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Would you consider a 1 year wipe cycle?

2

Comments

  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Is getting the gear itself the reward for you then? Personally I like stuff that that is outside of power progression, because it never really becomes outdated, new mounts might look better than old ones, but the resolution isn't actually degraded it just doesn't look as good as a new mount. What is your ideal reward? How do you feel about the gear you get becoming less relevant- completely irrelevant after each expansion?
    Like I said, I prefer tight gear scaling, where several tiers are only a few % of power away from each other. So even after a few years the very first top tier gear would be just a few steps below the current top tier gear.

    But my ideal is L2's epic jewelry. It's super powerful items that drop once per farm of the boss (with some bosses not even 100% dropping it) and some of the bosses being on a 1-2 week cd. So, in AoC's case, getting every member of your full raid a single piece from a single boss would take 40 weeks (or 80, with top lvl bosses). And with those bosses being contested by literally every guilds that wants that jewelry (it being the literal BiS for most classes) - you have yourself years-worth of pvx content until you get to fully equip your raid in a full set of that jewelry.

    L2's epic jewelry mainly gave CC boosting stats (both application and defense against), with a few of them boosting crit rates and damages, so, while it definitely increased your dps (or overall impact in pvp), it wasn't a direct atk stat boost.

    And even after years of updates players who managed to get their hands on a full set would be revered as the top people on the server. Oh, and there were 0 visuals tied to that jewelry, so it was all about the stats and the power rather than just showing off a cosmetic.
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
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  • zeiroezeiroe Member, Founder, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    ... fresh ... start?!?!
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    No. The PoE season wipe isn’t a great model for a persistent mmo.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    CROW3 wrote: »
    No. The PoE season wipe isn’t a great model for a persistent mmo.

    No, it isnt.

    However, the events they used to run would be.

    Have the MMO just doing its thing, but once a month (or perhaps once a quarter) set aside a weekend and run specific challenges on another server.

    That said, the OP has hit upon an issue with persistent world PvP MMO's, but this isn't the solution. If it were the solution, Crowfall would be killing it right now.
  • I do agree with the fear that servers will ultimately be controlled by one or two mega factions. In fact, I think that is all but guaranteed to happen. There are a number of systems that have been described for the game that I think make it almost certain. While that is one of my biggest concerns about the game, I dont think server wipes/resets are the answer. That's just not a typical mechanic for MMOs and I dont think it would be received well.
  • It allows for a power reset that prevents long established groups from dominating and continuing to grow forever.

    I am not sure if reset is idea that fixes everything, but this player power will be problem for sure. Everyone is in delusion because we start fresh and everyone thinks we have equal opportunities, but fact is that we don't. Those hard core PVP players will ruin game for everyone as it happened in every PVP MMO. Don't get me wrong, I love open world PVP, but I hate these players that min max everything and focus on being the best in every aspect. Their competitive compulsion is killing this genre. Why other games such as MOBA or FPS don't have this problem? Because of ranking system. Everyone that is on top plays vs players that are on TOP, they do not have an impact on me or players like me that are more casual. You will see, its only matter of time when game releases until they completely break game. Every open world area that is full of important resources will be camped, no one will get cross their path, and if other hard core PVP guild kills guild that was camping that area, then they will take their place and camp it. We (casuals) have no idea how this system will have a bad impact because we live under delusion of fresh start that we have same opportunity.

  • Nova_terraNova_terra Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    CROW3 wrote: »
    No. The PoE season wipe isn’t a great model for a persistent mmo.

    No, it isnt.

    However, the events they used to run would be.

    Have the MMO just doing its thing, but once a month (or perhaps once a quarter) set aside a weekend and run specific challenges on another server.

    That said, the OP has hit upon an issue with persistent world PvP MMO's, but this isn't the solution. If it were the solution, Crowfall would be killing it right now.

