(I think they can't consider that Infringement, right?)
I AM now more 'supportive' of Weakness/Brink of Death though. I don't mind Resurrection being easy, it's 'getting back into the fight quickly afterward' that I think is a problem. Not necessarily a problem for every source of Resurrection, but certainly for Item ones.
Even if they don't stack, it's an issue. FFXI solves this by having the 'Rare/EX' tag for items (can't be traded, can't hold more than one), to prevent people from just 'bringing a character whose job is to keep reviving people', but I don't know if that would fit in Ashes well.
(I think they can't consider that Infringement, right?)
I AM now more 'supportive' of Weakness/Brink of Death though. I don't mind Resurrection being easy, it's 'getting back into the fight quickly afterward' that I think is a problem. Not necessarily a problem for every source of Resurrection, but certainly for Item ones.
Even if they don't stack, it's an issue. FFXI solves this by having the 'Rare/EX' tag for items (can't be traded, can't hold more than one), to prevent people from just 'bringing a character whose job is to keep reviving people', but I don't know if that would fit in Ashes well.
It is going to be interesting to see how it is with it being open dungeons and all. I guess first question is what limitations are they planning on having. Quick is a pretty large question itself with all elements of it.
Imo everyone should be able to do out of combat resurrection with the usage of a consumable item, in combat resurrection should be reserved for the healer classes. In either case the resurrected player should not be 100% combat ready for several seconds or more.
The way I imagine the in combat resurrection to work is a long casting very long cooldown ability for Cleric's that have heavily invested in the Life magic tree and the resurrected player only gets back X% of HP and Y% of MP while getting a damage debuff for a the next few seconds.
Also it would be cool for clerics that have invested heavily in the Death magic tree like dark clerics and necromancers, instead of getting an in combat resurrection they get the ability to raise their team as undead creatures for a limited amount of time and with a limited amount of undead flavored abilities.
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FantmxMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I highly dislike the idea of items taking the place of important class skills. I appreciate that there will be variations and that the class skills will be more preferred than the items but I'm not a big fan of this.
@uncounted opened up an interesting train of thought. What if some class, like a Cleric, which had invested sufficiently in Death magic could gain a spell to cast on enemies which would make the enemy unable to be resurrected by life magic? In other words, cast this dark spell on an enemy prior to the enemy's death, then if they die within a few minutes they must click the 'go to town' button and cannot be resurrected by another player or an item?
Got the answer. Hell yeah. Not only items, but even levels of it.
Did we get the answer? Maybe I missed it. Your question in this post is specifically regarding resurrection "in combat." The question on the stream was just about resurrection, unless I missed something.
Steven's answer stated that there will be scrolls of resurrection. I didn't hear him say these scrolls can be used in combat. I personally suspect, and hope, that a battle rez will only be possible with a cleric, and maybe a bard.
Possibly, even likely, a resurrection in combat is the highest level of resurrection, and not something a scroll can accomplish.
Please correct me if I missed the answer to your question.
My OP says that I'm gonna ask about rez items and that was the question that got answered. The "in combat" part was purely a community feel thing. As others here said, alpha1 already had combat rez. Intrepid might still change that, but that's gonna be a thing to test in alpha2.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
All for only a select few classes types have rez capability.. keeps the pvp interesting.
Have the rez class in your group, they are a quick target by your enemy or a priority to protect and keep alive.. fun times!
Eh, ttk got no balance. Rez cd should definitely depend on it though, 1 cast from 1 healer per 5-10 min battle should be fine (or maybe 2-3 casts, if they depend on synergy from several clerics).
Eh, ttk got no balance. Rez cd should definitely depend on it though, 1 cast from 1 healer per 5-10 min battle should be fine (or maybe 2-3 casts, if they depend on synergy from several clerics).
Nothing is really balanced, but its still true that that is around where they want it to be.
Nothing is really balanced, but its still true that that is around where they want it to be.
I feel like it should be quite a bit slower, but we won't know either till waay later in A2.
