I am having a hard time understanding what you've written @Azherae
I believe everyone is free to value what they choose and base their assumption accordingly. The popularity of Lineage 2 might be irrelevant for you but it might be relevant for me. And as two separate individuals, we do not need to force our perspectives and values onto others. If you cannot lead such type of discussion, it is alright. Everyone has limitations.
You're quite right, I am still working on being able to have conversations of this type, I'll disengage.
I am afraid we have significantly different understanding of what is boring healer gameplay.
Nothing shown so far suggests that Cleric will have much more going on in their kits. On the contrary, Intrepid has had 6 years of development time and all they showcased was one single target heal, two aoe heals and one CC. While Mage, on the other hand, feels and looks like fully developed archetype at least for an alpha.
Maybe you haven't tried out healers in MMOs so you may miss the obvious lack of dedication towards this archetype.
Also, thanks for the recommendations but if you had read the OP closely you would have known that I will be playing what is efficient which most likely is going to be mage.
P.S. Congratz on becoming a parent
Keep in mind, while the game may have been announced to the world about 6 years ago, the first few years of it's "development" that you claim is 6 years long at this point was actually building out the team, building tools, network code, engine, all that kind of thing.
The actual games development has been going on for far less time than that, and class development even less.
We also know that the healer showcase was of the the first pass of healers, and the mage showcase was after a second pass.
The mage is the only class we have seen in a second pass stage, which is why you are saying it looks much better.
we also saw about 10 skills for the cleric during alpha 1...and also a few skills during trailer. most of these skills will probably make a comeback.
we've only seen about 1/3 of the skills of cleric/mage/tank lol and we haven't seen the augments yet. so wait a lil longer till you complain about healer not doing x or y
However, If you go over what they offer to players who are interested in Clerics you will see that situation is fundamentally different.
I personally haven't experienced abilities like these.
You have damaging abilities that start by healing yourself and then can be upgraded to party heals. You have a chain heal that interacts with an archetype-based mechanic and gives a cleansing trigger for other healing abilities. You have a heal that interacts with that same mechanic and gives temp health to targets. A "why are you hitting yourself" attack. A dmg+heal aoe that can be turned into a soft CC and a buff. And a heal/dmg ability that interact with the archetype mechanic.
And those are just a few abilities that we've seen so far. Hell, pretty much all other archetypes have a more mechanically basic skillset rn than this imo. And they also don't differ too much from what I've already seen/played in other games, while I haven't seen stuff like this on healers. And again, this is still just <15lvl stuff (allegedly) that's early in development.
I feel a secondary method of Resurrection is required in a pvx game. Otherwise you would just focus all the healers down and no one can res. I realise healers are focused anyway but a method to res a healer without another healer is good.
I am afraid we have significantly different understanding of what is boring healer gameplay.
Nothing shown so far suggests that Cleric will have much more going on in their kits. On the contrary, Intrepid has had 6 years of development time and all they showcased was one single target heal, two aoe heals and one CC. While Mage, on the other hand, feels and looks like fully developed archetype at least for an alpha.
Maybe you haven't tried out healers in MMOs so you may miss the obvious lack of dedication towards this archetype.
Also, thanks for the recommendations but if you had read the OP closely you would have known that I will be playing what is efficient which most likely is going to be mage.
P.S. Congratz on becoming a parent
Oh, I've played more than my fair share of MMOs - usually as DPS main though. My favorite healer in WoW is the paladin (glimmer build), so I thought the cleric seemed just fine.
I've raided in server competative Guild with both holy/disc priest in Cata/MoP and mistweaver in Legion c: I've also played supportive specs in GW2 (Druid and guardian are my favorites in WvW), but they are a bit different from standard MMO healers. Also played healer inqusitor in SWTOR, but that was very briefly.
I understand what you mean regarding the cleric considering the amount of showcased abilities, but I am fairly confident that they will bring more abilities to A2. They talked on Stream about how they only want to showcase relatively "done" abilities, so perhaps the cleric had plenty of abilities that were still WIP.
Either way, I would not despair just yet. I am sure there will be a class (*archetype+subclass) that will match your desired gameplay. Then all you have to do is maximize it to reach the level you want to play at! :] (one can reach Challenger maining anything, provided you have the patience to learn it well enough.)
