Make block drain mana or stamina on impact if there is a stamina system
That is an overly simply mechanic that can probably be abused to keep a tank in a permanent blocking stance in a raid.
Maybe if they go the mana route, but with stamina no, if stamina gets drained and the only way to get it back is to attack or wait, then permanently blocking wont be an issue.
I dont even see a reason to permanently block in the first place, thats just losing DPS and aggro.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Seems unlikely that permanently Block will be a thing.
Neither will permanent Dodge or permanent Roll.
I don't think I need to re-read anything.
All I said was to expect there to be RNG blocking because Ashes is an RPG - and you wanted to argue about that for some reason.
If you want to fool yoursef into thinking that there won't be just because Jeffrey is no longer a dev, go ahead.
LOL
I'm having a discussion not an argument, big difference dude
Not "fooling" myself into anything, sharing my opinion during the developmental stage of the combat system as many in this community do and as is the intention of these forums and specific thread discussions such as this one
Make block drain mana or stamina on impact if there is a stamina system
That is an overly simply mechanic that can probably be abused to keep a tank in a permanent blocking stance in a raid.
Maybe if they go the mana route, but with stamina no, if stamina gets drained and the only way to get it back is to attack or wait, then permanently blocking wont be an issue.
I dont even see a reason to permanently block in the first place, thats just losing DPS and aggro.
Last I checked, they're going for a single HP bar and single resource bar for actions/abilities. There is a simple solution similar to what you were saying here. There's been lots of discussions like this in the past on the forums pertaining how active blocking should work to prevent abuse
I don't think being able to hold up a block forever should be a thing either. Things like resource drain over time or just consumption on use from blocking are genuinely quite common to prevent such abuse. Additionally, depending on values for those, the stagger bar and shield breaker limits work quite well as proven in many video games that utilise it. There could also be if resource drained or shield breaker limit reached, add delays to recovery of said resource or mechanic.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2022
You wanted to disagree with the info I shared - same difference.
But, "you're such an odd ball sometimes for sharing the info you know" kinda steps things up a notch from merely having a discussion.
I didn't suggest you were foaming at the mouth with vitriol.
Make block drain mana or stamina on impact if there is a stamina system
That is an overly simply mechanic that can probably be abused to keep a tank in a permanent blocking stance in a raid.
Maybe if they go the mana route, but with stamina no, if stamina gets drained and the only way to get it back is to attack or wait, then permanently blocking wont be an issue.
I dont even see a reason to permanently block in the first place, thats just losing DPS and aggro.
The only way this would be the case is if stamina ad a resource is only used for blocking.
If it is used for anything else, they will add in a regen method.
I cant say I would be a fan of a combat resource only used for blocking.
IIRC,
if your class uses a mana resource, then your dodging and blocking comes from your mana. The team didn't want to have 2 resource bars on the UI because of reasons like overly complicating the UI. Even though I completely disagree as many games have two resource bars and a health bar.
I'm assuming part of the reason is because if you use magic to block, it'll consume your magic side of things which prevents some classes from having two resources to utilise for dodge and block mechanics. It's going to be interesting with how the 8 primary classes utilise this with their 8 secondary's + augments.
But there is obviously ways to balance this regardless of resource type, consumption and other mechanics.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Looks like all classes use a mana resource - Tanks have Javelin and Fighters have Hammer Strike.
But... yes.
true, it does seem like almost every class uses magic in some way, shape or form. For them to implement an offensive resource bar and a defensive resource bar could be a quite viable trade off instead of the traditional mana for magic and stamina for melee but there really isn't anything wrong with the traditional method either if the right systems are in place for balance.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something but isn't that as easy as applying the blocking stats only when active blocking?
I mean this way you have waterfall stat and at the same time an action combat thing to activate it.
Not sure I understand what you mean.
If you mean that when I press block I get stats like block chance, damage reduction, etc, then i guess you completely miss the point of Active Blocking, the point is to not rely on such stats in the first place.
