Can we do something about Griefers ?

I'm on Shol server, this past two days have been an horrible experience. I'm looking to test Carphin Tower content, each time we go there there is one (1) player named Heiler from Standby Rubin guild that wants us to pay. We did not, he then proceeded to pull large packs of mobs onto us over and over again until we die. If we kill him we get corrupted, even if he dies from mobs, he's back within 2 minutes. He's at max level so doesn't care about exp debt.

I tried the day later, within 10 minutes he was here, apparently someone from our group was streaming. We moved to Gravespeak, he followed us all the way to grief us there as well.

I'm playing this game to test its content and provide feedback. I'm not interested in providing entertainment for some jobless loser. Want me to provide feedback about Carphin ? Well guess what every time I went there I got griefed.

I'm done playing until something is done.

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Azherae

CROW3 wrote: »

MrWeapons wrote: »

Its on all servers... why farm mobs for glint and recourses when you can farm dead players corpses. right?

There's an arithmetic truth to this. If someone leaves a node with completely empty bags and the specific intent of 'gathering' by looting ow pvp fields, they will always have a net positive material gain no matter how many times they are killed as a purple.

This, by design, would have been factored for really early.

Some other stuff in the game, I can see how it was 'let's see how it shakes out and how best to use our behavioural incentives', but this one is just, as CROW3 said, a direct truth.

So unlike my usual 'benefit of the doubt' I think we have to assume this is intended, it's part of the Risk-Reward, Cooperation-Drama, Winners-Losers thing. But what we have not seen yet is whatever Intrepid's concept of Level Scaling/Syncing/whatever is, and on the Technical level we now have at least one example of a game that can define its zones in a complex enough way to do some of this.

Basically if PoIs have level clamp/scaling the way TL Dynamic Events do, then we can absolutely consider this a skill issue relative to what Ashes requires. Don't stand so close to the edge of the area/zone that someone outside it who isn't level-clamped, can bother you. The rest of it probably counts as 'fair game'.

Ludullu wrote: »

This could have a fairly simple solution, once Intrepid figure out their AI shit.
if the player that aggroed a mob is 5+lvls higher than the mob - the mob only uses single-target attacks

if that player tries to redirect the aggro - the effect fails

if that player disappears (i.e. logs off, goes stealth, etc), and the equal-lvl players do not attack the aggroed mob - the mob simply goes back to their initial location

Please no, as a 'PvE' player of many years, this is almost instantly abusable and nearly every implementation of this sort of thing has either been exploitably bad, or ineffective against the sort of person who has the skill to do this in the first place.

It also places massive, frustrating limitations on even open-world encounter design as described. I wouldn't ask that they put any time into figuring out how to do this. Level Scaling solves this way better than fiddly AI stuff, and Intrepid almost certainly has to implement the basic level of this anyway (for those unfamiliar, level scaling is not generally 'work' for Devs, in the way you might expect, it should just be emergent from their balance equations).

I have no opinion on whether or not level-clamped players should receive drops or exp at the optimal rates, that's a more 'real' and game dependent design question.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Please no, as a 'PvE' player of many years, this is almost instantly abusable and nearly every implementation of this sort of thing has either been exploitably bad, or ineffective against the sort of person who has the skill to do this in the first place.

My mind is drawing blanks. Can you give an example of abusability of this kind of design?

And just to clarify that suggestion, the mob actions I listed above would only work as long as the high lvl player is the first one in the aggro list. And as long as that player has the looting rights (i.e. over 50% dmg dealt) - the mob should drop barely anything for a 4+ lvls higher player and nothing at all for the 9+lvls one.

Azherae wrote: »

Level Scaling solves this way better than fiddly AI stuff, and Intrepid almost certainly has to implement the basic level of this anyway (for those unfamiliar, level scaling is not generally 'work' for Devs, in the way you might expect, it should just be emergent from their balance equations).

But wouldn't lvl scalling require separation of pvp and pve stats? And how would you then balance that against the ability of other players to bring in high lvl mobs into the fight?

I gueeeeess we have the corrupted state in the plan already, which separates your pvp and pve power in terms of stat dampening, so maybe Intrepid already have the tools for that part of the equation, but the pve side of the open world would still remain.

I would imagine leashing changes would help, but then wouldn't that just mean that OP's problem is somewhat gone then?

Azherae

Ludullu wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Please no, as a 'PvE' player of many years, this is almost instantly abusable and nearly every implementation of this sort of thing has either been exploitably bad, or ineffective against the sort of person who has the skill to do this in the first place.

