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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
The above are what I want out of active defensive options. That's it, all extremely reasonable asks
Not hybrid combat.
That combat is literally what Intrepid are trying to avoid - just as much as they are trying to avoid tab target combat. More actually, since tab target is their stated default if hybrid doesn't work.
Yeah, that's my point. That's playing the UI instead of the game. You should be able to see (no text at all) if the player dodged, or if they're in a blocking/parry stance, or if they're stunned. These need to be communicated in the game space, not just the UI. That's not immersive at all.
Keep your goal posts in one spot. Active dodging, which is ALL we're discussing here right now, is not remotely 'anti-rpg' like you claimed
I didn't say active dodging - I said action combat.
The notion of an RPG is that you are playing the character. The idea is to improve that character, to make that character the best it can be. The more you bring action elements to the fore, the more you push RPG elements to the back.
Yes, some games do this (some genres do this, ARPG's are a thing). However, they exist while doing the above, they are not an exception to the rule.
Why?
You are literally saying that some visual indicator for a stunned character like birds floating around the characters head is less immersion breaking than a word.
If one of these breaks your immersion and the other doesn't, it is because you are letting that be (or willing that to be) the case.
Feel free to explain to me how a game could indicate that a character is stunned in a way that looks real (not immersion breaking in a way that isn't just the person chosing when to be immersed and when to not be), but is also able to communicate that when you are looking at 20 characters on screen at the same time, and you are looking at that character from behind. An actual stunned person has no immediate visual cue that they are stunned - and definately none from behind.
This is why the UI is important - that should be the first place (the only place) you look to for actual information. That is why the UI exists, it can provide you this information in much easier manner (for you, if not for the developers) than if it were represented in game.
It's genuinely odd to me that you can't imagine an indicator outside of being spoon-fed the information as text.
Apply a stagger animation for the duration of the stun. Easily done, no text or 'birds' required. If that's still not obvious enough then apply some swirling visual above the character's head. These are visual indicators for what's going on in the game space, that require paying attention to what's going on in the game space.
If you're regularly looking at your combat log during combat to figure out what's going on, then that combat system was inadequately designed.
First, it is that there is no logical way that text can be immersion breaking, but an animation that looks nothing like the thing it is trying to communicate isn't.
If that is the case for you, it is literally because you are either lettign it be the case, or you are forcing it to be the case.
Second, text is the best means of communication of simple ideas that has ever been devised.
This is something I agree with - I don't have my combat log up in game at all, and only look at my tracker when I have finished with the content piece, or the days play.
The text is in the game first, but there is a permanant record of it in the log for if you need it for what ever reason. This is why I mentioned the log. It's a log, it's function should be obvious (it is a chronological record of actions to be referred to at a later time if that is necessary - literally the point of any logbook).
And if you are attempting to play a tab target game to it's fullest, there are reasons.
It's possible to create a hybrid - which is why Intrepid is working on hybrid combat.
We're still in Alpha. How easy it is to create systems in going to depend on each game and they all work together.
Apparently because you care more about player skills than character skills.
sense when have defense and block been the same thing in any MMO, defense is damage mitigation, block is a % chance to shrug off damage which is dumb when you can active block and use stamina to mitigate damage and create an ebb and flow around that.
you guys don't want to have to make quick reactions you want your game to be all macro and no micro so it's easy for you
Sure... Active Block and Active Dodge are fun enhancements - especially for visual story-telling - but the quick reactions of the player shoud have minimal effect on RPG gameplay.
Same with a character's aim. I should be able to build the accuracy of my character's aim to be godlike - even if my own, personal aim as a player sucks.
If the genre is BR or Shooter, sure... that should be all about the quick reactions of the player and the character's stats mostly irrelevant.
Your arguments are misguided, ever-changing tangents, and also still not relevant to the conversation in the first place.
Floating text can literally only ever be part of the UI, so yes obviously it's immersion breaking if that is the primary method of combat indicators. It also means there's very little combat focus required, because it's spoon-feeding you everything.
Visual animations, particle vfx, and sound cues are how information should be given now that we clearly have the technology to do so. It's more immersive, more engaging, and rewards paying attention.
And again, this entire discussion is irrelevant to the topic (and honestly just reminds me why I had your bullheaded, derailing presence set on Ignore for so long, which will be swiftly corrected because this entire conversation is going to prove obnoxious, pointless, and you'll keep making up new ways to derail as is your way in every thread)
what an ignorant thing to say, who are you to say what is and isn't an RPG. so what is fallout, new world, elden ring, guild wars, elder scrolls, mana series, etc. what kind of games are those?
you're gonna tell me one style of games usual way of doing things doesn't fit into other games? why is borderlands so popular then you level up in that game like you would an RPG that's not very shooter like.
you guys will come up with any excuse to make this game into a carebear game.