They said that is around where they want it, so that is where i see it going into alpha 2. It may be a little bit slower but not much, and by end game things will be different (which you won't know till launch).
Something i mentioned about using active skills and movement abilities to increase the ttk with survivability. So people cant focus target archer sniper you instantly if you can react in time.
Which adds to a more higher skill ceiling and not tab target = easy shot and win.
to be fair, the TTK is kind of reasonable when you are outnumbered like that. Plus, steven said it was on the faster side of their "range" they are shooting for, so i expect balance to move towards slowing it down a bit.
Ya rewatching parts of it ttk is pretty fine I agree with it. Combat is a bit faster you aren't waiting one 1 second global CDS. And 5 people attacked one guy and killed him in 5 seconds.
So when some people are talking about ttk being too fast I feel like they don't know what they are talking about tbh. Faster game + entire group of people attacking a single person, there should be no world where you think you get to fight for 60 second.
We aren't even talking about people having builds or anything special either at this point, people and their builds will only get stronger and spec in different elements of protection.
And why i said before having mobility and a way to dodge is huge and adds skill level (just don't make it spammable).
So when some people are talking about ttk being too fast I feel like they don't know what they are talking about tbh. Faster game + entire group of people attacking a single person, there should be no world where you think you get to fight for 60 second.
Yeah, I mentioned that in my feedback. Current ttk is low because we don't have proper heals/defenses. But I feel like the problem is that this is the aimed time.
I'd personally prefer if characters could live through a single strong salvo from several enemies (in the context of proper defensive buffing). Mainly because not living through it will simply lead to the stuff George was talking about a few months back. Ranged groups who assist-kill anyone on sight, simply because you wouldn't even be able to react before they one-shot half of your group and then you simply cannot respond to them.
So when some people are talking about ttk being too fast I feel like they don't know what they are talking about tbh. Faster game + entire group of people attacking a single person, there should be no world where you think you get to fight for 60 second.
Yeah, I mentioned that in my feedback. Current ttk is low because we don't have proper heals/defenses. But I feel like the problem is that this is the aimed time.
I'd personally prefer if characters could live through a single strong salvo from several enemies (in the context of proper defensive buffing). Mainly because not living through it will simply lead to the stuff George was talking about a few months back. Ranged groups who assist-kill anyone on sight, simply because you wouldn't even be able to react before they one-shot half of your group and then you simply cannot respond to them.
This is why i advocate for skill over tab target which increases difficulty of things overall and also allows players to react more strongly. Lets say archers can all target you and blow you up instant with focus, even if you reduce all dmg the issue of them doing it persist it doesn't really change anything.
That is why range is always op on tab target. What is currently the aimed time is most likely being taken out of context as their context would have more fair groups, not the context we see where they took away their healers and other characters so they would lose.
This scenario happens in any mmorpgs old / new fighting 26-11 (and the 11 having no set up, lack of healers, lack of support, no builds, lower levels, lack of skills). Fight ends fast.
So when some people are talking about ttk being too fast I feel like they don't know what they are talking about tbh. Faster game + entire group of people attacking a single person, there should be no world where you think you get to fight for 60 second.
Yeah, I mentioned that in my feedback. Current ttk is low because we don't have proper heals/defenses. But I feel like the problem is that this is the aimed time.
I'd personally prefer if characters could live through a single strong salvo from several enemies (in the context of proper defensive buffing). Mainly because not living through it will simply lead to the stuff George was talking about a few months back. Ranged groups who assist-kill anyone on sight, simply because you wouldn't even be able to react before they one-shot half of your group and then you simply cannot respond to them.
I've done half the analysis, if it is relevant at all.
The current TTK isn't because of proper heals or defenses. If anything, with their current design, this is only going to get worse.
By that, I mean that players will keep finding ways to pull the TTK down and the Devs will struggle to keep it from going any lower than it is now. Or, we're gonna get another BDO/gear carried situation.