The point is you have a shield and it blocks stuff when pressed at the right time and when you do so it is satisfying.
If I active block and I all I get is 50% chance of reducing damage by 25% and my character is still taking hit to the face, then thats no better than classic tab-target tanking and might aswell just use that system instead.
@falcorpix You got it. But first we need to assume what are those stats and how work. Because I can understand why is not satisfying getting stats like "chance to something" while active blocking but if you get for example 80% (depending on certain stat) of reduction damage then is a different thing. Active blocking is meaningfull and stats are too.
If you all are referring to active blocking always getting 100% of damage reduction, then yeah sure you have a problem to merge with tab target system, but personally I don't need to block always 100% of damage to enjoy active blocking.
@falcorpix You got it. But first we need to assume what are those stats and how work. Because I can understand why is not satisfying getting stats like "chance to something" while active blocking but if you get for example 80% (depending on certain stat) of reduction damage then is a different thing. Active blocking is meaningfull and stats are too.
If you all are referring to active blocking always getting 100% of damage reduction, then yeah sure you have a problem to merge with tab target system, but personally I don't need to block always 100% of damage to enjoy active blocking.
well, 100% block would be my preference, but i can deal with other options.
My main concern is how good active blocking actually feels, Tera for example has, well had, super satisfying active blocking, it feels like attacks have weight to them and impact the shield, etc, meanwhile in ESO blocking is very underwhelming, just like the rest of the combat.
well, 100% block would be my preference, but i can deal with other options.
My main concern is how good active blocking actually feels, Tera for example has, well had, super satisfying active blocking, it feels like attacks have weight to them and impact the shield, etc, meanwhile in ESO blocking is very underwhelming, just like the rest of the combat.
I never played Tera, but i hear you on blocking feeling correct. What are your thoughts on damage mitigation if an active block fails (for whatever reason)? Is the hit taken at 100%, or is there other passive mitigation (such as dodge) that comes into play?
I never played Tera, but i hear you on blocking feeling correct. What are your thoughts on damage mitigation if an active block fails (for whatever reason)? Is the hit taken at 100%, or is there other passive mitigation (such as dodge) that comes into play?
I dont like passive mitigation, as in stats such has dodge/block chance, etc, Im okay with active mitigation skills (the regular "reduce dmg by X% for Ysecs")
As for Tera, it wasnt just the block that felt correct. You had the active block, you had the dodge iframe and you had a couple of mitigation skills, each had their appropriate use. Blocking was used for most attacks, but there were a lot of unblockable attacks, so dodge was used to avoid unblockable attacks and also used as a mobility, there were also attacks that were unblockable and undodgeable (DoTs for example), thats where mitigations skills would come to play.
And even with all these defensive abilities, healers were still needed, because there is so much going on and the combat is so fast paced, that its just impossible to avoid every single bit of damage.
All this to say that, Tera raised my standards for tanking way too high that im having a hard time having fun tanking anywhere else and I'd love AoC to break my curse.
All this to say that, Tera raised my standards for tanking way too high that im having a hard time having fun tanking anywhere else and I'd love AoC to break my curse.
That's cool - I'm going to have to youtuibe some examples. The vast majority of my tanking is in WoW and a bit of FFXIV (which feels like DDR to me).
What a neat and very well articulated idea! It's cool seeing ideas that are elaborate and well described in such a concise way
Do you see any potential downsides to doing it this way?
There are a number of ideas in this thread.
If you are talking about the OP's idea, the only real downside is that it forces active blocking on to everyone. In a game where action or tab target should be a player choice, forcing all defense to be active (ie, action combat) goes against the goals and stated design of the game.
What a neat and very well articulated idea! It's cool seeing ideas that are elaborate and well described in such a concise way
Do you see any potential downsides to doing it this way?
There are a number of ideas in this thread.