My mind is drawing blanks. Can you give an example of abusability of this kind of design?

And just to clarify that suggestion, the mob actions I listed above would only work as long as the high lvl player is the first one in the aggro list. And as long as that player has the looting rights (i.e. over 50% dmg dealt) - the mob should drop barely anything for a 4+ lvls higher player and nothing at all for the 9+lvls one.

Azherae wrote: »

Level Scaling solves this way better than fiddly AI stuff, and Intrepid almost certainly has to implement the basic level of this anyway (for those unfamiliar, level scaling is not generally 'work' for Devs, in the way you might expect, it should just be emergent from their balance equations).

But wouldn't lvl scalling require separation of pvp and pve stats? And how would you then balance that against the ability of other players to bring in high lvl mobs into the fight?

I gueeeeess we have the corrupted state in the plan already, which separates your pvp and pve power in terms of stat dampening, so maybe Intrepid already have the tools for that part of the equation, but the pve side of the open world would still remain.

I would imagine leashing changes would help, but then wouldn't that just mean that OP's problem is somewhat gone then?

Why would it require that?

Level scaling affects players, not mobs?

This is how it works in FF11 and TL, with TL having the 'better' more simplified version (somewhat less balanced, but definitely more balanced than anything I expect from Ashes even at launch).

Sorry, I just don't follow but I'll give a very brief and underexplained example of how it works in TL so you can lmk where it loses you.

Dominion Blood Mushroom event in Sandworm Lair in TL has a 'level cap' of around '33'.

TL's stats are tuned/laid out cleanly in terms of how players experience them. Here are some of the caps for Blood Mushroom. This applies to all players within a specific area in Sandworm Lair. This area has a physical ceiling. The game applies a status effect that 'debuffs' you when you are in the area.

Defenses are capped at Level*50.
Accuracy and Evasion are capped at Level*10
Base stats (the ones you assign) are capped at Level number.
Some other derivative stats are capped according to a formula related to what levels of gear you're expected to have at that level (basically, high level blue gear)
Cooldown Speed Reduction and some other similar stats are capped at Level Number/2.

So if I, at level 50, went into Blood Mushroom fully geared like this:

Melee Defense 2400, Melee Hit Rate 687, Melee Evasion 1080, Wisdom 45, Mana Regen 480, Cooldown Speed Reduction 40% (this last one is a bit unrealistic).

Then the instant I enter the area my stats will become:
Melee Defense 1650, Melee Hit Rate 330, Melee Evasion 330, Wisdom 33, Mana Regen 450 (don't quote me on this one), Cooldown Speed Reduction 16.5%.

Noaani

h8br33d wrote: »

AstuWar wrote: »

h8br33d wrote: »

The part that makes this very bad is, there is no chance at retaliation for the lower lvl players because of such high level gap.

Mob trains have been a tool in all MMOs I've played. They are not going anywhere and I do believe there are legitimate uses for them (not this one, though). If you can't engage in direct combat, learn to use the tools you do have. Griefers learnt to use mob trains, now it's your turn.

Ofc mob trains are in other mmo's ,but other mmo's arent dropping your loot as a result.

Some do indeed have this.

The main difference is - in those other games, people don't look to PvP to solve their problem.

Noaani

Ludullu wrote: »

This could have a fairly simple solution, once Intrepid figure out their AI shit.
if the player that aggroed a mob is 5+lvls higher than the mob - the mob only uses single-target attacks

if that player tries to redirect the aggro - the effect fails

if that player disappears (i.e. logs off, goes stealth, etc), and the equal-lvl players do not attack the aggroed mob - the mob simply goes back to their initial location

I'm curious - why would you suggest Intrepid fix an issue that is 100% player skill based?

CROW3

I'm not a big fan of area / mob level scaling, so I'd approach this in a similar fashion as Ludullu.

Basically, mobs have 4 states:
- Baseline
- Aggroed
- Leashed
- Dead

The original nominal state of a mob is 'baseline.' When a player aggroes a mob (actively by hitting it, or passively by getting close) the mob is 'aggroed' with a focus of the player. Any other player that hits the mob is registered, but the mob's focus can only be broken by some heavy redirect (such as a taunt or MASSIVE hit).

