Ranged Mobs: Impossible to Counter if you are in their attack range

How do you guys feel about the current fight mechanic which the current ranged attack mobs have it implemented?.
Currently any mob in the world which is using a ranged attack: spell, throwing spears, arrows, etc, will auto lock on you , no matter if you strafe or try to avoid their direction of attack by moving fast around.
I think this is a little silly for 2024 being forced to just embrace their incoming attack, no matter how good your hero movement is.
Is this how you guys want?, to be just statues in front of mobs and let the stats dictate our fate?.
For pvp it might be a different story, but for pve mobs, this makes no sense. Is like going back to the old click to move, let the mob hit you, and just click skills on the skillbar...

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Apok

Actual dodging would be rough to implement in an MMO in my opinion. they would need to work with iframes which I actually prefer. When tanking in new world you could iframe and active block I would get to know fights and would balance myself out by iframing really hard hits that did both high HP or high stamina damage. multiattacks were usually face tanked and anything else I would active guard sometimes I face tank instead of the other two because the stamina damage would break my block and leave me vulnerable and also allowed me to use my passive cooldowns like take less damage at full health with a cooldown on it.

when it came to PvP you didn't just watch HP bars you had to watch stamina too. if you blew your cooldowns and the other player had enough stamina you wasted your cooldowns. A lot of fights depending on the type of person you are and who you face off with will have you dancing around and striking when you have the opportunity.

one thing that does really suck about active combat is the people who cheat. Aim bots will be a thing and I'm not positive but it felt like people also have roll assist as well. often times I would come up behind a player who would be focused on enemies in front of him and the guy would dodge me while using a fast gap closer on him while he stayed focused on the people in front of him. Can't say for certain these people cheat but something felt sketchy as hell as I put thousands of hours into the game

Noaani

Caeryl wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Syblitrh wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Syblitrh wrote: »

I think this is a little silly for 2024 being forced to just embrace their incoming attack, no matter how good your hero movement is.

Movement shouldn't be what you use to avoid an incoming attack - that is what abilities like the tanks "reflect" ability are for.

i don't think you see my point, but ok

Let's find out.

Your point, as I see it, is that you think players should be able to use regular character movement to dodge attacks.

My point is that this isn't what regular character movement is for. The game provides specific activated abilities to perform this specific function.

'You don't use movement to dodge' has to be one of the funnier things to come out of a person's keyboard

Not only do you not use movement to dodge, you don't use dodge to move.

Is the notion of a dodge ability that foreign to you?

The notion that moving can cause an attack to miss in a game with tab target mechanics is absolutely off the charts in terms of naivety.

WarRath

Ashes is not an action based MMO; therefore, if you want to play an action MMO I may suggest NW

Apok

Noaani wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Syblitrh wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Syblitrh wrote: »

I think this is a little silly for 2024 being forced to just embrace their incoming attack, no matter how good your hero movement is.

Movement shouldn't be what you use to avoid an incoming attack - that is what abilities like the tanks "reflect" ability are for.

i don't think you see my point, but ok

Let's find out.

Your point, as I see it, is that you think players should be able to use regular character movement to dodge attacks.

My point is that this isn't what regular character movement is for. The game provides specific activated abilities to perform this specific function.

'You don't use movement to dodge' has to be one of the funnier things to come out of a person's keyboard

Not only do you not use movement to dodge, you don't use dodge to move.

Is the notion of a dodge ability that foreign to you?

The notion that moving can cause an attack to miss in a game with tab target mechanics is absolutely off the charts in terms of naivety.

that is determined by if the what you're dealing with is hitscan or projectile, older MMOs relied on hitscan but modern technology can use projectiles which changes things

WarRath wrote: »

Ashes is not an action based MMO; therefore, if you want to play an action MMO I may suggest NW

then what is it a farming simulator?

Noaani

Apok wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Syblitrh wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Syblitrh wrote: »

I think this is a little silly for 2024 being forced to just embrace their incoming attack, no matter how good your hero movement is.