In the next dev q&a thread I'm gonna be asking whether we'll have an item that lets us resurrect other players
Characters can be resurrected via abilities and scrolls - https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Resurrection_methods
I'm seeing a lot of interesting thoughts being brought to this thread! Some seem to refer to single-character resurrection, while others are specifically mentioning mass or group resurrection.
I'd love to hear specific thoughts on all forms of resurrection, whether individual or mass; in-combat or out-of-combat!
How would you like these scrolls and/or abilities to work? What are your thoughts and concerns with your own and others' suggestions?
Great post, @NiKr
NiKr, does this compare to L2, for you? I'm trying to figure out where the baseline design for this came from.
It doesn't look like AA (the good period) to me, it doesn't look like Alpha-1, it doesn't look like L2 (to me). It's probably bias, but it mostly looks like BDO, but with less skill requirement.
Even if we were to say 'but balance will matter', it can't matter in the WAY being referred to, you're never going to be unable to take these specific group types, or probably unable to build these abilities. I guess they could make them all weaker, but that would only make it 'balanced', not 'fun' or 'strategic'.
So, what is this? Is this a natural evolution of L2, but explicitly with all the problems George said would happen? Just your gut feeling is fine.
I like when there is different quality of reses. Cleric with 100% res with maybe a Sheild. Can be done in battle. On a separate cool down and also a lower quality res on a shorter cool down other suport class get below.
Other support classes have res from 40% to 80% hp on res. No shield and some support class with battle res and other support specs only having a res outside combat. So the pure support classes get help after a battle as well.
First they have to remove all the stuff 'they have answered already and can just be wiki linked', then 'stuff that has incredibly simple answers (at least some of them), then the questions they can't answer yet (there's no point to those, I still get those too).
So I learned 'which questions won't get answered'. I have a lot of other questions, but I know they won't get answered so I don't ask them, because it's not the type of random where they will 'pick my question and then say they don't have an answer', unless it's important for the community to know that there isn't any answer.
NiKr's questions are similar. Beyond that, it's your confirmation bias.
And as Vaknar points out above, Intrepid is actually interested in this topic, so answering the question helps them too. It just didn't get into the random selection for the last 2 streams, so it would have been the usual 'We wanted to, but didn't have time to answer this, please ask again'.
Got any data for Vaknar that you haven't given already, about the thread topic?
EDIT: Dammit I missed the chance to structure this post around how it's a Pareto Distribution...
What's your opinion on the title's mechanic, both in terms of a healer ability and as a theoretical item that you could use to res someone in combat. In the next dev q&a thread I'm gonna be asking whether we'll have an item that lets us resurrect other players, but before that I wanted to see what was the general opinion on this particular interaction of resurrection.
I would personally prefer if we did have such an item and that we could res in combat. This would help with any potential player attacks during your pve and would also make pvp itself longer, which imo is fun
It could be argued that this would trivialize pve, but we've yet to see how difficult the general pve will be. And for any instanced truly difficult stuff we could just have a block on any res, if that's what Intrepid wants.
But yeah, what's your opinion on resurrection during combat?
A spell thats expensive and time consuming to cast with a long cool down would be fine. Its something that you could use to recover from a bad fight but the long cast time means you'd have to create an opening for it.
Items I'm not so sure about. They would be stock piled and spammed for sure. That singular mechanic would be the thing you'd have to burn through in order to get to a battles conclution. It would potentially take over the early stages of any pvp encounter.
What's your opinion on the title's mechanic, both in terms of a healer ability and as a theoretical item that you could use to res someone in combat. In the next dev q&a thread I'm gonna be asking whether we'll have an item that lets us resurrect other players, but before that I wanted to see what was the general opinion on this particular interaction of resurrection.
I would personally prefer if we did have such an item and that we could res in combat. This would help with any potential player attacks during your pve and would also make pvp itself longer, which imo is fun
It could be argued that this would trivialize pve, but we've yet to see how difficult the general pve will be. And for any instanced truly difficult stuff we could just have a block on any res, if that's what Intrepid wants.
