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Off-topic Discussions from 'we have a new lead game designer bill trost'
This discussion was created from comments split from: We have a new Lead Game Designer: Bill Trost.
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Ashes in no way has shown signs of being purely PvP or being overly focused on PvP anyways, so that worry seems a bit unfounded to begin with in my opinion.
What I am optimistic about is that the final product that was New World will motivate him to be part of a better project without copy pasted towns, contradicting design choices and such. That paired with Steven being quite firm on how he wants the final game to work and the immense body of experience Trost brings should do for an improved development process.
Yeah it has.
You can play Ashes in the same basic way as you play the above PvP focused games.
You can not play Ashes in the way you would play a PvE focused game.
Now, I'm not suggesting for a second that Intrepid should allow for that type of gameplay, but I absolutely will not sit here and let anyone make such absurd and baseless claims like the comment you made above.
As I have said many times, if Intrepid want Ashes to have long lasting appeal in the West (ie, not Korea), then they need to attract people that are primarily interested in PvE, but are happy to also PvP.
There is nothing at all to suggest that any such player would be interested in this game once it launches.
what are you talking about in what universe L2, AA, BDO or albion are pure PvP mmos? just because PvP isn't only reserved to arenas? god.... please protect us from these PvE guys 🤦🏻♂️
As far as MMORPG's go, they are as PvP as you can get.
See, this is the problem with you PvP focused people. You see anyone that wants more PvE than you as a "PvE guy". You immediately dismiss any such notions. Your assertion that I must be talking about any game in which PvP isn't arena only is a ludicrous jump - there are MANY steps in between those games and arena only PvP.
Again, this is another of those absolutely baseless comments that I am simply unable to leave be. Stop being so utterly ridiculous. Of fucking course there is plenty between open world PvP games like Albion, Archeage, BDO and L2 and arena only games - stop it with the actual and absolute bullshit.
You should know better.
You and Dygz are literally the best possible example I can think of "PvE guys" lol
if you think those are pure pvp games be ready, Ashes is probably going to be your worst nightmare because there is absolutely zero reasons to PvP in BDO's open world, there are safe maps in albion with zero pvp, archege you can 100% play without doing pvp because its faction and maps aren't always in conflict
if by having open world pvp makes it a "pure pvp mmo" than I guess sure, if we are going to make dumb statements like that I can say mortal online 2 is a pure RP game because there are plenty of RP guilds in that game.
But i think after the huge fails of Amazon especially in its ''Gaming Department'' saying that he worked a long time for it doesnt sound like a good thing to me.
And saying he worked on New World makes it even worse the game was really ''flat'' in its RPG elements.
Makes be a bit worried tbh.
Little excerpt from our guild discord about the Pig Rooster thing (the Pooster):
I think that says it all!
I know they don't want extra Alpha testers, but they can still go back to releasing us some awesome cosmetics...
I hope that he wasn't very involved with New World though. I don't expect him to talk shit about that game, but whoever made some of the design decisions for New World should stop making decisions. Saying you've worked on Amazon Games for a long time or, even worse, New World, shouldn't be something you're a proud of.
Great logic my dude.
So which is it, is the game heading too much towards PvE, or is this PvX game even more PvP games even the developers of said games consider PvP?
or were you just talking out your arse in your first post in this thread?
This is only true if you are unable to read.
As I have said many times on these forums, the MMO I have spent the second most amount of time in (a total of about 5 years) is Archeage. I specifically made a point of being the only pirate on the server for a good portion of the time I played - ,making me red to literally everyone on the server in literally every zone in the game.
I'm perfectly at home with PvP. Honestly, more so than most of the "PvP" crowd here.
The thing is, I am also a realist.
That realist in me says that no western AAA MMO will ever last 10+ years (the amount of time I spent in the MMO I have played the longest) without courting a solid core of PvE players.
This is because the thing you need for PvP to function is other players. If you don't have other players, you don't have PvP, you just have P.
The reason for the solution being solid PvE is simple - PvE players are PvP targets.
Players that are focused on PvP tend to leave a game if they are not winning in PvP (there are scientific papers that suggest a person will give up on an activity if they are not successful at least 40% of the time, that tracks with my anecdotal observations). This is why Archage under Trion went from fully packed servers to near empty BEFORE the heavy handed monetization game in, and honestly even before the changes to Thunderstruck Trees went live (if you played Archeage at release, you will know what I am talking about here).