Movement shouldn't be what you use to avoid an incoming attack - that is what abilities like the tanks "reflect" ability are for.

i don't think you see my point, but ok

Let's find out.

Your point, as I see it, is that you think players should be able to use regular character movement to dodge attacks.

My point is that this isn't what regular character movement is for. The game provides specific activated abilities to perform this specific function.

'You don't use movement to dodge' has to be one of the funnier things to come out of a person's keyboard

Not only do you not use movement to dodge, you don't use dodge to move.

Is the notion of a dodge ability that foreign to you?

The notion that moving can cause an attack to miss in a game with tab target mechanics is absolutely off the charts in terms of naivety.

that is determined by if the what you're dealing with is hitscan or projectile, older MMOs relied on hitscan but modern technology can use projectiles which changes things

I wasn't talking about from a technological perspective.

I'm talking about a gameplay perspective.

Tab target systems don't give me the ability to predict your movement or anything. I can cast a spell or fire an arrow "at you", and that is it. If you can just move to get out of it's way, it makes you invulnerable to single point ranged attacks in a tab target system as long as you are moving.

Apok

Noaani wrote: »

Apok wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Syblitrh wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Syblitrh wrote: »

I think this is a little silly for 2024 being forced to just embrace their incoming attack, no matter how good your hero movement is.

Movement shouldn't be what you use to avoid an incoming attack - that is what abilities like the tanks "reflect" ability are for.

i don't think you see my point, but ok

Let's find out.

Your point, as I see it, is that you think players should be able to use regular character movement to dodge attacks.

My point is that this isn't what regular character movement is for. The game provides specific activated abilities to perform this specific function.

'You don't use movement to dodge' has to be one of the funnier things to come out of a person's keyboard

Not only do you not use movement to dodge, you don't use dodge to move.

Is the notion of a dodge ability that foreign to you?

The notion that moving can cause an attack to miss in a game with tab target mechanics is absolutely off the charts in terms of naivety.

that is determined by if the what you're dealing with is hitscan or projectile, older MMOs relied on hitscan but modern technology can use projectiles which changes things

I wasn't talking about from a technological perspective.

I'm talking about a gameplay perspective.

Tab target systems don't give me the ability to predict your movement or anything. I can cast a spell or fire an arrow "at you", and that is it. If you can just move to get out of it's way, it makes you invulnerable to single point ranged attacks in a tab target system as long as you are moving.

there's no logic in your thinking, you're acting like if you can dodge an arrow everyone will dodge every arrow. they could just make side stepping and dodging take up stamina also the person would have to be quick enough. if the target is running left to right or vice versa then you would need to take off tab target and lead your shot.

I think the problem is a lot of you don't want to get good you want to cheese the game using archaic systems

Noaani

Apok wrote: »

they could just make side stepping and dodging take up stamina also the person would have to be quick enough.

And you now have - functionally, at least - a dodge ability.

The concept of neeing to take off tab target in order to hit a moving target is a non-starter.

Edit to add; I'm fairly sure it was very early 2019 when I first mentioned that defense is the single biggest issue in trying to combine tab and action combat. You can't have a system where someone using a tab target ability is able to have that shot not hit due to an action combat defense, but you also can't have a situation where an action combat attack hits the target, but due to the target having a high dodge or block stat, isn't registered as a hit.

The two don't work together, and I don't have an solution for it.

Ruerik

Can't say I agree with a lot that was said here.

Sure, lots of ranged attacks should hit their target, and not be dodge-able. Such as the case of a fast moving projectile like an arrow or single target magic attacks.

Yet, if there is a ranged ability, that is coming your way, has a visible trajectory and travel time you can track and estimate. You should be able to take 5 steps to get away from it.

These should be the ground target aoe's the enemy has to actually aim at you. We shouldn't really have telegraphs on the ground for everything either, but there should be some skill expression on both sides. On one side the person aiming the skill in your general direction, and the other side the person paying attention to the stuff and moving.

Skill expression in gameplay for people that can watch stuff, and aim skills / move out of the way of them should reward people that don't stare at hotbars like a bot.

And there should not be a generic active dodge that everyone gets. Instead if it makes sense for the job for some quick movement, like a mage with blink.