But yeah, what's your opinion on resurrection during combat?
its hard to say without playing the game or seeing other systems.
for example, can i res you during a caravan event if we are participating? castle siege? node war?
out in the vacuum, id like to see a res during combat, but not l2 level of opness. maybe a 5 seconds cast time and 30-60 secs cd and cant be ressed during pvp events.
mass res with a fairly long cooldown. maybe it can put a debuff on people who get ressed like this so they cant be ressed again for 5 minutes or something?
res items? nah. maybe only outside of combat, with a loooong cast time, like 30 seconds or so.
ied like to see a death prevention mechanic. something like the summoner can link his pet to a party member, and if that party member dies, the pet dies instead.
Comments
(I think they can't consider that Infringement, right?)
I AM now more 'supportive' of Weakness/Brink of Death though. I don't mind Resurrection being easy, it's 'getting back into the fight quickly afterward' that I think is a problem. Not necessarily a problem for every source of Resurrection, but certainly for Item ones.
Even if they don't stack, it's an issue. FFXI solves this by having the 'Rare/EX' tag for items (can't be traded, can't hold more than one), to prevent people from just 'bringing a character whose job is to keep reviving people', but I don't know if that would fit in Ashes well.
It is going to be interesting to see how it is with it being open dungeons and all. I guess first question is what limitations are they planning on having. Quick is a pretty large question itself with all elements of it.
in combat resurrection should be reserved for the healer classes. In either case the resurrected player should not be 100% combat ready for several seconds or more.
The way I imagine the in combat resurrection to work is a long casting very long cooldown ability for Cleric's that have heavily invested in the Life magic tree and the resurrected player only gets back X% of HP and Y% of MP while getting a damage debuff for a the next few seconds.
Also it would be cool for clerics that have invested heavily in the Death magic tree like dark clerics and necromancers, instead of getting an in combat resurrection they get the ability to raise their team as undead creatures for a limited amount of time and with a limited amount of undead flavored abilities.
Did we get the answer? Maybe I missed it. Your question in this post is specifically regarding resurrection "in combat." The question on the stream was just about resurrection, unless I missed something.
Steven's answer stated that there will be scrolls of resurrection. I didn't hear him say these scrolls can be used in combat. I personally suspect, and hope, that a battle rez will only be possible with a cleric, and maybe a bard.
Possibly, even likely, a resurrection in combat is the highest level of resurrection, and not something a scroll can accomplish.
Please correct me if I missed the answer to your question.
Have the rez class in your group, they are a quick target by your enemy or a priority to protect and keep alive.. fun times!
jk, but Steven confirmed combat mass rez
Ya i saw, the kill times are fast atleast.
Nothing is really balanced, but its still true that that is around where they want it to be.
They said that is around where they want it, so that is where i see it going into alpha 2. It may be a little bit slower but not much, and by end game things will be different (which you won't know till launch).
Something i mentioned about using active skills and movement abilities to increase the ttk with survivability. So people cant focus target archer sniper you instantly if you can react in time.
Which adds to a more higher skill ceiling and not tab target = easy shot and win.
So when some people are talking about ttk being too fast I feel like they don't know what they are talking about tbh. Faster game + entire group of people attacking a single person, there should be no world where you think you get to fight for 60 second.
We aren't even talking about people having builds or anything special either at this point, people and their builds will only get stronger and spec in different elements of protection.
And why i said before having mobility and a way to dodge is huge and adds skill level (just don't make it spammable).
I'd personally prefer if characters could live through a single strong salvo from several enemies (in the context of proper defensive buffing). Mainly because not living through it will simply lead to the stuff George was talking about a few months back. Ranged groups who assist-kill anyone on sight, simply because you wouldn't even be able to react before they one-shot half of your group and then you simply cannot respond to them.
This is why i advocate for skill over tab target which increases difficulty of things overall and also allows players to react more strongly. Lets say archers can all target you and blow you up instant with focus, even if you reduce all dmg the issue of them doing it persist it doesn't really change anything.