If you are talking about the OP's idea, the only real downside is that it forces active blocking on to everyone. In a game where action or tab target should be a player choice, forcing all defense to be active (ie, action combat) goes against the goals and stated design of the game.
OP option 2 doesn't necessarily force active blocking on to everyone, as passive blocking would still be a thing and work together with active blocking, and who knows you could give players customization possibilities like:
sacrificing your passive block to get more duration or less cooldown or more % damage reduction from blocking for your active block, or on the other hand, sacrificing your active block in order to get more block chance or more % damage reduction from blocking.
Ok, so I'm gonna explain a little on my favorite experience in an MMO involving blocking.
As someone who normally plays a tank, the game I have favored the most in this aspect was TERA. The active blocking with a resource bar (resolve) had a max of 1500 points. Each time you blocked, as well as every second it was held, it consumed 100 points.
There were 2 ways to recover it...Overtime and by using a counter attack after a successful block.
This meant that you couldn't simply stand there and do nothing. You had to continuously attack to maintain aggro, and block at the right time while keeping a boss positioned right for the dps.
With that being said, here's how I think active and passive blocking could work together...
Whether someone wants to focus on active blocking vs passive blocking, should be entirely up to the user. What I mean by this, is that it could have to do with a points system.
Player #1 puts all points into active block, leaving little to no passive block, but a successful active block mitigates full damage.
Player #2 puts all into passive block, giving them a much higher chance to block without using active block. Perhaps they also receive an extra boost to overall damage reduction to make up for the rng aspect of it.
Perhaps you can switch between these outside of combat. Passive block could be more useful in group PvP, whereas active blocking could be superior for tanking PvE content (based on Player skill).
Just my thoughts on this. I also wouldn't mind a resource bar similar to what I mentioned before.
Just have active blocking slow your movement speed while blocking and reduce a flat percentage of incoming damage, depending on the shield type. Your passive blocking would be seperate from this. Give each type of shield a set amount of damage it can absorb. Once it reaches that point have it throw your active block on cooldown for a short amount of time. And you can also really play with shields by having certain ones give bonuses like a decrease in active block cooldown time, or a shield with low damage absorbtion but great CC protection.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I mean, I guess you could add a Block boost on a shield, but...
I think active Block will probably be a Primary Archetype skill - possibly a Weapon Skill for Shields.
I'm curious to see whether I'll prefer Active Skill shields over Action Combat Block.
I understand not wanting to be holding up block the entire time and that is all you do as a tank. They just need to design it so its more akin to a dodge then just last a bit longer and different levels of effectiveness based on how you do your stats. That why you can fight and do active blocks time to time as well with a good mix. And it shouldn't be just limited to a shield, but a shield should have the strongest form of it of course.
All this to say that, Tera raised my standards for tanking way too high that im having a hard time having fun tanking anywhere else and I'd love AoC to break my curse.
That's cool - I'm going to have to youtuibe some examples. The vast majority of my tanking is in WoW and a bit of FFXIV (which feels like DDR to me).
Most fun I ever had tanking was in wildstar
The engineer was so different than every other tank I've played.
I like 1 2 and 3, and would add that I think blocking should reduce threat on monsters attacking you. This would help improve the combat loop of a tank pulling groups for his party, and it would make thematic sense for the game.
Don't like 4. I think active blocking needs a resource attatched to it in order for it to work.
I also think that active blocking and passive blocking should share the same stats.
Overall I'm unsure if that active blocking fits in AOC much, and they'll have to talk in significant detail to convince me otherwise. It's concerning to me that our first combat update in a long while has active blocking without any detail given on it.
I could write an essay on all this but I'll spare everybody the wall of text.
Seems easier to do it this way - take WoW as an example (stats here are on the shield) - block rating stat gives a percent chance to block, amount of damage negated is based on block value+armor total. That's for passive waterfall stat blocking.