You have st and aoe dps spells, some instant others not, dot, stun, root, cc dispel & immunity, normal heals, burst heals, regen heals, st & aoe cleanse, temporary buffs, constant buffs, stats tradeoff abilities, chain spells, AoE resurrection, self-ress, elemental states, healing and damaging summons, and the list goes on. This is the first MMORPG I have played in my life.
And from that list up to lvl16 (just cause it skips 3lvls) I only saw some super basic buffs/passives, basic heals and damaging abilities. The only "special" thing on that list up to lvl16 is the holy spirit thing, but Ashes is trying to keep those kinds of archetype overspill in the augments.
Again, what we've seen is a skillset up to lvl15 that is also in the alpha stage of development. You're comparing a finished game's full list with what we have right now in Ashes. If that comparison seems logical and fine to you - I got nothing else to add to this discussion.
The last thing I can say is that I'd agree with you if Intrepid just gave us a complete list of planned mechanics/abilities for all archetypes (or even just cleric) and that list looked worse than aion's (or any other game's). But from comparing that list's 16lvls with AoC's - I prefer AoC, cause it already has more variety in its gameplay.
I feel a secondary method of Resurrection is required in a pvx game. Otherwise you would just focus all the healers down and no one can res
Why is this a bad thing? If respawning is such a big hassle in this game make it more convenient through an archetype that can create respawn points. Actually, give it to the Cleric and remove default spawn points in Castle Sieges and Nodes assaults. Dying is inconvenient and we are doing a lot to lessen its effects.
It's a bad thing because not all pvp locations and dungeons have a res pad nearby. If you get nuked in a contested dungeon and all your healers have been killed without warning then the res scrolls would be a boon.
To start off, judging from what was revealed about the cleric archetype in the latest showcase I am assuming that nothing revolutionary is planned for the class.
I'm used to a combat res on a Conqueror - a Melee fighter, and a Loremaster - a wizard. I don't see resurrection as solely a healer's job and in fact, most healers i've played haven't had resurrection spells which is why I'd rather have other abilities in place due to the resurrection scrolls.
I made my conclusion after observing the amount of thought and effort put into the Mage's archetype before getting showcased
Even within this context, cleric showcase had literally 1/4 the amount of abilities compared to mage's showcase (1/3 if we remove the fire spells that weren't really shown). So you're assuming and extrapolating based on limited info from an already limited info that was also on first pass, while mage was mostly on second.
That's like walking along a car assembling line, seeing just the wheels, comparing those wheels to a full car skeleton on wheels and saying "well those wheels make a shitty car! just look at that full skeleton on wheels, that's a much better vehicle". And when the silliness of that comparison gets brought up, you then compare those very wheels to a whole damn car and say "those wheels can never be a full car, they'll stay at that same level of development forever".
Though even that is a bad comparison, cause Intrepid most likely has much more than just the "wheels". They just won't show that to us exactly because of all the people that compare wheels to full damn cars.
So what exactly is a 'Combat Rez' to people? What is the purpose of it?
I am on the same page that I don't fully understand the OP's perspective in their response.
But to address your question here, I suspect you are looking at this from more of a PVP perspective? In a PVE scenario a combat rez can be a game changer. In a raid, if your tank goes down (or even a dps if you're in a high end raid), it's a wipe without a battle rez. Your entire party is in-combat and a normal resurrection isn't possible. But a battle rez just might make the difference that allows you to take down the boss. There have been many many times when battle rez saved our raid. But all of this seems obvious so maybe I missed your point?
Though even that is a bad comparison, cause Intrepid most likely has much more than just the "wheels". They just won't show that to us exactly because of all the people that compare wheels to full damn cars.
I think the realization of a certain underlying issue seems to omit you.
When a role's essential purpose is restricted to providing sustain and you build your game with that information in mind there is very little room left for any creative approach towards designing interesting gameplay. What are you going to give Cleric players as they level up and advance in the game? More heals.
Have you ever played healers in games? Healing is done in response to a target receiving damage. The act of healing is reactive, never proactive. With that very limitation in mind, there is little you can give a healing role in terms of abilities, spells, and passives. It is all going to boil down to more heals. When I see on my hotbar a spell that does burst heal, a spell that does st regen heal, and a spell that does normal heal, I see three different buttons on separate cooldowns that do the exact same thing at a different rate.
