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Re: Fixing the Class system
LMFAOAnd your example is emblematic of lazy thinking.
I can no longer take anything you say seriously. Mr. Pot.
(Obviously, if you can blink past Walls and other obstacles, you have several escape paths.)
Dygz
1
Re: Fixing the Class system
You lost me.
And I'm not sure what you mean by "only change it 10%".
If a Mage Teleport applied to my Fighter's Rush allows me to blink past a Wall that would otherwise impede me, that significantly changes my tactics. A quantifier like 10% seems to be meaningless.
I'd definitely prefer some other Mage-like stuff to place on my other Active Skills, than a Teleport.
I dunno how a Teleport Augment is supposed to help augment my Battle Cry.
Your being willfully ignorant if you can't understand this.
And your example is emblematic of lazy thinking. You have to postulate a SPECIFC enemy countermeasure produced by 1 opposing archetype for limited time under which a teleport augmented Blitz would seemingly play ANY different then the base Blitz. To call this reaching is an understatement.
No player worth their salt would call that a meaningful change to tactics let alone playstyle because once you think about it for more then a second you remember the barrier is still present and your now trapped and cut off from team mates so in even in your hypothetical 90% of the time you ain't gonna teleport through said wall because you have no escape path. Your still a Fighter with a gap closer which is gonna feel exactly the same as every other fighter, that's what 10% change is, something you don't even need to relearn or alter your play around.
But Fighter already has two gap closers, one that explicitly goes over obstacles and one that lunges forward.
If those are also 'tactically the same thing', then there's really not much more than can happen. You'd just end up going back to super simplistic gameplay if you stop taking the nuances like 'goes over walls and ground hazards' into account.
I'm no fan of that example from Steven either, but if we just discount the difference between two skills that both gap close but differently, then we might as well just downgrade all expectations of all the combat.
Azherae
1
Re: Fixing the Class system
You lost me.Basically I would rather see 1 good solid augment that radically changes playstyle, then 4 bland flavor choices which don't change playstyle and tactics. One augment which changes your kit 40% is better then 4 choices with each change it only 10%.
And I'm not sure what you mean by "only change it 10%".
If a Mage Teleport applied to my Fighter's Rush allows me to blink past a Wall that would otherwise impede me, that significantly changes my tactics. A quantifier like 10% seems to be meaningless.
I'd definitely prefer some other Mage-like stuff to place on my other Active Skills, than a Teleport.
I dunno how a Teleport Augment is supposed to help augment my Battle Cry.
I don't know where you got that tradeoff idea; nor "DEEP" Augments.Basically we have the classic tradeoff dillema, their are three things, DEEP Augments, MANY Augments and GAME DELIVERED PRE 2030, Pick two. And I pick Deep and ontime while jetesoning the many. If your priorities are different then say so, but don't pretend all three are going to be delivered at the rate things are going.
We'll have to test it and see.
Dygz
1
Re: Fixing the Class system
Don't we have that same question with Primary Archetype and Active Skills?RocketFarmer wrote: »What else other than augments make that class work?
It's a significant adjustment to existing Primary Archetype Active Skills; not really a swap.RocketFarmer wrote: »Do they present some sort of swap out of the primary archetype abilities with abilities in the theme of the class?
I think we should expect Classes to be represented in Ashes lore.RocketFarmer wrote: »Is it a lore based difference?
Depends on what you mean by new option.RocketFarmer wrote: »Do new options open up for your character build out when you enter your class?
Because if a Fighter applies a Mage Teleport Augment to their Rush Active Skill, they will then have the option to blink past an obstacle, like a Wall, which would otherwise impede the Rush.
Dygz
1
Re: Fixing the Class system
I mean... D&D would call it 8 Classes and 64 Sub-Classes.I'm a backer and from the start I didn't think 64 classes was possible. I would be impressed with 14-16 classes. That more then most MMOs. Questioning if there is real validity here is not outside the realm reasonable. Most people outside this forum thinks this part of the game seems hinky. I'm shocked more people are not asking more questions.
I dunno why you would think 64 "Sub-Classes" is not possible.
Dygz
1
Re: Fixing the Class system
RocketFarmer wrote: »Well this topic blew up fast.