Some things should be slow enough for you to decide to move out of the way, such as the cool mage lightning ball. And others should be quick, where you either get hit even if you see it, or you use a movement skill to be somewhere else in a hurry.

KingDDD

Basic attacks on mobs guaranteeing damage is fine. As long as mobs have some variety in abilities with player interrupts, cc, burst damage, etc allow for some varied gameplay and uniqueness to different mobs. Actively dodging every single skill in the game is pretty meh. Games like GW2 feel extremely spammy due to the active dodge, ridiculous overall movement, and class design.

Caeryl

Noaani wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Syblitrh wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Syblitrh wrote: »

I think this is a little silly for 2024 being forced to just embrace their incoming attack, no matter how good your hero movement is.

Movement shouldn't be what you use to avoid an incoming attack - that is what abilities like the tanks "reflect" ability are for.

i don't think you see my point, but ok

Let's find out.

Your point, as I see it, is that you think players should be able to use regular character movement to dodge attacks.

My point is that this isn't what regular character movement is for. The game provides specific activated abilities to perform this specific function.

'You don't use movement to dodge' has to be one of the funnier things to come out of a person's keyboard

Not only do you not use movement to dodge, you don't use dodge to move.

I stand corrected. This is the funniest thing to come out of someone's keyboard.

Caeryl

KingDDD wrote: »

Basic attacks on mobs guaranteeing damage is fine. As long as mobs have some variety in abilities with player interrupts, cc, burst damage, etc allow for some varied gameplay and uniqueness to different mobs. Actively dodging every single skill in the game is pretty meh. Games like GW2 feel extremely spammy due to the active dodge, ridiculous overall movement, and class design.

Active dodging tied to resource costs solves that issue. It's a greater opportunity for skill expression having the chance to avoid heavy hits if you time it properly and manage your stamina effectively.

Noaani

Caeryl wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Syblitrh wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Syblitrh wrote: »

I think this is a little silly for 2024 being forced to just embrace their incoming attack, no matter how good your hero movement is.

Movement shouldn't be what you use to avoid an incoming attack - that is what abilities like the tanks "reflect" ability are for.

i don't think you see my point, but ok

Let's find out.

Your point, as I see it, is that you think players should be able to use regular character movement to dodge attacks.

My point is that this isn't what regular character movement is for. The game provides specific activated abilities to perform this specific function.

'You don't use movement to dodge' has to be one of the funnier things to come out of a person's keyboard

Not only do you not use movement to dodge, you don't use dodge to move.

I stand corrected. This is the funniest thing to come out of someone's keyboard.

You can consider it funny if you like. It is, however, inherently true for tab target games.

Diamaht

This isn't designed as a action combat game. You are not using WASD to avoid attacks (besides aoe). This is pretty standard MMO stuff.

I don't think that is going to change at this stage. Not sure that I want it to. Twitchy combat isn't generally what this style of game is about.

Apok

Noaani wrote: »

Apok wrote: »

they could just make side stepping and dodging take up stamina also the person would have to be quick enough.

And you now have - functionally, at least - a dodge ability.

The concept of neeing to take off tab target in order to hit a moving target is a non-starter.

Edit to add; I'm fairly sure it was very early 2019 when I first mentioned that defense is the single biggest issue in trying to combine tab and action combat. You can't have a system where someone using a tab target ability is able to have that shot not hit due to an action combat defense, but you also can't have a situation where an action combat attack hits the target, but due to the target having a high dodge or block stat, isn't registered as a hit.

The two don't work together, and I don't have an solution for it.

100% agree with you there. I don't see how a game could do block/dodge stats in combination with active blocking and dodging. What do you think about an overhaul of how these stats are used. Maybe a higher dodge rating equals less stamina used while dodging and a larger iframe window where your block stat will reduce the amount of stamina damage done while active blocking?

McShave

this is tab targeting. you have abilities to make the range negated. gap closers, cc, your ranged abilities. Go play WoW or another tab game and you will see ranged mobs is not an issue.