If the mob moves beyond x-yards from its baseline coordinates it enters a 'leashed' state with a return to baseline coordinate; any action taken against a mob in a leashed state is evaded. Once a mob returns to its original coordinate it heals to full and enters 'baseline' again.
Caveat:
- If the mob kills the focused player, and the player isn't in a group, the mob becomes 'leashed'
- If the mob kills the focused player, and the player IS in a group, the mob focus changes to the next alive player with the most amount of threat

'Dead' is dead - but any player with a registered hit on the mob has their own loot.

Azherae

CROW3 wrote: »

I'm not a big fan of area / mob level scaling, so I'd approach this in a similar fashion as Ludullu.

Basically, mobs have 4 states:
- Baseline
- Aggroed
- Leashed
- Dead

The original nominal state of a mob is 'baseline.' When a player aggroes a mob (actively by hitting it, or passively by getting close) the mob is 'aggroed' with a focus of the player. Any other player that hits the mob is registered, but the mob's focus can only be broken by some heavy redirect (such as a taunt or MASSIVE hit).

If the mob moves beyond x-yards from its baseline coordinates it enters a 'leashed' state with a return to baseline coordinate; any action taken against a mob in a leashed state is evaded. Once a mob returns to its original coordinate it heals to full and enters 'baseline' again.
Caveat:
- If the mob kills the focused player, and the player isn't in a group, the mob becomes 'leashed'
- If the mob kills the focused player, and the player IS in a group, the mob focus changes to the next alive player with the most amount of threat

'Dead' is dead - but any player with a registered hit on the mob has their own loot.

Yeah I'm being kinda selfish again, since I still don't want Ashes PvE to be WoW tier, but that's the direction, so honestly it wouldn't make sense to use the non-WoW style.

I don't feel like competing with all the old heads who will abuse this to rush to level 50, so as long as Intrepid can find some sane, non-exploit way around that, we good, I guess. It's just disappointing to have everything come down to this 'tier' of gameplay after all these years, y'know?

CROW3

Azherae wrote: »

Yeah I'm being kinda selfish again, since I still don't want Ashes PvE to be WoW tier, but that's the direction, so honestly it wouldn't make sense to use the non-WoW style.

I don't feel like competing with all the old heads who will abuse this to rush to level 50, so as long as Intrepid can find some sane, non-exploit way around that, we good, I guess. It's just disappointing to have everything come down to this 'tier' of gameplay after all these years, y'know?

Totally fair point. It's also practical, not selfish - they'll need to figure out the mob scaling deal to keep Verra dangerous and not obsolete. It's not like there's another continent inhabited by Xin Dynasty polar bears on the horizon.

That said, if they don't deal with the broken-ness of elite mobs being pulled into lowbie groups level scaling may not matter. In 1987 parlance, 'there will be nobody left to go to the chopper.'

ColdSteel

These are great ideas, guys. Some minor adjustments will reduce the current issue.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Dominion Blood Mushroom event in Sandworm Lair in TL has a 'level cap' of around '33'.

This is where I get lost. I dislike "area = lvl" designs. The entire point of how nodes, supposedly, work with their mob distribution is that you can see a lvl 20 mob right next to a lvl10 (well, at least relatively speaking).

So locking down an entire location (ar even a part of it) just to bring it down to a certain lvl doesn't feel good to me.

And the question would still stand. Are there high lvl mobs near to that area? Can they be pulled into it? If yes - what happens?

What about pvp in the context of fights right on the edge of that location. If, say, the location is lvl20 and there's a lvl30 healer with lvl30 heal power right outside of that location. And there's a fight between his lvl30 mate and another lvl30 player. Then the mate goes into the lvl20 location, goes down in hp (I'd imagine it would keep his relative hp %, right), but the healer stays outside of that location and heals him with strong heals, after which the mate jumps back outside of the location, now with full hp. Is this kind of situation possible in TL?

Also, what about gear difference? Rn we have several sets of gear per gear stage (i.e. several power lvls of lvl10 gear). Would the gear power of higher lvl player get relatively decreased according to his own gear? If any player above that location's lvl are simply at the ceiling of player power, then how does that compare to someone of that location's lvl but not in best lvl-appropriate gear? What about rarity scaling within those sets?

How does cross-boarder pvp work. Would a high lvl player who kill an equalized high lvl player recieve corruption equal to what he would get were he to kill a lowbie? I'd imagine so, but then how obvious are the boarders of these locations, cause I definitely see hardcore PK baiting across them.

To me, all of this is super messy, while proper mob AI design is way more straitforward. And I honestly still don't understand how exactly would it be abused or how would it prevent good mob design.