    This,

    Season wipes aren't the answer and titles/cosmetic rewards for a year of working toward character progression isn't rewarding for most MMO players in my estimation. Now I am all for every once in awhile (tied to expansions/quarterly/whatever) there being a cataclysmic event (off the top of my head an overtuned Dragon world boss that needs to be killed but requires crazy coordination) and if it isn't successful maybe having something that shakes the world order but that isn't what is being discussed.

  • AerlanaAerlana Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Nodes siege are already there to destroy part of ressources (already invested in node or ready to used but in bank of the node)

    But while your node is destroyed, part of your progress is still there. you don't do a reset.

    A full wipe ? i honestly won't play the game if all i do is time limited lifespan... this is what i dislike most in seasonnal system of POE/D3 and prefer the standart mode
  • Happymeal2415Happymeal2415 Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited November 2022
    I prefer to just retain my character but hypothetically for this thread l I would rather have character death than server wipes.
  • TheDarkSorcererTheDarkSorcerer Member, Alpha Two
    edited November 2022
    Why? This will be a game you invest energy and time into. Wiping a game or giving it a reset after a year will hurt income for Intrepid.

    You wouldn't be able to advertise for the game at all... "Hey guys, join the game now, but in 15 days your characters progress will be deleted as we're nearing our 1 year mark"... That's millions of potential dollars in income from new subscribers down the drain...
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  • VaknarVaknar Member, Staff
    edited November 2022
    "Part of the whole experience with nodes is that there is no real end-game, in that the world is constantly shifting every day. Month one is going to be really different from month two, and that's for the level 50s and level 1s. – Jeffrey Bard"

    "We want the game to be a living game, which means that all content should be relevant at all times. I’d say that we try to make as little distinction between the leveling-up experience and the end-game experience as possible. The whole journey is important to us, in order to maximize the fun people have during different stages of the game. – Sarah Flanagan"

    I wanted to share these quotes from this page of the wiki: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/End_game

    The world of Verra is ever-changing and evolving. The way players and events interact with the world should abolish the need to reset servers to have fun! :)
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  • GandalfthegrapeGandalfthegrape Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    CROW3 wrote: »
    No. The PoE season wipe isn’t a great model for a persistent mmo.

    https://steamcharts.com/app/252490#All
  • GandalfthegrapeGandalfthegrape Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    tautau wrote: »
    Hard NO.

    I love character progression and making my toons into something. Wipes like this would ruin things for me.

    Also, the winners should not be punished for winning.

    But you, OP, are totally free to delete and recreate your character every year.

    You love character progression but you don't want the game to be based around character progression? I don't understand.

    They aren't punished for winning, they get non power rewards that carry over every wipe.

    That's a pretty dumb strawman.
  • GandalfthegrapeGandalfthegrape Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Why? This will be a game you invest energy and time into. Wiping a game or giving it a reset after a year will hurt income for Intrepid.

    You wouldn't be able to advertise for the game at all... "Hey guys, join the game now, but in 15 days your characters progress will be deleted as we're nearing our 1 year mark"... That's millions of potential dollars in income from new subscribers down the drain...

    These games are clearly failing and everyone hates them.

    https://steamcharts.com/app/252490#All
    https://steamcharts.com/app/238960#All
    https://activeplayer.io/minecraft/
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  • Nova_terraNova_terra Member, Alpha Two
    Why? This will be a game you invest energy and time into. Wiping a game or giving it a reset after a year will hurt income for Intrepid.

    You wouldn't be able to advertise for the game at all... "Hey guys, join the game now, but in 15 days your characters progress will be deleted as we're nearing our 1 year mark"... That's millions of potential dollars in income from new subscribers down the drain...

    These games are clearly failing and everyone hates them.

    https://steamcharts.com/app/252490#All
    https://steamcharts.com/app/238960#All
    https://activeplayer.io/minecraft/

    You are pulling together games that are far from what AoC is trying to be? You are also mad that people aren't agreeing with your opinion? Progression takes many forms, and having to go through the same progression multiple times for wipes defeats the purpose of even attempting to get anything until it "resets" if you come in late. Games that actively wipe can be extremely popular, but this is not a game or even a Genre where that is received well and for good reason. A large part of the demographic is against the idea of losing their progress in X time. The Persistent world is what draws them in and keeps them playing.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Why? This will be a game you invest energy and time into. Wiping a game or giving it a reset after a year will hurt income for Intrepid.