I’d much prefer the focus be on live combat, ensuring it’s balanced, dynamic, and feels engaging. Life skills like fishing, cooking, blacksmithing, and crafting are much more interesting to me than some overdone storyline.
When playing with others, it shouldn’t feel like you’re the “main character” in some grand narrative. The focus should be on the group experience, where everyone influences the world around them. The idea of one person being the “champion” that saves everyone is an outdated RPG trope that doesn't fit well in a modern MMO.
LoS utilization hasn't actually been shown as far as I know, but I would hope projectiles would fail to hit if they're pathed into terrain or some other object as another option of active defensive measures players can take.
Also, someone who has been playing RPGs for 45 years. And someone who was a game dev for 10+ years.
Yep. I'm going to tell you that just because the rules for American Football are fun, does not mean they should all be adopted by Soccer and Rugby.
Carebear has nothing to do with whether or not mobs can auto-lock on you.
If you can't deal with auto-lock - git gud!!
But... Ashes is in Alpha - there's no reason to QQ about all mobs having auto-lock right now - as if the game currently has all the mobs there will ever be in the game.
Even with the mobs and NPCs, Steven wants to try for hybrid combat... and will implement hybrid combat if they can deliver hybrid combat - if they can get it to work decently with their other systems and features.
At release, New World was mostly a Survival Game with some RPG elements cobbled in at the end.
Like turning Soccer into Rugby to try to make it feel like American Football.
We just need to see more mobs with ranged attacks in order to judge. Yes, I agree mobs need to have more "action" abilities, that you can avoid by moving out of their path.
regarding passive vs active defense, here's my suggestion:
- Shield users can use active block.
- There's a dodge/dash abilities without iframes, that only certain classes can have.
Active block with shield should consume stamina in 2 ways.
1. While you hold the block button
2. When you block a hit, your stamina bar goes down.
Obviously there should be ways to spec into it, so less stamina gets spent when hit, or while holding the block.
This way, you incorporate different passive abilities and stats into an active portion of gameplay.
However, the "action" part of your defense, should also come from your reactions to things happening. Interrupting an ability before the enemy can cast it, timing your defensive skills before big damaging abilities hit you, using certain debuffs to make enemies do less of certain type of damage to you, etc. In this sense, your "active block" is basically just another reactive ability that you use when you expect to get hit. It's really not that different, except that it maybe uses a different resource bar.
In the same way, your dash is also another reactive ability, where you can quickly dash in whatever direction to avoid certain abilities or to reposition.
Also, your defenses should come from your stats.
Passive block chance should also be there, but should require a shield.
Parry chance should be there, but require a melee weapon.
I absolutely hated when in more recent times (the last 10+ years), tab-targeting games started removing things like resistances to certain elements, or more niche and specific stats, in favor of more bland and general stats (just having strength, int, stamina, agility - which increase several of your attributes at the same time, rather than having those attributes as separate stats). It just removes a whole aspect of a game, and makes everything bland and boring.
There should be more variety. If I for example want to build a parry warrior and I use dual wield weapons, and another warrior goes for block chance because they use a shield, we should prioritize different stats, gear, and we'll probably have 2 different builds, with different playstyles. Variety comes from within the class, weapon, gear, stat selection, and on top of that we also have the augment system as well... One can only dream...
A mage that's using a wand maybe doesn't have an access to those 2 means of passive defense, so they go for other types of defense.
Certain damage types maybe cannot be parried, like magic. Just like maybe certain abilities cannot be blocked.
In my opinion, mobs should absolutely do telegraphed, "action combat" attacks, that you can avoid by simply moving out of their way. However, why should every class have access to a dodge roll for example? Some classes should simply focus on more mobility (like Rogues, maybe Rangers and Warriors), while others should focus on other means of defense (Tanks actually tanking the damage, but having means to reduce or block it; Mages maybe having reflects, also having a blink to avoid it; Bards having short term buffs to decrease incoming dmg, etc.)
I will never talk about defense in that specific manner, for what I consider a very good reason.
To me, defense is everything your character has on them to be able to prevent an attack from landing, or reducing the damage it inflicts if it lands. This includes stats, passive abilities and active abilities.
To me, these all come under the umbrella term "defense".
Some games label their damage mitigation stats as being "defense". While they are welcome to label things as they like in their game, when not talking about specific games, calling that stat "defense" as opposed to using a more specific term means you have no specific term left to talk about the over all defense a character, group or raid has.