PvP players are just like this, they jump in on a new game, play it for a bit, and unless they are basically running a server they tend to just leave. This is obviously a generalization, but when talking about MMO populations, generalizations are fine to talk about.
A PvE player, on the other hand, will stick in a game if they lose every PvP encounter. They are getting that 40%+ success from PvE - and if that PvE is actually good, they will be mostly fine with that.
A successful PvE player will stick in a game for 10 or more years (something Bill Trost knows all too well from his time at EverQuest). Get those people in an MMO with solid open world PvP, but do so in a way where they are actually happy staying in that game (lets be honest here, the bulk of the PvP crowd on these forums have no idea how to keep a PvE crowd happy), and you have a solid core of players in your game that are targets for your PvP players whom are now winning at PvP more often and thus are going to stay in the game longer.
Now, I have no doubt you won't bother reading the above, and will continue to point to me as being one of the "PvE guys". This is purely because of the lack of staying power PvP players have.
I can't really see that. If one were to solely focus on PvP in Ashes, the mechanics as they are presented up until now make it extremely difficult if not impossible to progress in the way a PvX player (which I would define as the target player base). Node citizenships offer reduced advantages because PvP seems more globalized than the PvE portion of the game. The Castle Nodes need significant "PvE support" to sustain themselves through out the continuous sieges. Caravan raids require a player to be where the desired goods are actually passing through which is something that is subject to change as the "metas" in the different regions change. And equipment primarily is tied to artisan professions which seem to require from all I have read significant commitment in PvE to make timely progress.
Green: Not saying you did. Not sure if I used the word "unfounded" incorrectly? (I thought it is not a very strong word - wasn't meant as an insult or anything)
Orange: The comment the game is not overly focused on PvP is baseless and absurd or what were you referring to? Or on a more general note: Do you think the balance of PvP ad PvE is off?
Agreed, to me it looks like the PvP content of Ashes will primarily function as an "unplanned redistribution" mechanism of PvE acquired resources. Which means that for the game to incentivize player to play long term it needs to make PvE rewarding enough that players will do it despite the loss of portions of their attainments.
I didn't say that Ashes was solely focusing on PvP, I said it was looking to be as PvP as an MMORPG could possibly be.
Without the basics of world building inherent to PvE content, a game can not be considered an MMORPG.
As it stands now, Ashes basically just meets that basic standard. Any less of a world, and the game would not be able to be considered an MMORPG.
Keep in mind, when I am talking about PvE, I am not talking about harvesting and crafting and such (the activities likely required to maintain a castle), I am talking about shit to kill.
See my post above yours here for an overview of the rest of my thoughts on the matter.
Suffice to say - the game needs a massive focus on PvE from what it has now. It doesn't need any changes to the PvP systems in place, however.
I am afraid I'm still unsure what you think Ashes is lacking in regards to PvE. What does this "more", this additional focus look like? Or do you mean that they should show more of what the PvE-side of the game has to offer?
In order tp attract a player that is primarily PvE focused to Ashes from another game, Ashes needs to offer a better PvE experience.
One of the key things (note - not the only thing) to this regard is guaranteed access to content - something Ashes currently has literally zero of right now.
Now, I am not suggesting any ways to achieve this - not in this thread at least. However, if a guild with the above PvE focus can play a game where they can have their pick of taking on any one of 15 relevant encounters on a given night, or a game where they may have a chance at fighting off others enough in order to be able to have a go at one encounter on any given night, which game do you think that guild will play?
Fact is, Ashes needs to actually go a little beyond other games in regards to PvE in order to attract these guilds - and so far it is sitting at having literally nothing.
It's hilarious how the only way you can be right is by creating an argument literally no one ever said, and replying to that made up argument lol
in which multiverse I ever said Ashes is moving too much towards PVE?
I said my concern is ashes CHANGING direction, that means I am Happy with the current direction and don't want it to change...... how do you from there to 'game is heading to PvE'...?
again, hilarious.
Cool, so, I misunderstood your factually incorrect and somewhat incoherent ramblings - that doesn't alter my point that the game needs to move more towards it's PvE content than it is now - though ideally without altering it's PvP - in order to deliver the PvX experience we were promised.
When you say more pve content you dont mean instanced content right.
Not necessarily.
It is one way they could go about it, but not the only way. Though as I said above, I am not going in to that in this thread - I have talked about it a lot on these forums in the past.
Well short form besides instanced content what would you want for more pve?
Two points with this. I am not talking about it in this thread - and it isn't a case of what I want, it is a case of what will get some PvE focused players in to the game.