That is why range is always op on tab target. What is currently the aimed time is most likely being taken out of context as their context would have more fair groups, not the context we see where they took away their healers and other characters so they would lose.
This scenario happens in any mmorpgs old / new fighting 26-11 (and the 11 having no set up, lack of healers, lack of support, no builds, lower levels, lack of skills). Fight ends fast.
I've done half the analysis, if it is relevant at all.
The current TTK isn't because of proper heals or defenses. If anything, with their current design, this is only going to get worse.
By that, I mean that players will keep finding ways to pull the TTK down and the Devs will struggle to keep it from going any lower than it is now. Or, we're gonna get another BDO/gear carried situation.
Well, that's just a theory...
Characters can be resurrected via abilities and scrolls - https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Resurrection_methods
I'm seeing a lot of interesting thoughts being brought to this thread! Some seem to refer to single-character resurrection, while others are specifically mentioning mass or group resurrection.
I'd love to hear specific thoughts on all forms of resurrection, whether individual or mass; in-combat or out-of-combat!
How would you like these scrolls and/or abilities to work? What are your thoughts and concerns with your own and others' suggestions?
Great post, @NiKr
NiKr, does this compare to L2, for you? I'm trying to figure out where the baseline design for this came from.
It doesn't look like AA (the good period) to me, it doesn't look like Alpha-1, it doesn't look like L2 (to me). It's probably bias, but it mostly looks like BDO, but with less skill requirement.
Even if we were to say 'but balance will matter', it can't matter in the WAY being referred to, you're never going to be unable to take these specific group types, or probably unable to build these abilities. I guess they could make them all weaker, but that would only make it 'balanced', not 'fun' or 'strategic'.
So, what is this? Is this a natural evolution of L2, but explicitly with all the problems George said would happen? Just your gut feeling is fine.
Other support classes have res from 40% to 80% hp on res. No shield and some support class with battle res and other support specs only having a res outside combat. So the pure support classes get help after a battle as well.
First they have to remove all the stuff 'they have answered already and can just be wiki linked', then 'stuff that has incredibly simple answers (at least some of them), then the questions they can't answer yet (there's no point to those, I still get those too).
So I learned 'which questions won't get answered'. I have a lot of other questions, but I know they won't get answered so I don't ask them, because it's not the type of random where they will 'pick my question and then say they don't have an answer', unless it's important for the community to know that there isn't any answer.
NiKr's questions are similar. Beyond that, it's your confirmation bias.
And as Vaknar points out above, Intrepid is actually interested in this topic, so answering the question helps them too. It just didn't get into the random selection for the last 2 streams, so it would have been the usual 'We wanted to, but didn't have time to answer this, please ask again'.
Got any data for Vaknar that you haven't given already, about the thread topic?
EDIT: Dammit I missed the chance to structure this post around how it's a Pareto Distribution...
A spell thats expensive and time consuming to cast with a long cool down would be fine. Its something that you could use to recover from a bad fight but the long cast time means you'd have to create an opening for it.
Items I'm not so sure about. They would be stock piled and spammed for sure. That singular mechanic would be the thing you'd have to burn through in order to get to a battles conclution. It would potentially take over the early stages of any pvp encounter.
Edit: woops double responce to all this, sorry
its hard to say without playing the game or seeing other systems.
for example, can i res you during a caravan event if we are participating? castle siege? node war?
out in the vacuum, id like to see a res during combat, but not l2 level of opness. maybe a 5 seconds cast time and 30-60 secs cd and cant be ressed during pvp events.
mass res with a fairly long cooldown. maybe it can put a debuff on people who get ressed like this so they cant be ressed again for 5 minutes or something?
res items? nah. maybe only outside of combat, with a loooong cast time, like 30 seconds or so.
ied like to see a death prevention mechanic. something like the summoner can link his pet to a party member, and if that party member dies, the pet dies instead.