Noaani wrote: »

I'm curious - why would you suggest Intrepid fix an issue that is 100% player skill based?

I thiiiiink I've said it before on the forums, but I forget now. I find mob training real shitty. Especially the kind that we have in Ashes rn.

I'm all for "the victim used an aoe when they shouldn't have and they paid the price for it" kinds of situations, but rn mobs can reaggro on a fucking whim. I definitely hope/expect that to change. What the point in aggro lists and their manipulation if a mob can just randomly run towards someone who had nothing to do with it.

Noaani

Ludullu wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I'm curious - why would you suggest Intrepid fix an issue that is 100% player skill based?

I thiiiiink I've said it before on the forums, but I forget now. I find mob training real shitty. Especially the kind that we have in Ashes rn.

I don't disagree - but there are many equally shitty things players do in PvP where the response is "get good".

I'm all for "the victim used an aoe when they shouldn't have and they paid the price for it" kinds of situations, but rn mobs can reaggro on a fucking whim.

I'm sure mob aggro will be tweaked from where it is, but it is still predictable/calculatable who will be aggrod on and when.

While I haven't got it to work for threat in Ashes yet, it is worth pointing out that figuring out who will get aggro in a situation like this is something a combat tracker can help immensly in - working out what could be behind things that seem random really is the point of them.

To those people that don't know how these things work, there are two key points that matter in *most* games where this is possible. The first is that proximity pulling a mob in itself doesn't generate any hate. You are (in most games) technically on the mobs threat list with 0 hate.

The other thing to keep in mind is that (in most games) buffs generate hate. In some games, even just class passives generate hate.

I've not run any in depth experiments in Ashes - and won't without a fully working tracker - so there may well be some other factors at play here. However, these two facts are most likely what players need to know to prevent being trained on.

This is why the whole thing is a player skill issue - it is purely a matter of knowing the specifics of the game in question. Those that know the games mechanics better are in a better position than those that do not.

Its_Me

I made a character on another server (your cactus server) last weekend for testing something specific and was leveling with a random group in highway hills. I leveled from 8-10 in the area where there was one level 25 griefer constantly pulling blister and 3 star mobs on us and I did not die once, even at my low level.

I simply kept alert and watched for any player running towards our group and if I saw someone coming, I refrained from casting anything that was aoe or would splinter off to other NPCs so that my damage stayed on the NPC we had targeted. If Blister or multiple 3 star mobs were following, I ran out of the area and came back after, this resulted in seconds lost, not even minutes. If the person only had a couple mobs on them, we killed them for xp.

People need to simply stay more alert and play defensively.

Andi

AstuWar wrote: »

h8br33d wrote: »

The part that makes this very bad is, there is no chance at retaliation for the lower lvl players because of such high level gap.

As is expected.

What you could do instead:

1) Bend over and take it from behind

2) ...

3) Profit

Mmh. Sounds like a solution to anyone?

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

To those people that don't know how these things work, there are two key points that matter in *most* games where this is possible. The first is that proximity pulling a mob in itself doesn't generate any hate. You are (in most games) technically on the mobs threat list with 0 hate.

And I'm simply saying that the mob shold only aggro onto the 0 hate player if the mob is not moving.

I've had a mob that was chasing a low hp person (so they fought each other and that player was definitely above 0 hate) transfer onto me while I was just running by on a horse. To me that makes no god damn sense.

Noaani wrote: »

The other thing to keep in mind is that (in most games) buffs generate hate. In some games, even just class passives generate hate.

And I personally consider this shitty design if those buffs can aggro a mob that doesn't have the buffer (or their target) on its aggro list.

I'm completely fine if a person with 0 hate (the supposed abuser puller) gets buffed by a random dude (or any other positive effects) and then the mob reaggros onto that buffer. But this is also why I've been saying for years that I'm against any and all "outside of the party aoe positive effects". Or at the very least the passive auras and stuff like that should not apply to anyone outside of a party.

Gizban

Noaani wrote: »

rollox wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I'm surprised how few people seem to have worked out how to prevent this, or how to turn it around on the character trying to train mobs on to others.

Players have tried. I was in a group that tried. The level and gear difference just makes it futile.

Based on this response, I have to assume your attempt was based around PvP.

As has been said, training mobs like this is commonplace in the early stages of most PvE MMORPG's where you can't attack the other players. This should make it obvious that the means to deal with this situation are not PvP based, meaning your gear and level simply aren't factors.