You have guilds in Albion that never touched PVP the Trade Cartels barely do pvp just focus in crafting , economy and gathering if they need to do pvp probably they pay to other guilds because they are swimming in Silver , and you have other guilds just focused on the pve (ava raids) , yes they have the same risk the others but they adapt ... BDO then is an joke, you barely do any pvp there, the game is 98% pve grind with 2% of fighting with one guy for an grinding spot .
for this I'm simply going to reply with:
and I will leave it at that.
You couldn't be any more wrong, and I state that with no offense meant.
Ashes is aiming for something that the majority of the current MMORPG population hasn't experienced for over a decade. Being a Lineage 2 player myself, and keeping note of Steven''s big MMO inspirations, it's clear the direction and path he wants to take the game in. A game based around contested content and guild/alliance/party cooperation. I experienced this system in Lineage 2 and it was by far the best experience I've ever had in any MMO I've played, and that list is rather long. Being originally a more solo minded player, it broadened my horizons to a very large degree...As my fondest MMORPG memories come from the nights grinding with the friends I made in L2, the comradery in contested content, crafting, and assisting fellow guildies with their crafts and skill book acquisitions as we progressed together.
No game has every come close to deliver the experience that L2 gave, as the genre took a hard turn toward quick gratification with nearly instant dungeon queues, instances, solo tailored content, and group content being solely instanced boss encounters...Whereas in L2, our alliance had to fight or fend off other alliances for the unique loot from world bosses. It led to countless wars, fights in leveling/grinding grounds, and many nostalgic battles. Now just because I talk mostly of the contested content, this doesn't mean that the game was entirely PvP...If you weren't part of a big guild, you were most likely left alone the majority of the time, but it would mean you rule yourself out from the big epic bosses. Smaller guilds who weren't PvP focused would shift towards PvE grinding, crafting, economy, and comradery as the game was a huge grind.
L2 lasted for nearly 10 years as a sub model...The game had barely anything in terms of systems. Just an EXTREMELY long grind, flagging system, Karma (corruption) system, non-faction guild/alliance system, crafting, with a complete lack of any depth in quests...Yet it lasted this long and was cherished by many players. If a game with literally nothing in terms of systems could be this nostalgic to so many and last that long under a sub model, I'm excited to see what Ashes can improve upon that formula with it's plethora of systems, and the genre evolving node system. It's honestly set up for a grand experience if they can nail the combat which is the only weakness atm imo.
Overall though, don't knock it till you try it. Too many players are focused in the ways of WoW, FF14, and so forth in the form of instanced boss encounters. It's not a bad thing to try something different and see if it can change your perspective...
Considering how the majority of AAA MMORPG titles lately are failing so quickly after launch, or embracing pure p2w mechanics, it's time for a shift in ideology. If you really need the guild raid nights, sad to say this game will most likely not be for you, as it goes completely against that mentality and style of play. For example the cyclops dev update we just had, you would have to picture those type of encounters with the focus of keeping an eye around your surroundings for guilds looking to contest, while clearing the boss at the same time. The largest world bosses being massive alliances of 100+ players on each side, spoils to the victor, while they split into two fronts for defending and fighting said boss. The content will not be designed around complex PvE instanced content, leaving players waiting eagerly for the next expansion with not much to do in the meantime. Instead, the players themselves are the form of content generation thanks to the non--faction guild/alliance system...with the wars, castle sieges, and contested conflicts that arrive to fuel and shape the landscape of each individual server. The systems, crafting, raid bosses, sieges, literally everything is designed around grouping up with fellow players and having you band together. You literally could not solo in L2, if you did, it would put you very far behind, all classes were needed...Support, DPS, Healing, Tanks, etc. It's refreshing to see a game heading back in design direction to a more player cooperation approach. Even in a game that entwines PvE and PvP to this extent such as ashes, there is still plenty to satiate the PvE minded though... The economy, life skills, religion, crafting, etc...If L2 was able to do it with nothing in systems, then ashes will smash this part out of the park considering the depth we've seen.
Now there will be instanced content, but I'm guessing it will most likely be story progression. As I really don't see the reward of complicated instanced content if crafted and world boss loot will be the king of gear. Leaves very little incentive in rewards for complex instanced boss battles...But time will tell as more information is given to us and showcased by Steven and his team.