    You wouldn't be able to advertise for the game at all... "Hey guys, join the game now, but in 15 days your characters progress will be deleted as we're nearing our 1 year mark"... That's millions of potential dollars in income from new subscribers down the drain...

    These games are clearly failing and everyone hates them.

    https://steamcharts.com/app/252490#All
    https://steamcharts.com/app/238960#All
    https://activeplayer.io/minecraft/

    damn, poe keeps losing players :D

    those games are designed like that. maybe that's why it works?
    you cant just make a game and decide last minute to have wipes every year
  • I think this would be good for the game's longevity as they seem committed to allowing players to take stuff from each other. It allows for a power reset that prevents long established groups from dominating and continuing to grow forever.

    Every time a group defeats another group the winner gets bigger. Eventually there will only be a few on one large group/s that control huge chunks of the map and wipe out every seed that is a fresh group due to the massive disparity in power. There isn't always a bigger fish and the longer and longer it goes on the fewer and fewer tadpoles pop up. The massive whale just crushes them as soon as they pop up and without even really knowing they are there at all.

    This is very common in my experience in rust where clan members go around at day 5-7 foundation wiping wood starter 2x1s with c4 due to just having a ridiculous amount of resources at their disposal. It's not a planned raid or anything c4 just becomes part of the load out and everything that isn't part of the clan evaporates. Or much rarer but still happens, walling off entire monuments and setting auto turrets all over the beach spawn locations. Effectively making the server unplayable. I can see this happening very easily with just a small group from t6s obliterating t3s as they start to gain traction. Assuming they don't install puppet governments.

    It allows for groups that have been fractured to take a break, reset, and come back. Rust, Tarkov, and most minecraft pvp servers operate in a similar way with different time tables based on how long progression takes. It takes about 3 hours to get most of everything in Rust but wipes every week. It takes a few weeks/months to get most of everything in Tarkov and wipes every 6 months or so. Minecraft servers usually wipe based on map size and population and the state of 0,0.

    However it's an mmo and continuity is very important. If you already have advancement in systems that don't have power implications like dancing, emotes, music, skins for mounts, pets, gear, etc. Those would be continuous through each wipe so you have something to work towards that you know you will have forever. It also removes the mentality of "I just died and lost all my stuff so i'm just going to quit forever" As you know the random stuff you get you won't have forever anyway, its less painful and less of a quit moment.

    No. Most of us have a life. We got a work and/or school. Some do sports, have friends, family etc. Need to do stuff at home. It isn't a mmo where you reach max level fast
  • koltovincekoltovince Member, Settler, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two
    Closest thing I can see to a hard reset for AOC will be to reset the nodes or for a world wide event to affect all the nodes that will drastically reset the board and make player activity increase while setting all the players who are at max level back on the same playing field.

    Of course resetting the node may affect player housing, but this is just theory crafting. This isn't an extraction shooter, its an MMO. Meaning by the time content starts to get stale and we are bored of the same guilds ruling the land, new content should come out to satisfy us. If not, quit, go play something else, and come back in 6 months to a whole new game. Thats the beauty of an MMO.
  • Seeing a server grow and change over time will be cool and frequent wipes would take away from that. I'd really like it if when the game launches the wiki expands to have a player-contributed section detailing the history of different servers.
  • WeGboredWeGbored Member, Alpha Two
    I'd be fine with it if the game was built around it from the beginning.

    Not a knee-jerk reaction 1 year after launch to try and put out the flames.
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  • GandalfthegrapeGandalfthegrape Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »
    Seeing a server grow and change over time will be cool and frequent wipes would take away from that. I'd really like it if when the game launches the wiki expands to have a player-contributed section detailing the history of different servers.

