💃 Dev Discussion #66 - Storytelling With Archetypes 🎶
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Dev Discussion - Storytelling With Archetypes
How would you like to see character Archetypes like the Bard be integrated into Ashes of Creation’s lore and storytelling to enrich world-building?
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Comments
Personally, I'd love if the Class quest was this huge chain, where your character is taken to representatives of all archetypes, experiences effects that those archetypes would provide you through their augments (i.e. the mage part of the quest would have a mage npc teleport somewhere, or smth like that), and learns the history of the first settlers and how the archetypical leaders used their skills to make Verra livable again.
Imo that would be the most immersive way to both tell the story of the world being repopulated and to explain to the player, through in-game means, what they could expect if they choose one of the archetypes as their secondary.
As for how it would integrate into world building, It'd be cool to see SOME kind of influence in the world for players choosing the main class they choose. Maybe we get more bard guild banners in the streets of the metropolis if there are more bard citizens of that node, or maybe there is some other way it would be represented, like an NPC in the Inn will have a recruitment message based on which class archetype is currently the Lowest across citizens of that node for example. Some kind of World enriching presence.
We already have so much representation for the Races in the way the towns and cities will be influenced, so it only makes sense to me that there would be a Minor influence for classes too!
I also would love to see some class abilities locked behind Lore quests. I know some people might not find that enjoyable, but in my opinion, it's always fun to EARN an ability. I know you guys were floating the idea around about having different classes have world effecting abilities for questing as well. (Clearing poison, unlocking doors, using specific magics for puzzles, pathfinding, ect...) I think it'd be cool if these abilities were behind a nice long quest chain or Lore related event. (Or maybe we just have to purchase them from a trainer) But having the ability to expand our usefulness to the party for group content through hard work sounds awesome. Obv we still don't want to let 1 character be able to do do EVERYTHING, but figured it was close enough to the topic at hand that I'd throw it out there.
In my mind, all of the returning races/archetypes are utter cowards who fled unlike The Steel Legion and those who were braver perished after the cowards fled. Somehow now, we have returned home with the exact same God's and Goddesses who were unable to do anything other than send cowards to a different world.
Thus, suspension of disbelief is impossible because the cowards are our toons and our toons will advance through the lore overcoming challenges which were originally the same challenges the cowards fled from.
They should also be able to tell the lore of the game in a simpler, more concise way, so that even those who skip the lore can appreciate it.
Why not, for example, when a bard enters a tarvern or other building, the bard character could inform of a certain guild or person's achievement, such as a word first or the capture of a castle or the destruction of a metropolis in the world.
I second having large class quests. Some of the more memorable parts of other games like WoW, brings people in the same class together too, feel more connected
A bard who can tell his own stories in taverns would be very nice roleplay wise. Of course, every action of our characters flows into the game and into the story, but I personally don't need class storytelling. Thank you
Our characters are a continuation of the techniques and powers passed down within the world. I think it's important to showcase that we're not the first to exist and are not the most important, we are just filling the role needed in our time just as those that came before us fulfilled their duty.
Beyond that, as the game evolves over time, maybe major lore beats could be turned into songs to be added as class quests as time goes on, allowing a bard player to travel the realm hearing all of the wonderful stories of things the players did.
How was the archetype innovated upon to allow the magic that the mage or summoner or priest uses?
Who are the big figures in history that experimented and allowed the current powers to be possible?
Some questions to consider.
I think making those in the lore part of the archetype system is pretty crucial to building some good class identity.
From there, while you learn about the skills and powers you can use as each archetype, you learn some of the history, "this great mage, who was the personal mage of king whatever, once upon a time did this and invented this system of magic, which has been innovated upon to this day". On top of that, they build closer connections to some part of the lore because it gains in importance due to their archetype.
As a summoner main:
The summons can tell a lot of story, I hope the summons arent just random beasts and ghosts and spirits and monsters that dont exist in the world. I'd like them to be unique enough so its not just "a boar that you find anywhere" but still ingrained in the world. Perhaps the higher level you reach, the more ancient the spirits that one of the subarchetypes can summon. Perhaps they gain sentience at some point, can they tell stories? Give you information about a dungeon you otherwise couldnt have?
Some interesting stuff you could explore. Not saying this is definitely the best route but exploring it could yield some interesting results.
As a rogue main:
Same idea but different execution. You can probably tell a lot about a culture's character by the way their dungeons are built, how many traps you need to disarm, where the secret passageways are, what all they kept hidden behind locks.
Perhaps some people are less trusting, their dungeons much fiercer and more dangerous, giving the rogue more work to safely get their group through. Perhaps other cultures are more straightforward, honest and steadfast, relying on brute strength like a warrior to get through certain gates or doors instead of the fine skills of a rogue.
