. Its a defining class trait in MMORPGs
but arent those 2 different thing? defense abilities and magic missiles are something easily accounted for since you see the mage beforehand and know the abilities range. So you have some action to counter it. Being engaged on and opened anywhere at anytime with pretty much no counterplay is totally different.
yeah you can give them a counter but how would that look like? in a small setting like arena the hunter flare would work but even then its randomly guessing where the rogue might go and hope you hit it in range. hardly a fair counter if he can just sit in a corner somewhere for 3min until everyone gets bored trying to fish him out?
The way I went about it was stealth focused specialization for rogue focused more on poisons and CCs, faster stealth movement, escapes, and greater stealth . They were capable of high dps but less bursty than the other specialization which only relied on a lesser stealth as an opener, and then went toe to toe with whoever they were fighting, focused more of burst damage and bleeds, and less cc but slightly more survivability.
The issue you're concerned with revolves entirely around balancing all classes. And the balance for rogues striking first and hard is generally sacrificing their durability and limiting their range. I am a firm believer in counters and think squishy players are a focus for rogues, while heavy armor classes should make rogues terrified.
Yeah, i agree with the counter approach and that certain classes should be having a hard time against one class and easier against others. That being said, even if they sacrifice durability and range, if you give them too much utilities then that hardly matters (old-school rogues come to mind). Im not saying take away stealth. Im saying make stealth work differently that rogues at least have to use some sort of skill, knowledge and observation on how to move to stay undetected. What would you do to make stealth less annoying to play against? What counters would you implement that are actually counters? (Flare removing stealth i dont count since you need predictable skills to land it near the rogue, not even close to even)
I mean other than traditionally blasting AoE, popping defense abilities, using escape abilities, or using stealth detection abilities?
I feel like everyone hates rogues, and rightly so since they were designed to be a nuisance. But if people look back who really played a lot of PvP, you'd realize they died just as much as any other class did.
But to answer you as best as i could, I'd simply fine tune and balance all of those previous types of counters, as well as stealth and the rogues abilities. It's hard to just say I'd do this this and that without a lot of info on every class and their abilities/gameplay.
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to be fair, I have reworked WoW rogues to be incredibly fun. I even made an evasion tank rogue specialization that worked very well. That being said I was purely a design guy and never a coding guy, so I give more props to the guys who were able to make my designs happen.
but arent those 2 different thing? defense abilities and magic missiles are something easily accounted for since you see the mage beforehand and know the abilities range. So you have some action to counter it. Being engaged on and opened anywhere at anytime with pretty much no counterplay is totally different.
yeah you can give them a counter but how would that look like? in a small setting like arena the hunter flare would work but even then its randomly guessing where the rogue might go and hope you hit it in range. hardly a fair counter if he can just sit in a corner somewhere for 3min until everyone gets bored trying to fish him out?
The way I went about it was stealth focused specialization for rogue focused more on poisons and CCs, faster stealth movement, escapes, and greater stealth . They were capable of high dps but less bursty than the other specialization which only relied on a lesser stealth as an opener, and then went toe to toe with whoever they were fighting, focused more of burst damage and bleeds, and less cc but slightly more survivability.
The issue you're concerned with revolves entirely around balancing all classes. And the balance for rogues striking first and hard is generally sacrificing their durability and limiting their range. I am a firm believer in counters and think squishy players are a focus for rogues, while heavy armor classes should make rogues terrified.
but rogues are about high damage and stealth, even those dnd classes you mentioned are
if you start removing those things, the rogue becomes a warrior.
Problem is : in for Example Worst of Warcraft -> you get "forced out of Stealth" already the MOMENT you are in like +30 Meters away from an Enemy Raid. It is like there is a Torrent of Violence and Chaos around the People that automatically flags all Stealth Characters and makes them visible.
When not even clear AoE's are around, or Flares of Hunters. It was the worst during Whorelords of Draenor on Ashran Island.
And only People who have like +2 to +3 ways to enter Stealth immediately can use Stealth "SOMEWHAT" to come close and engage into the Battle without being exposed before they even landed a single Strike. x'D
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✗ Not looking for a guild atm
Yeah, i agree with the counter approach and that certain classes should be having a hard time against one class and easier against others. That being said, even if they sacrifice durability and range, if you give them too much utilities then that hardly matters (old-school rogues come to mind). Im not saying take away stealth. Im saying make stealth work differently that rogues at least have to use some sort of skill, knowledge and observation on how to move to stay undetected. What would you do to make stealth less annoying to play against? What counters would you implement that are actually counters? (Flare removing stealth i dont count since you need predictable skills to land it near the rogue, not even close to even)
I'm not normally a rogue guy. (I did play feral most of my WoW life, which is like a hybrid rogue.) But I think rogue builds have a lot of potential to be intriguing in this game. I mean, there's going to literally be a way to play as a fire-and-ice Nightspell.
I mean other than traditionally blasting AoE, popping defense abilities, using escape abilities, or using stealth detection abilities?
I feel like everyone hates rogues, and rightly so since they were designed to be a nuisance. But if people look back who really played a lot of PvP, you'd realize they died just as much as any other class did.
But to answer you as best as i could, I'd simply fine tune and balance all of those previous types of counters, as well as stealth and the rogues abilities. It's hard to just say I'd do this this and that without a lot of info on every class and their abilities/gameplay.