Then for "active block" RMB, you have 100% chance to block, but amount blocked is not 100%. Maybe it's the same as passive block and the benefit is it's guaranteed, or maybe the amount is higher (maybe it gets a small amount more than stats, like 1.2x stats or whatever).
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PagemasterMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Dygz argues just to argue.
They start talking like they have some sort of grasp on the concept of this game, but you soon realize they just spew their own opinions as if they were facts.
After chatting with them, you'll realize your point comes full circle and the conversation was meaningless.
Homie basically called me out for assuming block was a weapon skill linked to weapons. (Which i wasn't) But here they are:
Comments
That is an overly simply mechanic that can probably be abused to keep a tank in a permanent blocking stance in a raid.
Maybe if they go the mana route, but with stamina no, if stamina gets drained and the only way to get it back is to attack or wait, then permanently blocking wont be an issue.
I dont even see a reason to permanently block in the first place, thats just losing DPS and aggro.
Neither will permanent Dodge or permanent Roll.
LOL
I'm having a discussion not an argument, big difference dude
Not "fooling" myself into anything, sharing my opinion during the developmental stage of the combat system as many in this community do and as is the intention of these forums and specific thread discussions such as this one
Last I checked, they're going for a single HP bar and single resource bar for actions/abilities. There is a simple solution similar to what you were saying here. There's been lots of discussions like this in the past on the forums pertaining how active blocking should work to prevent abuse
I don't think being able to hold up a block forever should be a thing either. Things like resource drain over time or just consumption on use from blocking are genuinely quite common to prevent such abuse. Additionally, depending on values for those, the stagger bar and shield breaker limits work quite well as proven in many video games that utilise it. There could also be if resource drained or shield breaker limit reached, add delays to recovery of said resource or mechanic.
But, "you're such an odd ball sometimes for sharing the info you know" kinda steps things up a notch from merely having a discussion.
I didn't suggest you were foaming at the mouth with vitriol.
The only way this would be the case is if stamina ad a resource is only used for blocking.
If it is used for anything else, they will add in a regen method.
I cant say I would be a fan of a combat resource only used for blocking.
if your class uses a mana resource, then your dodging and blocking comes from your mana. The team didn't want to have 2 resource bars on the UI because of reasons like overly complicating the UI. Even though I completely disagree as many games have two resource bars and a health bar.
I'm assuming part of the reason is because if you use magic to block, it'll consume your magic side of things which prevents some classes from having two resources to utilise for dodge and block mechanics. It's going to be interesting with how the 8 primary classes utilise this with their 8 secondary's + augments.
But there is obviously ways to balance this regardless of resource type, consumption and other mechanics.
But... yes.
I mean this way you have waterfall stat and at the same time an action combat thing to activate it.
Not sure I understand what you mean.
If you mean that when I press block I get stats like block chance, damage reduction, etc, then i guess you completely miss the point of Active Blocking, the point is to not rely on such stats in the first place.
The point is you have a shield and it blocks stuff when pressed at the right time and when you do so it is satisfying.
If I active block and I all I get is 50% chance of reducing damage by 25% and my character is still taking hit to the face, then thats no better than classic tab-target tanking and might aswell just use that system instead.
Or I just got your point completely wrong.
If you all are referring to active blocking always getting 100% of damage reduction, then yeah sure you have a problem to merge with tab target system, but personally I don't need to block always 100% of damage to enjoy active blocking.
well, 100% block would be my preference, but i can deal with other options.
My main concern is how good active blocking actually feels, Tera for example has, well had, super satisfying active blocking, it feels like attacks have weight to them and impact the shield, etc, meanwhile in ESO blocking is very underwhelming, just like the rest of the combat.
I never played Tera, but i hear you on blocking feeling correct. What are your thoughts on damage mitigation if an active block fails (for whatever reason)? Is the hit taken at 100%, or is there other passive mitigation (such as dodge) that comes into play?