Bard in particular has a very large role to play when it comes to the lore of the world, historically nomadic story tellers were how the generations passed down their wisdom in story/song/play form to teach others as they journey across the land and acquire even more stories/knowledge. The Bard has a pivotal role, they can teach about cultures and peoples from distant lands that you might end up adventuring with and maybe you learned just enough to not make a fool of yourself. Or the opposite can be true, maybe you enact a "custom" that you learned from a bard and it turns out its extremely offensive in their culture.
Each archetype was born from a need based on the world around them, and then said archetypes travel around adventuring to fulfill that role, Imagine a fighter that finds a town in need of help removing a giant boulder blocking a canyon path to the village, she they break out their giant maul and smash the boulder to bits. Same scenario with a mage instead using wind magic to throw the boulder into the distance where it squishes some poor traveler that has to be saved by a cleric. Or a rogue finding the perfect opportunity to make a little money since nobody is going to be able to follow them when the skedaddle with their ill gotten goods, at least until they run into the Ranger/Bounty hunter.
The archetypes are a part of the world building.
Additionally, I feel that the Cleric class should be intrinsically linked to the divine powers of the seven gods and goddesses. The class's primary mechanic, "Divine Power," naturally aligns with this concept. This connection could add depth and immersion to the role, emphasizing the divine nature of their abilities. This divine connection could be woven into their abilities, quests, and interactions with the world.
Moreover, having NPCs comment on or acknowledge our race and Archetype adds a layer of realism and immersion. It makes the world feel more responsive and alive, enhancing the overall experience.
Another significant aspect is utilizing the Archetype's utility skills to uncover hidden elements in the world, which can tell a story through environmental clues rather than explicit cutscenes or dialogue. For instance, lifting an illusion or unlocking a hidden room might reveal a fallen soldier from before the fall, writing a final goodbye letter to his daughter. Later, players could find an NPC descendant of that daughter, providing closure and hearing her story. If they were elves, perhaps players could even meet the elderly daughter or one of her descendants. Or imagine discovering the skeleton of a knight next to a downed dragon or ancient with a sword through its skull, narrating the Fall of Verra through environmental storytelling. These elements could seamlessly tie into other story plots as we progress in our journey.
Archetypes can also enhance role-playing and storytelling moments. For instance, a Fighter might train with soldiers, a Cleric could heal the sick and wounded, or a Bard might play in the streets, eventually attracting a crowd of NPC children. These interactions could create vibrant, immersive experiences that deepen our connection to the world.
I also support the idea of long, involved class quests. These quests should encourage players to explore the world, learn about the history of their class, and reward players in some way for their efforts. Such quests could add significant value and depth to the player experience, making the journey of mastering a class feel meaningful and fulfilling.
This all being said however this is an MMORPG and these shouldn't be done with single player thoughts in mind, I should go to my friends and we should help each other progress down our class quest to grow stronger.
Quest Assistance: Bards could be invaluable for players on lore-related quests. Imagine needing to gather and interpret scattered bits of lore. This could involve finding fragments of old ballads, solving poetic riddles, or collecting magical instruments. A Bard's expertise would be crucial in deciphering these pieces, helping players progress in their quests.
Dear Ashes of Creation Development Team,
I recently reviewed the Bard archetype showcase and have some thoughts on enhancing the archetype's immersion and connection to the game's lore.
Key Points of Feedback:
Vocal Hymns and Melodies:
- For players envisioning their bards as singers, it's crucial to hear their characters sing. Currently, abilities representing sung songs use a harp sound, which lacks the emotional impact and passion that vocal performances can provide.
- Implement an option for vocal performances, allowing players to select a singing voice for their bard. This would add personalization and immersion, making the archetype feel more dynamic and expressive.
Sound Toggle Feature:Voice and Music Customization:
- Upon creating a bard, players could choose a voice and a singing voice selection. These choices could tie into racial music themes and allow for duets if multiple bards are in a party.
- Imagine a Dünir dwarf singing an epic ballad similar to "Misty Mountain Cold" from The Hobbit or a Niküa dwarf performing a rhythmic song akin to "You're Welcome" from Moana. Each race could have multiple vocal options and unique songs learned from class teachers or discovered while exploring ancient civilizations.
Musical Inspirations and Examples:Integration into Lore and Storytelling:
In conclusion, adding vocal performances and music customization to the Bard archetype would significantly enhance player experience and immersion. Thank you for considering this feedback, and I look forward to seeing how the Bard archetype evolves.
Sincerely,
Kevin (Kalnazzar Wrin)
1. Most NPCs should have visible archetypes or classes that affect their dialogue and behaviour.
2. Some thought should be put into how those NPCs interact with others, the world, and PCs, based on those known Archetypes.