Gating heals behind combos, mechanics or conditions is always going to feel terrible and out of place because of the very nature of healing. You are always in a state of responding to what others near you do. You do not control the fight. Combos and procs are out of the question. Every second spent in combat you need to plan anew how to use whatever you have remaining. So what you are left with is resource management. A resource is your HP bar, MP bar, cooldowns, and then class specific. The only place where developers could get really creative is class-specific resource management.
Mind you, none was shown in the showcase but I am not concerned about that.
The previously mentioned role limitations must be taken into consideration when developing a class-specific resource management system otherwise it is not going to play out well. Not well at all. In fact, it will lead to a lot of frustration if the method through which you obtain your class-specific resources conflicts with the way you are supposed to play your role. So in almost all cases, the class-specific resource system ends up being nothing more than a mere echo of what you are already doing.
With all of that said, there is virtually nothing original Intrepid could come up with that is going to excite players who have spent countless hours perfecting their gameplay as healers with the current route they have taken.
I would just like to reassure you, NiKr, that none of this is true for me whatsoever and FFXI doesn't work this way.
I don't really agree with anything Niem has to say on the subject, and I think I've mentioned to you how long I've been healing.
Same to Intrepid. You'll never satisfy all healers, but I'm fine.
I have to say, there are proactive and active heals. It all depends on mana management. The devs have made a reactive cleric which can't be proactive. Then they nerfed the instant heals and turned the heals to cast timers.
I do feel there is room for proactive and active heals. I just haven't seen these aspects in the limited build. Can't wait to see the updated Cleric or phase 2 Cleric. We gave a lot of feedback in the thread.
I would just like to reassure you, NiKr, that none of this is true for me whatsoever and FFXI doesn't work this way.
I don't really agree with anything Niem has to say on the subject, and I think I've mentioned to you how long I've been healing.
Same to Intrepid. You'll never satisfy all healers, but I'm fine.
Yeah, I figured as much. Even L2's healers could dictate the flow of the battle through sleeps, mana burns, buff bans (blocking particular buffs) and even just basic movement. If anything, the healer is the one who controls the fight (at least in pvp), because they're the main target and the enemy will have to react to whatever the healer does.
And saying "Intrepid can't do shit" after seeing 4 fucking abilities is just insane to me, so on this I'm gonna be gone from this thread for good
It's worth noting that many systems of Ashes of Creation, such as augments and classes, along with gear and many other things may change the way you play. This stream, as well as the last Cleric stream, showcased some updates, but not the complete picture of what a player will be able to do! ^_^
We would not implement a Scroll of Resurrection if it couldn't be balanced. Our design team has many years of experience and knowledge working on and playing MMORPGs, and will make sure to get it right!
I am afraid we have significantly different understanding of what is boring healer gameplay.
Nothing shown so far suggests that Cleric will have much more going on in their kits. On the contrary, Intrepid has had 6 years of development time and all they showcased was one single target heal, two aoe heals and one CC. While Mage, on the other hand, feels and looks like fully developed archetype at least for an alpha.
Maybe you haven't tried out healers in MMOs so you may miss the obvious lack of dedication towards this archetype.
Also, thanks for the recommendations but if you had read the OP closely you would have known that I will be playing what is efficient which most likely is going to be mage.
P.S. Congratz on becoming a parent
Please be transparent on 6 years of development. You are going to make conversation go in a way it doesn't need to go. I really shouldn't have to explain they aren't spending 6 years of development/ pre production on a class...
Comments
You're quite right, I am still working on being able to have conversations of this type, I'll disengage.
Aren't we all sinners?
Keep in mind, while the game may have been announced to the world about 6 years ago, the first few years of it's "development" that you claim is 6 years long at this point was actually building out the team, building tools, network code, engine, all that kind of thing.
The actual games development has been going on for far less time than that, and class development even less.
We also know that the healer showcase was of the the first pass of healers, and the mage showcase was after a second pass.
The mage is the only class we have seen in a second pass stage, which is why you are saying it looks much better.
we've only seen about 1/3 of the skills of cleric/mage/tank lol and we haven't seen the augments yet. so wait a lil longer till you complain about healer not doing x or y
You have damaging abilities that start by healing yourself and then can be upgraded to party heals. You have a chain heal that interacts with an archetype-based mechanic and gives a cleansing trigger for other healing abilities. You have a heal that interacts with that same mechanic and gives temp health to targets. A "why are you hitting yourself" attack. A dmg+heal aoe that can be turned into a soft CC and a buff. And a heal/dmg ability that interact with the archetype mechanic.