This is absolutely a player skill issue - if you can't work out how to avoid being trained, then you deserve to be trained.

It's interesting to see what people find pride in.
You get em, tiger. You tell them scrubs.

Its_Me

pyreal wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

rollox wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I'm surprised how few people seem to have worked out how to prevent this, or how to turn it around on the character trying to train mobs on to others.

Players have tried. I was in a group that tried. The level and gear difference just makes it futile.

Based on this response, I have to assume your attempt was based around PvP.

As has been said, training mobs like this is commonplace in the early stages of most PvE MMORPG's where you can't attack the other players. This should make it obvious that the means to deal with this situation are not PvP based, meaning your gear and level simply aren't factors.

This is absolutely a player skill issue - if you can't work out how to avoid being trained, then you deserve to be trained.

It's interesting to see what people find pride in.
You get em, tiger. You tell them scrubs.

I am not certain the point of your post?

The person you quoted simply gave some examples of how aggro works to help people understand how to avoid the issue brought up by the OP? They even stated that they agreed with the OP that training mobs on others is shitty?

h8br33d

Its_Me wrote: »

I made a character on another server (your cactus server) last weekend for testing something specific and was leveling with a random group in highway hills. I leveled from 8-10 in the area where there was one level 25 griefer constantly pulling blister and 3 star mobs on us and I did not die once, even at my low level.

I simply kept alert and watched for any player running towards our group and if I saw someone coming, I refrained from casting anything that was aoe or would splinter off to other NPCs so that my damage stayed on the NPC we had targeted. If Blister or multiple 3 star mobs were following, I ran out of the area and came back after, this resulted in seconds lost, not even minutes. If the person only had a couple mobs on them, we killed them for xp.

People need to simply stay more alert and play defensively.

This works a good 30% of the time with the pyros they seem to just proximity aggro. I can't count how many times myself and others have got 1 shot because the person with original aggro has left the area, none of us even using an ability.

h8br33d

Andi wrote: »

AstuWar wrote: »

h8br33d wrote: »

The part that makes this very bad is, there is no chance at retaliation for the lower lvl players because of such high level gap.

As is expected.

What you could do instead:

1) Bend over and take it from behind

2) ...

3) Profit

Mmh. Sounds like a solution to anyone?

Yup you didn't know you're are just supposed to surrender all your loot to the level 25, So they can completely gear out off the drops you gave up, and lord over you even more with his newly crafted gear from your materials lol

Its_Me

h8br33d wrote: »

Its_Me wrote: »

I made a character on another server (your cactus server) last weekend for testing something specific and was leveling with a random group in highway hills. I leveled from 8-10 in the area where there was one level 25 griefer constantly pulling blister and 3 star mobs on us and I did not die once, even at my low level.

I simply kept alert and watched for any player running towards our group and if I saw someone coming, I refrained from casting anything that was aoe or would splinter off to other NPCs so that my damage stayed on the NPC we had targeted. If Blister or multiple 3 star mobs were following, I ran out of the area and came back after, this resulted in seconds lost, not even minutes. If the person only had a couple mobs on them, we killed them for xp.

People need to simply stay more alert and play defensively.

This works a good 30% of the time with the pyros they seem to just proximity aggro. I can't count how many times myself and others have got 1 shot because the person with original aggro has left the area, none of us even using an ability.

If you reacted after the person got far enough past you to lose the aggro, this is part of the issue. Now, if the person had the proximity aggro Noanni mentioned and didn't touch the mob, then yes, that is a little more difficult to control as the person dragging them only needs to get them close enough to you. If I were having this issue and could not handle it, I would think about trying to adjust my location to minimize this.

I am not suggesting that everyone can avoid every potential situation, I just agree with the posters that have stated that having knowledge of how aggro mechanics work in the game AND exercising heightened situational awareness protocol will go far in limiting deaths. As I stated, my group was a bunch of randoms and if the tank or others had their back turned from the area mobs were being dragged, I started calling out INC in party chat (takes 1 second) and others just followed suit and started doing the same.

Its_Me

h8br33d wrote: »

Yup you didn't know you're are just supposed to surrender all your loot to the level 25, So they can completely gear out off the drops you gave up, and lord over you even more with his newly crafted gear from your materials lol

Why are you going to highway hills as a corrupted red player?

Oh wait the surrendering all your loot, this was just over-exaggeration and drama for a point? 🤦‍♀️

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