3. Some storylines/quests should have 'slots' that are filled by the nearest reasonable NPC with the correct Archetype/Class, i.e. there's a quest that starts with a Bard because it's that type of story, so no matter how the server develops, players know to find a Bard NPC in a City Node to see if that quest is available to them.
4. Different Archetypes could have slightly different ways of interacting with certain objects or micro-PoI, nothing too fancy (not like Neverwinter where you just carry around Class-specific tools to poke differently named treasure boxes), nothing too absolutely required
5. Different Archetype NPCs can expand on this also by offering different small services that you associate with them.
6. I'd also suggest some Archetype-Augments being locked behind questlines, but I'd bet the more devoted audience of the game in the longer term will just find this annoying so maybe not.
7. Some stories could also have 'slots' like this, particularly story Arcs that have a 'race' to be the first party to clear something. Assuming that the party managed to have all 8 Archetypes, as intended, when they clear it, the story/historical record could be written with a story-role for each Archetype, and then the player of that Archetype gets their name inserted into the historical story record thing. Obv be careful with this, since it pushes on people's RP, but I bet y'all have writers who have this skill.
I'd say the most important thing is to make it as clear as possible, which is somewhat harder for Ashes because it can't necessarily count on people being able to recognize an NPCs Archetype by their gear in any way.
Obviously there's the other standard approach of getting Allied NPCs involved in combat so they can show off their moves and help with the storytelling in that regard, which serves the alternate purpose of sometimes giving players the option to fill a specific storyline slot in an NPC group as a sorta-solo activity. In contrast to most other 'You are the main character' games, it could be a bit better tuned so that the thing you're required to do is relative to your Archetype. Work those in-engine cutscenes, etc.
Games (I hope) are filled with historical or specialized stories with Archetype/Class/Job relations that involve this, the above is all just 'extend this a little more' which is something a lot (I hope) of games do but some don't anymore.
What I don't want, despite my love of 'important NPC who pulls you in to do some things they don't have time for', is the Neverwinter style of it where the only way you know about an NPCs Archetype/Role is when they introduce themselves and then maybe you read up in their history somewhere.
Nearly every NPC that I consider properly memorable across all the MMOs I play, I've seen them fight, or I know how they fight, or I at least know how/why they don't fight. It doesn't have to be 'fight', it can ofc just be 'live', as long as they actually show it, which, in the case of this question, should be through their Archetype.
Hope that all even remotely touched on what the team is actually trying to ask.
Short Example:
Mage - Trying to achievie specific place with his Blink ability
Bard - Trying to Heal certein NPC via his songs (while NPC are trying to walk from each other)
Summoner - Trying to complete some puzzle only with his summons.
Etc, something what would feel like only your Archetype can do this certain quest and you will feel the story of your Archetype.
When lore is presented through quests, you should be learning by the way you are treated by the NPCs. How they talk to you, how they behave towards you. Basically the "show don't tell" method as much as possible. Let the player (mostly) figure out how the game looks at your archetype from a lore perspective.
Unlocking parts of the archetype through specific "class quests" tailored to the theme of the archetype always felt like it enhanced the flavor of the character. I think this is a good way to mix gameplay with the lore.
Legends and myths
Small pieces of lore scattered through Verra in the form of stone inscriptions, dug up trinkets, items, gear or statues containing a short pieces of information about a legendary or mythical figure. Hinting towards them or talking about them (and one is suddenly still alive and a secret boss! WOW! NOWAY). People interested in the lore can Opt-in by reading them. This isn't specific to the players' archetype, but it can still offer a way to tell interesting stories.
I love this way of connect-the-dots lore that soulslike games tend to have. Another one is books from BG3. I spent way too much time reading those and I'm normally not a 'lore guy'. It being bite-sized helps massively for my (our) ADHD brains.
but what is most important for me is that they don't interfere with the games audio, making it stand our like a sore thumb, also please let us be able to mute bard music, replacing it with some simple queue, this is incase they are not blending in.
But I absolutely want the Archetypes to deliver us unique ways of storytelling. This could be achieved through different interactions with NPCs or objects, enabled specifically to each Archetype. Allowing us to find connecting pieces of information from before/during the Apocalypse.
For example:
A vision that delivers different information based on your Archetype.
A rogue unlocking or finding passage to a hidden place/room.
A mage finding (invisible) magical runes.
A bard understanding the meaning of an art piece(poem, painting,etc).
Different dialogue options on a NPC.
And so on.
For instance NPC's reacting to a nearby Bard playing music, or maybe even something more complex where enemies would patrol in the direction music is being played.
Potentially enabling safe pulls from around a corner in enclosed spaces, or packed outdoor areas.
good stuff. I appreciated your views on this game.
So far behind what schedule? Is that timeline on the wiki or something, i have not seen it?