And those are just a few abilities that we've seen so far. Hell, pretty much all other archetypes have a more mechanically basic skillset rn than this imo. And they also don't differ too much from what I've already seen/played in other games, while I haven't seen stuff like this on healers. And again, this is still just <15lvl stuff (allegedly) that's early in development.
I guess you've played more games than me so could you give a few examples that are as interesting (or more) than the stuff in the screenshot?
Oh, I've played more than my fair share of MMOs - usually as DPS main though. My favorite healer in WoW is the paladin (glimmer build), so I thought the cleric seemed just fine.
I've raided in server competative Guild with both holy/disc priest in Cata/MoP and mistweaver in Legion c: I've also played supportive specs in GW2 (Druid and guardian are my favorites in WvW), but they are a bit different from standard MMO healers. Also played healer inqusitor in SWTOR, but that was very briefly.
I understand what you mean regarding the cleric considering the amount of showcased abilities, but I am fairly confident that they will bring more abilities to A2. They talked on Stream about how they only want to showcase relatively "done" abilities, so perhaps the cleric had plenty of abilities that were still WIP.
Either way, I would not despair just yet. I am sure there will be a class (*archetype+subclass) that will match your desired gameplay. Then all you have to do is maximize it to reach the level you want to play at! :] (one can reach Challenger maining anything, provided you have the patience to learn it well enough.)
P.s thank you very much!
Again, what we've seen is a skillset up to lvl15 that is also in the alpha stage of development. You're comparing a finished game's full list with what we have right now in Ashes. If that comparison seems logical and fine to you - I got nothing else to add to this discussion.
The last thing I can say is that I'd agree with you if Intrepid just gave us a complete list of planned mechanics/abilities for all archetypes (or even just cleric) and that list looked worse than aion's (or any other game's). But from comparing that list's 16lvls with AoC's - I prefer AoC, cause it already has more variety in its gameplay.
It's a bad thing because not all pvp locations and dungeons have a res pad nearby. If you get nuked in a contested dungeon and all your healers have been killed without warning then the res scrolls would be a boon.
That's like walking along a car assembling line, seeing just the wheels, comparing those wheels to a full car skeleton on wheels and saying "well those wheels make a shitty car! just look at that full skeleton on wheels, that's a much better vehicle". And when the silliness of that comparison gets brought up, you then compare those very wheels to a whole damn car and say "those wheels can never be a full car, they'll stay at that same level of development forever".
Though even that is a bad comparison, cause Intrepid most likely has much more than just the "wheels". They just won't show that to us exactly because of all the people that compare wheels to full damn cars.
I am on the same page that I don't fully understand the OP's perspective in their response.
But to address your question here, I suspect you are looking at this from more of a PVP perspective? In a PVE scenario a combat rez can be a game changer. In a raid, if your tank goes down (or even a dps if you're in a high end raid), it's a wipe without a battle rez. Your entire party is in-combat and a normal resurrection isn't possible. But a battle rez just might make the difference that allows you to take down the boss. There have been many many times when battle rez saved our raid. But all of this seems obvious so maybe I missed your point?
I would just like to reassure you, NiKr, that none of this is true for me whatsoever and FFXI doesn't work this way.
I don't really agree with anything Niem has to say on the subject, and I think I've mentioned to you how long I've been healing.
Same to Intrepid. You'll never satisfy all healers, but I'm fine.
I do feel there is room for proactive and active heals. I just haven't seen these aspects in the limited build. Can't wait to see the updated Cleric or phase 2 Cleric. We gave a lot of feedback in the thread.
And saying "Intrepid can't do shit" after seeing 4 fucking abilities is just insane to me, so on this I'm gonna be gone from this thread for good
We would not implement a Scroll of Resurrection if it couldn't be balanced. Our design team has many years of experience and knowledge working on and playing MMORPGs, and will make sure to get it right!
Please be transparent on 6 years of development. You are going to make conversation go in a way it doesn't need to go. I really shouldn't have to explain they aren't spending 6 years of development/ pre production on a class...