As for Tera, it wasnt just the block that felt correct. You had the active block, you had the dodge iframe and you had a couple of mitigation skills, each had their appropriate use. Blocking was used for most attacks, but there were a lot of unblockable attacks, so dodge was used to avoid unblockable attacks and also used as a mobility, there were also attacks that were unblockable and undodgeable (DoTs for example), thats where mitigations skills would come to play.
And even with all these defensive abilities, healers were still needed, because there is so much going on and the combat is so fast paced, that its just impossible to avoid every single bit of damage.
All this to say that, Tera raised my standards for tanking way too high that im having a hard time having fun tanking anywhere else and I'd love AoC to break my curse.
That's cool - I'm going to have to youtuibe some examples. The vast majority of my tanking is in WoW and a bit of FFXIV (which feels like DDR to me).
Do you see any potential downsides to doing it this way?
There are a number of ideas in this thread.
If you are talking about the OP's idea, the only real downside is that it forces active blocking on to everyone. In a game where action or tab target should be a player choice, forcing all defense to be active (ie, action combat) goes against the goals and stated design of the game.
OP option 2 doesn't necessarily force active blocking on to everyone, as passive blocking would still be a thing and work together with active blocking, and who knows you could give players customization possibilities like:
sacrificing your passive block to get more duration or less cooldown or more % damage reduction from blocking for your active block, or on the other hand, sacrificing your active block in order to get more block chance or more % damage reduction from blocking.
Aren't we all sinners?
As someone who normally plays a tank, the game I have favored the most in this aspect was TERA. The active blocking with a resource bar (resolve) had a max of 1500 points. Each time you blocked, as well as every second it was held, it consumed 100 points.
There were 2 ways to recover it...Overtime and by using a counter attack after a successful block.
This meant that you couldn't simply stand there and do nothing. You had to continuously attack to maintain aggro, and block at the right time while keeping a boss positioned right for the dps.
With that being said, here's how I think active and passive blocking could work together...
Whether someone wants to focus on active blocking vs passive blocking, should be entirely up to the user. What I mean by this, is that it could have to do with a points system.
Player #1 puts all points into active block, leaving little to no passive block, but a successful active block mitigates full damage.
Player #2 puts all into passive block, giving them a much higher chance to block without using active block. Perhaps they also receive an extra boost to overall damage reduction to make up for the rng aspect of it.
Perhaps you can switch between these outside of combat. Passive block could be more useful in group PvP, whereas active blocking could be superior for tanking PvE content (based on Player skill).
Just my thoughts on this. I also wouldn't mind a resource bar similar to what I mentioned before.
I think active Block will probably be a Primary Archetype skill - possibly a Weapon Skill for Shields.
I'm curious to see whether I'll prefer Active Skill shields over Action Combat Block.
my 2 cents
Most fun I ever had tanking was in wildstar
The engineer was so different than every other tank I've played.
Don't like 4. I think active blocking needs a resource attatched to it in order for it to work.
I also think that active blocking and passive blocking should share the same stats.
Overall I'm unsure if that active blocking fits in AOC much, and they'll have to talk in significant detail to convince me otherwise. It's concerning to me that our first combat update in a long while has active blocking without any detail given on it.
I could write an essay on all this but I'll spare everybody the wall of text.
Then for "active block" RMB, you have 100% chance to block, but amount blocked is not 100%. Maybe it's the same as passive block and the benefit is it's guaranteed, or maybe the amount is higher (maybe it gets a small amount more than stats, like 1.2x stats or whatever).
They start talking like they have some sort of grasp on the concept of this game, but you soon realize they just spew their own opinions as if they were facts.
After chatting with them, you'll realize your point comes full circle and the conversation was meaningless.
Homie basically called me out for assuming block was a weapon skill linked to weapons. (Which i wasn't) But here they are:
Just a troll. From here on out I'm ignoring anything they post.