Maybe some extra exposition from like a Bard-only quest line or something else like that? Bards should be storytellers, and the stories they're telling should hold some actual relevance to the in-game lore.
The other classes though, I'm not sure. I would hope the more "magical" classes like Mage and Cleric and even Summoners get some type of tie in to things like Summoning creatures from other planes of existence, and then we get to learn about those planes. Or maybe Clerics have some special connection with the Goddess of Creation herself that allows them to use creation magic, etc. Things like that would be neat, but Bards absolutely need to be telling stories about Verra and even Sanctus.
I'll tend to the flame, you can worship the ashes.
Example if you choose Bard/Cook/Entertainer, if you have backgrounds (Which would be awesome), then the player should have quests that revolve around tavern crawls, drunken nights that lead to a grand song creations and having to boost fellow players morale/stats either in dungeons or just world type buffs only they can provide.
Not everything has to be a kill/collect quest. In fact, I would love to have alts to just play as an NPC in town being a craftsmen with a bit of a love problem. Finding a mate maybe an interesting side quest!
The key is to make the quests actual stories. Not grand unbelievable stories, just interesting. The bard could start out being thrown into the streets after an awful performance. They have to build up their reputation around town first. Helping with chores to pay rent then practicing song as they get chances. Soon they become good enough to make a comeback. Sucess! Now on to the next village where you find a theater this time with a bit of a problem, they need help with....
The good thing about class quests or crafting is it can be ever evolving. At launch people don't expect 100 hours of each class story but just something interesting to make us love the character. The choice should be there to play at least two types of characters for each class if not three example Mad/Funny/Serious or Sad/Proud/Arrogant. Adds more flavor.
I would like to see your characters word effect the physical environment around them. In our real world we can now prove words having a physical effect, such as dr. Masaru Emoto and their work with talking to water, instant freezing it, then looking under a microscope at it. Words and music can effect the growth of plants and crops. People have water in them, words effect other people, or the frequency / intent somehow gets across and causes real world effects.
I would like to see Bard be able to nurture the environment with music to a greater extent than most archetypes, because music power. Perhaps a Bard can sing in town to encourage builders?
1. Deep Lore Integration:
Each archetype should have a rich backstory tied into the world’s lore.
2. Dynamic Interactions:
NPCs and the environment should react differently based on the player's archetype.
3. Customization and Personalization:
Allow players to shape their character’s story and abilities for a more immersive experience.
4. Environmental Storytelling:
Use environmental clues and interactions unique to each archetype to uncover hidden elements of the world's lore.
These elements would greatly enhance the immersion and impact of choosing an archetype.
[*] I would like to see Archetypes have unique dialogue options in quests, even if just for flavor so I can lean into the RP element in my own questing experience. Similarly, having NPCs react differently to your Archetype, maybe even your chosen race also.
[*] Bard Specific, having them able to play songs related to major events/story arcs, that are only unlocked upon interacting with the quest/story arc - a way to re-live and tell the major tales of a server. If a bard is playing a specific song on an instrument and a fellow bard also starts, they harmonize to play the song together.
[*] Archetype specific interactions with the environment that have PVE benefits, Rogue's lockpicking doors, clerics healing a wounded NPC to aid you in a quest, A Bard diffusing a situation with a soothing song, etc - These interactions make Archetypes feel unique and special, and Verra feel alive. This also encouraged diversity in group play.
[*] I'd like to see 'famous/notable' Archetypes built into the lore an iconic shield named after a brave tank, the lore of an epic cleric who turned the tide of battle in a famous area/point of interest, etc, - places, items, events and past deeds in which players can identify with.
[*] Archetype specific quests as many have suggested, both minor Archetype quests to learn key and iconic abilities (that can server as a tutorial), as well as epic, grand and challenging quests for iconic class items. Classic WoW did this well, they had class specific epic weapons, mounts (warlock/pally), even different spell effects (warlock green/fel fire) later on.
I want my Archetype choice to matter in my experience with the lore in Verra. I want to feel unique not only in the abilities, role and contribution to group play, but feel like I can identify as a Tank, Bard, Ranger etc in my player experience.
It's best if your story is simply carved by your actions, whatever you do is your story. AoC should have let people pick their own goals and work towards achieving them. The system should then throw some curveballs at them, trying to make the players fail or get odd results (Bizarro World style). After many months, we’d see what happened, and the story of Verra would evolve based on the players' failures and successes. Please don’t create another dull story arc like other games, where players just grind through quests and hit the SKIP button when cutscenes come.
No one really cares about the lore itself, it's just a perfume shop people visit once in a decade. Lore is only fun if you can use it to justify why you're attacking your enemies and tell them to their faces: "This is why I killed you!!!"
So, with this, each server will have a different story, the world events will be there but the results wll not be exactly the same.
What schedule do you refer to? Lore is locked until launch.