In terms of appealing to PvE players, I don't think it will be really needed. Everyone is looking for a new MMO to play, also with Alpha 2 being persistent, I believe the mass portion of players will be exposed to the game enough to make a clear assumption if they want to play it or not. The game will definitely improve as time goes on and more is added...I just hope people don't solidify their opinion and keep an open mind as the game truly is in development unlike regionalized alpha's we've seen from other MMO's.
To wrap up this long post, there is something severely lacking in the current landscape. The failed design ideology of current MMORPG's hasn't helped the genre, it has stagnated it. Would be a disservice to follow the same design directive that has led us into this hole. As a result, Ashes is aiming to bring something the current MMORPG gamer has been deprived of for so long.
The NA servers barely paid for themselves. The same was true for Archeage (though notibly not BDO). The games Korean market is what keeps them alive - does anyone actually and honestly think the way Trions Archeage went would warrant a licensed sequel (the game is a licensed IP, after all).
This is because that model of gaming is designed around people playing the game in a cafe with friends, rather than at home by themselves, but with in game friends as Western players play MMO's. Playing a game in this manner alters what you will and will not accept.
Trying to create a Korean MMO and expecting it to survive on a playerbase that consumes MMO's in a totally different manner is not sound business.
Ashes is differently going to have good pvp content i feel will be more meaningful than other games. If they have good meaningful pve content it can be the difference between a good mmorpg and god tier one. Since there is more content that is fun and challenge for players to do and contest over.
Pretty much all other mmorpgs that were more focused on PvP have a lack of actual good pve content and design to create it. Something which i hope is different with AoC as a pvp player. Helps build a more interesting world.
That being said my own indications with AoC seems to be they are having really cool pve content and that is their goal with the more we see every month. The storyline stuff that changes dungeons being one example I find very cool and around the bubble of PvE.
Cool, I am happy to address this post now. @Mag7spy
Instanced content is indeed one form of content that would satisfy the points I was making. However, if instanced content were added to Ashes for the sake of the content, as opposed to for the sake of the world/lore etc, then it would need to come with an increased PvP risk of some form.
One suggestion I have made in the past is that the better rewards for killing an instanced boss need to be transported from the location of the instance to the nearest metropolis (a metropolis nearby should be needed to unlock any raid content). Additionally, a world wide announcement of the kill would probably be in order - so as to alert everyone to the fact that you are running a caravan from that location to the metropolis. This should guarantee some PvP - and even better, it will have a totally different feel to it than just fighting over an encounter.
This isn't the only way additional PvP elements could be added to instanced PvE content, but it is one way. Additionally, instanced PvE content isn't the only way to guarantee access to content.
Another form of guaranteed content is forced spawn. Have a guild collect a given number of tokens of some form (it doesn't matter what, body parts, scroll fragments, it's all the same mechanically), and go to either a specific location, or any one of many locations and spawn an encounter. With this, the guild can control when (and potentially where) the encounter takes place.
Another way to guarantee content to people is to have so much open world content (due to both number of encounters and respawn time) that there is not going to be a shortage. I'm not advocating for this specific method, I am just stating that it exists as a method.
Indeed Lineage is a very successful IP in Korea. But you can't disregard the NA base entirely due to that. Lineage 2 came out in the same year was World of Warcraft. Which would greatly diminish any player base considering the blind loyalty blizzard fans have for their releases. We unfortunately don't have the metrics of sub count as they are not public, so can't draw any conclusions if it was profitable or not, as it would be purely
speculation without that data on hand. But you can't denounce the fact that it was successful as a sub model for almost 10 years in NA...I doubt they would keep the servers up for that long if they weren't profitable.
I didn't bring up Archeage for a reason, as what truly killed it wasn't the contested content, it was just pure greed as they broke the balance and potential of the game with predatory p2w. Something that is rampant in every Korean MMORPG now-a-days...Which is truly sad to say as I believe Korean MMORPG's offer something that NA ones just do not have.
The Korean lifestyle around gaming is indeed quite different. I believe using that as an example is a false way of looking at it. I doubt the mass majority of L2 players were all holed up in lan cafes in Korea (Was mostly Warcraft and Starcraft at the time). Considering alliance wars and what not would sport 100-200 people per side, organizing in such in a noisy environment and sheer scale would take up an entire cafe, that seems farsical to state such. Yes the game would of been played in gaming cafes, but I believe that's painting a picture too vividly and based on speculation.
In essence, Ashes is borrowing a very large portion from a couple Korean MMO's, specifically more so Lineage 2. But I don't see this as a bad thing. It's an MMO that has roots tied to old school Korean risk vs reward mentality, but with a twist combining it with NA MMO roots and design philosophies. We already see a massive interest in Ashes based solely around the design and principles the game is trying to create.