So, I will always refer to what some games call a defense stat as mitigation, as that is the function that stat has, and frees up the term "defense" for the over all picture.
Again, immersion is a personal thing - and is something you can consciously alter.
It is the players responsibility to maintain an amount of suspension of disbelief. We all need to have some amount of what we consider acceptable and not immersion breaking, and what we do not. This line that we each have absolutely can be moved by the player, if they desire to do so.
One can absolutely become immersed in a game where UI elements are key. Just as one can absolutely become immersed in a turn based game. Both rely on the player wanting to be immersed in that game, however.
So, quite honestly, any talk of "immersion" isn't really valid outside of a discussion on personal preference.
As to your comments on information - I have never played a game in which any part of the challenge was in obtaining information. The challenge - and thus skill - is in having the information and knowing what to do with it.
The notion of not being given all appropriate information in an easy to understand manner is foreign to me, and I really xant see how it would make for a good game.
The topic may be irrelevant to the topic, but if you look back, it is just how replies between us have gone. There has not been a direct change of topic.
If you want to get back to the original point, my point still is that you can't have a game that has action RPG defenses without calling the game an action RPG.
Ashes isn't an ARPG.
Soccer was being played in a town called Rugby, Webb Ellis picked the ball up and ran with it and rugby the sport was invented. Both sports were bought over to America. Rugby morphed in to American Football.
Can one do it like in for Example WoW - > and "dodge" the ranged Attack by hiding behind Cover before the Attack is launched at You ?
Because if it would go like in WoW - that would force the ranged Foes to come around the Corner where You can nicely wait to let their face meet your Melee Weapon.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
That's not a dodge even in quotes. If something is launched at you from range, but you go behind cover a moment after it's cast, it shouldn't be hitting you through the solid object.
Homing is fine, but there should be collision like was advertised. Tanks being able to intercept projectiles was a big deal to claim would happen in combat, but that sort of system only works when projectile collision exists at all, and thus can be avoided via smart positioning and player motion.
Cover does not necessarily prevent racnged attacks.
Also, it really means that compared to the accuracy of the attacker - the player character's ability to dodge ranged attacks sucks more than the gamer's IRL keyboard/mouse dexterity.
SImilarly, if the player character can Dodge a ranged attack without the gamer using the keyboard/mouse, - the player character's ability to dodge is much greater than the gamer's IRL keyboard/mouse dexterity.
An MMORPG is a game; not real life.
Ashes is intended to have Hybrid combat.
If the devs can't get the Hybrid combat to work - Steven will choose Tab Target over Action Combat.
You are the one who is missing the entire point here.
MMOs are only secondary if not tertiary skill-based games.
The character in an MMORPG (actually most RPGs) is NOT YOU! You are only the player who directs the questions of another.
If you think its unrealistic, think of it like this:
If you had a camera and a gun on you and I give you directions what to do.
I can be the best shot in the world, doesn't change the fact that your skills as a marksman determine if you hit the deer or not. NOT MINE.
THAT is what an evasion stat is: The ability of YOUR CHARACTER to evade an attack, not yours.
And that is a bad thing how?
Every game has easy and hard parts.
Its an MMORPG, not a battlesimulator.
Then fact that people with skill skip defensive stats or even finishe the game without leveling anything at all proves that it wouldn't work here though.[/quote]
You can hate it, but making something easier makes it more accessible.
And since the main audience for this game are people who stuck with MMOs instead of switching to Action RPGs, it makes zero sense to prioritize the niche part of the audience who wants elden ring as an mmo instead of the majority that wants a good non-p2w classic MMORPG with modern features and a few new ideas.
First thing you've said I actually agree with.
At least for ranged non-magical (meaning arrows/bolts) - For magical attacks it is a design choice and should be balanced with damage.
This could actually be something setting ranger and magicians apart in a fundamental way.
And before you say "But this is not immersive", we have heat-seeking missiles in the real world - also: Please try to avoid being shot after the bullet left the barrel...
You might dislike it, but there is such a thing as an unavoidable attack!
Literally no one is asking for that. It was one example given to someone who claimed (very incorrectly) that 'real' RPGs don't use active defenses.
You also seem to have some warped perception of what an RPG is. Role-Play Game, aka you are the one playing the role of a character. The character isn't playing the game for you.
If your reflexes suck, then obviously you shouldn't be trying to make your RPG character an evasive rogue that dodges everything because you don't have the capability to embody that.
Fighters have combos, Mages have synergistic skill orders. Both of those are skill expressions determined by the player, and both are good to have. Active evasion is just another system like that.