While my point was it isn’t broken, yet, what will Intrepid do with these “classes” beyond the augments?
They’ve got 64 somewhat cool sounding class names. What else other than augments make that class work?
Do they present some sort of swap out of the primary archetype abilities with abilities in the theme of the class?
Is it a lore based difference?
Do new options open up for your character build out when you enter your class?
It basically can't be the latter two, because even if there is a cost to respec, you can still do it without a huge conceptual change (so far as we've been told).
So if I can be a Shadow Disciple today and an Oracle tomorrow, any decisions I make about it have to be based on my build, playstyle, and other similar choices.
I could see a style of development where certain Social Org augments or NPC interactions are different or 'don't work' if you're not the exact right class, but even this would get gamed somewhat. I could 'respec to Oracle just to progress a quest' for example, in that scenario.
Azherae
1
Re: Fixing the Class system
Ahhhh, and there you go. What they want and what I want are completely different things. I want to test A2 and give feedback to Intrepid to make the best Ashes Ashes can be. And permanently existing on the forums lets me do thatGeorge_Black wrote: »I know these people will work hard to get what they want from life.
Re: Fixing the Class system
George_Black wrote: »Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »You do realize that I'm gonna be the most active poster there as well, right? You're not escaping from me, GeorgeGeorge_Black wrote: »I'd wait for the locked A2 forum section and make your post there to talk with actual testers, not people killing time online, looking for petty arguments.
You should have other priorities in your life in your situation.
This makes no sense to the people that paid for alpha test, of course they are going to be talking a lot and giving feedback.
Mag7spy
1
Re: Fixing the Class system
AirborneBerserker wrote: »George_Black wrote: »AirborneBerserker wrote: »The 'Design' consists of two parts, an engine that looks capable of any alteration imaginable and a second Separate set of intentions on how to utilize that to alter skills, that intent is indicated by the examples that have been given and THIS is what looks to be underwhelming. Players have every right to say that this would be inadequate to meet their expectations, players have expectations which they organically bring to any game and which are not going to just go away because the design offers less.
While this is mostly right. The design also includes the amount of time to level (200-300 hours to max level), How people interact with each other (PvP always on). Diversity of playstyle (can people play the thing they want). Diversity of roles (1 for Healer and Tank). How many abilities each base class will have (35-40). Among many other things.
The Irony is I actually understand the system better then they do because they're thinking of the system in a vacuum rather then how all the other systems will pressure people and interact with the class system, and they aren't thinking about how important the psychological aspect of having fun is when people are doing something that is hard, or boring.
So now I'm probably going to have to make another post fully explaining why there IS a problem even though i figured most people that have been on here could probably see that given I've only been following the game for a little over a month now.
At this point I wouldn't bother.
I'd wait for the locked A2 forum section to talk with actual testers, not people killing time online, looking for petty arguments.
No no, this is helpful for me and of all the people that need to realize there is a problem THESE are the people to talk to. The testers will probably just nod in agreement. The devs, I'm sure, have already noticed what I'm talking about.
Well, don't keep us waiting, tell us what is the problem.
Is it the fact that you think half of the subclasses will be useless, and that meta will push people into 1-2 obvious choices per class? Because we simply don't know that this is going to be true.
Is it just the fact that you think augments will not be enough to create unique feeling classes? Because again, we don't know that, until we see Intrepid's implementation of this system.
Or, is it just the fact that each class combination will get it's own unique name, and people might be baited into thinking it will be whole another class with whole other set of abilities?
Idk, these 2 comments above sound reeeeally pretentious.
I'm a backer and from the start I didn't think 64 classes was possible. I would be impressed with 14-16 classes. That more then most MMOs. Questioning if there is real validity here is not outside the realm reasonable. Most people outside this forum thinks this part of the game seems hinky. I'm shocked more people are not asking more questions.
This isn't very valid, what you are experience is over hype, and increasing your expectations above any realistic setting.
A game being released without all the information talked about it, people would accept things as they are and there wouldn't be a issue for the masses about whatever the class names are.
The issue starts when people again are over hyping thing, which is more of inward issue per person. IF people want to fill in blanks with their own head cannon, everything can theory craft that is fine. When you start turning theory craft into saying its a issue with the game becomes the actual issue.
Mag7spy
1