In terms of your last sentence...
No offense meant once again...But this is hardly in any form a Korean MMO, to state such is disingenuous and shows your hand. This game will never be like any of the themepark MMO's that we currently have. There is already a massive amount of interest in Ashes of Creation, as we have seen it grow over it's life time. Yes it has roots that came from the inspiration and nostalgia that Steven has experienced from a couple of Korean MMO's...But that doesn't mean it's a Korean MMO in entirely. What is and has been killing MMO's has been this lax and casual style that lacks any risk vs reward delivered with every new MMO. They literally have no substance to keep players invested after completing said PvE boss content, and fail miserably, or stagnate till a new expansion. L2 had none of this, and lasted for a decade as a sub model...That says a lot for a style of game that lacked any depth in systems compared to the plethora that AoC will be giving us built upon said style.
The amount of systems that are being developed for this game is truly insane by MMO standards. With the depth they are planning in animal husbandry, social organization, religions, freeholds, naval content, crafting and artisan classes, a gathering system with actual depth and limited resources. The Node system itself is a break through in fixing the problems of MMO's of old. Overall, with the careful thought and amount of systems being developed...There will be plenty to do.
The clear fact though, is large scale instanced PvE content that is super rewarding loot wise has no place in this game. It actually is counter productive and hurts this games main point and identity immensely. Stating they need to cater to this type of audience, which it's style has led to the position we are in, is honestly the wrong path to take. We shifted gears from MMO's of old, such as L2, Everquest, and so on...Games of their type that focused around community and cooperation...Once WoW was released, and we went on this band wagon of new MMO's trying to "Be the next WoW" and emulate their systems over the years, has led to the downfall of the genre along with P2W....Just as the course altered many years ago, a course correction is need. If you want to play a PvE centric MMORPG, there are plenty around, no need to taint this game and ruin its attempt for changing the landscape and giving a different experience than players are use to. It's good thing to try something different and be adventurous. I did nearly 20 years ago in L2, and glad to see that current players might be able to experience something similar.
First, back in 2004, Blizzard didn't have the fanatical fanbase that it has now. That fanbase is due to WoW, which blew up in popularity in early 2005 (Feburary and March, mostly).
However, L2 launched in 2003 in Korea. This means that the playerbase had the choice of a new game in November 2004, or a game with a years worth of polish. L2 had every advantage here, yet history tells us what way the playerbase went. The western audience saw the game and largely decided it wasnt for them.
Also, you may note that I didn't say the NA servers weren't profitable. I said they were barely paying for themselves. With the Korean market keeping the game in a somewhat state of development, running the NA servers bought in an additional few tens of thousands a year after expenses. As such, they were somewhat worth having, but they would not have been able to continue active development of the game on that.
As to Archeage, the changes they made to things like Thunderatruck Trees, and then further in to the general monetization of the game, these were all done after the game lost a massive chunk of its population. Thus loss happened 6 to 10 weeks after launch. Again, the western audience saw the game, and largely decided it wasnt for them (though I played it for 5 years or so).
By the time we got to where people were complaining about balance and such, the game had lost almost 75% of its launch day population. In the ways that matter, it is.
Keep in mind, you just finished saying that Ashes is borrowing heavily from L2, specifically the risk vs reward philosophies.
Now, I'm not saying those things need to change. What I am saying is that they exist, and the way Koreans consume MMO's (in cafes, with friends, even back in 2003 with L2 and earlier with the original Lineage), they are more forgiving of loss. When you are playing with tour friends, if you lose 10 PvP fights in a row, you open another beer and joke with your friends about how bad you are. It's like going bowling - you dont need to be good at it to have fun doing it with your friends.
In the west, it you lose 10 PvP fights in a row, especially in an open world game, you are logging off for the night - or potentially for good.
The other MAJOR difference between Korean and western (specifically BR and NA, but EU to a lesser extent), is the fact that there is a much higher percent of troll's outside of Korea, and those trolls are willing to go to much greater lengths. This was shown well in Archeage again, with most servers having days or weeks on end with people blocking bridges, preventing trade runs. XL ,were told about it, but refuses to believe people would spend their time in game doing that - because in their years of publishing games in Korea, they had literally never seen anything even close to it.
These differences in consumption need to be taken in to account in game design. Intrepid seem to have an idea if the troll aspect of this, but the other issue seems (from my perspective) to be completely missed by them.