    Except it doesn't

    https://steamcharts.com/app/252490#All
    https://steamcharts.com/app/238960#All
    https://activeplayer.io/minecraft/

    Ya having a library with an auto generated similrilion style story would be awesome. Would be cool if each major achievement the player made gave that player 2 seconds of cinematic where when they clicked play it would kinda tell the player's story of their adventures in the world.
    koltovince wrote: »
    Closest thing I can see to a hard reset for AOC will be to reset the nodes or for a world wide event to affect all the nodes that will drastically reset the board and make player activity increase while setting all the players who are at max level back on the same playing field.

    Of course resetting the node may affect player housing, but this is just theory crafting. This isn't an extraction shooter, its an MMO. Meaning by the time content starts to get stale and we are bored of the same guilds ruling the land, new content should come out to satisfy us. If not, quit, go play something else, and come back in 6 months to a whole new game. Thats the beauty of an MMO.

    Ya that would do something really similar, and that's a really good alternative solution. It should also be that you are forced to join a different node than the one you were a part of previously.

    That has nothing to do with anything, the same mechanics have the same results. Also Rust isn't an extraction shooter, neither is minecraft. The ability to take other people's stuff is clearly the comparison I was making to tarkov, and is the most contentious part of ashes. Ashes would even go farther as you can't raid people's hideouts.

    Telling people to quit the game if they don't like it, instead of fixing the problems, is how every game dies. Short of the company not making enough money to justify keeping the servers up.
    Why? This will be a game you invest energy and time into. Wiping a game or giving it a reset after a year will hurt income for Intrepid.

    You wouldn't be able to advertise for the game at all... "Hey guys, join the game now, but in 15 days your characters progress will be deleted as we're nearing our 1 year mark"... That's millions of potential dollars in income from new subscribers down the drain...

    These games are clearly failing and everyone hates them.

    https://steamcharts.com/app/252490#All
    https://steamcharts.com/app/238960#All
    https://activeplayer.io/minecraft/

    Ashes isn't a survival game

    On a fundamental level it is, it's the survival of your civilization and social network. Instead of surviving against players in your base, who want to destroy your base and take your stuff, you're surviving against players in a node, that want to destroy your node and take your stuff. Ashes is more like Rust than it is like final fantasy or wow. You can't just go topple stormwind if your rep with orgrimmar is high enough. And then org goes to some destroyed state when you need to rebuild it. Whereas that is the fundamental design of Ashes. It's an ever changing world based on social groups and player behavior. That's what Rust is. Wow's base world hasn't changed in like 10 years since cata, it doesn't allow players to shape it in anyway. Shifting sands was probably the last major time they tried anything like that.

    The mechanics are incredibly similar, from questing systems, crafting systems, raids/monuments, naval combat, trade between groups, moving resources in a heli vs moving them in a caravan, killing players in certain areas makes you kos for safe zone guards vs corruption, event/heli, market/vending machine and scrap, you collect resources and upgrade your base/node, you pick a server and your character is on that server with its built in progression etc. The only thing that's really different in a fundamental way is the building system and that isn't that different as you essentially have that mechanic built into other systems in a more controlled and determined way. Instead of your lead or builder determining how the base develops your mayor does it.

    If anything Ashes will be more of a survival game than Rust is due to higher mob density and the increased likelihood that they will kill you. And also people will use bows more in Ashes than they do in Rust. Prim is dead after like 2 hours of playing rust anyway so thinking it's this game where you chase boars around to get food or you will die is just based on ignorance. You might kill 1 boar 1 time if your spawn is awful to get a starter furnace but after that all you are doing is recycling and fueling a refinery. No one drinks water for the bar they drink water to get rid of rads at launch, people don't eat food for the bar, they have food to spam after they med to get more health faster. If people are low on either they just f1 kill. The definitions of genres don't really mean anything anymore, every game has aspects of many many different genres so saying this is an mmo and this is a survival game this is a fps is just so people get a rough idea of what the game is not what it is in it's entirety. Is wow and mmo? Sure for some people. Other people just stay as a neutral panda and farm herbs in the starter zone all they way to level cap. So for them it's a gathering simulator. Other people sit in the goldshire inn on moonguard erping with people so for them it's a p*rn game. Other people just ride in circles in dalran all day on their motorcycle for literally hours, so for them it's a single player driving simulator. Is it really an mmorpg if you've never rollplayed? Probably more than 50% of people who have played mmorpgs have never rollplayed. Iv done more rollplay in csgo than in wow. Does that make csgo an fpsrpg?