Diamaht

Apok wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Apok wrote: »

they could just make side stepping and dodging take up stamina also the person would have to be quick enough.

And you now have - functionally, at least - a dodge ability.

The concept of neeing to take off tab target in order to hit a moving target is a non-starter.

Edit to add; I'm fairly sure it was very early 2019 when I first mentioned that defense is the single biggest issue in trying to combine tab and action combat. You can't have a system where someone using a tab target ability is able to have that shot not hit due to an action combat defense, but you also can't have a situation where an action combat attack hits the target, but due to the target having a high dodge or block stat, isn't registered as a hit.

The two don't work together, and I don't have an solution for it.

100% agree with you there. I don't see how a game could do block/dodge stats in combination with active blocking and dodging. What do you think about an overhaul of how these stats are used. Maybe a higher dodge rating equals less stamina used while dodging and a larger iframe window where your block stat will reduce the amount of stamina damage done while active blocking?

I would pass on all of that. That's action combat. The game will allow some control over placement and area of affect for abilities but it's an expansion of tab target combat.

Dygz

Syblitrh wrote: »

How do you guys feel about the current fight mechanic which the current ranged attack mobs have it implemented?.
Currently any mob in the world which is using a ranged attack: spell, throwing spears, arrows, etc, will auto lock on you , no matter if you strafe or try to avoid their direction of attack by moving fast around.
I think this is a little silly for 2024 being forced to just embrace their incoming attack, no matter how good your hero movement is.
Is this how you guys want?, to be just statues in front of mobs and let the stats dictate our fate?.
For pvp it might be a different story, but for pve mobs, this makes no sense. Is like going back to the old click to move, let the mob hit you, and just click skills on the skillbar...

Ashes is an RPG. If I didn't want my character to be hit by ranged mobs, I would adjust my character's Passive Skills to mitigate Ranged Damage.

Syblitrh

Dygz wrote: »

Syblitrh wrote: »

How do you guys feel about the current fight mechanic which the current ranged attack mobs have it implemented?.
Currently any mob in the world which is using a ranged attack: spell, throwing spears, arrows, etc, will auto lock on you , no matter if you strafe or try to avoid their direction of attack by moving fast around.
I think this is a little silly for 2024 being forced to just embrace their incoming attack, no matter how good your hero movement is.
Is this how you guys want?, to be just statues in front of mobs and let the stats dictate our fate?.
For pvp it might be a different story, but for pve mobs, this makes no sense. Is like going back to the old click to move, let the mob hit you, and just click skills on the skillbar...

Ashes is an RPG. If I didn't want my character to be hit by ranged mobs, I would adjust my character's Passive Skills to mitigate Ranged Damage.

I agree with you as i played rpg's in the past:). Yet, that doesn't mean they have to copy everything like in the past. For example Ball Lightning mage skill doesn't have "homing" follow target, and is just moving in the direction you shoot it. So since there is leeway in some parts, i was hoping that some ranged attacks from mobs would act similar. As someone mentioned " both players and mobs are in-game entities with the same rules", which is not exactly the same, as some of your character skills are not all homing projectiles. Also, just saying " This is pretty standard", or " go play wow or another tab game ", is not exactly the point i want to make here. Anyway, maybe i am just too sensitive when it comes to mechanics and things i want to see in 2024+, as i learned from the past.

Like what happens if a mob shoots an arrow towards you, and if you move to the left or right there is a chance that the homing will loose accuracy, and not hit you. Would this break the game if you potentially consider this approach?, is that bad?. Will it break the turnbase style? "you hit, i hit"?

ps: excuse my broken engrish

Syblitrh

Also take in consideration that ashes being a owpvp game, you might end up in a area with ranged elites, and someone will make sure you aggro more than you can take, and then u will think again about the auto lock on homing projectiles from all the mobs following you.

Ludullu

Syblitrh wrote: »

As someone mentioned " both players and mobs are in-game entities with the same rules", which is not exactly the same, as some of your character skills are not all homing projectiles.

But have you seen every single mob in the game to say that they're not the same "with not all of their attacks being homing projectiles"?

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