  • GandalfthegrapeGandalfthegrape Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Vaknar wrote: »
    "Part of the whole experience with nodes is that there is no real end-game, in that the world is constantly shifting every day. Month one is going to be really different from month two, and that's for the level 50s and level 1s. – Jeffrey Bard"

    "We want the game to be a living game, which means that all content should be relevant at all times. I’d say that we try to make as little distinction between the leveling-up experience and the end-game experience as possible. The whole journey is important to us, in order to maximize the fun people have during different stages of the game. – Sarah Flanagan"

    I wanted to share these quotes from this page of the wiki: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/End_game

    The world of Verra is ever-changing and evolving. The way players and events interact with the world should abolish the need to reset servers to have fun! :)

    I'm sorry but design and how the game ends up working aren't the same thing. This isn't Arda where a Maiar's words determine reality. If you look at other games that have similar mechanics and they inevitably lead to player behavior in one direction it's incredibly likely that if another game has those same mechanics the path the game will take will likely be in the same direction. If another game/s have already created mechanics that solve those problems, it makes sense to implement those mechanics before the game launches so the player base isn't shocked by a sudden change in design. That's why there are alphas and betas. That's why they just changed the world size and node count. They tested the game and the original design didn't work so they changed it. They didn't wait till after the game launched to fix it.
  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think it would be better to start one or two new servers a year than to have a server reset event
  • Ph0bosPh0bos Member, Alpha Two
    I dont like the idea of yearly wipes, or any wipes at all for the matter. I think there is something nice in building your character and your guild for the future of the MMO.
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  • unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    You had your game that did that. It was called Crowfall. Kickstarter funded. Went to completion. Came out. And not even their backers cared enough to play it. The wipe and reset mindset that some like to preach, similar to the "fresh start servers always!" is a failed business model. Crowfail got sold to a backer in under a year for what they could get, and then that backer (another purported game dev with deep pockets) just closed it months later. New World just tried it and killed their base yet again. Giving everyone fresh start servers fixed none of their underlying issues, and just caused more people to quit once the lemmings all ran to fresh start, killing the previous servers in the process. No one wants to regrind chopping 10k trees just because Timmy can't take a region from the big bois.
    south-park-rabble-rabble-rabbl-53b58d315aa49.jpg
  • DiamahtDiamaht Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    No, no wipe cycles. New servers from time to time maybe. For example Im having fun starting fresh on the new NA Data Center on FFXIV. But that game is ten years old
  • this would be a terrible game design for what AoC is trying to accomplish. most players would quit the game before the wipe and possibly never come back. AoC has content for everyone no one guild will seriously maintain that much power over a server its unlikely for one group. even an alliance caps out at 1,200 players thats around 12% of the server and getting all 1200 players online at one time will be near impossible. so if a group is dominating a server the rest of the server just needs to work together. the only guilds that benefit from taxes are castle owners. and taxes are carried by NPC caravans. so if you work with the server you can stop all taxes from getting to the *dominating* clan this deletes some of the taxes and gives your group some of the income. you dont need to own the castle to win.
  • novercalisnovercalis Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I love the concept of wipes / fresh start BUT I do not think that concept can work with AoC.

    2) majority of players will absolute hate wipes. Almost every player will want to cling to their LITTLE PIXELS like Republicans clinging to their guns. Aint no way they are gonna be cool with wipes. Even in P99 - as much as they would benefit from wiping the server - ppl are raging just at the sheer notion of it. Whereas official EQ - decided to create TLP servers and after X amount of years and/or population threshold, merges old ones and even those players got salty n rage quit because of their pixels disappeared
    {UPK} United Player Killer - All your loot belongs to us.
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